do all R44s have throttle governors ?

[Reely340]

If yes, I know at least another one who failed to govern, during final approach. https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3028185/
Was a good landing though, as all walked away.

Apparently this can happen ;) https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/occurrence-briefs/2018/aviation/ab-2018-082/

[rudestuff]

If yes, I know at least another one who failed to govern, during final approach. https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3028185/
Was a good landing though, as all walked away.

What does this have to do with the governor?

[Paul Cantrell]

All R44s are governed. However, in my experience, it is one of the less reliable pieces of gear on the helicopter ( true on the R22 as well )

First of all, it's very easy for a pilot to inadvertently override the governor by simply holding the throttle too tightly. We see this all the time in a training environment. Being trained to keep a loose gentle grip on the throttle easily solves that problem. Some people fly with their hand back behind the throttle ( on the metal collective tube ) but I don't recommend that.

Additionally, any problem with the points in the right magneto can cause it to drop offline ( just stop working ) or to cause engine surging. I know several people personally that this has happened to. Depending on what's going on in this case, you may see incorrect engine tachometer indications because the tach works off the same points.

Also, the system can be affected by strong RF signals ( flying close to a radio transmitter ). I've seen this myself a couple times flying near FM radio transmitters.

The R44 has a mechanical correlator which moves the throttle when the collective is moved. The correlator works instantly, and then the governor fine tunes the throttle. At sea level, the correlator on an R44 will maintain RPM within a couple percent, even across large collective movements. At higher altitudes, or with a sick engine, the correlator will move the throttle too much, or not enough, and the governor will have to make an adjustment. Because the correlator moves the throttle simultaneously with the collective movement, while the governor is designed to make relatively slow corrections, rapid movements of the collective will cause momentary RPM excursions. Therefore, as in any helicopter, you should always make slow deliberate collective pitch changes.

Given that the governor on/off switch is right on the end of the collective, easily accessed by your thumb without having to remove your hand from the collective, there's really no reason why a governor failure of any kind should be more than a minor annoyance. People should have a good understanding of the difference between the correlator and the governor, the failure modes of the governor, and how to turn it off and finish the flight making manual corrections to RPM using the throttle. It really is not that difficult a system to master, however some schools don't include sufficient governor training resulting in some pilots who don't fully understand the system.

[Ovc000]

Well written Paul !
Over the years I had 3 governor failures (3 different companies) and it's not a big deal. Turn off the gov switch and continue flight, operating the throttle manualy. This is part of the PPL(H) training and should be well understood by any student. Of all the emergencies you train for, gov failure is probably the one that you might have one day.

Regarding the topic: why do you call this a gov failure?? in the german text I can read "er einen Leistungsverlust gehabt" which is a power loss. Lycoming engines are very reliable so an engine failure is highly unlikely, fuel starvation or low fuel with a high angle of bank turn? On final approach you can have vortex ring... The R44 turned due to a plane departing, in the turn you loose lift, rate of descend increases, if the turn was 180 degrees then they had wind from behind etc. Or maybe they ran out of power (slow speed, out of ground effect) and overpitched, unlikely with 3 pob in a R44 unless very heavy pax and lots of fuel.
So there are many possibilities for this crash but I don't think the governor is to blame. If it was the governor, the pilot should have known what to do about it. If suspected malfunctioning, turn it off. So don't do like in the atsb report that was also linked on the top, the pilot left the switch on and operated the throttle manualy. This can result in the pilot giving an input on the throttle and if not held properly, the governor might also give an input, risking an overspeed or low Rrpm (losing lift). Read the POH including the safety notices and follow it. Learn from the mistakes that others made.....

[DIBO]

For what it's worth, last Sunday also an R44 accident (luckily no injuries) in Belgium - Flanders, following engine trouble/failure(??) a mile before its final destination and a forced landing into a too muddy field, ending up on one side.
A link with some pictures of the scene can be found on https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=65050&start=80#p390810 , no further (reliable) factual/technical info available.

[Robbiee]

...Some people fly with their hand back behind the throttle ( on the metal collective tube ) but I don't recommend that....


