'I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay'...

[Nige321]

Expensive rant... (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/im-helicopter-here-costs-550-17542667)

A high-flying managing director has been fined £1,600 after he subjected a female air traffic controller to a vitriolic mid-air rant whilst attempting to land his private helicopter on an airfield.

Wealthy businessman Joel Tobias, 52, had been flying his wife and family to the Lancashire seaside but fell foul of Andrea Tolley when he radio-ed in demanding he be able to land at Blackpool Airport.

Miss Tolley had not been aware of the incoming flight yet when she tried to ask Tobias to wait.

He began berating her over the airwaves claiming she had failed to return earlier messages.

During an angry exchange on frequency 119.950MHz, Tobias - who also runs an Aston Martin car and a motorbike - told Miss Tolley he wanted her name and raged: ''I'll be putting a complaint in.

''Your job is actually to take calls from aircraft and not have two-way chats with other aircraft asking how their day's going and how fun it is.

''I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay, and I've waited ten minutes for you to answer the call - it's absolutely appalling.''

[Bravo73]

To the OP, are you aware of this regular poster to Rotorheads?

JTobias

[Nige321]

To the OP, are you aware of this regular poster to Rotorheads?

JTobias

No, why...?
His last post here was 2 weeks before his rant, silent since.
Think he'll rock up and comment??!:}

[Nige321]

His profile here has a link:
Jetbox (http://www.jetbox.wordpress.com)
The link leads to this, good ad for a Cyber Security expert...! :p

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1878x758/screenshot_2020_01_10_at_11_20_46_121c3bdc72dee9922843017791 77d21be5137e87.jpg

[cattletruck]

Wealthy businessman Joel Tobias

JT himself has regularly stated on this forum that he is not all that wealthy, which could probably explain why he got so upset. But rules are rules no matter how deep or shallow your pockets are.

Lifted off a trolley in a 350 once only to be left hanging when a learner plank driver dawdled onto the taxiway in the direction I needed to go and motored along at a snails pace. I was counting the dollars being burnt by the second in my head - but what can you do?

[nigelh]

I am not taking sides but it does seem to me that he is making a fair point . That is not exactly Heathrow and sometimes it feels like ATC are just trying to be awkward with Helicopters!! The busier the airspace generally the better the ATC perform .... look at how efficient Heathrow are at getting traffic across their two actives . I have had to wait 10 mins at a provincial airport for a landing jet when I could have taken off directly away from the runway .... sometimes it may just be ignorance on their part of how Helicopters work .

[Espada III]

As I know him, he is a very pleasant person who helps people out when they are in a mess. If he was with his wife and family he would not rant unless he had a good reason.

[Bell_ringer]

There’s never a reason to rant on the radio, you’re just making it more difficult for everyone else.
Land, walk to the tower and have a chat.
anything else is just being a tw@t.

[212man]

There’s never a reason to rant on the radio, you’re just making it more difficult for everyone else.

Exactly - bite your tongue/count to ten and then transmit concisely and professionally and then bring any grievance up later by phone.

[Bell_ringer]

See the mail has caught up
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7872523/Manchester-businessman-fined-ranting-female-air-traffic-controller.html

[helimutt]

Good advice to just bide your time and wait to go and talk to them in person once you land. You can simply ask for the manager and politely request to listen to the tapes I guess. If there is a disagreement then the truth is all recorded. Getting arsey with ATC certainly won’t help you at all.

[nigelh]

I have on more than one occasion argued with ATC about a clearance and eventually won !
If they give you a departure clearing via a point which is completely in the wrong direction and there is no reason for it I don’t see any merit in blindly following orders . ( maybe that’s a good reason for me not going through the mil route !! )

[helimutt]

I have on more than one occasion argued with ATC about a clearance and eventually won !
If they give you a departure clearing via a point which is completely in the wrong direction and there is no reason for it I don’t see any merit in blindly following orders . ( maybe that’s a good reason for me not going through the mil route !! )


all well and good but you don’t then just go where you fancy because it doesn’t suit you. You request clearance and maybe even state your reason why. It’s not rocket science. But to just enter an ATZ without permission, or ignore an ATC instruction within a zone? then surely you can expect some come-back and hardly be surprised.

[Bell_ringer]

Nigel, it’s one thing not complying to a poor instruction. It’s another losing your rag because your approach in an obsolete Flying bus wasn’t as expeditious as you’d hoped.
if the cost of the delay is material to you, rather purchase a super cub or R22.
There’s no excuse for a tantrum.
Delays occur, sometimes because they need to other times not.

