Box Hill TAFE drops Aviation Diploma [Archive]

Clare Prop

8th Jan 2020, 09:06

Australia’s biggest recipient of taxpayer-funded student loans for trainee pilots has been stripped of its authority to offer aviation courses, leaving 400 students in the lurch.

Box Hill Institute was audited by the Australian Skills Quality Authority last year following a raft of complaints from students about course delivery and a very low graduation rate.

ASQA is the overseeing authority for VET student loans.

After the audit, flight training provided by Soar Aviation (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/soar-aviation-pilot-training-resumes-after-review/news-story/5d0e5daf4ef95e0a1d673a6e07a81b11)was suspended for a week and students informed of possible minor changes to their courses.

But in a letter distributed to students of Box Hill on Tuesday, aviation manager Adrian Lea said as a result of a decision by ASQA, the institute was no longer authorised to deliver the diploma of aviation from January 30.

“We understand this will be disappointing for you and we are urgently clarifying the ramifications of ASQA’s decision for our aviation students,” Mr Lea wrote.

“We are investigating seeking a reconsideration of the decision by ASQA however it is unclear whether such a request would be successful. In any case, the fact remains that the Diploma of Aviation (including its individual clusters) needs to be discontinued with effect from January 30, 2020.”

He went on to say that it was his “strong recommendation that students did not incur any further costs or fees in relation to enrolled units”, such as further flight training.

Department of Employment statistics for the six months to June 30, 2019, showed more than $7m worth of loans had been paid for 289 enrolments in the commercial pilot licence course at Box Hill.

In 2018, more than $11m in loans was paid for 402 enrolments, but only six students graduated.

A statement from Soar Aviation said its board “strongly refuted the findings of ASQA and the decision to revoke Box Hill Institute’s approval to provide third party practical training in conjunction with Soar Aviation.

“Many of ASQA’s conclusions are based on errors of fact and Soar Aviation is considering the appropriate avenues to maintain its registration,” the statement said.

“Soar Aviation and Box Hill Institute recently reviewed all procedures that are performed under Commercial Pilot Licence aviation training to ensure they comply with all relevant Civil Aviation legislation.”

The statement went to say 70 people had obtainted their Diploma of Aviation under the Box Hill program.

“A further 400 students are enrolled and part way through their course. We will do everything we can to ensure they have the opportunity to complete their training and successfully gain their qualifications.”

Soar Aviation and Box Hill Institute came under renewed scrutiny late last year after the second serious plane crash in 14-months.

On December 12, 2019, a student conducting a solo training flight was seriously injured when his Bristell S-LSA crashed during a “touch and go” manoeuvre at Moorabbin Airport.

On October 5, 2018, another student was left a paraplegic and his trainer injured when their training flight in a Bristell S-LSA went wrong near Stawell in Victoria.

Both incidents remain the subject of Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigations.

Mr Lea’s letter to students said Box Hill would do its best to support them through this period and navigate available options.

Robyn Ironside (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Robyn+Ironside)

kaz3g

8th Jan 2020, 09:38

Thanks Clare 😊

The name is Porter

8th Jan 2020, 13:48

Cheap Bristell anyone? Foxbat perhaps? (Not certified for incipient spins)

Okihara

8th Jan 2020, 15:58

Cheap Bristell anyone? Foxbat perhaps? (Not certified for incipient spins)
Sure, if the new paint job is on the house.

Squawk7700

8th Jan 2020, 21:09

I’ll take one of the Tecnams please. No repaint required.

Sunfish

8th Jan 2020, 21:24

I think I see a class action on the horizon. Box Hill will wear it because the other party will have taken their money and run.

‘For me the question remains: why was this school not identified and nailed by CASA and the far better school APTA targeted and destroyed instead?

aroa

8th Jan 2020, 23:06

Sunny... dont you know...its all about their/CAsA's perception of the 'mystique of air safety'
And of course if you argue with them,or have a difference of personalities....LOOK OUT !!!
Their power is outrageous, unfettered and downright disgusting.
eg ...on a survey job the CPL at 3500 was seeking clearance to climb to 5000 for the photo runs.
The LL had be changed from 4000 to 3500..(CPL had copied all changes onto the chart but missed the 3500 bit).so according to the controller we were already in it.
And in poo too, .No further clearance.cease ops, return to xxxx and ring this phone no.
Next day we presented ourselves to the Ivory Tower in town for a lecture. I suggested to the CPL you do all the talking, I'll just keep my eyes down / adopt the submissive posture.
At the end of it all the CAsA person pulled two letters from the desk drawer. stating...
" if I had not been happy with your ATTITUDE today, this letter is to CANCEL your approval to operate/AOC, and this letter, allows you to continue. We got the second one....but that is not the point. Its all about demonstrating the ABUSE of POWER.
So there you have it ...you life, livelihood, business, mental and financial wellbeing can all go down the CAsA dunny in a flush.!
Ever see a CASR, CAR, Instrument, or Exemption that defines the attitudes or mind set of any individual, CAsA or otherwise.?

Clare Prop

9th Jan 2020, 00:10

Was the using RA-Aus idea just to be cheap or to avoid CASA scrutiny as well?

Stickshift3000

9th Jan 2020, 00:19

Was the using RA-Aus idea just to be cheap or to avoid CASA scrutiny as well?

I’d guess both, in equal measure.

Sunfish

9th Jan 2020, 00:40

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 00:42

In 2018, more than $11m in loans was paid for 402 enrolments, but only six students graduated.

Graduated what exactly? Did they obtain a CPL? Or did they just receive the Diploma, they are two VERY different things in FEE-HELP land.

BUT..........have a think about those figures. Even if those 6 got the CPL AND the Diploma, it is an appalling 'success' rate.

I'll pause this post so you can have a think about the above, while you're thinking about it, where did the 11 mill go???....................

A statement from Soar Aviation said its board “strongly refuted the findings of ASQA and the decision to revoke Box Hill Institute’s approval to provide third party practical training in conjunction with Soar Aviation.

We strenuously object............do you? So?

“Many of ASQA’s conclusions are based on errors of fact and Soar Aviation is considering the appropriate avenues to maintain its registration,” the statement said.

Well, it'll all be published soon, won't that be a hoot.

“Soar Aviation and Box Hill Institute recently reviewed all procedures that are performed under Commercial Pilot Licence aviation training to ensure they comply with all relevant Civil Aviation legislation.”

And both of you didn't and don't. Let's see the reports, let's see who these reports will be referred to ;-)

The statement went to say 70 people had obtainted their Diploma of Aviation under the Box Hill program.

- Out of how many enrolments?? Go on, give us the figures??

- 70 Diplomas DOES NOT MEAN 70 CPL's, It's important to note that these Aviation FEE-HELP courses can be structured so that you can obtain a Diploma and not receive a CPL. Out of those 70 Diplomas, how many CPL's have been issued??

- How many of your graduated students are now working in the industry? (Minus the ex-students that you yourself have employed).

- What is the total amount of FEE-HELP received by your organisation?

- How many students have been FEE-HELP funded?

Then we can compare the Diploma, CPL & Industry placed pilots.

Free iPad anyone? Ironic isn't it? An iPad would make the most sense for a course like this.

swells

9th Jan 2020, 01:19

Squawk7700

9th Jan 2020, 01:34

What CASA rule have they actually broken though?

The ATSB report on the Bristell crash says that the pilot (with a passenger) did not have a medical.

Who knows what else has been happening. Hopefully we will hear more soon.

Sunfish

9th Jan 2020, 01:40

But Soar did have a good attitude as far as CASA was concerned. That seems to be all that matters.

swells

9th Jan 2020, 01:45

The ATSB report on the Bristell crash says that the pilot (with a passenger) did not have a medical.

Who knows what else has been happening. Hopefully we will hear more soon.

ah... wasn't aware of that part ... yes I'm sure more will come out in the wash, but just clarifying that there MAY not be a CASA issue (but yeah...) - ASQA does operate in a completly different world ... and IMHO this is part of the problem

machtuk

9th Jan 2020, 01:46

Australia must look like prize idiot amateurs to the rest of the world!

0ttoL

9th Jan 2020, 01:57

The ATSB report on the Bristell crash says that the pilot (with a passenger) did not have a medical.

Who knows what else has been happening. Hopefully we will hear more soon.

The ATSB report at https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2018/aair/ao-2018-066/

Mentions that the PASSENGER was a Student Pilot WITHOUT a valid MEDICAL.
No mention of the status of the Pilot

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/641x238/screen_shot_2020_01_09_at_1_53_01_pm_b3c333d1cb322eb5c35ff7c 11e6f372cde3590bb.png

kaz3g

9th Jan 2020, 02:05

I’d be grateful if one of the affected students involved in the VCAT hearing could provide case number and link to decision, please.

kaz

Squawk7700

9th Jan 2020, 02:13

The ATSB report at https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2018/aair/ao-2018-066/

Mentions that the PASSENGER was a Student Pilot WITHOUT a valid MEDICAL.
No mention of the status of the Pilot

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/641x238/screen_shot_2020_01_09_at_1_53_01_pm_b3c333d1cb322eb5c35ff7c 11e6f372cde3590bb.png

Apologies for that error. That’s what happens when your iPhone is too small! Can’t blame my eyesight or CASA will take away my medical, lol 😂

Lead Balloon

9th Jan 2020, 02:14

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 02:48

ASQA is indeed different/separate to CASA.

