Totals 2019

[v1r8]

Where do you work ? Equipment / seat and year ? How much did you make ?

Always a good thread I think for contract comparison. Let’s all make sure we keep raising the bar for each other. Happy New Years to all my colleagues and friends around the world !

American LCC / A320 / FO year 3 / $155.000. This includes my DC (retirement contribution from the company and per diem).

Disclaimer : I picked up zero premium trips last years and drop / trade trips to where I have 17/19 days off a month. My health is worth more than more money.

[yxcvmnb]

FO, A320, EU LCC (2nd year).
About 40.000 EUR (gross pre-tax and socials, which i arrange on my own, and pay very little).

Puts things into perspective. Still feel like a rich man after all those years instructing for peanuts.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Always a good thread I think for contract comparison

They’re only good if you say where you work. You even ask that as your first question but then go in to not say where you work.

as for €40k gross, :{​​​​​​​

[dirk85]

European orange low cost, year 3 FO, A320, 60k-ish € net in hand plus private and public pension contributions that I can't be bothered to calculate, around 640 block hours by year end.

[Luray]

FO ATR 72, EU LLC, 2nd year. Euro 42k before tax. After new year salary cut due to this and that.

[NoelEvans]

They’re only good if you say where you work.
Very valid point.
as for €40k gross, https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif
In some parts of some countries that is probably a very comfortable income. Clearly to the perception some in other places it is not...

What free time do you have? Evenly spread through the year, that is. That is better for health than money is (going back to the original post).

[giggitygiggity]

Very valid point.

In some parts of some countries that is probably a very comfortable income. Clearly to the perception some in other places it is not...

What free time do you have? Evenly spread through the year, that is. That is better for health than money is (going back to the original post).

Exactly, I assume that’s either Wizz or Lauda perhaps... Wizz for example, have bases in a host of Eastern European countries undergoing a difficult transition to the western world.

Take Romania for one. The average annual wage is €11,580. €40,000 (one of the earlier posters salary) is 3.5 times the average wage. On the other hand, the average wage in the US is €42,000, therefore the American FO earns roughly 3.2 times the average wage. As much as the Germans will try to convince you, Europe isn’t a federal state. Salaries and conditions are different in different countries. If you don’t like your conditions, you’re free to look elsewhere for work (unless going forward, you’re British but I’ll leave that one there).

Standards of living differ vastly across Europe and obviously, salaries will mirror that. $155,000 will get you a lot more in Mississippi than $155,000 will in California or DC!

The 8 sectors a day trope another die hard posted is frankly rubbish. I work for a European LCC carrier and preference 2 sector days (as a relatively junior captain). I’ll probably do 10-15 days of 3 sectors or more a year - the same is true for the FOs at my outfit with the same bidding presence. A massive difference too is that pilots at the European LCCs for the large part get to spend every night at home with their families. That’s worth a heck of a lot. Anecdotally of course, but I don’t think that’s true for the majority of US legacy and LCC pilots I’ve spoken to on my travels.

[Banana Joe]

European cargo airline, 737, year 1 FO, basic €72k gross, plus a few benefits such as LOL and medical coverage. 350 hours.

[Caboclo]

US DC-9 car parts hauler. 3rd year FO, upgraded to captain in October. $119k gross. Probably around 300 hours for the year. Average 5 nights away from home per month. Had Christmas and New Years off every year I’ve been here. Not looking for anything better.

[hans brinker]

6 year, left seat USA ULCC.
Average 15 days of a month.
700 block
Total pay $240K
+ $35K pension plan
+ $6K per diem/uniform....

[spanishCDT]

What a difference between USA and Europe..... :sad:

[hunterboy]

Let’s hope no US legacy pilot posts otherwise it will really upset the Europeans.

[semmern]

Let’s hope the EU manages to imitate the US aviation scene within not too many years.

oh well, I might as well try fitting pigs with wings.

[RexBanner]

RHS A320 Tarnished British Flag carrier. Single Runway Operation
Total Gross: About £80K including allowances. (1 week of unpaid leave is included in this figure). Year 4.
Hours flown in 2019: just under 700
Take Home monthly average £4800 (after 6% pension contribution, company pays 15%)

I commute but still on average I manage at least 20 nights a month in my own bed, pretty unique situation I would say and I’m very fortunate. This company takes an absolute caning from most people in all areas (rightly in some) but overall I’m happy enough with my lot, I’d struggle to find a short haul commuter (FO wise) in the UK right now who’s got a better overall deal. The company is clearly not what it was but still provides options to suit you, which I have exploited.

In all likelihood I should get a long haul move in 2020/21 which would be a pay rise, reduce my tax burden as my pay rises (due to dipping under the UK 90 night maximum and able to be domiciled for tax in my little crown dependency), reduce my commuting cost footprint but on the flip side introduce jet lag and give me less nights in my own bed (unless I go part time). Hence it’s not a straightforward decision anymore whether to do it. But I don’t really fancy flying the 737 Max in a couple of years..

[Banana Joe]

Let’s hope no US legacy pilot posts otherwise it will really upset the Europeans.
Nah, we've got a reasonable good lifestyle.

But I do like NASCAR!

[737Driv3r]

737 RedNose EU LCC, Year 3 FO, about 65k € net plus LOL, 2/6% pension,and food included 🤣🤣🤣
Based in sunny Spain.
Going 70% part time for 4 months now but with 80% pay.
Love the extra days off at home

[Chief Willy]

Year 6/7 FO, longhaul at Big Airlines. Average about £5-£5.5k net a month. Company pays 15% into pension. No real bonus scheme any more. Will not take shorthaul command as I cannot afford the pay cut nor do I wish to work that much harder.

[bex88]

Chief Willy: 100% spot on. I am a few years ahead of you on the pay scale. P1 Airbus and my take home is the same as yours. 840hrs

[Selfmade92]

Total: $66k USD for the year, pretty happy for my 1st 2 flying gigs.

[TBSC]

My local swimming centre pays £25k a year for a reception job.
Of which you can't save a penny (or even need to take loans to survive) while you can save 20-30% of even the miserable 40K if you live in Poland, Hungary or Romania.

[Riskybis]

VA RHS year 3 pay scale , £81,866 , fixed 750 hr limit per year
787-9 , max 4 trips per month , been averaging 2 lately due engine issues which has been great,
take home is around £4500 with 6% (15% from company) pension conts... full private healthcare etc..

allowances now world wide rate so not as good as before but inline with other airlines , prob save around $450 per month on a 4 trip month .

Cons : wish we had more routes
Management is a pain
wish the day off incentive was better

Pros : good crowd to work with
lots of days off
still sociable down route

by no means is it perfect but i find it better than Big Air

[dirk85]

All the americans have little to brag, because we all remember not many years ago when a regional FO was making less than 20k USD gross. Less than the receptionist mentioned above.
They make more in good times, but when s**t hits the fan, furloughs and pay cuts hit much harder on that side of the pond.
And I would rather be unemployed in good old europe, compared to the states.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

In some parts of some countries that is probably a very comfortable income.

It doesn’t matter whether it provides a decent living or not, it’s about reward for responsibility and for your expertise.

[safelife]

Central European touristic carrier, captain in 2nd year, 120k€ before tax, which is slightly north of 7k€ net monthly, 700 hours, two nights away in total (all year!). Four working days in winter per month, but busy in summer...

[PGA]

LHS ME A380 €222.920 net, this is inclusive of all allowances / pension contributions etc etc.

Flown just shy of 400 hours but spent quite some time in the box.

Overall fairly happy with the work / life balance but this is largely due to my personal (job) circumstances.

[Boeing 7E7]

TUI Airways: Captain, £180,000 per year (P60), high 800 hours in that year.

[Boeing 7E7]

. The top 1% of UK tax payers (roughly training Captain pay level and above) pay more than a third of the country's total income tax revenue - The bottom 42% pay nothing. and then have the cheek to endlessly implore the government to put the whole lot into the bottomless pit that is the disfunctional NHS. (which rather conveniently, they didn't contribute a penny towards, but desperately need, to deal with their morbid obesity/diabetes/etc)

.

Lets lobby the government to join the top 0.1%, who hold 56% of the nation’s wealth, yet pay less tax as a proportion of their wealth than anyone else. Perhaps that is worth considering when we vent our frustrations...

