Bushfires.

[Sunfish]

Good luck to the fire bomber crews. The next few days are going to be difficult.

[gchriste]

Yeah a massive thank you to all the volunteers on the ground and those supporting from the air. So heartbreaking.

[Turnleft080]

I don't know what aircraft are fighting fires at the moment though if I was the government
I would buy the Beriev BE-200 say get 10 of them. Attached them to the RAAF for training
and logistics. They can scoop 12000L on a touch & go they would put out the front line of a fire storm
quicker than that 737. They can configured to search & rescue, maritime patrol, cargo, transport up to 72 pax.
I think it's an ideal aircraft. Just a suggestion.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Or, as has been raised before...……

A fleet of C-130's 'traded in' by Ronny RAAF, you know, last year';s model, who could, (in my opinion), drop plastic modules filled with water / retardant, via the ramp, directly over the leading edge of said fires.....
a la parachute extraction methods....
We've already paid for the aircraft....Haven't we..?? Just 'donate' them to the State Fire-fighters and have 'Ronny' continue to maintain them...or subby it out if cheaper.

Could have pre-prepared palletised cargo avbl for quick loading / turnaround at nearby regional airport, of which there are plenty in this case….

Yeah, I know....can't litter the country with disposed plastics......NAH! Just let it burn...…

Comments..??

[Okihara]

Did the bushfires make anyone think of getting an ag rating? Might be a bit late for this season, but for subsequent ones?

[havick]

Did the bushfires make anyone think of getting an ag rating? Might be a bit late for this season, but for subsequent ones?

There’s a lot more requirements to getting a gig dropping wet stuff on fires than simply getting an ag rating. Have to need all the client/NAFC pilot requirements on top of what ever operators want.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Interesting. Last two days, either no air assets flying or everybody has their XPDR/ADSB turned off. Nothing showing on FlightAware. Same from me, regardless of leadership issues, all the best for everyone today up in NE Vic, Gippsland and Southern NSW. Before this change hits you guys are going to be in for a rough ride. Hope you all keep safe.

[andrewr]

Interesting. Last two days, either no air assets flying or everybody has their XPDR/ADSB turned off. Nothing showing on FlightAware.

More likely, the amateur receivers that feed FlightAware are turned off or have no internet connection.

[iatethemacaroni]

There’s a lot more requirements to getting a gig dropping wet stuff on fires than simply getting an ag rating. Have to need all the client/NAFC pilot requirements on top of what ever operators want.

Out of interest, would anyone know what the requirements are to fly the Birddog aircraft for AgAir or similar? Say the Turbo Commander or Caravan? Not much on their website.

[Roger Gove]

Has anyone considered that the weather systems associated with the fires may preclude aerial assets?
VFR requirements etc!

[RatsoreA]

Merimbula airport, dark as midnight with 2 hours to go before sunset with VIS at about 20 meters...

[AN1944]

didn't they give some away or Qantas aircraft sent for scrap save dollar spend money here

[Squawk7700]

They have discovered that to the unique and never before seen magnitude of some of these fires that it is pointless to try and fight them with what would literally equate to a bug on a windshield splash of water.

[KRviator]

They have discovered that to the unique and never before seen magnitude of some of these fires that it is pointless to try and fight them with what would literally equate to a bug on a windshield splash of water.The issue is how they got so big in the first place...Because we don't, as a nation have sufficient assets to stop small fires becoming big fires.

For ScoMo to say "Bushfires are a state issue" shows how little concept he has about the significance of worsening fire seasons. NSW can't afford a fleet of CL-415's (we're too busy building new football stadiums), but Australia happily gives away $4 Billion a year in foreign aid (https://dfat.gov.au/about-us/corporate/portfolio-budget-statements/Documents/2019-20-aus-aid-budget-at-a-glance.pdf). At today's exchange rate, that's 80 CL-415's. Or 70 if you budget for maintenance & crewing too. Putting 10 at a time in a racetrack dumping onto any fledgling bushfire this season could well have stopped what we've witnessed so far - and we are still a couple months away from the end of the bushfire season, with 1,500+ homes already gone, triple that in outbuildings destroyed and over a dozen dead with twice that still missing. What's the economic cost of all that devastation?

It's all well and good to say "but the 'Murican's are the experts at that kind of thing" and I would agree that that is a true statement. But there is nothing stopping us following in their footsteps instead of continually contracting out the job. We just don't have a government with the will to take ownership of the issue - because footy grounds and better internet in PNG are more important. :mad:

[currawong]

"For ScoMo to say "Bushfires are a state issue" shows how little concept he has"

That is not his opinion, it is in fact the law.

That could be changed, with legislation. Good luck getting that through by this time tomorrow....

As it stands the Feds throw money at the States to contribute to the procurement of aerial assets.