That's how I've been doing it for years. I still keep a couple fingers loosly on the throttle so I can still feel it moving.

,...so what's wrong with that?

[Mutley1013]

I hold the collective exactly the same way too. Maybe Paul means completely off the throttle which would indeed not be a sensible thing to do.

[Reely340]

thx for all the clarifications!
Apparently there is one place only where one holds the R44 throttle-grip and this is the same spot the governor is actuating against, limited by a slipping clutch.
Thus an R44 governor has to work "against" either too strong a throttle friction setting or too strong a pilot's grip (or both).
Both situations will render the governor effectively "inoperable" as per design!

My assumption what got him is that it was a case of stress induced control-grippitis.
So the governor might well have been working as designed but was overpowered by external force,
which let to RRPM in the 80% range (that is what the pilot quoted to me)

Clearly pilot error, but I'd encourage Robinson to come up with an enhanced "split- throttle grip" design where the pilot's hand normally would grip a section that is non-turning ("pitch only")
and only a small section of the grip's length - say the final two inches compose the actual, twisting throttle function - normally operated by the governor, and undisturbed by the pilots hand.
In case of emergency the pilot's hand would slide forward and overpower the governor. Is that idea feasible? Does such enhancement already exist?

[Reely340]

Regarding the topic: why do you call this a gov failure?? in the german text I can read "er einen Leistungsverlust gehabt" which is a power loss. Lycoming engines are very reliable so an engine failure is highly unlikely, fuel starvation or low fuel with a high angle of bank turn? On final approach you can have vortex ring... The R44 turned due to a plane departing, in the turn you loose lift, rate of descend increases, if the turn was 180 degrees then they had wind from behind etc. Or maybe they ran out of power (slow speed, out of ground effect) and overpitched, unlikely with 3 pob in a R44 unless very heavy pax and lots of fuel.

That is what I immediately questioned the pilot, if he had to abort the landing on final due to an ignorant plank driver entering the runway. :suspect:

He dismissed the media report as nonsense. Tower ordered the plane to hold position and it complied flawlessly.
He admitted that he was at 80ft when he noticed the 80% RRPM.
He had not noticed the horn or the low rpm light, guessing that his ANR headset cancelled out most of the horn's tone.
He'd like the horn to be fed into the intercom and/or a brighter low rpm light, but admitted that he missed the RRPM droop, presumable due to heavy radio communication,
as this was a end-of-the-year GA gathering at a small airfield, with quite some traffic.

So no blame game from his side.

[Robbiee]

Hmm, I've worn a Zulu for years and never had any problem hearing the horn. What ANR headset does this dude use?

[Gordy]

No they do not all have governors. I learnt on a R-22 HP and flew R-44 back when it first came out in 93 with no governor.

[tu154]

When workload is high, attention tends to narrow and many things just don’t break through. People do or don’t do things and just aren’t aware.

[Hot and Hi]

Hmm, I've worn a Zulu for years and never had any problem hearing the horn. What ANR headset does this dude use?
Same here, with a Pilot ANR, and now a Bose A20 ANR headset. No issues with hearing the horn.

And pls don’t make the light brighter neither, some of us fly at night!

[Robbiee]

No they do not all have governors. I learnt on a R-22 HP and flew R-44 back when it first came out in 93 with no governor.

I have also flown an HP, as well as a couple Astros, they had governors, so I'm willing to bet that they've all been upgraded by now?

,...though I'd still love to check out an Astro that hasn't...if I could ever find one?

[Hot and Hi]

Thus an R44 governor has to work "against" either too strong a throttle friction setting or too strong a pilot's grip (or both).

There is no throttle friction in a Robbie.

Clearly pilot error, but I'd encourage Robinson to come up with an enhanced "split- throttle grip" design where the pilot's hand normally would grip a section that is non-turning ("pitch only")
and only a small section of the grip's length - say the final two inches compose the actual, twisting throttle function - normally operated by the governor, and undisturbed by the pilots hand.
In case of emergency the pilot's hand would slide forward and overpower the governor. Is that idea feasible? Does such enhancement already exist?
Sounds like a good idea. GUIMBAL does it that way.