[jriv]

Alaska Airlines A320 Captian.

$335k USD plus $50k USD contribution to retirement fund, totaling $385K

16 days off a month

About 900 hours flight time.

Can somebody explain why you guys don't name the airline you work at? I thought the point was to let job-hunters know what they can make at a specific airline.

[TheAirMission]

easyJet, A320, European Base, 3rd year FO (5% Loyalty kicking in this month), 740 Hrs Full Time, Gross €76000, Net €48000. Third stripe in a few months adding €1000/month after tax

[dirk85]

Alaska Airlines A320 Captian.

$335k USD plus $50k USD contribution to retirement fund, totaling $385K

16 days off a month

About 900 hours flight time.

Can somebody explain why you guys don't name the airline you work at? I thought the point was to let job-hunters know what they can make at a specific airline.

That's a lot of hours, with that amount of days off.

[misd-agin]

That's a lot of hours, with that amount of days off.

That's an average of 5.2 hrs per day if he had 16 days off per month. 365-192 = 173 flying.

[EcamSurprise]

EU LCC LHS A320.

Part time 7/7 70% contract since April.

400 flying hours in 2019.

Total gross for the year €140000
Net €86000

We missed out on our bonus this year though.

[DooblerChina]

TUI UK, LHS none trainer 75/76, 15 off a month, £165k plus 26k company pension contribution. 800 hours/year. 3-5 nights away.

[Check Airman]

That's a lot of hours, with that amount of days off.

I’d guess he/she is based on the west coast and does a lot of transcons. Not hard to imagine with their route structure.

[jriv]

I’d guess he/she is based on the west coast and does a lot of transcons. Not hard to imagine with their route structure.

Thats pretty accurate.

[VinRouge]

Year one in commercial longhaul, having finished 12 years as a military aircraft commander.

Over a £20k increase in salary (including allowances) as a Year one FO. 10k company pension, free healthcare, cycle-to-work, talk of salary sacrifice car finance, plus amazing staff travel perks on a huge network, great workforce and couldn’t be happier. Pilots Jobs network has accurate salary figures.

Been a busy year though. Will finish on 900 hours.

[Riskybis]

Year one in commercial longhaul, having finished 12 years as a military aircraft commander.

Over a £20k increase in salary (including allowances) as a Year one FO. 10k company pension, free healthcare, cycle-to-work, talk of salary sacrifice car finance, plus amazing staff travel perks on a huge network, great workforce and couldn’t be happier. Pilots Jobs network has accurate salary figures.

Been a busy year though. Will finish on 900 hours.
what company ?

[Captain-Random]

UK Turboprop
400hrs 2019
RHS
£28k (no extras)

[Mansnothot]

Year one in commercial longhaul, having finished 12 years as a military aircraft commander.

Over a £20k increase in salary (including allowances) as a Year one FO. 10k company pension, free healthcare, cycle-to-work, talk of salary sacrifice car finance, plus amazing staff travel perks on a huge network, great workforce and couldn’t be happier. Pilots Jobs network has accurate salary figures.

Been a busy year though. Will finish on 900 hours.

Useless when you don’t mention who you work for or what you actually make.

[VinRouge]

Useless when you don’t mention who you work for or what you actually make.

UK flag carrier, salary as per PPJN, Thot.

[zero/zero]

UK flag carrier

Virgin Atlantic?

[ROMEOVICTOR]

EU Regional airline, 1st year F/O
43,000 € gross
550 hours year
Based in Spain.

[Stocious]

Virgin Atlantic?

Huge Network? :rolleyes:

[Riskybis]

Literally should be :
Name of Airline
Aircraft Type
Position
Salary
Days Off
Trips per month
Anything else interesting

[Hank Moody]

KLM,
777/787
relief fo
750h
75.000gross +42%pension ectra
14days off average
3,5 trip
LOL is really good

-hotels could be better

[Denti]

EU LCC right hand seat, year 2 (albeit on year 5 pay), 101k gross, 66k net, 540 hours per year on a full time contract. Plus pension contributions of course, 174 days off including vacation.

[flyingmed]

A330
First officer / relief captain.
EUR 90,000 gross basic pay, +/- EUR 20,000 allowances, up to EUR 15,500 bonuses + 35% pension
No short haul, minimum 2 days off after medium haul, minimum 4 after long haul.
2 - 8 trips per month.
46 days annual leave.
Normally 450 - 650 hours a year.

[TriStar_drvr]

Southwest
B-737 Captain
490 hours block
98 days worked plus 4 paid recurrent training days
$235,000 plus $35,000 to pension fund
Expect an additional 10-12% ($23,000-$27000) profit sharing added to pension fund

Note: I gave away trips. Base pay for a Captain is higher than my earnings.

[Doug E Style]

Big UK Airline
A320 FO
Part-time contract (3/4 of normal)
240 days off (average 10 days on/20 days off per month)
520 hours
Gross £58k (usually 15-20% higher but I didn't feel like "helping out" this year).

Interesting to compare to Denti who did similar hours on a full time contract but he/she earned more but had fewer days off.

[FlightDetent]

For the US salaries, what would be the coefficient from GROSS to NET ? Once you retire over there, would the medical insurance cover still continue?

[sekmeth]

German LCC RHS A320
first year FO
56000 before tax and roughly +6000 flight pay/away from base pay. No overtime, 400hrs on a fulltime contract

[jriv]

For the US salaries, what would be the coefficient from GROSS to NET ? Once you retire over there, would the medical insurance cover still continue?

my net will be around $217k on $335k gross. I live in California. The state of California got about 30% of those taxes paid and the federal government got the other 70%. California is a high-tax state. The tax numbers are just an estimate at this point (will file my tax return in the spring), but should be pretty close.

The federal government provides health care for cheap after you turn 65. Somehow this doesn’t get everybody mad about “socialized medicine,” which is a good thing I guess.

[Check Airman]

For the US salaries, what would be the coefficient from GROSS to NET ? Once you retire over there, would the medical insurance cover still continue?

It will vary quite a bit from person to person. As you make more, the percentage increases. If you’re single, most narrowbody FO’s will be in the ~25% tax bracket. You pay less if you’re married, and even less if you have children.

Some (not all) states impose a state tax as well. Likewise, some cities like NYC will also tax its residents.

Other things you do (or don’t do) will change your tax liability.

[pudoc]

my net will be around $217k on $335k gross. I live in California. The state of California got about 30% of those taxes paid and the federal government got the other 70%. California is a high-tax state. The tax numbers are just an estimate at this point (will file my tax return in the spring), but should be pretty close.

The federal government provides health care for cheap after you turn 65. Somehow this doesn’t get everybody mad about “socialized medicine,” which is a good thing I guess.

What is the pension like and how does it work?

[jriv]

US airlines used to have “defined benefit” pension plans where the company promised to put money away for you and you’d get a certain amount of money each month until both you and your spouse died. That was taken away in bankruptcy court after 9/11.

Currently the major airlines are putting 15-16 cents for every dollar you make into a retirement fund that is owned by you. There are rules that apply to how you can use that money, but essentially you can’t touch it until age 65 unless you want to take a big penalty and pay a bunch of taxes on the disbursement.

So if my gross pay for a month is $10,000, the company deposits another $1,000 in my retirement fund (created by section 401(k) of the tax code, so commonly called a 401(k) account).

The deposits are pre-tax, the money is managed by either you or a professional investment company, and the money is taxed as you withdraw it in retirement.

[pudoc]

US airlines used to have “defined benefit” pension plans where the company promised to put money away for you and you’d get a certain amount of money each month until both you and your spouse died. That was taken away in bankruptcy court after 9/11.

Currently the major airlines are putting 15-16 cents for every dollar you make into a retirement fund that is owned by you. There are rules that apply to how you can use that money, but essentially you can’t touch it until age 65 unless you want to take a big penalty and pay a bunch of taxes on the disbursement.

So if my gross pay for a month is $10,000, the company deposits another $1,000 in my retirement fund (created by section 401(k) of the tax code, so commonly called a 401(k) account).

The deposits are pre-tax, the money is managed by either you or a professional investment company, and the money is taxed as you withdraw it in retirement.