But as more comes out about this fiasco, mmm, maybe CASA may become involved. Plus a few other government departments and maybe even an independent organisation of some description.

Squawk7700

9th Jan 2020, 03:34

If the holder of the student pilot licence was in fact just a passenger on the flight, the fact that s/he was a student pilot licence holder is completely irrelevant and the currency or otherwise of his/her medical certificate is completely irrelevant, unless there was some causal connection with the accident. Indeed, it would be completely irrelevant if the PICs medical certificate was not current, unless there was come causal connection between a medical condition suffered by the pilot and the accident.

I read it that perhaps they are suggesting that there were two pilots in the aircraft and neither of them was able to stop the spin from happening. I was trying to think as to why they would have mentioned that, however looking back at previous crash reports, it appears to be common to mention pilots as passengers.

Clare Prop

9th Jan 2020, 03:40

Thee is no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence, hasn't been for a long time now and certainly not in 2018

Stickshift3000

9th Jan 2020, 03:55

Thee is no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence, hasn't been for a long time now and certainly not in 2018

There is also no mention of the pilot’s qualifications (if any); relevant to the nav exercise as they carried a passenger.

triton140

9th Jan 2020, 04:00

Thee is no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence, hasn't been for a long time now and certainly not in 2018

True, but according to my CASA records I still hold an SPL. So they must exist! :}

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 07:21

OK kiddies, there's another FEE-HELP school in the Melbourne area targeting you, be very careful. Very, VERY careful. PM me if required.

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 09:43

Quite a few of you that have PM'd, your inbox's are full, empty em out and I'll reply to you.

BigPapi

9th Jan 2020, 11:09

You know, I can only think of two schools at YMMB outside of a university that offers FEE Help hmmmmmmm

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 19:49

Not talking about Moorabbin only.

The name is Porter

9th Jan 2020, 19:50

And there are still punters PM'ing with full inbox's, preventing replies.

Chopz

9th Jan 2020, 21:17

You know, I can only think of two schools at YMMB outside of a university that offers FEE Help hmmmmmmm

Who are the two schools? I only know of RVAC.

BigPapi

9th Jan 2020, 21:29

Who are the two schools? I only know of RVAC.
Doesn't Tristar also offer FEE help? Not overly familiar with them, could be wrong.

Swift13

9th Jan 2020, 21:49

And there are still punters PM'ing with full inbox's, preventing replies.

I've cleared my inbox :)

Okihara

9th Jan 2020, 21:59

I’ll take one of the Tecnams please. No repaint required.
... those are the only aircraft they have that aren't yellow!

Squawk7700

9th Jan 2020, 22:08

I feel as though those schools that got onto this gravy train, will soon be wanting to get off it !

Nominal

9th Jan 2020, 22:10

And there are still punters PM'ing with full inbox's, preventing replies.

It looks like new users need to make some posts before they can receive any messages, until then their inbox will remain full.

Kundry

9th Jan 2020, 23:53

Tristar seem to no longer be approved for HELP loans (but still registered as an RTO with the diplomas in their scope). TVSA seems to be trying to take advantage of the SOAR situation.

Swift13

10th Jan 2020, 00:00

And there are still punters PM'ing with full inbox's, preventing replies.
Porter, has the school been mentioned in any of the recent posts? Or is it the one based at YBSS?

The name is Porter

10th Jan 2020, 04:37

Hey Swift, check your PM's now!

Swift13

10th Jan 2020, 04:47

Hey Swift, check your PM's now!
Thank you :)

The name is Porter

10th Jan 2020, 08:44

OK, the PM replies seem to be going through! Bear with me, I'll get back to you all.

Clare Prop

10th Jan 2020, 10:15

Time for a Royal Commission ?

The name is Porter

10th Jan 2020, 11:40

Clare Prop

10th Jan 2020, 12:54

It has a place for sure, best used to help pilots who have already got the CPL to upskill to help get that first job.

That amount of 150 grand is only available for other courses that need ATAR of 95+. (Vet, Medicine, Dentistry) This course needed an ATAR of 40.65. The average is about 65.

"A former student of Box Hill Institute in Melbourne and Soar Aviation (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/soar-aviation-pilot-training-resumes-after-review/news-story/5d0e5daf4ef95e0a1d673a6e07a81b11)said the enrolment test could be completed at home and focused on basic English and simple algebra equations. On its website, Soar Aviation says its courses do not require a background in “physics or mathematics”. “We will teach you what you need to know to achieve a commercial pilot *licence,” it says."

just a dumb pilot

10th Jan 2020, 20:47

It is clear that some training organisations are focused entirely on financial return however there are others that take pride in delivering what they promise. Unfortunately some educational institutions just enrol anyone that is prepared to sign up and they are not fully scrutinised by Government.
Simple fix is make all providers report course success rates publicly so there is transparency right from the start.
anyone who is involved in flight training should understand that occasionally they can have a student who is not going to succeed however the poor achievement rates of some providers indicate a total lack of initial assessment and poor remedial support.

Clare Prop

11th Jan 2020, 01:20

I remember a time, over 20 years ago, when the TAFE aviation students were allowed, in fact encouraged, to shop around for their flying school and TAFE were not allowed to influence their decision.

This then stopped when the loans came in and the students were forced to use the TAFE/UNIs chosen provider, opening up opportunities for corruption. Despite taxpayers money raining down, two of ECUs chosen providers at Jandakot went broke one after the other, leaving students and instructors high and dry while the directors just drove away in their expensive cars and were never made to account for the chaos they had caused.

I also think the issue of "Cancellation fees" needs to be addressed...I recall this in one of NK press releases being mentioned, that he generously wouldn't charge cancellation fees when the school was temporarily grounded. Years ago an instructor at one of the schools who did ECU students told me the VET students were billed the same amount for lessons whether they turned up or not, and the percentage of the no-shows was very high. Yet still the school went to the wall.

Most of the smaller schools dodn't want to get involved with mass production or deal with that level of bureaucracy, so there becomes a very uneven playing field with the taxpayer funded superschools, that can't/won't stay in business for whatever reason, (perhaps they never intended to) and the rest of us who are still here plodding away providing quality training.

So perhaps it could work if the whole RTO side of things were dropped and students could chose their provider and let market forces sort it out.

Meanwhile I believe that this corruption must go to ministerial level to have gone as far as it has for as long as it has. The video with Mike McCormack is sickening. Unfortunately I can't copy the link but if you go to their faceache page and look among the videos for "Deputy Prime Minister, Michael McCormack visit to Soar Aviation"

https://www.facebook.com/soaraviation/videos/281021165857351/
https://www. facebook.com/soaraviationvideos/281021165857351/

Corvallis

11th Jan 2020, 04:11

There should be a list of training providers on a panel and students should be able to choose from between them. The loan should only be for the cpl part and students should self fund the ppl component. Just my opinion.

zanthrus

11th Jan 2020, 07:42

Neel probably sucked his d#ck for that endorsement!

sharv999

12th Jan 2020, 23:31

Cheap Bristell anyone? Foxbat perhaps? (Not certified for incipient spins)

VH-YUV for $120k.

Looks like the fire sale has begun.

DiamondWannabe

12th Jan 2020, 23:50

If you check on planesales it looks like Soar is selling off the mustards

BloodTypePepsi

13th Jan 2020, 04:20

The evidence is overwhelming, it's a swamp.

I'd like to be clear about FEE-HELP, I'm not against it, it has a place. It has no place in the hands of private businesses. You still have to be careful when you attend a government institution.

We can only hope that the pond scum that have ripped off hundreds of students will be held to account, rather than Australia's 'soft' corruption covering this embarrassment up.
There needs to be a better way to do it. Flying doesn't fit well with a university schedule, especially in a place that has so many days of crappy weather. (also nearly all the schools offer vet fee help now)
At least the circuit will be freed up, from the painfully slow vixens (I never felt like a butt hole so much in the air.)

Squawk7700

13th Jan 2020, 22:00

If you check on planesales it looks like Soar is selling off the mustards

6 Foxbats on there and the Bristell.

It has certainly begun.

The name is Porter

13th Jan 2020, 23:24

Somebody mentioned that our friend has skipped the country, is that the case?

The name is Porter

13th Jan 2020, 23:26

There needs to be a better way to do it. Flying doesn't fit well with a university schedule, especially in a place that has so many days of crappy weather. (also nearly all the schools offer vet fee help now)

There are undoubtedly better ways. Open to thoughts!!