[aa777888]

Same here, with a Pilot ANR, and now a Bose A20 ANR headset. No issues with hearing the horn.

And pls don’t make the light brighter neither, some of us fly at night!
And no problem with David Clark DC ONE X headsets, either.

[aa777888]

No they do not all have governors. I learnt on a R-22 HP and flew R-44 back when it first came out in 93 with no governor.
Back in 1996 or thereabouts the FAA issued an AD requiring governors on all R22 and R44 helicopters. The AD further prohibited flight with the governor off except for emergency procedure training purposes (failed governor), thus an operating governor is required for dispatch.

Neither the R22 nor the R44 is difficult to fly without the governor. As Paul already mentioned, the correlator works quite well. Nevertheless, the FAA felt it was prudent to have an operable governor in a low inertia design like the R22 and R44.

Other than training out any tendency to grip things too tightly, this is a non-existent problem not requiring any additional technical solutions. You can override the governor the same way on any governor-equipped piston machine. Indeed, you need to be able to do this in order to enter an auto with a working engine. If you are properly trained you won't have a death grip on the throttle and the governor will do its job. If you do get a low rotor RPM indication the automatic, trained response should be to lower collective and roll throttle on, something that is easy to do if a death grip is already established. And properly performing this latter action is a specific training requirement of SFAR 73 (not the death grip part ;)). And, if you really feel you must only keep thumb and forefinger on the throttle, simply sliding your hand back a couple of inches, as Paul alludes to, solves that problem as well, although I agree with him in that it is not a preferred habit to get into.

[Ovc000]

He admitted that he was at 80ft when he noticed the 80% RRPM.
He had not noticed the horn or the low rpm light
So no blame game from his side.

Not knowing the real cause of the accident of course but the pilot surely doesn't have a good scanning technique missing the 80% Rrpm and that bright orange light indicating low Rrpm.
I've hade Bose and Lightspeed ANR and never failed to hear the low Rrpm horn in a Robbie or any other heli with warning sounds. You can even hear the Rrpm's once you get some flying hours.
Part of the startup checklist is check the low Rrpm horn and light.....
Short final, losing ETL, I still have my money on overpitching, trying to stop a high ROD. Sadly at 80ft you don't have much time to lower the lever and go around.

Hand on throttle. I always teach students to keep their hand on the throttle and not just before the throttle. You can feel sudden throttle changes indicating something is going wrong. For sure in a carbureted engine like the R22 and some R44's, if you miss the carb temperature going below 0, then you might feel the throttle being opened more and more.
Don't know if this R44 was carbureted or not otherwise carb icing could even be a cause. Still all easily to spot with a good scan (part of proper training).

[Reely340]

Hmm, I've worn a Zulu for years and never had any problem hearing the horn. What ANR headset does this dude use?Zulu 3 AFAIK.
Probably not really a technical issue after all. But still, feeding audible warning info into the intercom path might be a good idea in environments, where cockpit noise exceeds B747 levels.

[Reely340]

Not knowing the real cause of the accident of course but the pilot surely doesn't have a good scanning technique missing the 80% Rrpm and that bright orange light indicating low Rrpm.
I've hade Bose and Lightspeed ANR and never failed to hear the low Rrpm horn in a Robbie or any other heli with warning sounds. You can even hear the Rrpm's once you get some flying hours.
True. In my manual throttle S-300C 80% would come down to a measly 2480 ERPMs, defnitely an alerting change in ambient noise, even for a student / casual pilot.

Don't know if this R44 was carbureted or not otherwise carb icing could even be a cause. Still all easily to spot with a good scan (part of proper training).
Interesting thought! It is this one https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/keyword/G-ODOC R44 Astro S#0372

[Ovc000]

Interesting thought! It is this one https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/keyword/G-ODOC R44 Astro S#0372

To my knowledge the R44 Astro has a carburetor......and it surely was cold that day.....
Not saying the pilot didn't use full carburetor heat before descending but if he didn't, then on short final, the 'throttle valve' could have been partly blocked with ice, restricting fuel flow, the throttle will open more and more to desperately try to get more fuel flowing (hence why it's a good thing to keep your hands on the throttle so you can identify it if you missed it on the gauges).
All speculation of course but it is a rumour network.