Thanks. Some quick calculations show that the amount in a uk pilot pension isn’t that different to you guys (assuming major uk and major us). But your salaries are frustratingly, significantly higher and I always wonder how that became the case. And how your companies still make big profits with such pay for the workforce.

[jriv]

Thanks. Some quick calculations show that the amount in a uk pilot pension isn’t that different to you guys (assuming major uk and major us). But your salaries are frustratingly, significantly higher and I always wonder how that became the case. And how your companies still make big profits with such pay for the workforce.

Good questions. I suppose it comes down to supply and demand, but it sure seemed like there were enough applicants for the majors before the current big union contracts.

The real pressure was at the lower rungs of the industry where people just weren’t willing to work for the peanuts that were being offered. Around 2013 retirements kicked back in after the 5-year lull due to the mandatory retirement age going from 60-65, and at the same time the 1500 hour rule also kicked in (even first officers need to now have at least 1500 hours). The regionals had to increase pay to attract and keep pilots. I guess those increasing wages pushed wages up further up the career ladder.

[Check Airman]

US airlines used to have “defined benefit” pension plans where the company promised to put money away for you and you’d get a certain amount of money each month until both you and your spouse died. That was taken away in bankruptcy court after 9/11.

Currently the major airlines are putting 15-16 cents for every dollar you make into a retirement fund that is owned by you. There are rules that apply to how you can use that money, but essentially you can’t touch it until age 65 unless you want to take a big penalty and pay a bunch of taxes on the disbursement.

So if my gross pay for a month is $10,000, the company deposits another $1,000 in my retirement fund (created by section 401(k) of the tax code, so commonly called a 401(k) account).

The deposits are pre-tax, the money is managed by either you or a professional investment company, and the money is taxed as you withdraw it in retirement.

This is pretty accurate, except after earning $10,000, the company would put $1,500 into the retirement fund. The only airlines I’m aware of that still have a pension plan are Fedex and UPS. They’re at the top of our compensation ladder.

[Check Airman]

And how your companies still make big profits with such pay for the workforce.

It does make you stop and think when you hear a manager say “you guys are our largest expense”, doesn’t it?

[jriv]

This is pretty accurate, except after earning $10,000, the company would put $1,500 into the retirement fund. The only airlines I’m aware of that still have a pension plan are Fedex and UPS. They’re at the top of our compensation ladder.

Oops! Right.

[linmar]

SAS (Stockholm)
A320 FO, 1st year
€43k gross (incl taxable per diem)
583 hours/293 sectors (1,350 hours duty)
Average about 3-4 nights away/ month

First 2,5 months were in training.
5 weeks of unpaid leave (parental), a couple of unpaid sick days.
Pension contribution approximately 4,5%

[oboema]

KLM
FO 777 (since june 2019. FO737 before that)

2019= €187.465
3 to 4 trips a month; company pays 45% pension contribution, aiming for retirement at 58.

Flown 680hrs last year.

[misd-agin]

For the US salaries, what would be the coefficient from GROSS to NET ? Once you retire over there, would the medical insurance cover still continue?

My overall tax rate, including SS, Medicare, and state taxes is 31% +/- a couple of tenths. Estimate came out to be 30.5% - 31.2%. At a certain point all of your deductions stay the same and any additional income is taxed at 45.2% (federal income tax, state income tax, Medicare 1.2%).

That is for the highest earning bracket. Income tax brackets go up, SS is 6% up to $133K, and Medicare is 1.2% across the board. So the more you make after $133K the lower the effective tax rate from SS (eff. 3% at $266K income, 2% at $399K, etc). So federal and state income tax goes up, SS goes down, and Medicare stays flat as a percentage of income at higher income totals.

[hoox]

Swiss
FO LH (changed from SH in 2019), 7th year
gross= ~120.000CHF (incl. bonus, excl. ~10k per diems & ~20k pension)
SH 9-11 days off per month, 10-15 nightstopps
LH around 4 trips, 12-15 days off

[cessnaxpilot]

All the americans have little to brag, because we all remember not many years ago when a regional FO was making less than 20k USD gross. Less than the receptionist mentioned above.
They make more in good times, but when s**t hits the fan, furloughs and pay cuts hit much harder on that side of the pond.
And I would rather be unemployed in good old europe, compared to the states.

what’s the point of your post? The times of the low regional pilot pay in the US was definitely made worse by the supply and demand, which I think Europe is seeing now. I doubt you’ll ever see regional wages in the US going back that much. Even in a downturn.

having been unemployed on both sides of the pond, I can tell you it’s equally painful on both sides. That said, in Europe it’s often misunderstood that there is actually an unemployment benefit in the US. It’s changed a lot in Europe too. In Germany (for example) you receive a lot less and for a shorter time, than was historically received. In France it might still be the best place to be unemployed... I’m not sure. In any case, I don’t find much value in your post and I’m wondering if I misunderstood your point. I wish the best for pilots everywhere! Let us all see improvements in our profession.

[cessnaxpilot]

12 yr wide body FO cargo US. Gross $339k (includes company $33k into retirement and per diem) worked 13 days a month. I worked some extra trips when called... which they did call.

[v1r8]

aiming for retirement at 58.

Flown 680hrs last year.

This guy gets it. Gelukkig Nieuwjaar!

[derjodel]

Let’s hope no US legacy pilot posts otherwise it will really upset the Europeans.

Or... let's hope no Europeans mention functioning and accessible public health care and schooling systems (including universities). It might upset Americans ;)

It goes both ways. Hard to compare net salary as it's not apples to apples.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

easyJet Captain continental base.
187,000 € including flight pay, but excluding a pitiful 5.5% pension.
650 block hours in the last year, 12-13 days off per month with fixed roster pattern plus 30 days annual leave.
No nightstops except for twice to the sim per year.

[cessnaxpilot]

Or... let's hope no Europeans mention functioning and accessible public health care and schooling systems (including universities). It might upset Americans ;)

It goes both ways. Hard to compare net salary as it's not apples to apples.

There is a saying, “Once you’ve lived in more than one place, you’re not happy anywhere.” When I’m in the US, I miss things back in Europe. When I’m in Europe, I miss things in the states. There are parts of society in both places that are fantastic and enviable. I won’t go into my preferences, but I’ll say both sides have their advantages.

I used to say we both have stability and the rule of law, but that’s now a bit crazy! Austria has has some right wing nuts, the UK is going through a bit of what the US is going through. And France is... well, France! It’s crazy times!

[FRYVA]

Also worth bearing in mind c.10-11 years ago the USD/GBP fx rate was c.2.1/1 on what was then considerably lower salaries across the board in the US combined with considerable furloughs/uncertainty.

As somebody else alluded to; element of apples and oranges and I remain hopeful the pendulum will swing back a bit at some point!

[NoelEvans]

Full time contract.
200 Days Off per year, evenly spread through the year (that is exactly the same in any 'currency' and totally non-taxable!).

[NoelEvans]

It doesn’t matter whether it provides a decent living or not, it’s about reward for responsibility and for your expertise.
giggitygiggity has summed this up quite well in Post #7.

[zero/zero]

giggitygiggity has summed this up quite well in Post #7.

But they are incorrect. We’d all like it to be.. but the reality is that it’s market forces and a shortage of pilots is the only thing that will drive up the remuneration

[NoelEvans]

zero/zero, I fully agree. You can earn what your customers can afford you to earn. In some places they can afford less and it is cheaper to live there, then you will earn less. As simple as that. In some stages of economic cycles your customers can afford less so you will earn less. Your expertise is only valuable when it is in short supply. When the economic cycle, or whatever other factor comes into play, results in there being too many with your expertise, you will earn less. Ask pilots at Thomas Cook, Monarch, Astraeus, Baby, Gill ... ... Dan Air, Orion,etc., etc. And looking further afield, Primera, Wow, Air Berlin, Sabena, Swissair, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff and so on and on and on. When the money dries up your 'expertise' is worth nowt. As you pointed out, it's market forces dear boy, market forces.