The minority of schools offer FEE-HELP.

Sunfish

13th Jan 2020, 23:58

Porter, I suggested that Box Hill would be the only body with financial resources when, not if, a class action was decided. The other party would have moved themselves and their money offshore by then.

If I was running a class action already, I would have put caveats on those Soar aircraft for sale this morning.

mcoates

14th Jan 2020, 00:28

Clare Prop

14th Jan 2020, 00:49

I heard that NK left the country the day after the Moorabbin accident

Dangly Bits

14th Jan 2020, 02:26

Porter, his white Porsche SUV was out the front when I drove past about 2 hours ago.

Squawk7700

14th Jan 2020, 02:44

https://www.facebook.com/1580734692199543/posts/2643150049291330/

Here’s a good summary of what’s happened... (I am aware of the double link below, it’s was misbehaving)

https://www.facebook.com/1580734692199543/posts/2643150049291330

https://www.facebook.com/1580734692199543/posts/2643150049291330/ (https://www.facebook.com/1580734692199543/posts/2643150049291330/)

IFEZ

14th Jan 2020, 03:29

Hey Dangly - did it have a 'For Sale' sign on it..? :E

Ixixly

14th Jan 2020, 03:30

Hey Dangly - did it have a 'For Sale' sign on it..? :E

Or perhaps a "Police Aware" sign that they know it's been abandoned? :P

Dangly Bits

14th Jan 2020, 03:49

I would put a for sale sign on it but I have to assume it is parked right by his office window so he can look at it all day!

machtuk

14th Jan 2020, 04:47

Australia the lucky country, if you have criminal intentions and the ability to con people! We are not known to be too bright in some sectors of business!

The name is Porter

14th Jan 2020, 06:04

Porter, his white Porsche SUV was out the front when I drove past about 2 hours ago.

If that's the case, I wonder if there's any moves by his 'equity partners' to restrict his movements?

The name is Porter

14th Jan 2020, 06:09

Australia the lucky country, if you have criminal intentions and the ability to con people! We are not known to be too bright in some sectors of business!

Watching a doco on telly last night, fraud case. Old mate defrauded 1.5 Mill, caught and sentenced to 36 years prison, if he paid the money back, sentence dropped to 6 years.

Australia, probably the most corrupt and slack 'western democracy's' on the planet. It would give most 3rd world countries a run for their money.

kaz3g

14th Jan 2020, 06:41

Agreed, put a lein on the planes top try and recover some $$. If Neel has skipped the country to the depths of India, and the planes get sold, there will be nothing left to get anything back in the way of payout.

Students, go to Personal Property Securities Register and register an interest on the planes before it's too late (note: i am not a solicitor and this is not legal advice) but any way you can defeat this clown or slow him down is good in my eyes.

Liens generally require the goods to be in possession. Charges generally require a prior agreement or a court order. What is needed is a restraining order and that can happen once proceedings are instituted.

Squawk7700

14th Jan 2020, 07:44

BigPapi

14th Jan 2020, 07:54

Does anyone know to what scale Soar is downsizing? How many instructor job losses?

Ixixly

14th Jan 2020, 07:55

Amazing how many hours they have clocked in those aircraft in a short space of time.

The 2017 Vixen has 1700 hours. That’s less than 3 years. That’s a solid figure, especially when you have 30+ aircraft in the same fleet doing similar hours.

Seeks a bit off doesn't it 7700? Assuming 40 Aircraft (I think they have 50) have done similar hours, so 1700 x 40 that means 68,000hrs, says 402 students that had enrolled in 2018 which means about 169hrs for each student and yet only 6 have graduated. Seems a tad odd right? Also how was none of this detected by the Government prior to the complaint being raised? If only 6 graduated that should have put up all sorts of red flags for an abysmal pass rate!!

The name is Porter

14th Jan 2020, 08:37

Sounds a bit off doesn't it 7700? Assuming 40 Aircraft (I think they have 50) have done similar hours, so 1700 x 40 that means 68,000hrs, says 402 students that had enrolled in 2018 which means about 169 hrs for each student and yet only 6 have graduated. Seems a tad odd right?

I would like to see the hours flown to gain an RPC/RPL and how many extra blocks of time the students were bullied into buying out of their own money. Now before you go on about 'the students should stand up for their rights' have a think about the power imbalance that exists. I have seen it, I know what goes on in these environments

Also how was none of this detected by the Government prior to the complaint being raised? If only 6 graduated that should have put up all sorts of red flags for an abysmal pass rate!!

Have a think about any of the major frauds that have been perpetrated in this country and how many of them were 'detected' by Government. Pathetic, corrupt Australia.

I have an ex student dealing with significant mental health issues over this type of bull****, times that by 402 - 6 = 396 Soar Students.

I'm not going to let up on this bull****.

Squawk7700

14th Jan 2020, 08:46

There are also regular students outside of the vet-fee system including a regular poster here who saw the light and went elsewhere. You’d have to think that they were the small minority though.

This alleged system of upfront payments for the full 200 hours being required from Box Hill upon enrolment sounds interesting to say the least.

TXU

14th Jan 2020, 10:11

I would like to see the hours flown to gain an RPC/RPL and how many extra blocks of time the students were bullied into buying out of their own money. Now before you go on about 'the students should stand up for their rights' have a think about the power imbalance that exists. I have seen it, I know what goes on in these environments

Have a think about any of the major frauds that have been perpetrated in this country and how many of them were 'detected' by Government. Pathetic, corrupt Australia.

I have an ex student dealing with significant mental health issues over this type of bull****, times that by 402 - 6 = 396 Soar Students.

I'm not going to let up on this bull****.

This is exactly what happened.

Delay progress deliberately, dangle the carrot of the next phase/license infront of people and present them with an invoice to allow them to do the flight test to walk away with the license!

Has happened to plenty, some buckled and paid up. Some left and have finished/are in the process of finishing elsewhere at a greater cost out of principle! Most will let them win!

How it's taken this long to unravel so spectacularly is beyond me!

Clare Prop

14th Jan 2020, 11:19

One guy on the Pilots Lounge fb page said 100% of the students were on the VET loans.
This corruption geos all the way to the top, see the video with McCormack. "That's what this government is all about...Neel's doing a fantastic job" etc. There is no way that they didn't know what was going on, another massive money laundering exercise using VET loans and vulnerable aviation students with stars in their eyes.
Pride comes before a fall, and putting yourself on the rich list worth 66 million was probably not such a great idea because he can hardly plead bankruptcy three months later...can he?
RA-Aus must have been glad of 950 memberships, too.

I would make an offer for some of those avionics, they are probably worth more than the aircraft.

Okihara

14th Jan 2020, 17:01

Okihara

14th Jan 2020, 17:03

Just saying, those Foxbats might well be a real bonanza for Tristar... (no pun intended)

Elfarol99

14th Jan 2020, 23:15

So with all this... what happens to the poor students with fees paid up-front and courses un/under-delivered? Are they covered by Box Hill's Tuition Assurance?

Squawk7700

14th Jan 2020, 23:46

Probably the work of someone at LTF...
Found here with many other good ones: https://www.instagram.com/moorabbinairport/

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x800/79834880_2540025492922542_6527595302506486434_n_5a4965a813c8 c2749d2c49b513f89f40a1100252.jpg

Half of the Learn To Fly fleet looks to be laid up at Tooradin after off runway landings and whatever else caused an engine to have to be removed.

zanthrus

15th Jan 2020, 09:04

Get Neel’s passport cancelled. Both Australian and Indian so that he can’t scuttle back to India. Force him to face the music!

The name is Porter

15th Jan 2020, 10:18

Yes, think Puneet Puneet. Still chasing that bastard I think.

Deceiver

15th Jan 2020, 20:46

He bailed on someone else's passport though - no reason Neel couldn't do the same if he feared the consequences enough

Dangly Bits

15th Jan 2020, 21:43

I saw him yesterday.

The name is Porter

15th Jan 2020, 22:16

I saw him yesterday.

In a 7-11??

(not in a racial context, in an Elvis context!)

Dangly Bits

15th Jan 2020, 22:17

Nah Porter, he was in his Government paid for Porsche!

Superfly Slick Dick

15th Jan 2020, 22:23

Yes, think Puneet Puneet. Still chasing that bastard I think.
Who is Puneet Puneet? What happened there?

thorn bird

15th Jan 2020, 22:42

What I find incongruous in this whole shameful debacle is a Minister waffling to the media how great this school was while Crawford and his minions were busily dismantling an extremely safe, well run, compliant, training organisation, besmirching its architect, driving him into bankruptcy, along with a whole lot of other people, it’s just bizarre.

There is no doubt, I believe, CAsA and their inane regulations are responsible, driving up the cost of training for no measurable improvement in standards or safety, in fact the exact opposite has occurred.