[n5296s]

fwiw I've never had the slightest trouble hearing the low RPM horn - and a good job too. I've flown with Bose A20 and Lightspeed Zulu and PFX, and the same applies to all of them. It is LOUD, as indeed it should be.

I was wondering about the remark concerning the way to hold the collective/throttle too. I've always been taught to hold it just behind the throttle, with just thumb and forefinger on the throttle.

The place where I did my heli primary lost an R22 to a soloing student who heard the low RPM and instantly went into autorotation - good. But she rolled the landing, end of R22, though luckily she was unhurt. My instructor (and hers) said that he'd noticed she had a tendency to over-control the throttle...

[Robbiee]

I can feel the throttle twisting just fine with just a couple fingers lightly touching it.

[clearedtocross]

To my knowledge the R44 Astro has a carburetor......and it surely was cold that day.....
Not saying the pilot didn't use full carburetor heat before descending but if he didn't, then on short final, the 'throttle valve' could have been partly blocked with ice, restricting fuel flow, the throttle will open more and more to desperately try to get more fuel flowing (hence why it's a good thing to keep your hands on the throttle so you can identify it if you missed it on the gauges).
All speculation of course but it is a rumour network.

The earlier R44 (Raven I) are all carburated, only the Raven II have fuel injections. Problem with the carburated ones is that the governor compensates carb ice until the throttle is fully open with no indication to the pilot except the turning of the throttle grip. Rpm and manifold pressure remain static until there is no throttle way left. Once the rpm drops, you are in deep trouble as the engine may not provide enough heat anymore to clear the manifold. We flew all carbed Robinsons with the carb heat on when outside temp was below 15 degrees C. Fuel guzzling but safe.

[Paul Cantrell]

That's how I've been doing it for years. I still keep a couple fingers loosly on the throttle so I can still feel it moving.

,...so what's wrong with that?

There are two reasons I discourage it with our students.

One is, as you might guess, that I prefer people to be able to twist the throttle without having to first reposition their hand, for instance in order to do a hovering auto ( if the tail rotor fails in a hover ). You also can't turn the governor off without first having to reposition your hand.

The other reason is that the R44 collective is already sensitive and moving your hand onto the metal tube makes it even more so. If that's not clear, I mean that the more you slide your hand toward the attachment end of the tube, the less mechanical advantage you have. This means you have to use more force to move the collective, while trying to move it a shorter distance. It's my personal belief that this can cause (student) pilots to over control the collective. It's a small difference, but I think noticeable.

In the end, you should do whatever works for you. It's just a personal preference, but those are the reasons I don't like our students to be taught that method.

[Paul Cantrell]

Hmm, I've worn a Zulu for years and never had any problem hearing the horn. What ANR headset does this dude use?

I've complained to Robinson about this... and found Tim Tucker to be very dismissive of the issue. I have flown R44s with my Lightspeed headset where it knocks the low RPM horn volume down enough to be almost inaudible. All it takes is a little radio traffic at the wrong time... I flew one customer's aircraft where I pretty much needed to see the light to tell that the low RPM warning system was active.

I actually feel pretty strongly that the warning horn should be carried by the intercom/headset... the word "criminal" comes to mind given the prevalence of noise canceling headsets in use these days... You shouldn't ever have to struggle to hear that warning system over background noise... Whether it's music, screaming passengers ( from fear or fun ) or radio traffic, that warning should be LOUD.

[Paul Cantrell]

No they do not all have governors. I learnt on a R-22 HP and flew R-44 back when it first came out in 93 with no governor.