[MPPCAG]

Cathay Dragon (Hong Kong based)
A330
Captain
Expat B Contract
Just over HKD3,000,000 including housing and school fees.
8-11 G days per month
10 weeks leave by attaching days off to leave (set to reduce to 6-7 we hear in 2021, no more attaching days off to leave)
Lots of change coming
Don't care though, resigning soon, money bucket has enough in it, **** bucket filling up rapidly!
Avoid joining on current contracts....
Glad to be on my way soon.

[vin2001]

Thomas Cook Airlines
RHS
A321
Hours flown = 0
Salary = 0
Days off = 365
Pension = 100%
Day off payment incentive doesn't really exist.
Uniform is dirt proof.

[vin2001]

Joining Big Airways on the A320 so good to see the input.

[Pilot238239]

easyJet
RHS A320 regional base
Net pay for 2019 was £45K however I only started getting sector pay midway into the year so the tax year (Apr 19- Apr 20) will be nearer to £49K
720 hours
No nightstops

[byrondaf]

easyJet, London base
4+ years, take home average £4500/month (bond scheme), 7% pension
650 hours, fixed pattern, 12/13 DO per month plus 25 days leave
3 nightstops in more than 4 years.

[aot549566]

Name of Airline:
BA
Aircraft Type
A320
Hours flown
750 hours
Position
FO (FPP) 2 years in.
Salary
32k basic plus around £1500 pcm duty + flight play
Busy all year round at Heathrow around 12 days off per month. At Gatwick it’s very quiet in the winter with around 15+ days off per month

[EGBD]

SEBBES,

Thanks for sharing info, looks like you've had a good year given due consideration for the TR deductions.
I personally am against the TR deductions, I really think it should just be training bond contract like most airlines offer, I'm sure TUI would have a lot more applicants if this was the case. But obviously they must be getting the numbers required so I guess the TR deduction will stay in place until otherwise.

My question is, if you join TUI with a B738 rating how long are you frozen on type?
Also if you have a successful bid to change fleet to the 787 will you then be offered a conventional training bond contract? Or despite having time in the company, will there still be a TR deduction?

Thanks again!

[SEBBES]

SEBBES,

Thanks for sharing info, looks like you've had a good year given due consideration for the TR deductions.
I personally am against the TR deductions, I really think it should just be training bond contract like most airlines offer, I'm sure TUI would have a lot more applicants if this was the case. But obviously they must be getting the numbers required so I guess the TR deduction will stay in place until otherwise.

My question is, if you join TUI with a B738 rating how long are you frozen on type?
Also if you have a successful bid to change fleet to the 787 will you then be offered a conventional training bond contract? Or despite having time in the company, will there still be a TR deduction?

Thanks again!

Slight thread creep but..
I can only say I completely agree with you. I would be much more in favour of the airline introducing a "traditional bond" - nothing up front but pay X amount if you leave, depreciating over 3 years as an example. The way I had to look at it personally was, even with the deduction, it was a considerable improvement in both pay and lifestyle so it was a very easy decision to make.

Type rated candidates joining are bonded for 1 year at a 7k (total) deduction. Joining non type rated like myself I am fleet frozen for 3 years, so could only bid for 73/78 dual as opposed to 78 only. Type rated candidates who join are fleet frozen for 1 year. My understanding of guys who joined when I did and successfully bid for 73/78, is relatively poor so I can't shed much light on it. If after 3 years I am successful for a 78 only bid there will be no further deduction in salary -that I do know.

As a whole though, despite the deduction its genuinely crazy how little you can work in the winter and what you can earn on a full time contract still. No complaints from me, I haven't flown since the 12th of December and my next flight is 18th of Jan, just as an example.

Hope that helps.

[EGBD]

Thanks for reply, appreciate it! :ok: Enjoy being semi-retired in the winter months!

[N4865G]

ME3
6yr B787 SFO
880 hrs
Bit over 105K EUR per year net (no taxes here)
Company accommodation provided.
On average 16-18 days OFF per month
Around 4-5 trips a month.

Dom

[alonso1986]

Irish LCC
B738
Captain (3 years)
Continental EU
5 on 4 off roster (12-16 days off per month)
Total 2019: 735 hours in 229 sectors
Gross: 141k €
Net: 91k € (single no children)
Av Monthly: 7.6k €

Far from US figures but not that bad considering I’m based where I’ve always wanted...

[Lazydogg]

Irish LCC
B738
Captain (Training/Checking and one or two ground duties)
UK
Roster: Weekends off
Total 2019: 570
Gross: £170k

[nowhereasfiled]

Airline: Titan
Type: A320
Position: FO (1st year)
Salary: £52530 Basic before tax- 5k/ish in allowances/per diems.
Roster: Incredibly varied.
Days off: At least 8 per month, more in winter.
Lots of positioning and night stopping when operating for other carriers out of base, 30 minute standby callouts. Occasional trips, Banjul etc.

[WS pilot]

WestJet Airlines
CYYC based
Yr. 7/8 B737NG Captain
Totals in CAD currency
Base salary- $187,000
Employee share purchase plan ( tax sheltered in RRSP/TFSA)- $35,700
Stock option/Restricted share unit payout (inflated this year due to ONEX purchase of WJA)- $128,000
Profit share- $7,500
Total 2019 tax-eligible compensation: $358,200
Total 2019 tax-exempt compensation (Per diems/dry cleaning): $8,200
2019 hours flown- 580
2019 credit hours- 950
Worked 132 days after vacation/statutory holiday days taken into account

2020 estimates (more normalized considering the ONEX purchase of WS will not be included. Also years of service now in effect in Collective Agreement eg. year 7 FO upgrades go to yr. 7 Captain, not yr. 1 Captain as before)

Yr. 12 B737NG Captain
Base salary- $209,500
Cash bonus (in lieu of ESPP and stock option grant)- $52,198
Profit share (estimate) - $8,500
Total- $270,198
*Assumption of hours flown to be slightly higher when MAX comes back online*

[futz]

United SFO 787 CA
salary $425,000 (not including any premium pay)
retirement $68,000
profit sharing (est) $34,000
3 trips per month for 6 months-16 days off
2 trips per month for 6 months-20 days off (vac months)
918 actual flight hours per year
30 flown trips per year

I lived in California for 25 years and made a lot of money on the houses that I lived in but also paid a LOT of state income tax. Two years ago I moved to Nevada and am saving about $4,000 per month in state income tax and living expenses as a result. (Nevada has no state income tax and is a lot cheaper than California.)

Federal income tax in the US is now pretty low under our relatively new federal tax system. I expect it will take about 26% of my salary and profit sharing.

[Ascoteer]

United SFO 787 CA
salary $425,000 (not including any premium pay)
retirement $68,000
profit sharing (est) $34,000
3 trips per month for 6 months-16 days off
2 trips per month for 6 months-20 days off (vac months)
918 actual flight hours per year
30 flown trips per year

I lived in California for 25 years and made a lot of money on the houses that I lived in but also paid a LOT of state income tax. Two years ago I moved to Nevada and am saving about $4,000 per month in state income tax and living expenses as a result. (Nevada has no state income tax and is a lot cheaper than California.)

Federal income tax in the US is now pretty low under our relatively new federal tax system. I expect it will take about 26% of my salary and profit sharing.

Wow. Know any single American girls?

[Riskybis]

United SFO 787 CA
salary $425,000 (not including any premium pay)
retirement $68,000
profit sharing (est) $34,000
3 trips per month for 6 months-16 days off
2 trips per month for 6 months-20 days off (vac months)
918 actual flight hours per year
30 flown trips per year

I lived in California for 25 years and made a lot of money on the houses that I lived in but also paid a LOT of state income tax. Two years ago I moved to Nevada and am saving about $4,000 per month in state income tax and living expenses as a result. (Nevada has no state income tax and is a lot cheaper than California.)

Federal income tax in the US is now pretty low under our relatively new federal tax system. I expect it will take about 26% of my salary and profit sharing.


that is amazing !!! Europe needs to wake up

[Meester proach]

That’s about £323000.....to fly a plane. As much as I’d like more pay, I find that amount a tad silly

[stable_checked]

How does an EASA captain with A320 rating get a job in the USA?

[futz]

that is amazing !!! Europe needs to wake up

Like someone pointed out earlier, we got absolutely raped in the 2000's after 9-11 and bankruptcy. I went from 767 captain to 744 captain in 2004 and was making $187K if you can believe that. We've been making up for lost time for about the last 6-7 years but man! It was ugly in the 2000's.