CAsA of course will escape scrutiny, there’s nobody within the “Cantberra” bubble with the balls to take them on, the Mystic of safety is too strong a hand for them to play, just look at the road toll over Christmas and hardly a murmur from Joe Public, then consider the frenzy when an aircraft kills someone.

There has been a lot of press recently alluding to the incompetence of the ruling elite to administer the countries affairs and finances, a glimmer of light perhaps, but somehow, I think the murky mandarins will prevail.

The name is Porter

15th Jan 2020, 22:47

Who is Puneet Puneet? What happened there?

International student, driving whilst drunk, killed a pedestrian. Skipped the country. Has virtually destroyed his own mental and physical health in his bid to hide. Considering Australia's absolute pathetic sentencing record he would have done about 18 months. Has spent years avoiding 'justice'

The name is Porter

15th Jan 2020, 22:49

Nah Porter, he was in his Government paid for Porsche!

I bet the SOB doesn't put that up for sale!

aroa

15th Jan 2020, 23:18

Thorny is right onto it.
CAsA is a very discriminatory bunch of MFs when it comes to using the regs.
Some commit blue murder and CAsA is disinterested or its a "mate"...nothing happens
If yre an individual or 'small business', and vulnerable, **** and destruction can be upon you.
Many you can ask about that,!..there's lots of Quadrios out there in GA land.

When the upper eshcelon in that bastard place are happy to engage in cronyism and corruption, perverting the course of justice, abusing their power, denying due process and natural justice and covering their arses with false and defamatory statements...what hope have we got.?
SCMo reckons hes going ..'deal with agencies and boards'...with the strength of the bureaucrazy, he'll be like a ping-pong ball off a brick wall. All the very best with that Mr PM.
Ive put a letter togther to him giving some details of whats going on with CAsA but no doubt minders will subvert all that. Chuck in a few more letters y'all
As I was told by some Miniscule in the past.. we're very lucky really, Oz is mostly flat, the wx is mostly good and we have the best safety record in the world.
Yes, in their political Fairy Land...but not out in the real world.

kaz3g

16th Jan 2020, 05:17

International student, driving whilst drunk, killed a pedestrian. Skipped the country. Has virtually destroyed his own mental and physical health in his bid to hide. Considering Australia's absolute pathetic sentencing record he would have done about 18 months. Has spent years avoiding 'justice'

perhaps try 8 to 10 years before he absconded.

The name is Porter

16th Jan 2020, 05:35

perhaps try 8 to 10 years before he absconded.

kaz, I have NEVER seen anyone in this country do anywhere near 8 to 10 years for this. Sure, the sentence may have been that, but non-parole period, probs a couple of years at most.

nonsense

16th Jan 2020, 06:00

kaz, I have NEVER seen anyone in this country do anywhere near 8 to 10 years for this. Sure, the sentence may have been that, but non-parole period, probs a couple of years at most.

Puneet Puneet absconded before sentencing. The fact that he was allowed bail between leading guilty and sentencing suggests he wasn't facing an enormous sentence.

Who is Puneet Puneet? What happened there?

In 2008, at age 19, driving with only a learners permit, with a blood alcohol level of 0.165, at 150kph on the edge of the Melbourne CBD in what was a 60 zone and is now a 40 zone, Puneet^2 crashed his car, killing 19-year-old Dean Hofstee and seriously injured 20-year-old Clancy Coker.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/5bf518594cf7c2921f23724c7fea9809_78b50a5bc24bda9012d03c7c56d 43eea01307a4f.jpg

He pleaded guilty to culpable driving (essentially manslaughter with a vehicle), then while on bail awaiting sentencing, having surrendered his own passport, he buggered off back to India using a mates passport.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/653x1000/puneet_red_notice_f7bef9aa27c26ad16d13e80feb23be1fc69a806c.p ng

He has now spent 11 years in India resisting extradition for sentencing and for prosecution on misuse of travel documents.

He claims various major ailments and insists he cannot get justice in Australia because of racism, that he would be killed in Australia, and has quite possibly already sat around in Indian prison system since he was arrested shortly before his wedding at age 24 for longer than he would have been imprisoned in Australia, had he done the right thing.

Now aged 30, his problems just keep getting worse. There is little sympathy for him here in Melbourne...

https://www.theage.com.au/world/indian-fugitive-hitrun-driver-puneet-puneets-return-to-australia-delayed-by-court-20131213-hv5i8.html
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/indian-man-puneet-puneet-guilty-of-hitandrun-death-granted-bail-ahead-of-extradition-hearing-report-20150617-ghpq85.html
https://www.news.com.au/news/national/learner-driver-coward-in-fatal-hitandrun-refusing-to-cooperate-with-authorities/news-story/c0eeb3dcb3c008300982c656651d677d

Claims he will be killed if extradited. (https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/i-will-be-killed-puneet-puneet-wails-in-delhi-court-20180601-p4zj0t.html)

See also: Malka Leifer...

kaz3g

16th Jan 2020, 07:44

kaz, I have NEVER seen anyone in this country do anywhere near 8 to 10 years for this. Sure, the sentence may have been that, but non-parole period, probs a couple of years at most.

perhaps you need to get to court more often.

the average sentence for culpable causing death in Victoria in 2017-2018 was 7 years 8 months.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/snapshots/225-culpable-driving-causing-death

parole might be available when 2/3 sentence has been completed, especially if convicted is released on a community corrections order as well.

the aggravated circumstances in your example would attract 8-10 in my view.

kaz3g

16th Jan 2020, 07:54

Nonsense...I don’t know why he was granted bail but suggest it was because he was not judged to be a fight risk by VicPol ( no passport), hid young age just outside of the age to be sentenced as a minor, and the then presumption of bail as one of the few rights we have under the law (innocent unruly proven guilty).

attitudes towards culpable driving have hardened significantly in recent years...nothing much happened at all in the early 1960s when I was a young idiot on the road. Everyone drank, no RBT, had to prove drunk, not much more than a loss of licence if actually caught.

no excuses, just an explanation.

thunderbird five

16th Jan 2020, 08:05

7 5 0 0

again

The name is Porter

16th Jan 2020, 08:22

perhaps you need to get to court more often.

I've spent enough time in court rooms over the last couple of years thanks. Enough time to know that you'll get justice in Australia if you can afford to buy it. Enough time to know that if ya gunna commit a criminal offence make it a white collar jobby. Do some body or group over for a couple of mill, spend a year or two in an open door farm, well worth the fraud.

So 2/3 of 7 years is 4 years and 8 months which is a bit different to 8-10 years.

The justice system in this country is a pathetic joke, as I'm sure we'll find out real quick here.

Chopz

16th Jan 2020, 11:05

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/soar-flight-students-reassured/news-story/accaf289fe2d731a1f6592af0d108208&ved=0ahUKEwi3n62ziIjnAhWipOkKHeLXBRgQyM8BCCgwAA&usg=AOvVaw3xI0xPv5alTkhgLi4d3vJ5&ampcf=1

Clare Prop

16th Jan 2020, 12:36

Hundreds of students affected by the decision to revoke Soar Aviation’s registered training organisation status will not have to restart their commercial pilot licence training from scratch.

The Victorian-based flight training school, which has bases at Moorabbin and Bankstown in Sydney, was informed this month of the decision by the Australian Skills Quality Authority.

Box Hill Institute, which had partnered with Soar to deliver a diploma of aviation (commercial pilot licence), will also be stripped of the authority to offer that course from February 24.
Read Next

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/69afdabc8f69583f25508b2d99c90b31?width=320 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/paul-mcnamee-sees-echoes-of-pat-cash-in-the-appeal-of-nick-kyrgios/news-story/7681e1ec9d0e11a0411ba2b8a84c3701)
Kyrgios set to Cash in on elevated status (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/paul-mcnamee-sees-echoes-of-pat-cash-in-the-appeal-of-nick-kyrgios/news-story/7681e1ec9d0e11a0411ba2b8a84c3701)
Courtney Walsh

ASQA’s decision followed an audit of the course and Soar Aviation’s flight training, which found a lack of compliance in several areas, including appropriate assessment processes and practices and meeting the requirements of the aviation training package.

Despite concerns about the quality of the training, an ASQA spokesman assured students their efforts to date would not go unrecognised.

“Students who have completed units of competency will be issued a statement of attainment by Box Hill Institute which will be recognised if they enrol with a new RTO that has the same aviation qualification/s on its scope,” said the spokesman.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority also confirmed the students’ flying hours recorded in their logbooks would not be invalid as a result of Soar’s predicament.

However, only training undertaken in VH-registered aircraft with a CASA-accredited instructor would count towards a CPL.

Soar Aviation this week listed a number of its aircraft for sale. A spokeswoman said the sales were part of a realignment of the company’s fleet and workforce, following on from the ASQA decision.