Have a look on JB. Some fire issues discussed outside the aviation arena that have a big effect.

[KRviator]

"For ScoMo to say "Bushfires are a state issue" shows how little concept he has"

That is not his opinion, it is in fact the law.

That could be changed, with legislation. Good luck getting that through by this time tomorrow....It isn't about getting it through tonight, or tomorrow, it is about getting it through at all! We lost 173 Citizens a decade ago, and we are straight back onto the hamster wheel. Defence is a national issue. As is currency and welfare, yet health and fire suppression? Nope, upto the states to go it alone, and good luck with that...

As it stands the Feds throw money at the States to contribute to the procurement of aerial assets.Not enough to buy their own. NSW has only just now bought one 737. One. Yes they lease other assets as the need arises, but that is because it is a State issue, not a national one. The most numerous aircraft in the aerial firefighting fleet is the venerable Air Tractor.

We have two Hercs, 1 737 and 3 RJ85's, according to the NAFC (http://www.nafc.org.au/?page_id=168), though that was only current as at last years fire season. ISTR we have a DC-10 this year as well. More are on the way (now, after a business case lodged 18 months ago by recent reports) and may be here for this season, yes, but 6(7?) "heavy" fixed-wing bombers are not sufficient for a country this size. We need our own fleet, crewed by our own people ready to go, we cannot continually rely on overseas assets, particularly when we do have the resources to take care of things ourselves, if not the political will.

[currawong]

" The most numerous aircraft in the aerial firefighting fleet is the venerable Air Tractor."

8 are sitting idle not 5 minutes from where I sit now. There has been no interest in using them.

However, all the air support in the world means nothing without work on fuel loadings.

Recommendations were made 10 years ago for fuel reduction burns of at least 5% preferably 10% to be made.

Actually more like 1% has been achieved. This warning from a year ago -

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-07/black-saturday-fire-fuel-threat-planned-burns-needed/10787050?fbclid=IwAR2LvNroHzNeT-IdHa-AjKubeXV1gOSbPZvGcq0PPeP1AZCRGnYvcbGEJ24

[Squawk7700]

I’ve been fully expecting to hear the words “pilot shortage” however it hasn’t popped up yet.

[Roger Gove]

KR, from where do we operate this large fleet of Very Large Air Tankers (VLAT) and CL415's?
An RJ85 or a C130 (Multi Engine Air Tanker - MEAT) may be able to operate from a few Regional Airports, however a B737 or DC10 needs suitable runways and support facilities.
Within Victoria a B737 would be limited to YMML, YMAV, YMES and YMIA. It can't use YMEN because it is above 45 tonne.
Even at B737 speeds Victoria would need several in order to be able to lay an effective retardant line on the flank of a fire from the limited number of suitable aerodromes.
The CL415 needs around 1300m of obstacle free smooth water in order to scoop fill. Victoria doesn't have many such suitable waterways. Most that would normally be suitable, large reservoirs, are at 50% or less capacity.
Back in the 1970's trials were conducted using military C130 fitted with a retardant dispersal, pallet. The trials weren't all that successful.
Perhaps the better option, for Victoria in particular, is to increase the fleet of AT802A and AT802F Single Engine Air Tankers (SEAT). This should be coupled with the acquisition of more large helicopters: S61, S64, or utilize the fleet of B412 that exist in country.
SEATs and helicopters can operate from just about anywhere and should be used for initial knockdown of small fires, ie don't let them become large fires.
It has been said many times that aerial firefighting is just another asset (tool), along with manpower, tankers and earth moving equipment used to fight fires.
It has also been said that fire bombers make great television, but they do not put out fires.
RG

[currawong]

And, some of the public needs to take a long hard look at themselves -

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/744x1024/abcgippsland_30c0c0e94b88354bbe7b331af30b9cd5421390a2.jpg

[mickjoebill]

If we had our own fleet, would the availability of DC10 off season give greater confidence to conduct more hazard reduction burns?

mjb

[601]

If we had our own fleet, would the availability of DC10 off season give greater confidence to conduct more hazard reduction burns?
and keep current

[nonsense]

More likely, the amateur receivers that feed FlightAware are turned off or have no internet connection.
And yet each evening VH-LAB can be seen surveying the very same areas?

https://www.flightradar24.com/FSCN125/2368baec

[Okihara]

There’s a lot more requirements to getting a gig dropping wet stuff on fires than simply getting an ag rating. Have to need all the client/NAFC pilot requirements on top of what ever operators want.


That shouldn't be the prevailing attitude in that regard right now, methinks.

[Rwy in Sight]

Not a pilot but I live in a country with a number of CL-215/415. I need to point out currently there is no production line for CL-415. There are thoughts about a 515 and the Japanese have an aircraft suitable but I am not sure about production capacity. For Australian size the Be-200 is much better due to higher speed and water scooping capability.