Can this level of pay and benefits continue? UAL does around $40 billion in sales and nets close to 10% so they're making money hand over fist right now but will it continue? Who knows? Going by past experience, every time it gets this good, the bottom falls out and it all goes to sh!t almost over night so we'll see.

[Berealgetreal]

Below is a different perspective.

Australian Major Domestic carrier FO B737 figures in Australian Dollars. 15,000 Total time (mostly jet two crew), degree, 25 years in the industry.

Rough figures:
180,000 before tax (about 155,000 is base rest is rostered overtime)(123,500 USD) (111,500 EUR).
15,000 overnight meal allowances (cash in hand).
18,000 in retirement paid by company per law.
~750 hours.
42 days annual leave.
13x28 day rosters alternating 11/12 days off. Roster comes out a week before it starts.
Mainly 4 sector exhausting days with a significant number of overnights.
Min rest is 12 hours can reduce to 10, 15 at home base.
Food on board varies sometimes good sometimes bad I bring my own back up food.
Lounge entry (unlimited food bev) on long ground turns.
Overtime at roster publish protected (cancelled or changed flights won’t cause a loss of cash going sick/fatigued will).
Hotels mid range.
Little to no progression mainly seniority based.
No commuting rights.
Staff travel pretty good.
Can work extra days if so inclined.
Generally rostered to max duty minus 15-30 minutes for most duties.

After tax per month it comes
to about about $10,500 (7200 USD) (6500 EUR) a month Captains are about $14,000.

The cost of living exceptionally high. Median house price in my area is $8-900,000 and I’m well out of the city nothing flash. Base model European car is $50,000. Credit card bill for a family probably $8000 a month. Everyone has a base level medical insurance from the government (medical system is pretty good). Most pilots and professionals would have private health cover on top. Public school is rubbish, Catholic a few thousand a year Private very expensive and quite commonly the choice for professionals. If you lose your job and have any money/assets you use all that up then unemployment scheme which would barely buy food. A lot of wives work but childcare is again exceptionally expensive so if her wage isn’t high then it’s barely worth it. My wife has to work a few days to stay ahead but we are hardly on struggle street.

Major domestic pilots are above the average wage but not by far for FO’s. Trades would be on about 100, Doctors starting at 2-300k. Police 90 Teachers/Nurses about 100 Hospitality about 50, Regional jet FO about 110.

Tax system sounds similar to EU, Massive above $180,000 and above $250,000 (Capt) they hit their retirement $ as well with a bill in the mail. Each election the top end of earners get punched with some new scheme.

Country running on debt highest on the planet. Borrowed time... (massive personal debt home loans and credit card). People have been living beyond their means for about 20 years. Eating out all the time, going for multiple coffees everyday. No recession in 30 years people have no concept of a downturn.

The crunch is coming as the workers can’t foot the aged pension (government) bill and it’s about to get ugly in the next few years. (Read more and more levies taxes for professionals).
Ageing population getting bigger and bigger. Large (massive) influx of foreigners to keep growth going as there’s nothing else holding the place up.


There is a wages thread in the Australian forum. Reasonably accurate doesn’t get updated much. Most wage negotiations involve trading and generally you can expect 1.5-3%. Jetstar are having a stoush over it at the moment as I believe they’ve had a new rostering system introduced that has them now doing overnights. Tiger their competitor received large pay rises but are part of the much less profitable Virgin Group.

[flyer4life]

United SFO 787 CA
salary $425,000 (not including any premium pay)


Please explain how this is possible when the top FO rate on B787 is $240/hr according to airlinepilotcentral.com.

[Meikleour]

I think he means CA (captain) based in San Francisco (SFO) !!!!!

[733driver]

Correct. In the US they tend to abbreviate captain CA and not CPT. Also, I don't think Senior FO (SFO) is much of a thing there.

[flyer4life]

I think he means CA (captain) based in San Francisco (SFO) !!!!!

Ah of course, my bad. I was thinking CA was California!

It still seems higher than I expected for $352/hr and no premium pay. But I’m not sure exactly what premium pay is, maybe it doesn’t mean getting double time for certain trips which would boost the salary.

What an incredible package, on all accounts it’s MULTIPLES of that of a UK captain. What a pity British born people can’t apply for the green card lottery!

I feel unfortunately Europe will never be like this. We have companies that can operate and recruit across the vastly different economies of the EU, yet the unions are all divided and country specific.

[spacecadet]

Airline: Private
Type: G650
Hours Flown: 600
Salary: $19,500 (@£15,000 month tax free)
Roster: Commuting. No fixed roster, generally 2 weeks on/off. Lots of last minute trips, changes, etc. Mainly very long legs & min rest. We plan & manage the aircraft amongst 5 pilots. Probably spend 4 nights commuting a month.
No pension, no medical, no LOL & no 13th month anymore.
I miss the airlines, the grass isn’t always greener!

[Check Airman]

Correct. In the US they tend to abbreviate captain CA and not CPT. Also, I don't think Senior FO (SFO) is much of a thing there.

I’ve been meaning to ask. What exactly is a “senior FO” in Europe, and how do his/her rights and responsibilities differ from that of a “junior FO”?

Are captains also separated the same way?

In the US, senior captain or FO is merely an informal way to describe your relative seniority.

[giggitygiggity]

I’ve been meaning to ask. What exactly is a “senior FO” in Europe, and how do his/her rights and responsibilities differ from that of a “junior FO”?

Are captains also separated the same way?

In the US, senior captain or FO is merely an informal way to describe your relative seniority.

It just means they're on a different pay and have, on occasion at my airline atleast, slightly changed responsibilities. An upgrade from FO to SFO used to increase crosswind limits (although that has been harmonised now) and in my old base, SFOs were allowed to land on an pretty odd runway off an Surveillance Radar Approach. Those are the only two limitations/differences I can think of between the ranks although both of those have gone (the runway I mentioned is now a taxiway!).

In reality, it's just a difference in terms and conditions (which is what I assume is what you were really getting at). A lot of the new airlines (LOCOs etc) don't have yearly pay scales, at mine, there is 3 ranks before captain. Second Officer, First Officer and Senior First Officer. Someone that joins the airline (easyjet) with experience might enter as an FO or an SFO, though a cadet will join as SO. It takes 3 years to be made SFO from joining so that's not really that long. Pay (in USD for you) is around 65k as an SO, 91k as an FO and 105k as an SFO meaning a pilot with 3 years and perhaps 2500hrs is on $105. One rather crap feature of their contract at my outfit is the SO doesn't get any sector pay, although I've included a rough estimate for sector pay based on a typical number of annual hours (~750). Whilst I feel that after 3 years, that's a decent salary for the UK, it does mean that a career FO (SFO) is never going to earn much more than $105k although after year 3 performance and loyalty bonuses kick in too which might add another 10-15 percent.

The terms aren't world leading but personally, I was satisfied with my lot when I was an FO. When I joined 8 years ago, the starting salary for a cadet pilot was $20k so $65k during my RHS tenure, improvement was rapid, although still needs sector pay for it to feel vaguely fair.

Captains aren't seperated in that way at my airline nor any I can think of. Seniority means nothing at all, no extra leave, no first dibs at vacation/flight bidding, nothing. The salary stays the same, although a lot go part time. The only other thing is loyalty bonuses change, <5 years-5%, 5-9 years 10% and >10 years 15%. Nobody would ever mention seniority like would be discussed at a legacy as it's simply irrelevant.

[Sunrig]

I’ve been meaning to ask. What exactly is a “senior FO” in Europe, and how do his/her rights and responsibilities differ from that of a “junior FO”?

Are captains also separated the same way?

In the US, senior captain or FO is merely an informal way to describe your relative seniority.
SFOs are usually used for long haul ops. The SFO takes the left seat while the Captain rests.

[Check Airman]

It just means they're on a different pay and have, on occasion at my airline atleast, slightly changed responsibilities. An upgrade from FO to SFO used to increase crosswind limits (although that has been harmonised now) and in my old base, SFOs were allowed to land on an pretty odd runway off an Surveillance Radar Approach. Those are the only two limitations/differences I can think of between the ranks although both of those have gone (the runway I mentioned is now a taxiway!).