The company has sought an internal review of the decision and rejected claims it was non-*compliant.

In just over three years of operation in partnership with Box Hill Institute, more than 900 students enrolled in the two-year CPL course but fewer than 20 were recorded as graduating.

Robyn Ironside

Clare Prop

16th Jan 2020, 12:37

Recognition of prior learning...hmm there will need to be some brave HOOs out there.

Ixixly

16th Jan 2020, 13:05

Clare Prop, I don't think the quality of their training was necessarily the question here, just the fact that they drained them of every dollar they possibly could via the Tax Payer!!
I'd advise anyone here reading to grab their Log Book and Training Records from Soar/Box Hill ASAP, these have a tendency to go missing when Flying Schools go belly up...
Also make sure they've been checked and if required have been signed by a valid instructor to certify the hours as being true and correct (Is that still a thing these days?!)

Also, to be perfectly clear, I also don't believe their training was necessarily that great either!! Doesn't mean the Students that have trained there aren't any good though.

Chopz

16th Jan 2020, 13:29

Recognition of prior learning...hmm there will need to be some brave HOOs out there.

Thanks for the article Clare Prop.

I was seriously considering this course come August. Looks like I am one of the lucky ones.

Okihara

16th Jan 2020, 17:37

Only time flown on VH registered aircraft would count? Doesn't/didn't Soar force its students down the RA track to get the RPC first? If so, then I reckon that most students who haven't attained the certificate yet won't be able to get all that much counted towards the required CPL experience, would they? Or can they possibly transfer RA hours to a new operator and get their RPC there?

I hope for current students that they'll do the right thing and sign their logbooks without bringing more shame upon themselves.

Squawk7700

16th Jan 2020, 18:49

That article is an opinion only and does not mean it is correct.

I would be inclined to think that if it was a 150 hour integrated course, then it would be correct, however it’s not; it’s 200 and Raaus hours still count.

kaz3g

16th Jan 2020, 19:30

I've spent enough time in court rooms over the last couple of years thanks. Enough time to know that you'll get justice in Australia if you can afford to buy it. Enough time to know that if ya gunna commit a criminal offence make it a white collar jobby. Do some body or group over for a couple of mill, spend a year or two in an open door farm, well worth the fraud.
.

We are in complete agreement here; postcode justice is real and rich people get the best representation their money can buy. When companies offend they claim legal expenses against tax.

kaz3g

16th Jan 2020, 19:37

Recognition of prior learning...hmm there will need to be some brave HOOs out there.

However, only training undertaken in VH-registered aircraft with a CASA-accredited instructor would count towards a CPL

Just saw Sparks post...

0ttoL

16th Jan 2020, 20:41

However, only training undertaken in VH-registered aircraft with a CASA-accredited instructor would count towards a CPL

Just saw Sparks post...

Reading between the lines here, it may imply that there were instructors who WEREN'T CASA-accredited and that could/would invalidate anything that they have signed off on.
That could be a horrible situation for students.

The name is Porter

16th Jan 2020, 21:20

just the fact that they drained them of every dollar they possibly could via the Tax Payer!!

That, and significant sums of money from the student pilots own pocket. If this is happening you could suppose that either the training delivered is not up to standard or the student shouldn't be on the course.

The ASQA findings are the tip of the iceberg, they are limited in scope as far as their investigation goes. One hopes there are some well qualified lawyers on this class action, if they know and understand aviation the students and aviation industry are in for a treat.

Squawk7700

16th Jan 2020, 21:25

I’m waiting to see the words “Friday fax” here somewhere.

DiamondWannabe

16th Jan 2020, 22:01

Superfly Slick Dick

16th Jan 2020, 23:43

I’m waiting to see the words “Friday fax” here somewhere.
What does that mean?

Kiwiconehead

17th Jan 2020, 01:02

What does that mean?

Usually when the old CASA show cause notices arrive in ones in tray.

Sunfish

17th Jan 2020, 03:19

It’s the lawyers equivalent of farting in someone’s face. Send a fax on Friday afternoon 4.45pm. The recipient can’t respond or object or get to court before close of business. It ruins their weekend. I’ve had it done to me by Macquarie Bank - sleazy bastards.

zanthrus

17th Jan 2020, 04:52

Simply ignore the fax. F#ck em!

Squawk7700

17th Jan 2020, 08:54

Some more funny memes appearing here and very relevant to the moment. I’ve got some ideas for a couple of new ones if someone smarter than me wants to contact me :-)

https://www.instagram.com/moorabbinairport/

DW - your PM’s are full

mcoates

17th Jan 2020, 10:16

Some of these are VERY FUNNY, great imagination !

Squawk7700

17th Jan 2020, 20:36

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/student-pilots-consider-class-action-against-melbourne-flying-school-20200116-p53s7n.html

Just in...

Ixixly

18th Jan 2020, 11:30

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/student-pilots-consider-class-action-against-melbourne-flying-school-20200116-p53s7n.html

Just in...

And we thought the only flooding happening was around Brisbane and the East Coast today, turns out the flood gates are opening down in Moorabbin too!

Okihara

18th Jan 2020, 13:09

And we thought the only flooding happening was around Brisbane and the East Coast today, turns out the flood gates are opening down in Moorabbin too!

... schadenfreude!
Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/628660-box-hill-tafe-drops-aviation-diploma-6.html#post10665652)
https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...16-p53s7n.html (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/student-pilots-consider-class-action-against-melbourne-flying-school-20200116-p53s7n.html)

Just in...
$77,000 and no commercial licence :ugh:

Poor kid. Such a waste of time and money for a 31 year old student who arguably would want to fast track her training at this point in her life.

I'm amazed by the fact that so many people are willing to pile up so much debt without doing their due diligence. That's especially true at Moorabbin where you have a dozen operators all doing the same thing. I'd expect students to have the awareness to wonder how training is done at other schools and inquire if they suspect something to be amiss with their own operator. This young woman signed up in 2017 which should have given her 2-3 years of time to spot red flags. Going by the many accounts that were given on Soar, I find it surprising that so many students stuck with it.

Soar Aviation still holds a certificate for CASR part 141 flight training, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said. All flights recorded in a student's logbook remain valid and can be counted towards training elsewhere.

Hard to make sense of CASA's behaviour as a regulator here considering what happened to Glen Buckley's organisation while this Soar circus was allow to unfold in parallel.

zanthrus

18th Jan 2020, 14:58

Maybe the Indian CASA FOI was a reason? Nishi or whatever he is called. One of Neel's scummy mates?

YPJT

18th Jan 2020, 15:00

Hopefully his passport is on the watch list

YPJT

18th Jan 2020, 15:03

There is an FOI named Nishi, definitely not Indian though. And having dealt with him I'd be very surprised if he was tied up with this sh1t

The name is Porter

18th Jan 2020, 20:18

That's especially true at Moorabbin where you have a dozen operators all doing the same thing.

There are nowhere near a dozen operators doing FEE-HELP on Moorabbin airport. Oxford in a big way, The Aeroclub in a limited way. And Soar, BUT NOT ANYMORE!

Sunfish

18th Jan 2020, 20:30

Ixixly

18th Jan 2020, 21:48

Okihara, I believe this issue has been brewing for a while now and the complaints were put in a lot longer ago than you'd think so wasn't just sitting there for 2 - 3 years and the way VET-FEE works it can be easy to end up a giant chunk of debt in very quickly as well plus the way it's setup is that people feel once they've made that commitment they're stuck with it and have no other options. It's a crap system overall to be honest, it would have been better if they'd provided a much wider range of Flight Training Providers that a Student could choose from and allow market forces to work things out better rather than a select few flashy ones with money that end up with near monopolies.

YPJT

19th Jan 2020, 07:33

Most flights flown are in VH registered aircraft. Only the testing / progress flights (first solo) are in RA registered aircraft.

is it just me or does this make no practical sense at all?

Cloudee

19th Jan 2020, 07:42

is it just me or does this make no practical sense at all?
Yes, perhaps it was the other way around.

UnderneathTheRadar

19th Jan 2020, 11:17

I blame CASA. The stench of what was going on at Soar must have been overpowering. I’m mean I’m not completely stupid, but even I could see that my school was less than ideal within awhile of graduating with a PPL. RMIT similarly stunk to high heaven.

As much as that would help with your anger management Sunny, I can't see how CASA are at fault here? CASA don't care if it takes you 200 or 2000 hours to get a CPL (and I actually don't think they should either). Collectively we bemoan that CASA have no mandate to promote aviation - they are the 'safety' authority and not responsible for making aviation viable or even fair. What Soar and RMIT have or haven't done for their students may be unconscionable, I can't see any evidence that it breaches the act, CASRs etc (putting aside who was flying what plane with what license/medical - and not knowing the whole RAA vs CASA story but assuming it is legal if done properly).