[Sunfish]

unfortunately we have limited area of water from which to scoop and what we do have is occupied by fishermen and water skiers.

[Squawk7700]

That shouldn't be the prevailing attitude in that regard right now, methinks.

The last thing they need right now, is a bunch of low time PPL’s with a recently acquired AG rating, trying to drop retardant on bushfires!

[Sunfish]

Squawk 7700 is absolutely correct. All it would do is cause confusion, inefficiency or casualties. There is a great deal of training needed just in operational procedures to start with.

[currawong]

Last time I looked, one could still take on a fire until the relevant authority took control of the incident.

Which seems appropriate.

[Compass Call]

Sunfish
Surely a 'state of emergency' could ban recreational use of waterways to allow firefighters to do their job?
Or are the Aussies so stupid they would put recreation before their country??

[LiamNCL]

I am suprised to read that company who own the 747 Supertanker in Colorado have been in contact with Australian officials and say they are ready to go if they are needed ? I would have been down this avenue weeks ago.

[kev_laline]

There is a simple reason the fires are so big.
One word - FUEL.

[PoppaJo]

The issue is how they got so big in the first place...Because we don't, as a nation have sufficient assets to stop small fires becoming big fires.
Because Parks Victoria is one of the most useless incompetent disorganised bunch of useless government departments ever created. How many of these fires of directly related to the incompetence of this mob? Many. Gippsland has been burning for months because they screwed up in November.

I live in regional Vic and I’ve barred this lot from entering my property. They wanted to backburn near my property in November but as I’m now aware of at least 20 incidents last year alone where they poorly executed these projects resulting in large uncontrolled mess. 3 years ago they did this near my land, and it got out of control and came within 500m from my fenceline. I work in a job where SOP is king. We follow the checklist. We are trained regularly and checked. These guys do not. There is no order and no accountability or investigation when things go south.

There is many flaws that currently exist in Fire Service and Parks Management. I guess rolling political musical chairs hasn’t helped as no minister is held responsible let alone has any sort of knowledge for the industry.

The PM Media firestorm is great for ratings and all sells newspapers but did a little deeper to see where the real issues stem.

[porch monkey]

Amen to that.

[RickNRoll]

There is a simple reason the fires are so big.
One word - FUEL.
You are simply wrong. This is a more complex take on the problem.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-20/hazard-reduction-burns-bushfires/11817336

People hate to hear it but climate change is a significant factor. Fires are going through areas that were cleared not long ago and even re-crossing burnt areas multiple times. The heat, humidity and drought are burning with a ferocity that is igniting the whole forest from to to bottom in one hit. Hazard reduction achieves nothing in those circumstances.

Hazard
​​​reduction burns are being done but the window of opportunity to do these is continually shrinking. Look at the time of year these fires started.

[Squawk7700]

2pm at Merimbula complete with grounded Blackhawk.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/01b9bb3f_43a2_4fbc_af9c_958c0fb782b1_4b47eef7525866ccf3686ed 0af302ec9f727317a.png

[currawong]

You are simply wrong. This is a more complex take on the problem.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-20/hazard-reduction-burns-bushfires/11817336

People hate to hear it but climate change is a significant factor. Fires are going through areas that were cleared not long ago and even re-crossing burnt areas multiple times. The heat, humidity and drought are burning with a ferocity that is igniting the whole forest from to to bottom in one hit. Hazard reduction achieves nothing in those circumstances.

Hazard
​​​reduction burns are being done but the window of opportunity to do these is continually shrinking. Look at the time of year these fires started.

Would you rather be in / adjacent to an area that had hazard reduction or an area that did not at present?

Put simply, do you want a big fire or a small one?

[RickNRoll]

Would you rather be in / adjacent to an area that had hazard reduction or an area that did not at present?

Put simply, do you want a big fire or a small one?
That wasn't a simple question, it was a rhetorical question with a simple premise for a complex problem. Read the link I provided.

[currawong]

That wasn't a simple question, it was a rhetorical question with a simple premise for a complex problem. Read the link I provided.

Yes, read it a while back.

Your rhetorical question was addressed with a Royal Commission after Black Saturday.

Here is a warning on the subject from a year ago.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-07/black-saturday-fire-fuel-threat-planned-burns-needed/10787050?fbclid=IwAR2LvNroHzNeT-IdHa-AjKubeXV1gOSbPZvGcq0PPeP1AZCRGnYvcbGEJ24

[Jerry Springer]

Did the bushfires make anyone think of getting an ag rating? Might be a bit late for this season, but for subsequent ones?