[nigelh]

Helimutt ...... yes of course I agree . I was not aware of that other part of the story !! In general though we are very lucky to have such unrestricted airspace ( for now ) and helpful ATC . I am guessing he must have been stressed maybe due to fuel or weather issue .... it can be frustrating sometimes!!

[nomorehelosforme]

BBC have also got the story

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-51063010

[visibility3miles]

Bell Ringer
The first picture in the Mail shows him in front of a helicopter with a gun in one hand and a bottle of champagne tucked under the other arm.

Does he plan to go hunting, drink the champagne, then fly away?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x633/image_b848df219fed5c982f557507777775e5fa458e6b.png

[Bell_ringer]

Bell Ringer
The first picture in the Mail shows him in front of a helicopter with a gun in one hand and a bottle of champagne tucked under the other arm.

Does he plan to go hunting, drink the champagne, then fly away?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x633/image_b848df219fed5c982f557507777775e5fa458e6b.png

I thought he shot the jetbox, then intended starting it with the cork discharge.

[chopjock]

But to just enter an ATZ without permission, or ignore an ATC instruction within a zone? then surely you can expect some come-back and hardly be surprised.

You do know you don't always need permission to enter an ATZ right?

[315B]

Thread is starting to deviate into suggestions the pilot may be inclined to fly under the influence are absurd.
Perhaps the thread starter has an axe to grind with the gentleman involved.. seems that way.

[Helibabe1]

There’s two sides to consider with this story guys.. it’s not all it seems

JTobias is a personal helicopter pilot friend of mine and anybody who knows him, knows how utterly professional he is in the air and most pilots will never obtain the experience he already has. The articles do not portray the knowledgeable, skillful, generous and charitable man we all know. His personal success is unrelated and nobody’s business but he is undisputably professional there too and any suggestion otherwise is ludicrous.

His silence is merely because of the regulatory procedure pending as I am sure you can appreciate, that is his main priority and concern.

The case covers what was a 15-20 sec agitated incident with a controller which we’ve all had at one time or another, and by no means describes the professionalism he exhibits normally. He has had no problem whatsoever apologising and admitting what he did was out of character and wrong, but it happened. End of.

However, you should also understand that there was an unreported and significant run up to the ‘rant’ being sensationalised in the press, which inevitably lead to the nature of the call. There was absolutely no confliction with other aircraft either.. Blackpool isn’t exactly Gatwick!

The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops, and maybe the real world of ATC may be too stressful for her to cope with. She should try a bird-strike in a helicopter!

This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…!

[malabo]

Many of us are professional pilots with someone else footing the bill. When it comes out of your own pocket you look at things differently. Was on an IFR checkride in a 206 and asked the pilot what speed he was going to fly the ILS, “why, Vne of course” he replied, “unless you want to pitch in for the rental”. All of us share JTobias sentiment to avoid unnecessary costs from oblivious ATC.

[Hedski]

You do know you don't always need permission to enter an ATZ right?

Rule 11 not apply to ATZ entry?

[Nige321]

Thread is starting to deviate into suggestions the pilot may be inclined to fly under the influence are absurd.
Perhaps the thread starter has an axe to grind with the gentleman involved.. seems that way.
Err... No. Really...? :yuk:
It's a story of interest to this forum I thought, it popped up in my news feed.
Please cite where I've made 'suggestions the pilot may be inclined to fly under the influence'...

[Nige321]

There’s two sides to consider with this story guys.. it’s not all it seems

JTobias is a personal helicopter pilot friend of mine and anybody who knows him, knows how utterly professional he is in the air and most pilots will never obtain the experience he already has. The articles do not portray the knowledgeable, skillful, generous and charitable man we all know. His personal success is unrelated and nobody’s business but he is undisputably professional there too and any suggestion otherwise is ludicrous.

His silence is merely because of the regulatory procedure pending as I am sure you can appreciate, that is his main priority and concern.

The case covers what was a 15-20 sec agitated incident with a controller which we’ve all had at one time or another, and by no means describes the professionalism he exhibits normally. He has had no problem whatsoever apologising and admitting what he did was out of character and wrong, but it happened. End of.

However, you should also understand that there was an unreported and significant run up to the ‘rant’ being sensationalised in the press, which inevitably lead to the nature of the call. There was absolutely no confliction with other aircraft either.. Blackpool isn’t exactly Gatwick!

The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops, and maybe the real world of ATC may be too stressful for her to cope with. She should try a bird-strike in a helicopter!

