Can They Get Any Lower?

[f1yhigh]

Minimum requirements to join airlines, that is. Having a look at the Virgin min requirements for the ATR, and even the jets, 10 years ago no one would have dreamed of joining these Aussie carriers with such low hours.

[Lead Balloon]

Amazing how supply and demand economics apply to cockpit labour, just like every other input to production.

[cessnapete]

Minimum requirements to join airlines, that is. Having a look at the Virgin min requirements for the ATR, and even the jets, 10 years ago no one would have dreamed of joining these Aussie carriers with such low hours.


Sign of the times!!
For over 40 years BEA/BOAC now BA have recruited cadet pilots straight out of Flying College. CPL (Frozen ATPL subjects passed) with 250 ish total hours, direct as P2 onto B737/Trident/B757 and now Airbus A320 variants. (There is no S/O cruise pilot, position practised in the Airline, all joiners are fully trained for two crew ops after Line training)
There was/is now, no big GA/Military pool to recruit from.
A high education standard and rigorous selection/aptitude procedure is followed by 2 years flying training and airline Type rating.
50 or so route training sectors with a Training Capt., and then rostered only with experienced Capts for the first six months when released on two crew Line flying.
Many of the initial trainees have now retired with an unblemished safety record, as Concorde/Wide Body Capts. This recruitment path continues today, also with a mix of ex Airline /Military, with no safety issues. It's the selection and training that is important, not pure flying hours.

[Australopithecus]

“It's the selection and training that is important, not pure flying hours.”

I’d add the management, supervision, culture, absence of stupid HR policies and gender quotas, intolerance of deviation, ongoing professional development and a non-adversarial corporate culture.

The flying hours will come on the own, good and hard. Then one can become a trusted senior pilot able to mentor and nurture the new joiners, who do of course need it.

[wishiwasupthere]

For over 40 years BEA/BOAC now BA have recruited cadet pilots straight out of Flying College. CPL (Frozen ATPL subjects passed) with 250 ish total hours, direct as P2 onto B737/Trident/B757 and now Airbus A320 variants. (There is no S/O cruise pilot, position practised in the Airline, all joiners are fully trained for two crew ops after Line training)
There was/is now, no big GA/Military pool to recruit from.

Cool story. Guess you missed the part that this forum is about Aus/NZ, not the UK?

[lcolman]

Cool story. Guess you missed the part that this forum is about Aus/NZ, not the UK?

Pretty sure that training and flying requirements are pretty common globally due to ICAO rules, being rude to people who have experienced this system who have information that is relevant doesn't help the image of Australian aviators or with the perceived threat of "untrained airline pilots".

[cessnapete]

Cool story. Guess you missed the part that this forum is about Aus/NZ, not the UK?

I can read the Thread heading! What is the big difference preventing same in Oz?
No reason why similar can't be done worldwide? QF domestic, Jetstar,Virgin, all have route structures that provide the multiple short sectors required for Route training.

wishiwasupthere
I was based in Sydney flying Long Haul for some time, and didn't notice the rules in Oz, or Oz aviators, differ that much from my home base!

[VariablePitchP]

Cool story. Guess you missed the part that this forum is about Aus/NZ, not the UK?

Do your planes have more engines or something? Or are Europeans vastly more skilled and intelligent than Aussies? Not sure what you’re getting at

[Australopithecus]

I guess the disconnect between Cessnapete's experience and the local conditions are that Australia still has a large GA and regional pool to recruit from. There are a few cadet schemes to be sure, and that is a growing profit centre for airlines here.

[Rated De]

I guess the disconnect between Cessnapete's experience and the local conditions are that Australia still has a large GA and regional pool to recruit from. There are a few cadet schemes to be sure, and that is a growing profit centre for airlines here.

The big difference in as far as the Australian "cadet" model is that it is reliant upon swarms of "applicants" coughing up from parents money to pay for training or indeed being prepared to borrow it from the taxpayer.
Thus is a key point of difference.
Vertical integration it may be and one airline in particular fills column inches with the number of applicants, but airlines in Australia and not actually addressing the structural shortage. This shortage is largely demographic and partly an own goal: Terms and conditions have created a lack of "applicants".

When it is finally acknowledged that the conditions need improvement to induce additional supply, these cadet factories will, just like European airlines are finding becomes cost centres as airlines rightly pay for product (pilots) that produce operating revenue.

[dr dre]

Minimum requirements to join airlines, that is. Having a look at the Virgin min requirements for the ATR, and even the jets, 10 years ago no one would have dreamed of joining these Aussie carriers with such low hours.

It’s not a dream, might want to find out some history, 10 years ago multiple Australian airlines were recruiting zero hour cadets, putting them through the necessary training and starting them on RPT turboprops and in some cases jets.

[tbfka]

Regarding the FO positions, how likely is it that a male (I know just about every female will progress) with just over those mins would even progress through the initial cull? There are GA operators with significantly higher mins than that..

[Rated De]

Regarding the FO positions, how likely is it that a male (I know just about every female will progress) with just over those mins would even progress through the initial cull? There are GA operators with significantly higher mins than that..

It is more related to the sampling problem a limited population presents: Airlines "look" for certain attributes. Contrary to airline management mantra (especially around contract season) those attributes are not widely dispersed in the general population.
Thus, given dwindling supply they are simply attempting to identify more applicants (with a bigger sample) having those desired attributes.

Former Australian airline (Ansett subsidiary) Kendell Airlines did exactly that, halving their "application requirements"
Many carriers in both Europe and the US in response to a growing and sustained shortage are lowering minimum application requirements in order to build a larger sample with the attributes required from which to draw.

Discrimination of course is a valid issue.

[Wizofoz]

Cool story. Guess you missed the part that this forum is about Aus/NZ, not the UK?

You mean it's about one of the most benign flying environments in the world, not one of the most challenging????

[donpizmeov]

You mean it's about one of the most benign flying environments in the world, not one of the most challenging????
he won't understand wiz.

[TULSAMI]

Would be surprised if they took anyone with less than 2000TT & 500 multi, unless female