Gordy, I was responding to the title "all R44", not all Robinsons... I didn't remember that the Astro R44 started without a governor. There were not a lot of R44 on the east coast, I don't remember, but Robinson was probably limiting R44 sales to the west coast at first. Larry Durocher from Northeast Helicopters ( the first east coast Robinson flight school ) arranged to bring in an R44 for people to fly. I remember I wouldn't let my son go higher than a hover with me, because the #1 R44 had crashed and the cause was not yet known:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/384x256/image_8a9e5c69c936afe127b880f43fa4951c21aef9b8.jpeg

As for R22s, I learned in R22 standards and HPs. By the time I was taking lessons, they all had tip weights, but a friend who started 2-3 years before me remembers flying the standards without tip weights. There were no rotor brakes or aux fuel tanks, and none of our aircraft had any gyro instruments. Oh yeah, no voice activated intercom, you had to use the push buttons, which Robinson must have paid $0.01 for, because they never worked. The lack of governors increased the CFI's workload considerably ... Basically the instructor WAS the governor, we would always be tweaking the RPM to keep it in the green. The green range was something like 97-104 but students would have excursions all the time, so we would have to keep an eye on the RPM.

We had the #2 R22, N32AD at our school. It's now in the Smithsonian. It had already been converted to an HP when I was flying it. The cockpit was an inch or two narrower than all other R22s, which made it difficult to do hover autos from the left seat if the door was on... Your wrist would get jammed against the door. You had to do a two step motion... Roll the throttle to idle, reposition your hand, roll the throttle the rest of the way into the override...

When the R22 governor was first introduced, it would move the collective. This sounds like a good idea... It could actually lower the collective to recover RPM. It actually sucked, and was soon replaced by the R44 governor design which only moved the throttle.

[aa777888]

The earlier R44 (Raven I) are all carburated, only the Raven II have fuel injections. Problem with the carburated ones is that the governor compensates carb ice until the throttle is fully open with no indication to the pilot except the turning of the throttle grip. Rpm and manifold pressure remain static until there is no throttle way left. Once the rpm drops, you are in deep trouble as the engine may not provide enough heat anymore to clear the manifold. We flew all carbed Robinsons with the carb heat on when outside temp was below 15 degrees C. Fuel guzzling but safe.You can still buy Raven I's, it's still a current model.

As long as you do your job managing carb heat per the relevant POH, R22 or R44 (and they are different in this area, so go read carefully), you should not have a problem. Just like you shouldn't have a problem in any other carb-equipped piston engine aircraft. Get behind the power curve (hah, a pun!) on your carb heat management and you could have a problem. I'm not sure when it came into use, but newer R22 and R44's have a carb heat assist system that helps manage the carb heat. See Section 4 in the Raven I POH. Also Safety Notice 25.

This is one thing about the G2 that I am jealous of, which is the electronic, automatic carb heat system on that aircraft. It would be very nice to see a similar system on the R22 and R44 Raven I's, and a power limit indicator to go along with it. I've heard rumors that Robinson is working on electronic engine instrumentation. That would be a very welcome addition since Robinson has already fully embraced Garmin glass and Genesys HeliSAS for those willing to pay for it.

[Robbiee]

You can still buy Raven I's, it's still a current model.

As long as you do your job managing carb heat per the relevant POH, R22 or R44 (and they are different in this area, so go read carefully), you should not have a problem. Just like you shouldn't have a problem in any other carb-equipped piston engine aircraft. Get behind the power curve (hah, a pun!) on your carb heat management and you could have a problem. I'm not sure when it came into use, but newer R22 and R44's have a carb heat assist system that helps manage the carb heat. See Section 4 in the Raven I POH. Also Safety Notice 25.

This is one thing about the G2 that I am jealous of, which is the electronic, automatic carb heat system on that aircraft. It would be very nice to see a similar system on the R22 and R44 Raven I's, and a power limit indicator to go along with it. I've heard rumors that Robinson is working on electronic engine instrumentation. That would be a very welcome addition since Robinson has already fully embraced Garmin glass and Genesys HeliSAS for those willing to pay for it.

They can do what they want to the 44, but I prefer my 22s to be simple and Spartan. Just an old Beta ('cause I hate that carb heat assist) no glass, just the basic old five pack, simple transponder, and radio,...don't even need a gps. In fact the only upgrades I like are a trigger/voice activated mic, and the newer, white map light!