This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…!
Good evening Mrs Tobias...! :ok::}:D

[Helibabe1]

Haha I wish! But nice try.. :=

[Helibabe1]

From what I can vaguely remember ,- if I have my date or rough estimate correct as I had the airband radio on at work , the lady in ATC was working hard to assist a student pilot who was lost and disorientated and being shepherded back to Blackpool by another light aircraft from the north prior to entering the ATZ , workload was high , the student was under stress and a possibly a contributing factor . No need for anyone to rant on the radio at ATC. Shutdown and talk properly post event. To make a comment over the air about the helicopter operating cost is not required under the circumstances ....its an expensive form of transport - no need to be whining about it , sounds like a knee jerk comment at the time in the heat of the moment.

You remember a random ATC call from back in July 2019.. wow. Your facts are incorrect Sir

[Okihara]

Why does it matter for us know that the ATC controller was a woman?

[chopjock]

Rule 11 not apply to ATZ entry?

(3) If the aerodrome has an air traffic control unit the commander must obtain the permission of that unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone.

There are more ATZs that do not have ATC than do have ATC...

[212man]

The case covers what was a 15-20 sec agitated incident with a controller which we’ve all had at one time or another,

no, not in over 11,000 hours on 4 continents have I lost control on the radio. I may have sworn a bit with the PTT button not pressed in between calls a few times!

[jeepys]

Helibabe 1,

This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…!

If the infringement was that small and perhaps insignificant to you then surely it shouldn’t have been a big deal and big cost (£20) to go around it?

I have spent a fair bit of time in the air myself and experienced good, bad and maybe the ugly controllers but if I had spoken to a controller like that I would have to have a word with myself.

Helicopters don’t have a great name in this industry as it is and we don’t need bad press such as this.

[Helibabe1]

no, not in over 11,000 hours on 4 continents have I lost control on the radio. I may have sworn a bit with the PTT button not pressed in between calls a few times!

Have you heard the recording? I have. There was no loss of control, no swearing, no obscenities, raised voices etc. Give yourself a badge and dont believe everything you read

[jeepys]

So is the reported conversation not accurate?

[jeepys]

Helibabe,

can you answer my questions please? Surely your job is to answer my questions first before replying to somebody else. I am sitting here charging the client £600 p/h waiting for your response.
What’s your name, this really isn’t good enough.

[jumpseater]

Have you heard the recording? I have. There was no loss of control, no swearing, no obscenities, raised voices etc. Give yourself a badge and dont believe everything you read

How have you heard the recording? The ‘tapes’ would have been impounded once the event had gone ‘official’ the controller wouldn’t have access to them, and only the investigation team would prior to the prosecution. The pilot pleaded guilty by letter so he didn’t attend any court to hear any evidence that may have been played there.

So so how did you hear the recording?

[Helibabe1]

Helibabe 1,

This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…!

If the infringement was that small and perhaps insignificant to you then surely it shouldn’t have been a big deal and big cost (£20) to go around it?

I have spent a fair bit of time in the air myself and experienced good, bad and maybe the ugly controllers but if I had spoken to a controller like that I would have to have a word with myself.

Helicopters don’t have a great name in this industry as it is and we don’t need bad press such as this.

Trust me, cost has nothing to do with it. The reference to money was an attempt to put the time waiting in a helicopter into prospective as opposed to waiting in a fixed wing aircraft, nothing else. I'm not sure why helicopters have bad name?
Really, there is no news here other than a slap on the wrists for stepping out of line - which is undisputed and fully admitted. There is however, another issue relating to the way the CAA has handled many minor infringements this year at local airfields, and in a lot of peoples opinion, it is unnecessary to take it to this extreme and a little heavy handed, but this is not my battle so I will just sow the seed and leave it here. Pretty sure JTobias will be back very soon.

[Helibabe1]

How have you heard the recording? The ‘tapes’ would have been impounded once the event had gone ‘official’ the controller wouldn’t have access to them, and only the investigation team would prior to the prosecution. The pilot pleaded guilty by letter so he didn’t attend any court to hear any evidence that may have been played there.

So so how did you hear the recording?

Correct! Lived every day of it by his side, as have a lot of others. I cannot comment specifically and so I wont be.

[NumptyAussie]

Correct! Lived every day of it by his side, as have a lot of others. I cannot comment specifically and so I wont be.

Huh? I don't quite understand what you mean?

[visibility3miles]

315B
Thread is starting to deviate into... [the] absurd.

My comment on the champagne and helicopter was meant as humor, not to imply he actually drank before flying.

Clearly it is a "Look at me!" photo intended to show off his hobbies and achievements.

[Bksmithca]

Huh? I don't quite understand what you mean?
NumptyAussie
Not being a helicopter pilot I think she means she was in the other seat at the time of the incident.

BK

[Tom Bangla]

Exactly - bite your tongue/count to ten and then transmit concisely and professionally and then bring any grievance up later by phone.

Do you have any idea how much fuel is burned by counting to 10?