An Ag Rating on it’s own is currently useless for getting a job fighting fires if you’re an Aussie on fixed-wing. 1,000 hours of Ag flying is the requirement, which will take a good number or years to log. There isn’t so much Ag work around these days.
I suspect in years to come most of the fire-fighting pilots in Australia will be from overseas, as the 1,000 hours of Ag isn’t required of them - or maybe CASA will make a Fire-Fighting Rating that bypasses Ag ?

[RickNRoll]

Yes, read it a while back.

Your rhetorical question was addressed with a Royal Commission after Black Saturday.

Here is a warning on the subject from a year ago.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-07/black-saturday-fire-fuel-threat-planned-burns-needed/10787050?fbclid=IwAR2LvNroHzNeT-IdHa-AjKubeXV1gOSbPZvGcq0PPeP1AZCRGnYvcbGEJ24
So we are it's not "the Greenies" then?

How do they do the burns when climate change means the available window for doing burns is shrinking? The droughts are getting worse and the temperature extremes are worse. They weren't far of 50C at Penrith on Saturday. The Black Saturday fires saw people who had done all the possible clearing done burnt alive in their homes because the grass fires were enough to kill.

The scientists were telling us this would be an extreme summer for fires, the emergency services were telling us the same message and Scotty just sat there with his fingers in his ears saying "La, la, la, I can't hear you".

[RickNRoll]

It's not the greens.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/this-is-not-normal-what-s-different-about-the-nsw-mega-fires-20191110-p5395e.html

[Sunfish]

Sunfish
Surely a 'state of emergency' could ban recreational use of waterways to allow firefighters to do their job?
Or are the Aussies so stupid they would put recreation before their country??
recreational boaters are the least of the problems. I don’t have time to explain. the daily ops orders are many pages long and joblow has sfa of understanding. i f
dont have time to explain.

[Turnleft080]

Oh so it's not the Greens. Where have Adam Bandt, Richard Di Natale been for the last 2 months.
Not one little snippet on tv, radio, newspapers yet Scomo gets a flogging. Of course, they are
in hibernation. They will come out of their rabbit holes when parliament sits next.
When the Democrats dismantled that was the day politics died in this country.
May god save the queen but nothing will save Greens in the next election.

[RickNRoll]

Oh so it's not the Greens. Where have Adam Bandt, Richard Di Natale been for the last 2 months.
Not one little snippet on tv, radio, newspapers yet Scomo gets a flogging. Of course, they are
in hibernation. They will come out of their rabbit holes when parliament sits next.
When the Democrats dismantled that was the day politics died in this country.
May god save the queen but nothing will save Greens in the next election.
The greens are being routinely blamed for all this on social media and in the Murdoch press. Where have they been? They have not had any political power and,i you read the links, they can't stop burns.

[RickNRoll]

It's not the greens.

Factcheck: Is there really a green conspiracy to stop bushfire hazard reduction?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/12/is-there-really-a-green-conspiracy-to-stop-bushfire-hazard-reduction?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[RickNRoll]

[/In November 2019, she said (https://npansw.org/2019/11/15/focusing-purely-on-hazard-reduction-burning-is-a-recipe-for-future-disaster/): “The increasing intensity and frequency of fire is one of the greatest threats to biodiversity and natural landscapes. It may be politically expedient to pretend that conservationists exercise some mythical power over fire legislation and bushfire management committees, but it is not so.

“Such wild and simplistic claims avoid the very real and complex challenges of protecting our communities and the healthy environments that support our quality of life.”

Bowman said that separate to the “lazy political rhetoric” of blaming environmentalists, there should be an examination of the benefits and limitations of hazard reduction.



So there you have it, again. Simplistic claims that give people comfort.

[Okihara]

The last thing they need right now, is a bunch of low time PPL’s with a recently acquired AG rating, trying to drop retardant on bushfires!
You're right, albeit for the wrong reasons.

Low time PPLs are anyway not going to get an AG rating.

Why not? Because of CASR 61.1115 (1) (b) which requires candidates to hold a CPL or higher for the AG rating. Note that the rating itself is not enough, there's a requirement to hold the firebombing endorsement too.

Now that this has been clarified, I reiterate my suggestion that many who would otherwise be instructing or performing all sorts of less urgent flying activities when bushfires ravage Australia could get an AG rating with firebombing endorsement and act as reserve pilots.

Squawk 7700 is absolutely correct. All it would do is cause confusion, inefficiency or casualties. There is a great deal of training needed just in operational procedures to start with.


Well, Squawk 7700 clearly wasn't. I'm not sure about the confusion, inefficiency and casualties part to be honest. Yes, there's a great deal of training involved but wouldn't that money be better invested so than spent in damage reparations? It'll take political impetus to implement. I'd rather read in the newspapers that a pilot died doing the right thing fighting fires than people who perished in the inferno trying to flee.