These students will have their best chance against Box Hill TAFE - it would seem pretty obvious that they have a duty of care to their students with respect to the flight training organisation they've partnered with. Even a basic level of due diligence should have set off alarm bells.
Soar will go out of business quietly - the money will already have left these shores. The students will get something back out-of-court from the TAFE (but not much) and very very few will ever get their CPL and the cycle will start again - check back again in 5 years time for the next instalment.

FEE-Help should be abolished. Aviation is expensive, these scams make it more expensive and waste the tax-payers money terribly. I'd wager that a fair number of the students caught up in this are now unlikely to ever hit the income threshold to repay the debt or if they do, they'll be saddled with it all their lives and never pay it back. They won't be able (or willing) to go further into debt - for this course or any other - and so won't likely have the same earning potential they could have.

Back to the old days of only rich kids learning to fly? With very few exceptions, most of the pilots I know who made a career of it either worked their backsides off to pay for lessons or came via the military. Add to that cadetships from airlines (based on fair t&cs - difference being airlines have an incentive to get it right and so should recruit properly) and as CASA continue to kill off regional GA then there shouldn't be a pilot shortage....

UTR

Okihara

19th Jan 2020, 12:34

[...] plus the way it's setup is that people feel once they've made that commitment they're stuck with it and have no other options. [...]
GA is in such a dysfunctional state on so many levels at the moment :ugh:

Meanwhile, Soar gives the impression that it's business as usual https://www.instagram.com/p/B7e5MBPBL-U/
Alex’s achievement marks the 50th CPL completion under the BHI/Soar Diploma
50 is a fair bit off the 19 that the other article was mentioning.

Mosman

19th Jan 2020, 19:21

The newspaper article said 19 graduates as at April 2019. So if they are up to 50 now then they have completed an additional 30 students in 9 months. Not many given they have had over 400 students this year.

The article also said that only 2 of the 19 were novices (ie; had started from scratch.) I wonder how many of the 50 have gone all the way with Soar.

I would be even more interested to know how many of the 59 have a job in aviation.

djpil

19th Jan 2020, 20:04

is it just me or does this make no practical sense at all?It seems to me that it does indeed make practical sense. They certainly couldn't do it the other way around.

Sunfish

19th Jan 2020, 22:33

UTR, you are correct. CASA has no statutory responsibility for the commercial conduct of SOAR. Morally ?

Squawk7700

19th Jan 2020, 23:03

UTR, you are correct. CASA has no statutory responsibility for the commercial conduct of SOAR. Morally ?

You’d be opening a can of worms if you’re asking for CASA to become the moral police as well.

It’s a competency based model. If it takes 1 or 10 lessons for the student to reach that level, then they are happy regardless. All they care about is that the ATO’s signature is on the required piece of paper or online form and all of the requirements have been met. It’s caveat emptor.

Superfly Slick Dick

20th Jan 2020, 04:34

All they care about is that the ATO’s signature is on the required piece of paper or online form and all of the requirements have been met. It’s caveat emptor.

The what now?
There haven’t been any ATOs for a long time now.
You mean ‘Flight Examiner’

Squawk7700

20th Jan 2020, 04:48

Showing my age. The oldies know what I meant :-)

Lead Balloon

20th Jan 2020, 05:11

The real oldies will know what ATOs were called before ATOs were ‘invented’. Everything old becomes new again...

Clare Prop

20th Jan 2020, 06:35

Actually to be really pedantic the HOO is the one who signs the form, FE can't do the test without that signature. NO idea how it works in RA Aus though.

Superfly Slick Dick

20th Jan 2020, 07:15

Actually to be really pedantic the HOO is the one who signs the form, FE can't do the test without that signature. NO idea how it works in RA Aus though.

Well, yes the person under CASR 61.235 (does not have to be the HOO) has some responsibility for recommending, as does the flight examiner that ultimately conducts the flight test, and issues a pass or fail assessment.
The person under CASR 61.235 and the flight examiner can be the same person in some cases, not including CPL tests.

Kiwiconehead

20th Jan 2020, 07:39

NO idea how it works in RA Aus though.

Whoever buys the WeetBix?

Stikman

20th Jan 2020, 11:00

Actually to be really pedantic the HOO is the one who signs the form, FE can't do the test without that signature. NO idea how it works in RA Aus though.
CFI does all the tests and signs the papers, unless it's for another CFI. Then it's an Examiner of Airmen....or something.

The name is Porter

20th Jan 2020, 18:00

These students will have their best chance against Box Hill TAFE - it would seem pretty obvious that they have a duty of care to their students with respect to the flight training organisation they've partnered with. Even a basic level of due diligence should have set off alarm bells.

Yep, back in my apprenticeship days, TAFE was fully government funded, free of commercial interest, free of greed. They were great days, taught by ex-tradies (with mangled limbs and bad backs). I had the great fortune of doing my CPL theory at Sydney TAFE, they were all crusty old bastards, current and recently retired pilots. Contrast that with what's happening at TAFE's now.

Soar will go out of business quietly - the money will already have left these shores. The students will get something back out-of-court from the TAFE (but not much) and very very few will ever get their CPL and the cycle will start again - check back again in 5 years time for the next instalment.

So true, the Australian way of doing business, soft white collar corruption at it's best.

FEE-Help should be abolished. Aviation is expensive, these scams make it more expensive and waste the tax-payers money terribly. I'd wager that a fair number of the students caught up in this are now unlikely to ever hit the income threshold to repay the debt or if they do, they'll be saddled with it all their lives and never pay it back.

It has it's place in not for profit educational institutions. Name me one of those in Australia these days. Even if there were you'd still have to deal with the rampant corruption and white collar thieves.

Back to the old days of only rich kids learning to fly? With very few exceptions, most of the pilots I know who made a career of it either worked their backsides off to pay for lessons or came via the military.

And those same people were patient, they knew they weren't going to get that shiny jet NOW. And didn't whinge when they weren't upgraded in under 10 years.

Superfly Slick Dick

20th Jan 2020, 20:36

CFI does all the tests and signs the papers, unless it's for another CFI. Then it's an Examiner of Airmen....or something.

No, you are categorically wrong.

Squawk7700

20th Jan 2020, 21:14

No, you are categorically wrong.

That comment was likely in relation to RA-Aus ops.

Stikman

20th Jan 2020, 21:45

No, you are categorically wrong.
How so? In the RAAus world, the Junior Instructor can't do anything except recommend someone for first solo, and send them on subsequent solos.
The Senior Instructor can send first solo.
The CFI does flight testing for RPC and Nav endo.
There are no ATOs or FEs as such..

Superfly Slick Dick

20th Jan 2020, 23:18

How so? In the RAAus world, the Junior Instructor can't do anything except recommend someone for first solo, and send them on subsequent solos.
The Senior Instructor can send first solo.
The CFI does flight testing for RPC and Nav endo.
There are no ATOs or FEs as such..

My sincere apologies. I thought you were talking about GA. Disregard..

Framcicles

21st Jan 2020, 23:59

For some information - There is a difference between obtaining your CPL licence and graduating the course. To graduate you also need to complete one elective unit outside the CPL licence. At BHI/SOAR they have chosen for you "Operate In the Circuit at Night".

With many students going over hours its easy to see why they complete their licence and then do not finish the night flying - its extra cost to receive for just the diploma.

Squawk7700

22nd Jan 2020, 00:08

swells

22nd Jan 2020, 01:13

Can you complete the diploma and not have the CPL though?

This is a core (required) unit
https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/AVILIC0003

The name is Porter

22nd Jan 2020, 01:16

Can you complete the diploma and not have the CPL though?

Oh yes you can! If people signing up for these courses knew this was the case, maybe some people wouldn't sign up for the course.

Framcicles

22nd Jan 2020, 02:19

Can you complete the diploma and not have the CPL though?

Pretty sure you only need to be signed off as "Ready for the test" by passing pre licence to actually complete the unit, not pass the CPL flight test. Therefore in theory you don't. Im not 100% on that but its my understanding.

The name is Porter

22nd Jan 2020, 09:46

Pretty sure you only need to be signed off as "Ready for the test" by passing pre licence to actually complete the unit, not pass the CPL flight test. Therefore in theory you don't.

Correct.

I'm not 100% on that but it's my understanding.

You are now 100% full bottle.

Swift13

23rd Jan 2020, 00:42

Does anyone have access to the Herald Sun article 'Safety team closing in on cause of Moorabbin Airport accident'? If so, can you please provide the text?

nonsense

23rd Jan 2020, 03:25

Does anyone have access to the Herald Sun article 'Safety team closing in on cause of Moorabbin Airport accident'? If so, can you please provide the text?
I just googled the headline above and opened the article straight from google (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjkm5Sw75jnAhXDV30KHSpJCYwQFjABegQICxAF&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fleader%2Finner-south%2Fsafety-team-closing-in-on-cause-of-moorabbin-airport-accident%2Fnews-story%2F2d885b0bf4c3d464604ff1ac1e57d36e&usg=AOvVaw05UY6CfIDpF738tOdq7wcM). You may need to clear any Herald-Sun cookies first for this to work.