[cattletruck]

The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops

This is a truly awful statement that is unqualified and based on ignorance and a sense of self aggrandisement. I'm familiar with Joel's business and he is truly a remarkable chap who has hard won the privileges he now enjoys. I wouldn't be surprised if Joel has made similar clangers along his own career path. Punishing people with their livelihood because they didn't satisfy you on that day is not how society works - no wonder she's 'shaken up'.

[Bell_ringer]

Do you have any idea how much fuel is burned by counting to 10?

So what? No one has exclusive use of an airfield. Delays are part of the system, whether it is waiting for higher priority traffic, a student to work out where they are, emergencies or a junior controller making an error. If you can't keep your cool for something minor, what happens when a real problem occurs?

To answer your question, counting to 10 on a typical single will burn around 1 lbs of A1 or half a litre. Not worth losing your license over,

[NumptyAussie]

Do you have any idea how much fuel is burned by counting to 10?

If you are concerned about the $/£/€ value of minutes in the air, and given the size of the uk, would it not be more efficient catching a UBER?

[Bell_ringer]

Posing with a shotgun and bottle of fizz in front of an uber just isn't as instagramable :}

[NumptyAussie]

Posing with a shotgun and bottle of fizz in front of an uber just isn't as instagramable :}

Good point. I never considered that.

[jumpseater]

Correct! Lived every day of it by his side, as have a lot of others. I cannot comment specifically and so I wont be.

So you’ve not heard the recordings like you said you had.

You’re also commenting specifically on this event despite you saying your not going to.....

[Repos]

This is a truly awful statement that is unqualified and based on ignorance and a sense of self aggrandisement. I'm familiar with Joel's business and he is truly a remarkable chap who has hard won the privileges he now enjoys. I wouldn't be surprised if Joel has made similar clangers along his own career path. Punishing people with their livelihood because they didn't satisfy you on that day is not how society works - no wonder she's 'shaken up'.

Agree Cattletruck
Having read the original news item I was interested to read the opinions of the professionals here, so no axe to grind either way, but that comment about the ATC really stood out as a cheap shot.

[helimutt]

You do know you don't always need permission to enter an ATZ right?

Really? I didn’t know that. Wow. Thanks for the info.

[Gustosomerset]

I have no knowledge of any of the people involved, but this story seems a great illustration of how - in the age of online 'journalism' 'and social media - what seems to be true almost always Trumps (intended) what is true. In this context, in this country, it's surely simply never a good idea to post an image of yourself in front of your helicopter holding a gun and a bottle of champagne. I say 'in this country' because I think the image would connote something quite different in the U.S.
There, you might expect: "There's a successful guy, enjoying the fruits of his success to the full! Good on ya, buddy!"
Here it's: "What a massive d*ckhead. If he ever steps out of line, I'm calling the authorities."

Compound this with allowing it to be known that you own an Aston Martin and a motorbike and having yourself recorded saying: "​​​​I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay..." and your situation is pretty irredeemable, whatever the facts of the case and however much of a great guy you really are.

[helimutt]

There’s two sides to consider with this story guys.. it’s not all it seems

JTobias is a personal helicopter pilot friend of mine and anybody who knows him, knows how utterly professional he is in the air and (1)most pilots will never obtain the experience he already has. The articles do not portray the knowledgeable, skillful, generous and charitable man (2)we all know. His personal success is unrelated and nobody’s business but he is undisputably professional there too and any suggestion otherwise is ludicrous.

His silence is merely because of the regulatory procedure pending as I am sure you can appreciate, that is his main priority and concern.

The case covers what was a 15-20 sec agitated incident with a controller (3)which we’ve all had at one time or another, and by no means describes the professionalism he exhibits normally. He has had no problem whatsoever apologising and admitting what he did was out of character and wrong, but it happened. End of.

However, you should also understand that there was an unreported and significant run up to the ‘rant’ being sensationalised in the press, which inevitably lead to the nature of the call. There was absolutely no confliction with other aircraft either.. Blackpool isn’t exactly Gatwick!

The controller stated she was ‘shaken up’ which, if accurate, leads me to think that Blackpool is where her ATC career stops, and maybe the real world of ATC may be too stressful for her to cope with. (4)She should try a bird-strike in a helicopter!

(5)This is nothing more than a ‘speeding ticket and a ticking off’ by a copper in the air.. and if you saw the size of the infringement in inches you’d be shocked! But that doesn’t sell papers…!

Ok so
1. A bold statement on a Professional Helicopter pilot forum. Isn’t he a private pilot?
2. Most of us on this forum don’t know him
3. I can pretty much guarantee the vast majority on this forum don’t argue with ATC. Ive never once had reason to in over 25yrs of flying.
4. So tell us the bird strike in a helicopter story. I bet a lot of us here have had one. Some of us more than we like to remember, and we’re all still here to tell the tale.
5. If it was nothing more than a ‘ticking off’ then there wouldn’t be a fine and a loss of his hard earned pilots licence, albeit possibly only temporary.