[Gordy]

Gordy, I was responding to the title "all R44", not all Robinsons... I didn't remember that the Astro R44 started without a governor. There were not a lot of R44 on the east coast, I don't remember, but Robinson was probably limiting R44 sales to the west coast at first.

You are prolly right, I have not flown a Robinson since 1997. I have certificate # 11 for the R-44 factory course and flew serial #7, the first one outside of the LA basin. We lost it 6 months later after the Venti crash, (the first R-44 crash), and Frank invoked the recall.

As for the HP---we all loved it because it made touchdown autos a breeze with the battery in the nose.

As for low PM--the R-22 will still maintain directional control in the hover at 70% RPM---it was a demonstration we did with all student pilots. People tend to frak out these days with low RPM---I think over the years there has been a scare tactic. Same with Low G----that used to be allowed and was a required maneuver for the CFI check ride.

[Robbiee]

As for low PM--the R-22 will still maintain directional control in the hover at 70% RPM---it was a demonstration we did with all student pilots. People tend to frak out these days with low RPM---I think over the years there has been a scare tactic. Same with Low G----that used to be allowed and was a required maneuver for the CFI check ride.

Well, they do tell us that "Catastrophic rotor stall could occur if the rotor rpm ever drops below 80% plus 1% per 1,000 feet of altitude"...so, yeah, I'd probably frak out if it got near 70!

[Gordy]

Well, they do tell us that "Catastrophic rotor stall could occur if the rotor rpm ever drops below 80% plus 1% per 1,000 feet of altitude"...so, yeah, I'd probably frak out if it got near 70!
The purpose of the demonstration was to instill confidence and fine tuning in the throttle...freaking out is not good....just gently and smoothly wind it back on.....

[Robbiee]

The purpose of the demonstration was to instill confidence and fine tuning in the throttle...freaking out is not good....just gently and smoothly wind it back on.....

Think you kinda missed the point there? If its gonna stall at 80, wouldn't you fall to the ground before reaching 70?

,...or does it not really stall at 80?

[Gordy]

Think you kinda missed the point there?

Nah....I think you mis-read my post. I said the demonstration is done on the hover......and the purpose was to show the effectivness of the TR and to get the student to manipulate the throttle slowly with purpose, without freaking out.

The stall you refer to would be on the retreating side, and to be honest I have not worked out the math to determine the percentage it would stall at, but there would be many factors---primarily forward speed.

[212man]

Think you kinda missed the point there? If its gonna stall at 80, wouldn't you fall to the ground before reaching 70?

,...or does it not really stall at 80?

i think you should spend more time reading the posts.

[Robbiee]

Nah....I think you mis-read my post. I said the demonstration is done on the hover......and the purpose was to show the effectivness of the TR and to get the student to manipulate the throttle slowly with purpose, without freaking out.

The stall you refer to would be on the retreating side, and to be honest I have not worked out the math to determine the percentage it would stall at, but there would be many factors---primarily forward speed.

No, I got that your point was about not freaking out. My point however, was simply, they say it stalls at 80, so why is it not stalling at 70?,...as I don't recall them mentioning that you must have forward speed to get low rpm rotor stall?

I will consult my texts then.

[Bell_ringer]

The purpose of the demonstration was to instill confidence and fine tuning in the throttle...freaking out is not good....just gently and smoothly wind it back on.....

The limits were under auto-rotation IIRC, under power is a different kettle of fish.

[Paul Cantrell]

No, I got that your point was about not freaking out. My point however, was simply, they say it stalls at 80, so why is it not stalling at 70?,...as I don't recall them mentioning that you must have forward speed to get low rpm rotor stall?

I will consult my texts then.

The 80% is predicated on an engine failure where the helicopter starts to descend... As the helicopter descends the relative wind from below increases the angle of attack, stalling the blade.

I flew with one person who described a demo a cfi gave him where they flew around the pattern at 70%... The problem being that if the engine had failed, the rotor would have stalled no matter how fast the collective had been lowered.

