Race to the bottom [Archive]

Fidoda

30th Dec 2019, 14:27

WTF are you on about? Oh and CASA don't care.
Okay you're being a bit rude.

This is Lockhart River all over again! You clearly have no idea who I am!

CASA will care.

Another example of how companies in Australia are using pilots to not only pay for a course but not get paid to fly. WOW, they can earn a wage at McDonalds!

Asturias56

30th Dec 2019, 15:47

Fidoda - you aren't making a lot of sense - what ARE you on about? Presumably you feel that someone has either ripped you off or is ripping of others. The Mods are pretty jumpy about things that might lead to legal action so cool down and try and state the facts of your case calmly. I see there is an attachment awaiting approval - something to do with the Saab 340??

tail wheel

30th Dec 2019, 22:54

Pilots whose documents are selected will take a Skype video interview with the Flight Operations management of our partner airline before starting the CASA Saab 340 type rating course in Australia.
Immediately upon completion of the type rating course, pilots will report to our partner airline based in the southeast Asia / Pacific area to complete the Airline Operator Conversion Course followed by 500 hours as a Saab 340 First Officer during passenger scheduled operations with the option to extend the program for an additional 500 hours. There is no salary involved while attending the program.

"Flight Operations management of our partner airline before starting the CASA Saab 340 type rating course in Australia." Possibly REX?

".....pilots will report to our partner airline based in the southeast Asia / Pacific area ...." Possibly not REX?

CASA may not have an interest if the FO flying component placement is in Asia or the Pacific?

The attachment is from Eagle Jet International (http://www.eaglejet.net/), Miramar, Florida.

P.S. No posts have been deleted, moved or amended in this thread.

thorn bird

30th Dec 2019, 22:57

Oh dear, a fool and his money are soon parted comes to mind.

Fidoda

31st Dec 2019, 00:09

I think paying passengers might be a little concerned about the FO's not being paid whilst flying them around!

Fidoda

31st Dec 2019, 00:20

Can't imagine it would be REX. They pay their FO's under a pilot agreement.

Paragraph377

31st Dec 2019, 01:14

Lockhart River all over again? Has the ‘Collins class submarine’ left his PNG gravy train and gone back to working for CASA AUS in Cairns again?

Now, where’s my broom and a corner of carpet. Sweep...sweep...sweep

Brakerider

31st Dec 2019, 01:33

Could be a Corporate Air tie-up, as they already have some cadet style scheme with Flight Options.

larrylowlevel

31st Dec 2019, 02:50

Brakerider, you may possibly be correct there. CA operate blue and white Saab’s but also have an all white one (possibly pictured in the Eaglejet Attachment). CASA def need to stop this grubby money saving tactics in its tracks

If you are correct, I have a friend there who actually mentioned once some F/O’s come in with 50 twin hours
Furthermore, some of the Captains won’t even allow the FO to carry out landings, after some pretty frightening incidents.

krismiler

31st Dec 2019, 02:54

At least you get hotel, meals and transport while doing a night stop.:rolleyes:
With the current shortage of pilots, you’d need to be pretty desperate to take on conditions like those.

lucille

31st Dec 2019, 04:46

Looks like an “opportunity” for someone with a rich daddy. $60K or thereabouts for a Saab 340 type rating plus another $40K in housing and living expenses while you build up the 500 hours of (cough, cough) “quality” airline experience. Assuming the crusty old captain with, in all likelihood, dodgy credentials even lets you touch the controls. Hey, what can go wrong?

The really concerning thing is the requirement for a CASA licence which points towards the aircraft being VH registered. In which case, CASA should be interested.

zanthrus

31st Dec 2019, 08:59

Fidoda
1. I am not being rude. You posted a statement expressing outrage that a post was deleted or whatever but no details of what the post was about. Hence, W.T.F.?
2. I don't care who you are.
3. A SAAB 340 at 10 tons is definitely not a heavy!
4. Best of luck with CASA.

Fidoda

31st Dec 2019, 09:22

Wow, I don't know who you are, but you seem very upset by my post.

You don't care who I am, but other people do.

If you have ever have experienced losing someone in a plane crash, where it take a month to retrieve their remains, then maybe you would understand my position.

I am expressing my concern that clearly not lessons have been learned after Lockhart River and Operators continue to take advantage of young wannabe pilots desperate to earn their stripes.

Companies like this, need to be made accountable. They are greedy and want to line their own pockets. Do you think it's right that some young FO pays for a course and then gets paid nothing?

I'm sure the media might be interested in this?!

Fidoda

31st Dec 2019, 09:32

BTW - it's not 10 tons it's 13 tons thereabouts!

AmarokGTI

31st Dec 2019, 09:40

This is absolutely nothing to do with Rex.

morno

31st Dec 2019, 10:25

I think there was bigger issues at play in Lockhart River buddy.....

Qwark

31st Dec 2019, 11:04

Fidoda - Do you expect anyone would know who you are based in your post? What are you talking about?

zanthrus

31st Dec 2019, 11:08

Fidoda

I am not upset at all. I am actually amused by your rantings, keep it up mate!
13 tons or even 20 is not a heavy. A 737 Classic at 68 tons is a MEDIUM, so a SAAB is not a heavy.