In reality, it's just a difference in terms and conditions (which is what I assume is what you were really getting at). A lot of the new airlines (LOCOs etc) don't have yearly pay scales, at mine, there is 3 ranks before captain. Second Officer, First Officer and Senior First Officer. Someone that joins the airline (easyjet) with experience might enter as an FO or an SFO, though a cadet will join as SO. It takes 3 years to be made SFO from joining so that's not really that long. Pay (in USD for you) is around 65k as an SO, 91k as an FO and 105k as an SFO meaning a pilot with 3 years and perhaps 2500hrs is on $105. One rather crap feature of their contract at my outfit is the SO doesn't get any sector pay, although I've included a rough estimate for sector pay based on a typical number of annual hours (~750). Whilst I feel that after 3 years, that's a decent salary for the UK, it does mean that a career FO (SFO) is never going to earn much more than $105k although after year 3 performance and loyalty bonuses kick in too which might add another 10-15 percent.

The terms aren't world leading but personally, I was satisfied with my lot when I was an FO. When I joined 8 years ago, the starting salary for a cadet pilot was $20k so $65k during my RHS tenure, improvement was rapid, although still needs sector pay for it to feel vaguely fair.

Captains aren't seperated in that way at my airline nor any I can think of. Seniority means nothing at all, no extra leave, no first dibs at vacation/flight bidding, nothing. The salary stays the same, although a lot go part time. The only other thing is loyalty bonuses change, <5 years-5%, 5-9 years 10% and >10 years 15%. Nobody would ever mention seniority like would be discussed at a legacy as it's simply irrelevant.


Thanks for that detailed write-up. Definitely a very different system.

[Check Airman]

SFOs are usually used for long haul ops. The SFO takes the left seat while the Captain rests.

Stateside, even long haul is just captain or FO.

[Gingerbread Man]

Someone that joins the airline (easyjet)... takes 3 years to be made SFO from joining.

Drifting, but how long do you have to spend as SO now, because until recently the number was around four years. ~1yr flexi, 1yr SO, 2yrs FO (and >2500hrs).

Also, no one who joined since (I think) 2013 has had a loyalty bonus as an FO.

/pedantosaurus

[The Shovel]

Airline: Private
Type: G650
Hours Flown: 600
Salary: $19,500 (@£15,000 month tax free)
Roster: Commuting. No fixed roster, generally 2 weeks on/off. Lots of last minute trips, changes, etc. Mainly very long legs & min rest. We plan & manage the aircraft amongst 5 pilots. Probably spend 4 nights commuting a month.
No pension, no medical, no LOL & no 13th month anymore.
I miss the airlines, the grass isn’t always greener!

I must be misunderstanding your post.
Am I correct in thinking you work 26 weeks (2 weeks On/Off) per year for almost USD$20,000 per month (tax free)? And you miss working for an airline?
In my country, to take home that much money I would have to earn over Half a Million Dollars ($600,000 actually) per year. And to earn that much I would have to fly 100hrs per month, work 6 days per week to acheive those hours. And still require a 20% payrise. Oh, and only have 6 weeks leave per year. I don't know which lush green paddocks you have been feeding in over your flying career, but....

As someone who wants to quit airline flying for a Corporate job, can you please elaborate on what part of airline flying you miss?, or why you are not happy in your current role?

[TheAirMission]

Drifting, but how long do you have to spend as SO now, because until recently the number was around four years. ~1yr flexi, 1yr SO, 2yrs FO (and >2500hrs).

Also, no one who joined since (I think) 2013 has had a loyalty bonus as an FO.

/pedantosaurus
In my orange airline based in Europe I spent 18 months as SO, done about 23 months as an FO and will shortly be an SFO once I have 2,500 hours. my 5% loyalty kicked in on my third anniversary as per contract

[Gingerbread Man]

I’ve forgotten that ‘Europe’ covers a lot of different contracts, haven’t I?! Apologies...

[princeton]

JetBlue (US based LCC)
8. months A320 FO + 4 Months E190 CA (4th year)
US$185K Gross + 15% company retirement contrib. = $213K Total gross (not including. $6K per diem)
$43K Tax (including Social security, Medicare, federal and state Income) = $170K net
450 block hours (2 months offline for upgrade training), very few premium trips = average 17 days off per month

Profit Sharing $0.00 in spite of company earning $800 Million in profit.

[Neufunk]

I must be misunderstanding your post.
Am I correct in thinking you work 26 weeks (2 weeks On/Off) per year for almost USD$20,000 per month (tax free)? And you miss working for an airline?
In my country, to take home that much money I would have to earn over Half a Million Dollars ($600,000 actually) per year. And to earn that much I would have to fly 100hrs per month, work 6 days per week to acheive those hours. And still require a 20% payrise. Oh, and only have 6 weeks leave per year. I don't know which lush green paddocks you have been feeding in over your flying career, but....

As someone who wants to quit airline flying for a Corporate job, can you please elaborate on what part of airline flying you miss?, or why you are not happy in your current role?
Do not underestimate the costs of private pension, medical and LOL. A quite big chunk might go to that. He probably also has activities unrelated to flying, mostly when it comes to managing the planes and stuff.

But yeah, I do agree, he has a pretty nice deal and unless he flew for a very comfy airline most of his career, I can't see why he regrets it.

[RexBanner]

Profit Sharing $0.00 in spite of company earning $800 Million in profit.

Similar attitude to BA then, only with BA the profit is even more extreme, into the Billions.

[futz]

Ah of course, my bad. I was thinking CA was California!

It still seems higher than I expected for $352/hr and no premium pay. But I’m not sure exactly what premium pay is, maybe it doesn’t mean getting double time for certain trips which would boost the salary.

What an incredible package, on all accounts it’s MULTIPLES of that of a UK captain. What a pity British born people can’t apply for the green card lottery!

I feel unfortunately Europe will never be like this. We have companies that can operate and recruit across the vastly different economies of the EU, yet the unions are all divided and country specific.


Sorry about the confusion. I didn’t realize there was a senior FO position (SFO) and I can see how you’d think I was talking about San Fran, Calif (CA).

As far as the pay, I am pretty senior but that salary is based on $352/hour.

SFO-SIN pays 32 hrs plus 5 hrs of FAR117 extension pay. I do 2 of those and 1 other 3 or 4 day trip that pays around 25 for a total of 99 hours per month.

In the 6 vacation months, I only have to fly the 2 SIN trips.

They match 16% of our salary and put it in the retirement account (not taxed). Profit sharing is just under 8% this year and IS taxed.

You can make more money by dropping your awarded trips and picking up premium pay trips if they become available. They pay either 150, 175 or 200% depending on how desperate they are.

I’m doing my taxes now and in 2019 I made taxable income of 495k and will pay 121k federal tax. No state income tax in Nevada.

[iggy]

I’m doing my taxes now and in 2019 I made taxable income of 495k and will pay 121k federal tax. No state income tax in Nevada.

What a blessing!! Can I marry you? 🤪

[back to Boeing]

To take this conversation on a tangent. How is it that on the 2 sides of the Atlantic, particularly the U.K. the pay scales are so vastly vastly different.

[Riskybis]

To take this conversation on a tangent. How is it that on the 2 sides of the Atlantic, particularly the U.K. the pay scales are so vastly vastly different.

I assume it’s because the US has a stable cost of living which is reflected in the pay , whilst in Europe pilots that are used to being poorly paid in Eastern Europe come to BA or Easy etc.... and think the pay is unbelievable compared to the previous airlines, therefore they don’t strike .
just a simple thought process from me , I’m sure I might get some flak for it

[back to Boeing]

I honestly don’t know hence the question. When was the last major strike in US airlines?

[patty50]

To take this conversation on a tangent. How is it that on the 2 sides of the Atlantic, particularly the U.K. the pay scales are so vastly vastly different.

Same as every job. Supply and demand....

Pre-Colgan and 1500 hour rule (plus 65 year old retirement) regional pilots getting paid nothing, majors doing alright but pay cut after pay cut assuming you didn’t get furloughed.