Of all the interesting things to explore in helicopter aerodynamics, this is one corner of the envelope I've never been tempted to play in...

[212man]

I flew with one person who described a demo a cfi gave him where they flew around the pattern at 70%... The problem being that if the engine had failed, the rotor would have stalled no matter how fast the collective had been lowered.

Sounds like someone to stay well clear of! Apart from the sure death outcome of a power loss, I’m pretty sure the mechanical stresses on the blades and head will be totally outside their design assumptions.

[Gordy]

they say it stalls at 80, so why is it not stalling at 70?,...as I don't recall them mentioning that you must have forward speed to get low rpm rotor stall?

Yes with forward airspeed---you will get retreating blade stall. NOT in the hover.

Go try this, I assume you have access to an R-22: Establish a stabilized 2 foot hover, turn off the governor and SLOWLY wind down the throttle to 70%, (and I mean SLOWLY), as you do, you will be constantly adding collective and left pedal. Then slowly wind throttle back on again---repeat a few times till you are comfortable. Worse case if you screw it up, you will just settle to the ground, at which point start again.

I am certainly NOT trying to get you to go outside your comfort zone, but merely trying to expand your comfort zone in a safe manner. Feel free to do this with an instructor, (forgive me if you are one---I do not know).

Hopefully you will learn something and feel better about it---I try to learn something new every day.

For the person who flew a traffic pattern at 70%---- I am sorry there are bad CFI's out there----I echo 212man's comment---"Stay well clear of this person".

[Robbiee]

Yes with forward airspeed---you will get retreating blade stall. NOT in the hover.


Actually, I've been inquiring about "rotor stall" not "retreating blade stall",...I though that was obvious, but whatever.

Anyway, Paul answered my question, thanks.

[Bell_ringer]

Actually, I've been inquiring about "rotor stall" not "retreating blade stall",...I though that was obvious, but whatever.

Anyway, Paul answered my question, thanks.

perhaps try be less rude to people that have forgotten more than you will ever know.

[Robbiee]

perhaps try be less rude to people that have forgotten more than you will ever know.

Seems one more thing you forgot is that senteces begin with a capital letter?

[Bell_ringer]

Seems one more thing you forgot is that senteces begin with a capital letter?

ooh, that's awkward. Completely ruins your moment. :E

[Robbiee]

ooh, that's awkward. Completely ruins your moment. :E

Oh crap, I've forgotten how to spell! Does that mean I get to join your, "forgotten more than you'll ever know" club?,...is there a secret handshake, or passphrase,...oh wait, you've probably forgotten have you? Anyway,...

Text me when the next meeting is :8

[cattletruck]

Isn't it a prerequisite with these low inertia lighties to lead every manoeuvre with the RRPM? Left pedal turns pre-governer days in a strong breeze were always a bit busier than normal in the engine RPM department. We were taught to gently hold the collective with our little finger resting on the pole and the rest on the throttle grip so that you could sense the amount of throttle twist applied by you, or the correlator, or the governor. Mind you that governor seems to do a great job when it's working well, but that's no reason to not still lead every manoeuvre with the RPPM.

[aa777888]

Mind you that governor seems to do a great job when it's working well, but that's no reason to not still lead every manoeuvre with the RPPM.That's certainly not taught for Robinson equipment. I can't say why for certain, but if I had to guess it's because the green arc for engine RPM is so small on these helicopters, less than 4%, that most people are likely to do more harm than good. And also because the correlator is sufficiently good that if you are careful and gentle, as you should be when the governor has failed, entire circuits can be flown without once touching the throttle even with governor off (for training only, of course, in accordance with the US FARs).

Do you yourself actually fly a Robinson manually leading with the throttle (and overriding the governor) like that?

[Robbiee]

,...but that's no reason to not still lead every manoeuvre with the RPPM.

The Robby throttle has too much friction to fly it that way. In fact governor off training is always kind of bitch for that very reason,...it makes the throttle feel sticky and small adjustments are hard to make.

The S300, on the other hand, has a very lose throttle and can be manipulated very easily with just a couple fingers. However, the instructors I flew it with never instructed me to lead with the throttle.