I actually knew the FO on Lockhart River. He was in my ATPL class. A good bloke but in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Another bloke in the same class died in a 310 within a few months.

Lots of people here have lost mates in aircraft crashes over the years, including myself. Don't assume that you are the only one.
Pull yer head in.

Asturias56

31st Dec 2019, 11:49

Fidoda - Do you expect anyone would know who you are based in your post? What are you talking about?
"Companies like this"

We have NO Idea who you are talking about Fidoda....................

Fidoda

31st Dec 2019, 23:19

morno

31st Dec 2019, 23:30

Zanthrus,

I am going to be polite about this, but losing a mate is a little different to losing your husband of 14 years, because the system failed him. So please don't tell me to pull my head in!

The FO should never have been there, as he wasn't even approved to do that approach, and had very low hours. The company he worked for were cutting corners.

The point I'm trying to make, that this company, and I think Larrylowlevel may be on to something, is again cutting corners. How many Saab operators are there in Australia? Not too many!

Having been through such a traumatic experience, I can not stand by, and see another potential accident that could have been avoided happen again.

The Captain shouldn’t have been there, the aircraft shouldn’t have been there, no one should have been there.

You are aware that pilots all over the world fly in much larger aircraft than a SAAB 340 with very low experience as well?

I don’t doubt your loss was extremely difficult, but I think you’re also jumping to conclusions for which you’re not qualified to give.

Buswinker

1st Jan 2020, 00:03

Errr, I lost a spouse in a plane crash as well. It was and is traumatic but your post still makes zero sense

(notably, both crew had a lot of hours experience including military experience but still managed a CFIT)

can you at least give us something to go on here?!

Fidoda

1st Jan 2020, 00:23

You shouldn't assume anything!

Clearly some of the people on this forum think that there is no problem with a company charging for a course and then paying their FO's nothing!

I'll sign off and take my concerns elsewhere.

compressor stall

1st Jan 2020, 00:23

And whilst I think it's immoral and wrong what is being offered, I cannot see how CASA can care about it. The type rating course is being done in Oz and presumably all above board there. The candidate pays up front for that. Nothing new or unusual there.

But the "employment" sans pay for 500 hours is undertaken in a foreign country at a "partner airline". Hardly CASA's problem nor jurisdiction. Airlines have partners all over the globe and they are not CASA's concern (unless they present some increased insolvency risk to the parent Aussie company which I doubt in this case)..

I knew the folk involved in Lockhart, and I am sorry for your loss, but if you want to attack the system to improve it (and there are many areas that it needs) I don't think this sorry employment exploitation arrangement is the barrow to push as it's not happening in Oz.

Paragraph377

1st Jan 2020, 01:07

Fidoda, much appreciate your post. I imagine the details are somewhat fractured as you do not wish to reveal too much information, fair enough. It’s just a bit hard to follow the intent of your post and what your main concerns are, if we don’t have a few more of the gaps filled in. But there has certainly been too many deaths caused by shonky operators and an incompetent Regulator.

There were numerous causal factors to the Lockhart crash - organisational culture, pilot error, weather, regulations and CASA, in fact, from memory in accordance with the findings of the Hawke Taskforce, was that CASA's Regulatory Reform Program be brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible to provide certainty to industry and to ensure CASA and industry are ready to address future safety challenges. Hmmmm, that was 13 years ago and the reform program still isn’t complete and there has been subsequent serious accidents at Canley Vale, Norfolk Island, and others. It’s just a matter of time.......

krismiler

1st Jan 2020, 12:38

The really concerning thing is the requirement for a CASA licence which points towards the aircraft being VH registered.

Could it possibly be an operator in a Pacific island nation which would likely recognise an Australian licence ? There are a few Saabs in The Cook Islands and Tonga, Solomon Airlines used to specify an Australian licence in their job adverts but they don't list any Saabs in their fleet.

Mach E Avelli

17th Jan 2020, 00:44

It may be no coincidence that SEEK is advertising for various Saab drivers and management pilots. The end user appears to be Real Tonga. Tonga is not exactly flush with cash, so it is quite possible they hope to get First Officers to pay to fly while presumably spending Mummy and Daddy's money living in the country. Pilot nationality seems not important, so they may just attract desperados from the sub-continent.

Fidoda is right to be concerned about this activity, as any operation unable to pay its First Officers is likely to be taking other short cuts. But unless the aircraft are operating in Australian airspace, or on an Australian AOC, there is nothing any authority here can do about it. Even if the aircraft are VH registered, if on dry lease, it is unlikely CASA would take much interest for as long as the aircraft remained offshore.

If the operation is entirely domestic, ICAO can't touch it either, other than to black list the operator. But for that they need grounds, such as a lack of competent authority conducting the over-sight, history of accidents etc. So, Fidoda, you are wasting your time with CASA; maybe try ICAO, but I doubt you will get any action, because they have no interest in pilot exploitation matters any more than does CASA.

F.Nose

23rd Jan 2020, 22:21

I think the problem Fidoda is alluding to is not so much that the operator is 'unable' to pay their FOs (unlikely), but more so the experience levels of those willing to work for those who don't.
The questions which need to be answered are.....Are they really able to provide the required levels of support in a sometimes very challenging environment? or Are they literally Flap Operators?

I think we can also assume the alleged Company of reference is mentioned in post #12.