I get the feeling that you may be more than just a ‘friend’ of JTobias. One minute you’re a friend, the next you write as if you’re a partner and have first hand knowledge of this occurrence.

Or maybe you’re JTobias pretending to be Helibabe1? :hmm:

Anyway, lets hope the licence gets reinstated and he can continue to fly his helicopter. Have a great day. :ok:

[helimutt]

I have no knowledge of any of the people involved, but this story seems a great illustration of how - in the age of online 'journalism' 'and social media - what seems to be true almost always Trumps (intended) what is true. In this context, in this country, it's surely simply never a good idea to post an image of yourself in front of your helicopter holding a gun and a bottle of champagne. I say 'in this country' because I think the image would connote something quite different in the U.S.
There, you might expect: "There's a successful guy, enjoying the fruits of his success to the full! Good on ya, buddy!"
Here it's: "What a massive d*ckhead. If he ever steps out of line, I'm calling the authorities."

Compound this with allowing it to be known that you own an Aston Martin and a motorbike and having yourself recorded saying: "​​​​I'm in a helicopter here that costs £550 an hour, okay..." and your situation is pretty irredeemable, whatever the facts of the case and however much of a great guy you really are.

I actually laughed out loud reading this. :D:ok: Very funny. The only thing you could have added was if he’d said “Do you know who I am?”

[ShyTorque]

The only thing you could have added was if he’d said “Do you know who I am?”

Ronnie Pickering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b33ptuTZTqo&list=RDr0dcv6GKNNw&index=2

[Helibabe1]

315B


My comment on the champagne and helicopter was meant as humor, not to imply he actually drank before flying.

Clearly it is a "Look at me!" photo intended to show off his hobbies and achievements.

what a ridiculous comment.. on that basis, nearly ALL photographs on social media including Facebook and Instagram are “Look at me” photos. And why can’t he post photos of a nice day out? Do you? I certainly do.
The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal!

[Helibabe1]

So you’ve not heard the recordings like you said you had.

You’re also commenting specifically on this event despite you saying your not going to.....

I’ve said I’m not commenting specifically on the recording as there is a regulatory procedure pending in the next few days.. precisely why JTobias isn’t commenting himself. He is FULLY aware of my comments and he knows I have first hand experience of the matter concerning him, as do the entire team of helicopter pilots who are fully supporting him online and in person of which I am part of in my own right as a heli pilot since 2009. The newspapers don’t show the 10 mins leading up to the comments made and he is not disputing what he did was wrong. The fine wasn’t for the radio call, it was for the infringement. The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.

[NumptyAussie]

I’ve said I’m not commenting specifically on the recording as there is a regulatory procedure pending in the next few days.. precisely why JTobias isn’t commenting himself. He is FULLY aware of my comments and he knows I have first hand experience of the matter concerning him, as do the entire team of helicopter pilots who are fully supporting him online and in person of which I am part of in my own right as a heli pilot since 2009. The newspapers don’t show the 10 mins leading up to the comments made and he is not disputing what he did was wrong. The fine wasn’t for the radio call, it was for the infringement. The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.

No worries Audrey....

[Nige321]

what a ridiculous comment.. on that basis, nearly ALL photographs on social media including Facebook and Instagram are “Look at me” photos. And why can’t he post photos of a nice day out? Do you? I certainly do.
The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal!

If it was private it couldn't have been stolen, could it.
And if it was, doesn't say a lot for a cybersecurity specialist...:}

[helimutt]

what a ridiculous comment.. on that basis, nearly ALL photographs on social media including Facebook and Instagram are “Look at me” photos. And why can’t he post photos of a nice day out? Do you? I certainly do.
The photo was stolen from his private account but merely showed a fun corporate event for pilots at a clay pigeon shoot, whereby he won the competition. Lots of pilots flew in that day and the champagne was a token gesture as he is pretty much tee-total and he certainly would never go hunting let alone shoot an animal!

Once again, for someone who is only a friend, you seem to know an awful lot about him. If the photo was off facebook or instagram then that isn't a 'private account'. Unless you know even more about that subject? I'm beginning to think you're JT himself. :)

[helimutt]

If it was private it couldn't have been stolen, could it.
And if it was, doesn't say a lot for a cybersecurity specialist...:}

Careful. Don't upset him. he's a cyber security expert. Audrey is maybe not helping things.