You can argue til the cows come home whether cadets make better pilots but it’s pretty undeniable that by lowering the barriers to entry the price of pilot labour goes through the floor. Hardly helps the cadet either when they spend the first few years wages on training.

[CW247]

Supply Vs Demand and cadet labour are all valid arguments, but increasingly our poor situation in Europe in the face of increasing living costs is due to freedom of movement in Europe.

Wet lease/charter operators like Smartlynx, Avion, Enter Air, TravelService and previously Small Planet (combined 100 aircraft) pay a fixed circa €90k (that's Euros) or GBP75k for captains. They simply wouldn't be able to crew their flights out of UK, Germany and Scandinavia (where they do 90% of their business) if it wasn't for the thousands of Eastern European pilots from Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland who take up those jobs. Those guys pay next to no tax and have their hotel accommodation is paid for wherever they operate in Europe. When they return home for their blocks off they usually retreat to a mansion in the countryside. The Western European pilots usually already live close to their bases so don't get an accommodation allowance and pay about 35% tax on the €90k / £75k. It's not a level playing field.

I don't see this changing after Brexit, if anything the CAA will give these operators the green light to continue operating as it would be seen as a Business to Business agreement between the tour operators or the airlines sub chartering work. We are a completely divided and de-unionised workforce thanks to Big Europe.

[flyer4life]

Sorry about the confusion. I didn’t realize there was a senior FO position (SFO) and I can see how you’d think I was talking about San Fran, Calif (CA).

As far as the pay, I am pretty senior but that salary is based on $352/hour.

SFO-SIN pays 32 hrs plus 5 hrs of FAR117 extension pay. I do 2 of those and 1 other 3 or 4 day trip that pays around 25 for a total of 99 hours per month.

In the 6 vacation months, I only have to fly the 2 SIN trips.

They match 16% of our salary and put it in the retirement account (not taxed). Profit sharing is just under 8% this year and IS taxed.

You can make more money by dropping your awarded trips and picking up premium pay trips if they become available. They pay either 150, 175 or 200% depending on how desperate they are.

I’m doing my taxes now and in 2019 I made taxable income of 495k and will pay 121k federal tax. No state income tax in Nevada.

Thanks for clarifying. I still can’t get to your salary figure of $495k. Using your example months, I see an annual 1038hrs x $352 gives $365k.

I’m curious as I’ve been considering immigration (a close to impossible task) for some time now but wasn’t sure it would be worth the initial step backwards to regional jet and FO again. But I didn’t realise salaries in your range were achievable.

[Busdriver01]

Just saw that Delta will be sharing $1.6bn with its c.90,000 employees this year. They really know how to keep a workforce motivated, don’t they!

[hans brinker]

Thanks for clarifying. I still can’t get to your salary figure of $495k. Using your example months, I see an annual 1038hrs x $352 gives $365k.

I’m curious as I’ve been considering immigration (a close to impossible task) for some time now but wasn’t sure it would be worth the initial step backwards to regional jet and FO again. But I didn’t realise salaries in your range were achievable.

If he gets 100hrs credit every month at $352, add 16% DC (pension plan) and add 8% PS:
1200 x 352 = $422.400
DC @ 16% = $67.584
PS @ 8% = $33.792
total $522K
That would require 30+ years at the company, because he is a senior WB captain at a legacy, but definitely possible, and that is without any premium flying (200%), last year DL was short in the A350 captain category, and a few made close to a million.
On the other hand, when Sully got his AMES rating he made $125/hr as an 18(?) rear captain at UsAir after the bankruptcy took more than half their pay and most of their pension, and many got furloughed for a decade.
The highs are high, the lows are low....

For another perspective, I am a captain at an ULCC, been there 6 years, work 15 days average (normal schedule), blocked about 800hrs, not much premium. Including company pension contribution I made $270K.

[flyer4life]

If he gets 100hrs credit every month at $352, add 16% DC (pension plan) and add 8% PS:
1200 x 352 = $422.400
DC @ 16% = $67.584
PS @ 8% = $33.792
total $522K
That would require 30+ years at the company, because he is a senior WB captain at a legacy, but definitely possible, and that is without any premium flying (200%), last year DL was short in the A350 captain category, and a few made close to a million.
On the other hand, when Sully got his AMES rating he made $125/hr as an 18(?) rear captain at UsAir after the bankruptcy took more than half their pay and most of their pension, and many got furloughed for a decade.
The highs are high, the lows are low....

For another perspective, I am a captain at an ULCC, been there 6 years, work 15 days average (normal schedule), blocked about 800hrs, not much premium. Including company pension contribution I made $270K.

Thanks for that, got it now. Didn’t realise the vacation months would still get 100hrs credit.

A UK easyJet captain of six years service like yourself would be grossing around £135000 plus a measly 7% company pension. Estimate an overall 38% tax rate. Different world eh!

[FlightDetent]

Supply Vs Demand and cadet labour are all valid arguments, but increasingly our poor situation in Europe in the face of increasing living costs is due to freedom of movement in Europe.

Wet lease/charter operators like Smartlynx, Avion, Enter Air, TravelService and previously Small Planet (combined 100 aircraft) pay a fixed circa €90k (that's Euros) or GBP75k for captains. They simply wouldn't be able to crew their flights out of UK, Germany and Scandinavia (where they do 90% of their business) if it wasn't for the thousands of Eastern European pilots from Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland who take up those jobs. Those guys pay next to no tax and have their hotel accommodation is paid for wherever they operate in Europe. When they return home for their blocks off they usually retreat to a mansion in the countryside. The Western European pilots usually already live close to their bases so don't get an accommodation allowance and pay about 35% tax on the €90k / £75k. It's not a level playing field.

I don't see this changing after Brexit, if anything the CAA will give these operators the green light to continue operating as it would be seen as a Business to Business agreement between the tour operators or the airlines sub chartering work. We are a completely divided and de-unionised workforce thanks to Big Europe. While probably the most level headed post about cross-border pilots on the site, still widely off mark TBH. It is quite sad to see how little understanding there is of what you guys are up against. Not judging or claiming anything, just pointing out the information deficit. Not that a thorough understanding would change the downslope. :suspect:


FWIW, in the above pool (2018 figures - paperwork all done, all boxes ticked at the revenue office): 76k € net, on a 14/5 commuting contract with plenty of time the company did not take outside the peak months. LHS A320, 3 months LTC assignment included. Ended up with 350 block hours, total at-home days 205 plus 15 off somewhere downroute, nice places.

t took me quite long to become that schedule-smart and contract savvy to get it, mid-May resignation and re-entry on better terms included. Truth be told that is the maximum in this job market. Crew food and 45 EUR/m phone allowance, not a penny more. .

Comparison for 2020: Smartwings B737 PIC offer stands at 13500 EUR gross (self-employed) on 18/12 contract, 6 months term. A fair expectation is 400 fh at 53k € NET based on yearly total 120 duty / 240 home, assuming staying put and doing completely nothing for the rest of the year. Which puts Racetobottom's 52k for a full year of the pink jive into a very ugly perspective.

I'd be happy to see the Volotea, Laudamotion, Eurowings A330 (!), Vueling, Titan or AirPost numbers.

[USERNAME_]

I'd be happy to see the Volotea, Laudamotion, Eurowings A330 (!), Vueling, Titan or AirPost numbers.

Titan was posted above, Post 93.

[Tay Cough]

How does an EASA captain with A320 rating get a job in the USA?

Marry an American.

[futz]

Thanks for that, got it now. Didn’t realise the vacation months would still get 100hrs credit.

A UK easyJet captain of six years service like yourself would be grossing around £135000 plus a measly 7% company pension. Estimate an overall 38% tax rate. Different world eh!


One other thing I forgot to mention is that $352 is the book rate but we get an additional $6.50/hour for international flying (which is all I do). So it's really $358/hour for the flying hours. (The extra $6.50 doesn't apply to FAR 117 extension pay, or vacation pay.)

The example I gave was $425,000 in salary but that didn't include any premium pay. The 2019 taxable income of $495,000 I mentioned did include some premium trips (and last year's profit sharing).

It's damn good money WHILE it lasts. UAL has 12 flights per day from the US to China and they just announced they're cancelling 8 of the 12 daily flights for February and beyond until they get the virus under control. The whole thing could tank in a matter of months if this escalates.