An Ag Rating on it’s own is currently useless for getting a job fighting fires if you’re an Aussie on fixed-wing. 1,000 hours of Ag flying is the requirement, which will take a good number or years to log. There isn’t so much Ag work around these days
I suspect in years to come most of the fire-fighting pilots in Australia will be from overseas, as the 1,000 hours of Ag isn’t required of them - or maybe CASA will make a Fire-Fighting Rating that bypasses Ag ?

Many instructors have logged close to 1000 hours. As you say CASA would have the final say but I expect that things will change politically after this season's bushfires.

[Jerry Springer]

Many instructors have logged close to 1000 hours. As you say CASA would have the final say but I expect that things will change politically after this season's bushfires.

But what has being an Instructor got to do with Ag flying? 1000 Hours Ag time is totally different to 1000 hours instructing.
The Aussie requirement is for 1000 hours of Ag flying. You could have 20,000 hours of instructing and it would still be meaningless in terms of preparing you for firefighting.

I do think the 1000 hours Ag could be modified to include some other ‘relevant experience’ - military operations, mustering, aerobatics, mountain flying (not that Australia has any mountains of note) basically stuff involving stick-and-rudder skills low to the ground - but Instructing certainly isn’t relevant to firebombing. At the risk of offending anyone, I’d say most Instructors have very basic stick-and-rudder skills to start. They’re generally low-time pilots who don’t fly on the stick much themselves, they are in-fact mostly hands-off as they direct someone else flying.

In the USA, Canada and Europe, Firebombing pilots don’t have the 1000 hour Ag restriction, although in practice many have considerable Ag time. But then in the USA and Canada, there are more multi-crew firebombing aircraft where pilots can work as an FO on operations with a more experienced Captain, and hence build up relevant experience without doing Ag.

[Jerry Springer]

Now that this has been clarified, I reiterate my suggestion that many who would otherwise be instructing or performing all sorts of less urgent flying activities when bushfires ravage Australia could get an AG rating with firebombing endorsement and act as reserve pilots.



Totally unrealistic. Sitting in the Right seat while a student does circuits is absolutely no preparation at all for flying near max weight, Low Level in hilly terrain, with strong winds and gusts and poor visibility while trying to accuracy dump tons of water out of an aeroplane. Every year experienced Ag pilots are killed doing low level work - a ‘reserve’ pilot would be dead before noon. Most instructors don’t even have tailwheel time, let alone turbine time, or float time for the Fireboss, or even low-level experience - what aircraft do you think a C-172 instructor is going to fly on firebombing? And which operator do you think will hand over a multi-million dollar machine to such a pilot, even if it were possible (and thankfully it’s not, and never will be).

Your suggestion is like saying, why doesn’t Qantas slot-in some reserve pilots with 1000 hours of Instructing into their 747s when the schedule gets a bit busy.

[Squawk7700]

You're right, albeit for the wrong reasons.

Low time PPLs are anyway not going to get an AG rating.

Why not? Because of CASR 61.1115 (1) (b) which requires candidates to hold a CPL or higher for the AG rating. Note that the rating itself is not enough, there's a requirement to hold the firebombing endorsement too.

Now that this has been clarified, I reiterate my suggestion that many who would otherwise be instructing or performing all sorts of less urgent flying activities when bushfires ravage Australia could get an AG rating with firebombing endorsement and act as reserve pilots.



Well, Squawk 7700 clearly wasn't. I'm not sure about the confusion, inefficiency and casualties part to be honest. Yes, there's a great deal of training involved but wouldn't that money be better invested so than spent in damage reparations? It'll take political impetus to implement. I'd rather read in the newspapers that a pilot died doing the right thing fighting fires than people who perished in the inferno trying to flee.



Many instructors have logged close to 1000 hours. As you say CASA would have the final say but I expect that things will change politically after this season's bushfires.

Please don’t keep telling me I’m wrong when I know what I’m talking about. A PPL (such as yourself) can get an AG rating, which comes after a CPL, but neither is a quick process which makes the suggestion rather laughable. As for reservists, forget it. Most instructors I know are lusting to fly a turbine more than ever and many will never get near one in the next 10 years.

[kangaroota]

Are there any simple but effective set ups that can mitigate the risk of bush fires. I'm thinking of say a couple of 30,000 litre water tanks just dedicated to a sprinkler system around the perimeter of a property. Release the whole lot in a matter of minutes in front of advancing flames.

[Squawk7700]

Are there any simple but effective set ups that can mitigate the risk of bush fires. I'm thinking of say a couple of 30,000 litre water tanks just dedicated to a sprinkler system around the perimeter of a property. Release the whole lot in a matter of minutes in front of advancing flames.