[jeepys]

Okay Helibabe so we don’t know about the previous 10 mins leading to the clash and as you say he agrees that he was out of order.
I agree that the CAA should be investigating this as knowingly infringing airspace is poor practice and professionalism.

Would you have done the same thing in the same circumstances prior to this fallout?

[Helibabe1]

Once again, for someone who is only a friend, you seem to know an awful lot about him. If the photo was off facebook or instagram then that isn't a 'private account'. Unless you know even more about that subject? I'm beginning to think you're JT himself. :)

What possible relevance does my friendship have on this topic? My opening sentence told you I was a personal friend - AS ARE LOTS OF OTHER PILOTS - and my original message was in support of him. It therefore stands to reason that I know a lot about him, as he does of me and many other friends, and if that wasnt the case I wouldnt bother commenting at all. What problem do you have with that? Stick to to the topic and stop trying to make it my thread.

[homonculus]

What a fine mess

So it seems a PPl(H) infringed an ATZ 'by inches' but was reported by another, local, pilot because he had had a rant at the local controller. Amazingly, if true, this wasted county court time when thousands of serious cases such as rape are being logistically delayed

The wonderful press totally misreport it as a fine for a rant.

This thread then disintegrates into insinuations about alcohol and relationships between poster and pilot.

Great entertainment chaps but nothing to do with reality. Reminds me of a Friday night, holding to cross the Gatwick active, when I told my passenger what I though of the various commercial fixed wings being given precedence before realising I had a sticky transmit button. Never repeated.

[pilotmike]

The photo was stolen from his private account ....
I thought he'd made his millions in cyber security? In which case, this isn't a good advert.

Or maybe really, secretly wanted everyone to see the spoils of his success? So maybe getting himself into the national press with a modest fine so that his successes could be aired nationally was excellent value publicity for him....

More and more curious

[Gustosomerset]

From his company website: "When Joel isn’t in his office, he can be found up in the sky, being a passionate pilot of fixed wing planes and flying his very own helicopter." Again, it's the little things that convey so much. The champagne, the gun, the addition of "his very own." ....

[Simplythebeast]

From his company website: "When Joel isn’t in his office, he can be found up in the sky, being a passionate pilot of fixed wing planes and flying his very own helicopter." Again, it's the little things that convey so much. The champagne, the gun, the addition of "his very own." ....

What does any of that have to do with anything?

[Alpine Flyer]

When I was still a teenager I once said something like "thanks for letting us wait" when reading back a take-off clearance for our rented Cessna after waiting for a couple of airliners to land. My father (also a long-time rated pilot) just said "if you're that upset you shouldn't fly". I think of that (almost) every time I feel like complaining to ATC on the radio and bite my lips.

[Dct_Mopas]

I can’t condone rants/ unprofessional RT under any circumstance. However, the situation at Blackpool this last year has been intolerable and not pleasant for anyone. So much so I’m done with operating out the place for “pleasure” flying for the time being. Blackpool Approach frequency controls all ground and air movements and can be extremely congested and frustrating, especially with imminent daily airport closures (45 mins at a time for controller breaks) this leads to everyone departing and arriving at the same time in utter chaos. Hopefully those closures have now finished, but last time I checked no end date was in sight.

The airport used to be brilliant, not so these days. Poor, rude and expensive service with regards to multiple aspects of operating from here. (Not directly at the ATC). But without hearing the details of the pilot-controller communication it’s really not too far fetched to imagine a scenario where an otherwise level headed individual could be easily aggravated and stressed by the normal daily comings and goings at EGNH.

[helimutt]

What possible relevance does my friendship have on this topic? My opening sentence told you I was a personal friend - AS ARE LOTS OF OTHER PILOTS - and my original message was in support of him. It therefore stands to reason that I know a lot about him, as he does of me and many other friends, and if that wasnt the case I wouldnt bother commenting at all. What problem do you have with that? Stick to to the topic and stop trying to make it my thread.

You came on in support of him. Not me. I don't even know the guy, and to be honest, talking the way he did, i'm not sure i'd want to. ('do you know who I am?' kind of talking doesn't impress me im afraid.) You're actually the one who stated you were his friend, so you tell me what relevance it has. As for me having a problem with it? I don't. Sorry to p*ss on your fire. PS IM SO GLAD HE HAS LOTS OF PILOT FRIENDS.
This is PPRuNe.
You're welcome

[Pera]

Sounds like there were radio issues. Either the initial transmissions were not received or were incomplete. One source states that he called three times and was acknowledged then another says that he was only acknowledged on the third transmission. Making a radio transmission does not mean that your transmission has been received. You may be over transmitted by another aircraft, your radio may not be operating correctly or the controller simply may miss your transmission or be coordinating with other agencies.