[macdo]

One other thing I forgot to mention is that $352 is the book rate but we get an additional $6.50/hour for international flying (which is all I do). So it's really $358/hour for the flying hours. (The extra $6.50 doesn't apply to FAR 117 extension pay, or vacation pay.)

The example I gave was $425,000 in salary but that didn't include any premium pay. The 2019 taxable income of $495,000 I mentioned did include some premium trips (and last year's profit sharing).

It's damn good money WHILE it lasts. UAL has 12 flights per day from the US to China and they just announced they're cancelling 8 of the 12 daily flights for February and beyond until they get the virus under control. The whole thing could tank in a matter of months if this escalates.
The thing is, if you are earning nearly 1/2 mil a year, you are, I hope, saving a lot for the inevitable rainy day. In Europe we still get rainy days fairly often and unless you are in the minority of very well paid European pilots, the rainy days are going to be a lot less pleasant. The fella a few posts above at Wizz is a case in point. I have watched with horror my former Thomas Cook colleagues whooping with delight at getting these jobs where they will be earning 1/2 or 2/3 what they were on before. The few winners appear to be those prepared to leave Europe altogether. As CW247 neatly set out, in my career, now ended, we have sold ourselves up the river and when we weren't doing it ourselves, we had our own lazy government and the ideological European Union doing it for us.

[CR9]

United 757/767 First Officer mix of domestic transcon's and Europe flying.
6 months on year 2 pay and 6 months on year 3.
633 hrs, average 16 days off a month and spent about 5 months on reserve (about half of the reserve days were 12 hr call out).
$172,300 flight pay and per diem plus $26,300 to pension. Total salary for 2019 $198,600. (also getting $12,300 profit sharing that I didn't include since its paid out next month).

The discrepancy in hours flown vs hourly pay that many of you see in the US salaries is because we have a lot of pay "rigs" that come into play triggering soft time. Sick and vacation payouts also factor in as well. Did 7 years at EK before UAL and wish I would have made the jump back stateside sooner.

[NoelEvans]

It doesn’t matter whether it provides a decent living or not, it’s about reward for responsibility and for your expertise.

I wonder how Flybe pilots are now feeling about how their "responsibility" and "expertise" is being rewarded.

When the money dries up your 'expertise' is worth nowt. As zero / zero pointed out, it's market forces dear boy, market forces.

(And good luck to those ex-Flybe pilots, many of whom have carried me comfortably from here to there over the past few years, in getting back into the air again as soon as possible.)

[Black Pudding]

I wonder how Flybe pilots are now feeling about how their "responsibility" and "expertise" is being rewarded.



(And good luck to those ex-Flybe pilots, many of whom have carried me comfortably from here to there over the past few years, in getting back into the air again as soon as possible.)

Do you think it was because the flight crews were overpaid that caused the collapse of FlyBe. Do you think if they took a 20% paycut they would of survived and prospered.

[NoelEvans]

Do you think it was because the flight crews were overpaid that caused the collapse of FlyBe. Do you think if they took a 20% paycut they would of survived and prospered.
I never said that being 'overpaid' (or 'underpaid') caused or causes anything. I simply said that you get paid what can be afforded, It has nothing to do with grandiose ideas like "about [being] reward for responsibility and for your expertise.". If the income from the customers isn't enough then that limits what you can be "rewarded". Comparisons with "XYZ pays such-and-such" are irrelevant.

Be very careful about being snooty about 'how little' someone else might be paid. Some of those "not-so-well paid" jobs right now are probably by far the most secure -- not because of the levels of pay but rather the particular sectors of the industry. And maybe those are sectors of the industry that many have been rather snooty about. Those with the 'last laugh' (it's not nice to laugh at others' misery, so that is not intended as such, it is just making use of a well known and used English term) for job security right now are most likely those that many, many others have been rather snooty about.

[RexBanner]

Totals 2020 should be interesting. Probably still more than Totals 2021 though :}

[VariablePitchP]

Adding to the topic
2019
Airline: Flybe SFO 4 years in
Type: Dash 8
Hours Flown: 780
Salary: £52000 with everything (2020 salary looking like £0
Roster: variable. Summer 8 days off a month winter bit more. 4 sector days.

Love the job but aviation is such a rollercoaster. If you want money just go into banking. 10 years in even as an MD your basic would be about £500k plus about the same in bonus the hours are very long though.

Really sorry to hear about your job with Flybe, I think all we can hope for is that your 4 years means you’re a shoe in somewhere when this starts to recover (it has to!)

Wouldn’t advise going into banking if you think you’ll be making 500k after 10 years. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do. In all likelihood you’ll be making 60-70k a year if you’re lucky, doing 60 hours a week starting at spreadsheets and wanting to jump out the office window. Ask most pilots after 20 years if they want to keep flying they’ll say yes, ask most bankers (the 99.9% who don’t have their name on the door) if they want to keep banking and they’ll look at you like you’ve got 2 heads... You’ve made the better career choice!

[Smooth Airperator]

Plus, if you pull your checks apart using two fingers either side of your mouth and try to say pilot, it still sounds like "pilot"

[clvf88]

Really sorry to hear about your job with Flybe, I think all we can hope for is that your 4 years means you’re a shoe in somewhere when this starts to recover (it has to!)

Wouldn’t advise going into banking if you think you’ll be making 500k after 10 years. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do. In all likelihood you’ll be making 60-70k a year if you’re lucky, doing 60 hours a week starting at spreadsheets and wanting to jump out the office window. Ask most pilots after 20 years if they want to keep flying they’ll say yes, ask most bankers (the 99.9% who don’t have their name on the door) if they want to keep banking and they’ll look at you like you’ve got 2 heads... You’ve made the better career choice!

Spot on :ok:

[bombaydude]

I've heard about fantastic pay for pilots in the US , and seen pretty impressive figures here.
I have the impression from speaking to pilots over the years working for major US companies that you get an hourly rate. Quite a few years ago some Continental pilots quoted pay of $185 a flight hour, at the time this was pretty good money..... so long as you do the hours.
So what happens at a time like now?
Genuinely curious.

[dirk85]

In normal circumstances they all have guaranteed flight hours per their contract, in the region of 70 per month, so they make very good money regardless of the amount of flying.
Some companies agreed with the unions a reduced minimum guaranteed in this time of crisis, obviously.

[Check Airman]

I've heard about fantastic pay for pilots in the US , and seen pretty impressive figures here.
I have the impression from speaking to pilots over the years working for major US companies that you get an hourly rate. Quite a few years ago some Continental pilots quoted pay of $185 a flight hour, at the time this was pretty good money..... so long as you do the hours.
So what happens at a time like now?
Genuinely curious.
Here in the US, the pay rates have not changed. Companies have come up with ways to reduce payroll cost, though. Early retirement packages, unpaid leaves and leaves paid at reduced monthly guarantees. All these are voluntary, for now.

[NoelEvans]

zero/zero, I fully agree. You can earn what your customers can afford you to earn. In some places they can afford less and it is cheaper to live there, then you will earn less. As simple as that. In some stages of economic cycles your customers can afford less so you will earn less. Your expertise is only valuable when it is in short supply. When the economic cycle, or whatever other factor comes into play, results in there being too many with your expertise, you will earn less. Ask pilots at Thomas Cook, Monarch, Astraeus, Baby, Gill ... ... Dan Air, Orion,etc., etc. And looking further afield, Primera, Wow, Air Berlin, Sabena, Swissair, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff and so on and on and on. When the money dries up your 'expertise' is worth nowt. As you pointed out, it's market forces dear boy, market forces.
Not in my wildest nightmare could I have dreamt, when I Posted this, that "whatever other factor comes into play" could have been ANYWHERE near at dramatic as what his hitting everyone in the face right now.

Everyone should learn not to be too 'precious' about their "responsibilities" or "expertise". If there isn't the money or the demand for it, it is worth nowt.

I wish everyone the best possible for the outcome from this "other factor" mess.

[SOPS]

I’m guessing all the answers on this thread have now changed a lot. And now.. I’m not happy about it!

[Trossie]

No, not all. I suspect that at least two of those who have posted have not changed.