The only helicopter I've ever flown where I was instructed to lead with the throtle was an Enstrom,...and that's actually a high inertia machine.

[cattletruck]

To the last two posters, I said lead with RRPM not lead with throttle - subtle difference as the throttle is not the only way to control RRPM although it is considered the primary method within limits.

When I got my ticket them governors didn't exist in Robbies and yes that narrow green band was one of my main gripes with the product as it forced you to keep looking inside at often critical stages of flight when you need to be looking outside. I also never found the correlator to be as useful as you describe it and the throttle constantly needed adjustment to keep it at the top of the green, and learning to make tiny throttle trim adjustments on that very sensitive throttle did take some time to do well. With the governor models it's a doddle and there is no need to fight it as it does a very good job when it's working well, you just maintain a light grip around the throttle (with little finger resting on the pole) in order to feel it working so that you can let your eyes focus on what's outside.

[Robbiee]

Weeeell, I don't even wanna know. I'm out :hmm:

[Reely340]

To my knowledge the R44 Astro has a carburetor......and it surely was cold that day.....
Not saying the pilot didn't use full carburetor heat before descending but if he didn't, then on short final, the 'throttle valve' could have been partly blocked with ice, restricting fuel flow, the throttle will open more and more to desperately try to get more fuel flowing (hence why it's a good thing to keep your hands on the throttle so you can identify it if you missed it on the gauges).
All speculation of course but it is a rumour network.Good thinking! Maybe this was part of the problem. I've got to ask him about carb heat setting.

Personally, I regard carburated aircraft as stupid, inherent risk, especially considering that since 1970 even the S-300C had fuel injection. It is beyond me why anyone would want to use a carburated engine since then. What they might save in money is not even remotely compensated by the operational risk the bring with them.
Neither icing nor the guimbalish low-G float bowl hickupps are possible with fuel injection.

[Reely340]

Interesting! We have
fwiw I've never had the slightest trouble hearing the low RPM horn - and a good job too. I've flown with Bose A20 and Lightspeed Zulu and PFX, and the same applies to all of them. It is LOUD, as indeed it should be.

and then there is
I've complained to Robinson about this... and found Tim Tucker to be very dismissive of the issue. I have flown R44s with my Lightspeed headset where it knocks the low RPM horn volume down enough to be almost inaudible. All it takes is a little radio traffic at the wrong time... I flew one customer's aircraft where I pretty much needed to see the light to tell that the low RPM warning system was active.

I actually feel pretty strongly that the warning horn should be carried by the intercom/headset... the word "criminal" comes to mind given the prevalence of noise canceling headsets in use these days... You shouldn't ever have to struggle to hear that warning system over background noise... Whether it's music, screaming passengers ( from fear or fun ) or radio traffic, that warning should be LOUD.
The pilot defnitely described heavy raido traffic, as it was a fly-in type meeting.

But of course, there still is the low RRPM warning light.

[aa777888]

Still not buying the idea that the low RPM warning is not loud enough to hear even with radio traffic. Radio volume levels, if set to a proper conversational level, do not in any way mask the warning horn, regardless of the type of headset you are wearing.

However, it is possible to have a weak or malfunctioning warning horn, which is why testing it is a before takeoff checklist item. I've personally experienced a weak/failing horn and it's definitely not a smart idea to fly like that.

P.S. you know you are a well trained Robinson pilot when your car's low fuel warning buzzer causes your left arm to snap down :}

[gator2]

aa: yes, that is a well trained response. I was asleep on a commercial turboprop and awoke to the engine note changing on approach. Jerked awake and tried to pull the carb heat knob my fogged brain thought was on my seatmate's knee. Took a little explaining.

[homonculus]

Unless the horn has been modified since I flew this ship, it was very loud and easy to hear with ANR headsets including Bose.

My money is on lack of carb heat and perhaps the following is relevant

The pilot defnitely described heavy raido traffic, as it was a fly-in type meeting.

I gather the pilot had only owned the aircraft for a couple of months. High cockpit workload, lack of familiarity, failure to deal with loss of power on the approach