Patience and airmanship are required in these situations. This pilot demonstrated neither and placed himself and other aircraft in conflict.

The rant is clearly unacceptable as is entering the ATZ.

[Steepclimb]

If you can't afford it then don't fly. But I have a sneaking sympathy. Back learning to fly at Dublin Airport in the eighties. I was frequently asked to hold, Dunsoghly Castle or Dunboyne. After forty minutes idly orbiting. I half considered declaring a financial emergency. 'I've plenty of fuel but the bank account is critically depleted.' But then again I had an overdraft and a maxed out credit card long before it was popular.

He was foolish.

[justmaybe]

Without knowing all the facts, it does however seem that undue weight might have been given to the exchange of rtf transmissions in the decision to prosecute for the ATZ infringement. It really does beg the question as to whether, in terms of transparency and fairness, prosecutorial decision making and action should be taken out of the hands of the CAA. I would be much more sanguine if such decisions and actions was with the DPP. The Glen Stewart case still resonates with me.

[megan]

his flying capability is without question exceptionalmust be a real ace, have never ever heard of anyone being rated as "exceptional". Would have thought this episode proves he's anything but "exceptional", as most of us are (not exceptional).

[DHC4]

must be a real ace, have never ever heard of anyone being rated as "exceptional". Would have thought this episode proves he's anything but "exceptional", as most of us are (not exceptional).

i wonder if he also goes by the name of Ronnie Pickering.

[Super Cecil]

Typical prune thread, buncho know it all's slagging off. Will somebody please post the outcome of this incident when it's resolved?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

When we contact ATC we have no clue how much the Controller is dealing with. Radio, Phone, Planning clearances etc. Placing the controller under further pressure without justification (and the only legitimate justification is if your safety is compromised) is just plain bad CRM at its best and at its worst could lead to a serious safety outcome for other parties.

In this context the CAA are absolutely correct to prosecute and make an example of poor behaviour like this. I am sure Mr T is a nice guy, great pilot etc but I also feel sure given his profile he probably feels a little ashamed of letting himself down, and so he should! ATC are there to assist and support our activities and we should recognise there attention is often spread very thin. All the people I had the pleasure to fly with, the quality I admire the most is calmness. I need more of that too.

[homonculus]

the CAA are absolutely correct to prosecute and make an example of poor behaviour like this

They didnt. They prosecuted for ATZ infringement. The question is why if, as suggested, it was by inches and the pilot was communicating if not cleared? Was it because the reporting pilot 'took sides' with his local controller/ Or because of the rant? Whichever, there may seem to some that the decision to prosecute is arbitrary and therefore justice is not being seen to be impartial.

[Kelly Hopper]

A bit of perspective....

After an 11 hour flight landed at Vnukovo, Moscow. Right turn off the active, round the airline apron and back to the threshold to cross and taxi to VNO3.

Held at the crossing for 1 hour 15 mins whilst ATC gave 29 consecutive landing clearances without a single crossing or take off! Finally got a crossing clearance but no way would they cancel the red stop bars. What do you do?

Now that is sh1t controlling.

And I don't think I have ever used HF in Africa without calling 5 times before getting a reply.

Just saying.

[FC80]

I’ve said I’m not commenting specifically on the recording as there is a regulatory procedure pending in the next few days.. precisely why JTobias isn’t commenting himself. He is FULLY aware of my comments and he knows I have first hand experience of the matter concerning him, as do the entire team of helicopter pilots who are fully supporting him online and in person of which I am part of in my own right as a heli pilot since 2009. The newspapers don’t show the 10 mins leading up to the comments made and he is not disputing what he did was wrong. The fine wasn’t for the radio call, it was for the infringement. The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.

Exceptional? Wow. Perhaps he can give us all a few pointers when he gets back :}

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Homonculus, you rather miss the point, which is; If we all argued with ATC every time we felt delayed or our needs not been immediately met, imagine the chaos in the skies. Its all well and good trying to justify the unjustifiable but as the old acid test continues to give...when we climb in an Airbus/Boeing, we don't expect the Captain to start arguing with ATC. State of mind, Safety, Efficiency, Distraction and all the other hooded horsemen of the Apocalypse coalesce. Whatever the detail of the prosecution, I doubt My T will get himself in this situation again and its good that it is here on PPRUINE cos there isn't, nor there should be, any excuse for behaving like this!
Anything else is just hot air and moaning.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

The priority now is to get the license reinstated forthwith as his flying capability is without question exceptional.

HELIBABE - Flying Ability is not just about how we waggle the sticks! CRM, temperament, airmanship (that old nugget) all play a part. From my perspective, I am "Exceptional" at Sex! However, I suspect her indoors would have a different perspective especially when I am waggling my stick!