There has been a lot of talk about this, however in the case of many of these fires, the fire front exceeds 800 degrees and literally obliterates any water used long before the most intense of the flames even are close to the asset. You’d have to think that a retardant being used all over could help, but it comes down to cost of fitting such equipment to enable you to deploy it before the fire approaches.

The couple and the 13 animals that we’re in a 20 ft shipping container with fireproof cladding fitted were on the money. They said the roaring was akin to a nuclear explosion (in their opinion) that lasted for 30 minutes. In that case their house was still standing afterwards. Makes you think that they didn’t get hit by one of these 800+ degree fronts.

The traditional approach of blocking gutter downpipes and filling gutters with water and overflowing appears to work well as long as water pressure is still available last minute, however it doesn’t appear to be successful for these extremely hot fronts. Many home owners aren’t even prepared to the extent that they are able to fill their gutters which is alarming.

[Squawk7700]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/557b7527_cda6_4df6_93c9_837236710af5_1d7687b16540d82640a4a06 9363275c263010120.jpeg

This image was over 300kms from the nearest fire yesterday. Makes you realise how little use aircraft would be.

[currawong]

Rick, "The Greens" have a clear stated policy regarding hazard reduction, as you have pointed out.

Greenies on the other hand, as already shown in the report in post # 20, are problematic.

As you point out, it is hard enough already to get hazard reduction done.

No doubt, when this is all over, you and I will have to spring for another very expensive Royal Commission that, after extensive investigation will tell us what we already knew.

[Okihara]

Bla bla bla, regulations, superhero flying skills. The ship is sinking and you're asking me if the water is too cold to swim :ugh:

[Rated De]

There are two observations to make:

1. Australia is a back water of self-interest. Everything is hollowed out. Infrastructure, water and power all gone.
The system so devoid of capacity that a first world country has no capacity to deliver assets (fuel, food and water) down a highway to support a volunteer force fighting something they have de-funded from tackling.
Listening to that idiot Morrison keep digging a hole, Gladys hoping that no one mentions the cuts to the RFS and the " Commish" all resplendent in his medals on $370K a year defending the non-payment to those volunteers is pathetic.
Watching Smoko forcefully try to shake hands has gone global for a reason, he is not fit to lead a choir.

2. Australian strategic policy used to suggest that at best, the ADF could defend the Bass Strait oil fields..
That policy needs a re-think.From connections on the ground with two agencies, their message is overwhelming: a Fustercluk. ZERO communication, zero plan.
Local police and RFS and aid units, together, have been doing their own thing, the best they can.

[Okihara]

Here's a good read on the topic: https://www.ffm.vic.gov.au/__data/as...ine-Tanker.pdf (https://www.ffm.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/21109/Report-81-Fire-Boss-Amphibian-Single-Engine-Tanker.pdf)

[Jerry Springer]

Bla bla bla, regulations, superhero flying skills. The ship is sinking and you're asking me if the water is too cold to swim :ugh:


No, it’s nothing to do with having superhero flying skills - its about having the necessary and relevant skills.
A 747 Captain isn’t a superhero and a firefighting pilot isn’t any more of a superhero - each simply has the skills necessary and relevant to their job.
A chap who has 1000 hours of sitting in the right seat while a student does circuits isn’t qualified for either a 747 job or a firebombing job - that’s obvious reality - I really don’t know how anyone would think otherwise.


And that’s not saying the others pilots have superhero skills - it’s just pointing out who is, and who isn’t qualified for a particular job.

[robsrich]

Australian bushfires – recommended phone app – helps when lost

Emergency+ app

Several days ago, a spokesperson from the New South Wales RFS headquarters said their 000-emergency phone service normally handles 50 emergencies per day; now the number is more than 5,000.

Although they have increased their capacity to handle this number; they have noted a large number of people are calling in for help when they do not know where they are, which is understandable, if they been driving in heavy smoke conditions or maybe elsewhere when they suddenly need help.

The operators are spending an enormous amount of time trying to work out where the caller is located; which is especially hard for those who are tourists in unfamiliar territory.

The RFS strongly recommends the Emergency+ app, a free app developed by Australia's emergency services and their Government and industry partners which can be installed on your phone. The app uses GPS functionality built into smart phones to help a Triple Zero (000) caller to provide critical location details required to mobilise emergency services.

The moment you turn ‘tap on the app’; your latitude and longitudinal is shown so you and the operator can see where you are.

Those of you who have an aeromedical or SAR background will appreciate the advantage you are given when you can get specific geographical coordinates for your GPS systems.

And the price is right!
Rob

[Sunfish]

In an effort to help people understand what is happening and how to help, let me explain something. Just like an army fighting a war, the key is logistics. The logistics determine what is possible and when it can be delivered, many commentators and the public don't understand this and get frustrated when things don't happen fast enough or their well meaning offers of help are rejected.