Egipps

23rd Jan 2020, 03:49

I just googled the headline above and opened the article straight from google (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjkm5Sw75jnAhXDV30KHSpJCYwQFjABegQICxAF&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fleader%2Finner-south%2Fsafety-team-closing-in-on-cause-of-moorabbin-airport-accident%2Fnews-story%2F2d885b0bf4c3d464604ff1ac1e57d36e&usg=AOvVaw05UY6CfIDpF738tOdq7wcM). You may need to clear any Herald-Sun cookies first for this to work.
Cache cleared. And doesn't work for me. Straight to subscription page.

Clare Prop

23rd Jan 2020, 03:52

Can't get past the paywall. Closing in? Usually they take at least two years to do a report

Stickshift3000

23rd Jan 2020, 04:57

Article is subscription only - however the herald sun lets each device access their articles a certain number of times before the paywall pops up.

I doubt there’s much substance to the story, but happy to be surprised!

djpil

23rd Jan 2020, 06:30

Tech info in the article as per info on the ATSB website

nonsense

23rd Jan 2020, 15:45

Safety team closing in on cause of Moorabbin Airport accident
Brittany Goldsmith, Moorabbin Kingston Leader
January 22, 2020 10:30am

The small plane that crashed at Moorabbin Airport in December pitched up steeply and twisted just before the smash, investigators believe.

The student pilot, aged in his 20s, was taken to Alfred Hospital where he was treated for serious head and lower body injuries but has recently returned home.

Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators are in the process of data recovery and are likely to soon have an answer as to how the student’s Bristell S-LSA aircraft flipped as he practised touch-and-go landings on December 12.

The plane landed on its roof, trapping the young pilot inside.

“During final approach for a touch and go landing, the aircraft is reported to have pitched up steeply and yawed resulting in collision with terrain … the aircraft was substantially damaged,” the ATSB said in a statement online.

“The ATSB will examine the accident site and the aircraft wreckage, interview air traffic control and other relevant personnel, and conduct data recovery.

“Should a critical safety issue be identified during the course of the investigation, the ATSB will immediately notify relevant stakeholders so appropriate and timely safety action can be taken.”

Yesterday an alarm flagged another plane in distress at the airport.

The plane landed safely and no-one at the airport would comment on reports a pilot ran into trouble near Bundoora Pde just after midday.

There have been two accidents in busy airspace in less than two years.

In 2018, Mornington Peninsula pilot Anthony Liddel was remembered for his heroic efforts as he dodged houses before his aircraft smashed into a suburban street in Mordialloc.

And in 2019 a pilot was lucky to walk away with minor injuries when a plane crash landed at Capital Golf Course on Centre Dandenong Rd.

There had also been a plane crash at the golf course in 2010.

The ATSB says it will release a report when its investigation into December’s crash has been finalised.

[email protected]

Central Skies

28th Jan 2020, 20:18

In a 7-11??

(not in a racial context, in an Elvis context!)

Too funny. Just GOLD :O

Clare Prop

29th Jan 2020, 00:16

There had also been a plane crash at the golf course in 2010.

Was that the one in the Warrior where the media said the pilot had voluntarily jettisoned his wings?

0ttoL

29th Jan 2020, 03:39

There had also been a plane crash at the golf course in 2010.

Was that the one in the Warrior where the media said the pilot had voluntarily jettisoned his wings?

There was one down on the golf course in June 2019 too. RAA registered Jabiru
https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/622573-plane-down-capital-golf-course-near-moorabbin.html

Clare Prop

29th Jan 2020, 08:28

My bad, it was 2007. https://www.theage.com.au/national/lucky-escape-in-flight-crash-20071214-ge6i9e.html

Egipps

29th Jan 2020, 22:00

There was one down on the golf course in June 2019 too. RAA registered Jabiru
https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/622573-plane-down-capital-golf-course-near-moorabbin.html

This one was beautifully handled by the pilot. We were flying in on 35L when they landed on 35 golf course. Pilot and pax unhurt and minimal damage to the aircraft.

Squawk7700

30th May 2020, 11:18

https://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au/court-decisions/case-list/box-hill-institute-student-pilot-class-action

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/box-hill-institute-slapped-with-flight-school-class-action-20200529-p54xu8.html

More fun for Soar...

Stickshift3000

30th May 2020, 11:45

Wow, that is some list of alleged breaches.

Wondering if Glen is reading this? :E

Squawk7700

30th May 2020, 22:02

Crikey, you’re not wrong! I just had a semi-decent read and it sounds very bad and un-defendable, based solely on my visits to the courtroom and episodes of Judge Judy.

Seems they are really kicking up a stink about being induced to join RAAus which is interesting because many in their fleet were RAAus registered. Unqualified instructors doesn’t sound too flash either, if proven.

Oh well, innocent until proven guilty I guess!

pull-up-terrain

31st May 2020, 00:26

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/box-hill-institute-slapped-with-flight-school-class-action-20200529-p54xu8.html

“Gordon Legal principal Rachel Jones said out of the 250 students who have registered interest in the class action, she was aware of only five who have obtained their commercial pilot licences and three had studied at other institutions.”

I find these numbers rather disturbing...

I’m a bit out of the loop with what happens at the large flight schools, but are these statistics similar for other flight schools? I’m assuming a large proportion of the students would be on these government training loans (HECS/FEE-HELP whatever they call it)? I think the government really needs to take a closer look at these government loans and the training organisations who are receiving taxpayer money.

djpil

31st May 2020, 01:50

I just had a semi-decent read and it sounds very bad and un-defendable, based solely on my visits to the courtroom and episodes of Judge Judy.I just had a quick look and I don't watch Judge Judy so please help - there was a lot of fluff there. Even rudimentary training records would dispense with many of those issues. As for the RPC shortcut and standards - CASA accepts it as equal. Not enough aeroplanes - really? What are the issues that the lawyers will really get their teeth into?

Squawk7700

31st May 2020, 02:52

I just had a quick look and I don't watch Judge Judy so please help - there was a lot of fluff there. Even rudimentary training records would dispense with many of those issues. As for the RPC shortcut and standards - CASA accepts it as equal. Not enough aeroplanes - really? What are the issues that the lawyers will really get their teeth into?

I’m presuming that because the materials provided did not allegedly meet the standards, allegedly unqualified instructors, no aircraft available (I’m assuming they have specific types and don’t class them all as the same, Eg basic and advanced etc), but the allegation that only 5 got their CPL versus where some other schools are approaching 100% then that will speak volumes. There is clearly a major issue based on the numbers, but as you say where is the “meat?” Probably a combination of all of the allegations, but nothing single. Many will be watching with interest!

Ixixly

31st May 2020, 03:43

I have a feeling that the negligence, unqualified instructors etc... is just a bit of "Filler" to give the Lawsuit some more teeth, these sorts of things wouldn't be handled in a Court Case but by CASA themselves and if CASA were clearly not doing their job then I'd suspect they'd find themselves as a Party to this claim as well. This will come down to Money and the practices they used to extract that money from these Students without delivering sufficient value. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of their Students were found to have hit the limit of the money provided under their Government funding and almost always falling short of Standards then being promised they could get there "If they just spent a little bit more". This is a practice I believe was already brought to light and this Lawsuit will be the mechanism by which they claw that money back and rightfully so IMHO.

pilotbm

31st May 2020, 07:34

“Gordon Legal principal Rachel Jones said out of the 250 students who have registered interest in the class action, she was aware of only five who have obtained their commercial pilot licences and three had studied at other institutions.”

I find these numbers rather disturbing...

Those numbers are totally misleading.
The lawyer is making out the school has only had 5 graduates, which is totally false. Over 65 CPL graduates have completed the Box Hill diploma and passed CPL flight tests.

A big portion of the 200+ registered by Gordon have only studied at Soar/Box Hill for less than 2 years - which means they would never have completed the course at this point anyway. Plenty more graduates at both campuses are very close to completing their CPL.

Soar/BHI’s biggest mistake is signing up people who never had the aptitude or attitude to study their way their way to a CPL - thinking they can rock up to 2 x 3 hour classes each week, and be presented with a CPL at the end of the 2 years regardless of their effort.

Sunfish

31st May 2020, 08:41

No Squawk, it isn’t “innocent until proven guilty”. That standard applies to criminal cases. This is a civil case and from memory, the standard is “on the balance of probabilities”.

Djpil and Squawk, IANAL, but my educated guess (having copped a commercial lawsuit years ago) is that the case will revolve around two allegations; that SOAR and Box Hill were knowingly and deliberately not acting “in good faith” in discharging their responsibilities under the contracts, and secondly, the training provided was knowingly sub standard and not fit for purpose.