[meleagertoo]

Are there any details on this "infringement"?
Different posts appear to say he infringed the active runway, others that it was the ATZ. Some say 'by inches'.
Which was it? And how did it occur?
Did he then go on to land at Blackpool or did he route around and land elsewhere.
Factual details of the case seem few and far between - perhaps if we knew a bit more there might be less wild speculation.

[Final 3 Greens]

when we climb in an Airbus/Boeing, we don't expect the Captain to start arguing with ATC.

I do, if the situation warrants it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sQuHnrJu1I

It should be rare, but treating ATC as an unquestionable authority is poor airmanship IMHO.

[jayteeto]

I know someone who was rated exceptional during RAF flying training. Flew close formation with him on JPs and he was incredible.

He got chopped for his lack of officer qualities.

Its more than poling skills make a good pilot.............

[jellycopter]

I'm not going to comment about this incident as I know nothing about it other than what is posted here. I suspect that there is some journalistic license and sensationalism, but can't be certain. What I can comment on with certainty is Joel Tobias.

I first met Joel about fifteen years ago when I was a freelance Helicopter pilot and instructor. He got my number from a friend as he wanted to learn more about helicopter flying. At the time he was an inexperienced PPL(H) pilot who was a little frustrated that his flying was often curtailed by the vagueries of the British weather. This contact lead to over 100 hours of advanced flying training in many disciplines including his night rating, mountain flying, instrument flying and bad weather appreciation. We flew throughout the UK over several years; he simply wanted to experience what helicopter flying had to offer and to improve his own skills and knowledge. I was always impressed by his preparation and enthusiasm which surpassed many of the 'professional' pilots with whom I've worked over the years.

A self-made man and success story in business he was, and still is, generous to a fault. I know of many occasions when he has given his time, and his helicopter freely to others less financially fortunate than himself. On one such occasion, a helicopter landing at a school in Manchester for a friend's son's school project required a CAA congested area approval. Joel had the professionalism, and in-depth knowledge of rules and procedures that he organised the approval without prompting. (I have flown with many PPLs over the years, and this knowledge and adherence to procedure is not that common).

Sure, Joel has his faults. Who hasn't? He could be accused of being 'a bit flash' which is borne out by some of the photos posted on this thread. Notwithstanding, I am happy that my client-customer relationship had developed into a long standing friendship.

If you're reading this Joel, don't listen to all the bollocks and sour grapes. I'm sure if this incident is anything like what is portrayed here, you'll be the biggest critic of all.

JJ

[homonculus]

Homonculus, you rather miss the point, which is; If we all argued with ATC every time we felt delayed or our needs not been immediately met, imagine the chaos in the skies.

Totally agree with you DB but that is nothing to do with my post. IF he had been prosecuted for arguing I wouldnt have posted. I posted because he had been prosecuted for something totally different. The rant has nothing to do with the story, it is just sloppy journalism and opportunism. I am commenting on the decision to prosecutor for an ATZ infringement. Nothing more

[[email protected]]

And there I was, thinking the OBN (Order of the Brown Nose) was clearly in Helibabes hands when up pops Jelly to snatch it,:)

[off watch]

UK AIP extract for Blackpool :
Aerodrome is PPR to all flights, both arrivals and departures. PPR may be obtained by telephoning Blackpool ATC on 01253-472527. Alternatively PPR may be obtained by e-mail to [email protected]. Filing a flight plan is an acceptable means of compliance.

Press report says "Miss Tolley had not been aware of the incoming flight yet when she tried to ask Tobias to wait etc....."

I wonder if that was because Mr.T hadn't notified them as required or was it an ATC or Aerodrome Ops cock-up ?

[[email protected]]

Perhaps his punishment , instead of a fine, should have been to spend a day or two in Blackpool ATC so he actually understands that they are not there just for him.

[750XL]

All the Joel fanboys coming out of the woodwork making an embarrassment of themselves :*

You wouldn't expect anyone to behave like this whilst doing their weekly shop in Aldi (or is it Waitrose?), so why is it acceptable in the air?

World needs less of these types of people.

[HeliMannUK]

Cannot believe I wasted 10 minutes of my life reading the replies to this post. Why is this actually a thing.

[nomorehelosforme]

All the Joel fanboys coming out of the woodwork making an embarrassment of themselves :*

You wouldn't expect anyone to behave like this whilst doing their weekly shop in Aldi (or is it Waitrose?), so why is it acceptable in the air?

World needs less of these types of people.

No surely Lidel or M&S? Despite what has been said, he basically f***ed up in a moment of temper, take the punishment, pay your dues and move on! As for how much money and how flamboyant he is that is not really relevant to the thread, unless he used the classic statement “Do you not know who I am!”