On my PC I have a copy of one shift plan for one major fire. It's 36 pages long. It details how the CFA is going to try to fight ONE fire for ONE twelve hour shift. It HAS to cover things like missions and priorities for individual five or six tanker strike teams, the composition of each team, where they will go, where they can get fuel and water, where they can get medical help, who is going to relieve them, who and where will mechanical support (mechanics, tyres,etc.) be provided, then there is a radio communications plan, the plan for refugees, and all THAT is for each of perhaps five strike teams. Then on top of that there is the air wing plan, the bulldozer, grader and heavy equipment plan, the refugee plan the communications plan both operational and to the public, then there is the fire fighter personnel plan - where are fire fighters going to be rested, fed and returned? Then there is the fuel plan ,the water plan, etc. Then of course we have the Bureau of Meteorology and their highly specialised forecasts and the fire behaviour specialists and mappers who try and predict what will happen. Then there are the police, electricity, roads and communications plans.

Now add interstate coordination, defence department coordination ( they have mostly separate logistics) and such things as legal requirements

Do you now understand how complex it is to deal with this emergency? Do you also understand that the recovery plan will need to be just as complicated and detailed?

Our team went in on New Years Eve. We were called at 0717 and assembled and rolling North at 0900. Thats how fast this fire developed. The base at Tallangatta football oval was just setting up when we arrived - this is remote country. At the fire ground there was no fuel, no power, no communications and very little water - at about 0200 on New Years Day approximately forty tankers rolled in, with their own fuel tankers and auxiliary staff and we stood down. We got on a bus home later New years morning. That's pretty fast work by anyone's standards. Our trucks are still up North, but we were provided a replacement one back at base from Western Victoria. Just the logistics of managing the vehicles is mind boggling.

This is a long and complex battle which isn't over. Do you now understand why except at the very local level, your help isn't perhaps useful because you aren't integrated into the logistics plan? We don't have fuel, food or radios for you. We don't know your training and experience levels. We don't know how safe you are or what you can and cannot do.

Of course there will be mistakes and SNAFUs they can't be avoided, but give the authorities some slack.

Lessons we learned - buy a three phase diesel generator for our station - the ones near Corryong were dark. Don't leave behind a brand new $2000+ set of Milwaukee power tools in the truck when you hand it over, we will be lucky if another poorer brigade doesn't 'borrow" them.

[Capn Bloggs]

The RFS strongly recommends the Emergency+ app, a free app developed by Australia's emergency services and their Government and industry partners which can be installed on your phone. The app uses GPS functionality built into smart phones to help a Triple Zero (000) caller to provide critical location details required to mobilise emergency services.
Duly installed. Looks great! :D

[Centaurus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_firefighting_and_forestry_in_southern_Australia

Aerial pre-emptive fire fighting many years ago. Prevention is better than the cure.

[The name is Porter]

They weren't far of 50C at Penrith on Saturday.

mmm, I believe the previous 'best' was 1939. If Greta's Great Grand Parents had have pulled their fingers out, this wouldn't have been a problem.

[hawk_eye]

That’s a really great insight Sunfish - thanks for sharing that with us.

​​​​​​​And thanks for your efforts in helping fight these fires (and to everyone else here volunteering their time).

[kaz3g]

There is a simple reason the fires are so big.
One word - FUEL.

No, three words: the fire triangle contains fuel, heat and oxygen...remove anyone of these and there is no fire.

We add water to fires to reduce the temperature and high water content in fuels inhibits combustion by keeping the fuel temperature down. FMC is desperately low this season due to ongoing drought, high temperatures (record-breaking everywhere) and strong winds so fuels are extremely volatile.

Fuel loads are high; no doubt about it. But it’s been bloody hard to do fuel reduction burns responsibly in conditions pertaining last few years. They need to be done late Autumn if possible because the winter rains reduces stress losses which just mean more fuel as trees and shrubs die as occurs often with Spring burns. We can’t do much about the oxygen (just look at all the uniformed commentary), but the world just might be able to do something about the temperatures if everyone turns their minds to it.

[NumptyAussie]

mmm, I believe the previous 'best' was 1939. If Greta's Great Grand Parents had have pulled their fingers out, this wouldn't have been a problem.
i believe that the growing population is a major contributor to the rapidly changing climate. So perhaps if great grandaddy pulled something else out......

[Bournemouthair]

Orange skies

[rjtjrt]

Nice uplifting story and photo. Volunteers are fantastic.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-07/photo-of-victorian-firefighter-and-newborn-son-goes-viral/11845060


Firefighter and newborn son photographed at Kiewa headquarters goes viral
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11846720-3x2-940x627.jpgKurt Hickling has seen plenty of devastation and loss caused by Victoria's bushfires, but he believes his most enduring memory from the crisis is one of hope and positivity.