The key to this is the question of “good faith” (there are various levels of good faith right up to absolute good faith) which is a legal requirement for a contract to be binding - both parties need to act in good faith, in other words, that they both intend to the best of their abilities to honestly and completely deliver their side of the bargain. That includes a requirement that both parties must trust each other and deal honestly with each other.

I suggest that if half of what the students allege is true, they will have little trouble proving on the balance of probabilities that Box Hill and Soar were not acting in good faith.

‘’My guess is that Box Hill will settle out of court. Otherwise all their courses will be tarred with the same brush.

Lawyers please correct me.

Squawk7700

31st May 2020, 08:59

No Squawk, it isn’t “innocent until proven guilty”. That standard applies to criminal cases. This is a civil case and from memory, the standard is “on the balance of probabilities”.

Sorry Sunfish to be so flippant with my terminology, that’s my policing career showing through. I usually dumb down the technical legal legal jargon when speaking to those outside of those professions because “on the balance of probabilities” or “SORG” or “BORG” aren’t easily explained to others. The old adage “innocent until prove guilty works for me.”

You’d be an entertaining field contact for your average plod to come across down the street with your Jedi mind tricks and all.

Sunfish

31st May 2020, 10:44

Yes Squawk, but I wouldn’t dare play “jedi mind tricks” on a police officer. That is a very fast way to get a smack in the mouth. In any case I know SFA about criminal law, something that is regularly pointed out to me by my police and judicial acquaintances.

My experience is that universities are gutless when it comes to lawsuits. Box Hill will probably settle. The pass rate for the students says it all. Unless the students were sub human their pass rates should be the same average as other schools. After all, flying isn’t rocket science is it? They could teach me to fly, and you.

Squawk7700

31st May 2020, 11:36

After all, flying isn’t rocket science is it? They could teach me to fly, and you.

Please don’t put me in a bucket with you.

zanthrus

31st May 2020, 13:17

Sunfish, The Pigs can't give you a smack in the mouth. that is assault.

Sunfish

31st May 2020, 20:29

Please don’t put me in a bucket with you.

Thank you Squawk, I don’t.

Squawk7700

31st May 2020, 22:33

Sunfish, The Pigs can't give you a smack in the mouth. that is assault.

You clearly haven’t met him yet! Many here have been giving him a virtual smack in the face for a long time.

lowballer

31st May 2020, 22:54

Ndegi

1st Jun 2020, 02:12

[/Soar/BHI’s biggest mistake is signing up people who never had the aptitude or attitude to study their way their way to a CPL - thinking they can rock up to 2 x 3 hour classes each week, and be presented with a CPL at the end of the 2 years regardless of their effort.]

This point is quite valid and I think it has been raised before that CASA are not interested in whether the candidate takes 150 or 300 hours to pass the flight test, as long as they meet the standard. The problem is the expectation of the students, that they will be a commercial pilot after XXX hours of flight training.

Regarding the schools with 100% success rates. CPL candidates are carefully screened academically and given flight assessments before being accepted into the CPL course. Their parents are often involved in the final decision making and the financial commitment is explained so that it is clearly understood by all. Where a 100% pass rate is achieved, those candidates did not always pass on first go and often resit exams and/or flight tests. I understand that there is a difference between overseas and local students with the former blitzing the theory exams while Australian students often have a better affinity with physical control of the aircraft.

pilotbm

1st Jun 2020, 07:30

got a source?
Soar has photos of graduates on their social media - Instagram has an album full of them. All named and easily searchable via LinkedIn, Facebook etc.

I know a number of the graduates personally

Ixixly

1st Jun 2020, 12:16

Those numbers are totally misleading.
The lawyer is making out the school has only had 5 graduates, which is totally false. Over 65 CPL graduates have completed the Box Hill diploma and passed CPL flight tests.

A big portion of the 200+ registered by Gordon have only studied at Soar/Box Hill for less than 2 years - which means they would never have completed the course at this point anyway. Plenty more graduates at both campuses are very close to completing their CPL.

Soar/BHI’s biggest mistake is signing up people who never had the aptitude or attitude to study their way their way to a CPL - thinking they can rock up to 2 x 3 hour classes each week, and be presented with a CPL at the end of the 2 years regardless of their effort.

And that's 65 CPL Graduates over how many years? The fact that Soar/BHI took on students without vetting them first for some aptitude is a big mistake they have to own up to and it's going to cost them. It's not exactly rocket science that not everyone is going to make it and sometimes you have to make the hard decision to tell some people they just don't have it. If Soar/BHI were happy to keep taking peoples money knowing they had little chance of graduating within the amount quoted then it is their responsibility to speak up and give the Students the choice. If they haven't and just decided to let them bleed dry then that makes them money hungry grubs who will be dealt with.

Basically none of what you said has put them in any better light and when compared to Industry Average I think you'll find them far below and it'll come out in this case why and to what extent.

Squawk7700

1st Jun 2020, 12:27

Sunfish

1st Jun 2020, 18:03

Pilotbm Over 65 CPL graduates have completed the Box Hill diploma and passed CPL flight tests.

...But you didn’t say that those graduates were actually granted CPL licences or studied and trained through SOAR. Is that what you mean or do you just want us to make that assumption?

pilotbm

1st Jun 2020, 20:19

Pilotbm

...But you didn’t say that those graduates were actually granted CPL licences or studied and trained through SOAR. Is that what you mean or do you just want us to make that assumption?

I completed my training from ab initio to CPL holder in under 2 years, part time at Soar.
I saw plenty of dedicated students do the same.
I also saw plenty of students fly once a month, and not turn up to classes - then then around and say Soar failed them as a school.

Squawk7700

1st Jun 2020, 21:17

I completed my training from ab initio to CPL holder in under 2 years, part time at Soar.
I saw plenty of dedicated students do the same.
I also saw plenty of students fly once a month, and not turn up to classes - then then around and say Soar failed them as a school.

Did it get you a flying job other than there?

pilotbm

1st Jun 2020, 21:23

Did it get you a flying job other than there?

I only finished this year, so clearly not.
I have, however, had no issue continuing on with further training despite my supposed lower grade CPL

Mosman

1st Jun 2020, 23:09

Stikman

1st Jun 2020, 23:57

65 graduates out of how many students?

How many of those 65 graduates already had a CPL and were given Recognition of Prior Learning so they could get the Diploma? I believe quite a few instructors got their Diplomas that way.

How many of those 65 graduates completed the CPL flight test in an aircraft that doesn’t meet the CASAs requirements of a commercial trainer?

How many of those 65 graduates got a job anywhere but Soar?
By 2018, when The Growth Fund partnered with Neel, Soar had "grown to have over 400 students"..
Soar first became an RTO in 2015, when they partnered with Box Hill TAFE.
So....5 years, and only 65 graduates out of over 400 students? Makes ya think, don't it..

Incidentally, Neel didn't start Soar on his own....he had a partner, who got out *very* early in the piece...

Squawk7700

2nd Jun 2020, 04:00

I have, however, had no issue continuing on with further training despite my supposed lower grade CPL

That is to be expected. Training providers will happily take your money.

Trying to find someone to pay you for flying is where a sub-standard CPL will let you down.

outnabout

2nd Jun 2020, 06:04

Ixixly

2nd Jun 2020, 08:14

Ixixly, I have never heard of a flying school telling a student who has financial resources that the student should consider another career.

I have sat in the RHS of a few CPLs who definitely should have been told their chosen career should not involve aviation.

There are some flying schools that the boss will not hire from for these reasons.

It should also be a criminal offence for flying schools to tell young hopefuls that "of course" they will walk into a job on graduation..but just to help them get a competitive edge, they need to spend a bit more money, and get a MECIR, or a NVFR, or do ATPLs or.....

<insert vomit emoji here>

Or even worse, referring them onto someone that tutors on Airline Aptitude Tests.

I've been in Flight Training Schools where Staff have had to have this conversation with Students, it's very rare (I can only count the times on 1 hand but at the same time I haven't been involved in Training for any long period of time) and usually comes down to letting them know if they want to continue then the School will do it's best but it's likely it's going to cost them a lot more because of repeats etc... and the decision is ultimately on the Student.

One of the major reasons the Schools should be encouraged to do this more often applies more to those involved with VET-FEE/HECS as they have to be sending in reports to their relevant Education Org on pass rates etc... and having low rates would open them up to being audited which is never pleasant. I believe New Zealand has become more diligent in their initial intake testing over the last few years as I've seen a number of posts with Students sweating an interview and I think this was as a result of stricter limits on numbers and more oversight on pass rates. I've never personally seen a situation where they've been so dangerous that the School has downright said no but I have personally been involved in putting the foot down on Pilots that have worked for me and telling the Boss they're not stepping foot back in an Aircraft that is our/my responsibility and they should have been drummed out in training. It was definitely a black mark on their training org for future hires if it came down to looking for a reason to differentiate new hires.