Mr Hickling, a professional photographer and experienced CFA volunteer, has completed countless marriage and newborn baby photo shoots over the years.

However, he said the job he completed on Sunday at Kiewa in north-west Victoria was the most special of his career.

His subjects were firefighter Beau Haines and his son Spencer, born on Christmas Eve.

Mr Hickling knew he was onto a winner the moment he snapped fast-asleep Spencer cradled in his proud father's arms at the Kiewa fire station.

The image has since gone viral on Facebook, attracting hundreds of shares, comments and well wishes.

"We just thought, let's send out a message from a volunteer's perspective about how important it is for them to get back to their families," Mr Hickling said of his picture.

"I wanted to create something positive for everyone to look at.

"It's given some people a lot of hope."
Firefighters 'exhausted' but 'not giving up'Mr Haines told ABC Radio Melbourne he was relieved to be able to attend his son's birth, after being deployed to battle blazes at Bateman's Bay and Corryong in the days prior.



"It near on brought tears to my eyes."

For Mr Hickling, who is based in Chiltern, the fire crisis has meant juggling his photography work with CFA volunteer duties that have taken him around the state.

Wedding shoots have gone ahead despite the fires but precautions are taken, such as checking exit points in case fires get too close.

He said volunteers at his CFA brigade are worn-out, some completing 20-hour shifts.

"There's a lot of tired firefighters. Resources are being stretched to the limit," Mr Hickling said.

"Nobody feels defeated. They're exhausted but they're not going to give up the fight."

[RickNRoll]

Great post, Sunfish. Very informative.

[Wizofoz]

There is a simple reason the fires are so big.
One word - FUEL.

And, as with most one-word solutions- you missed important factors including DROUGHT and HEAT.

This has been part of the "Nothing to see here" campaign by the climate denialists.

[ThrushG10]

There would still a fair number of experienced ag pilots in Australia capable of doing fire bombing but lack the special tick of approval from NAFC. They require 100 hours on type, ie AT802 and 50 hours minimum of actual firebombing experience logged. Now here is the catch 22. You can't go firebombing to get that experience without NAFC approval, but you won't get approved unless you have the experience. Only in Oz.

[SnowFella]

Going by the RFS facebook feed there's one less helicopter working the south coast fires after this afternoon, thankfully pilot reported as safe.
Aircraft incident

At around 1600hrs this afternoon, a contract helicopter working for the NSW Rural Fire Service (NSW RFS) ditched into a dam on the Far South Coast of NSW.

The waterbombing aircraft, tasked to the Clyde Mountain fire, ditched into the Ben Boyd Reservoir in the Ben Boyd National Park at Edrom, in the Bega Valley Shire.

The aircraft remains submerged however the pilot was able to free himself from the aircraft and is safely onshore.

Ambulance are responding to the scene

[0ttoL]

Going by the RFS facebook feed there's one less helicopter working the south coast fires after this afternoon, thankfully pilot reported as safe.

News article related to this incident:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/australian-bushfires-helicopter-crashes-into-dam-fighting-fires-near-bega-nsw/8cc8e1a3-7b58-42df-8ad7-7f3b536f5f25

[BigPapi]

YKSC briefly NOTAM'd closed last night as Kingscote became inside the warning area.

[currawong]

22/11/19 ABC -

"A staggering number of the unprecedented bushfires currently ravaging Australia seem to have been lit on purpose, with at least 74 people reportedly charged with arson"

11/01/20 ABC -

"The truth about Australia's fires - arsonists aren't responsible for many"

:rolleyes:

[layman]

currawong

thanks for that.

I don't think the headlines really reflect the content of either report (and that's a whole other area for discussion …)

The bottom line seems to be that 'non-natural' fires are of concern (there are too many of them) but, while some have catastrophic outcomes, they generally cause relatively little damage.

According to research reported on in the first (radio) report, the figure of 37% was mentioned as "accidentally or deliberately" lit but the damage is often limited. For example, from the 2nd report, "In Victoria, where about 1.2 million hectares has burned, only 385 hectares — or 0.03 per cent — have been attributed to suspicious circumstances."

Of the 'deliberate' fires, you can also need to look at the age / mental state of the fire starters. One of the reports suggested that of the deliberate fires, 60% are started by 'children' (people under the age of 21 !!??). Deliberately lit fires spike during school holidays with many of the children found to come from families with "issues" (alcoholism, drugs, abusive parents, etc)

And whether fires are natural or not, this is only addressing a small part what we need to be looking at:
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc

[Super Cecil]

And whether fires are natural or not, this is only addressing a small part what we need to be looking at:
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc
All been discussed and analysed many times before after every major fire in the last 50 years, another Royal Commission is not going to change anything except keep a few more lawyers incomes increased.