Admiral Kuznetsov on fire

[jolihokistix]

Plagued by bad luck. Maybe they should ask China to return the Liaoning?
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/12/12/russias-sole-aircraft-carrier-catches-fire-in-northern-port-a68579

[1771 DELETE]

I think that is her service life complete.

[Just This Once...]

Given the smoke it normally belches how did they know it was on fire?

Probably would have been safer if it was moored to its usual dock.

[MPN11]

Plagued by bad luck ... and incompetent dockyard workers, no concept of HSW or engineering rigour, etc. etc. ?

[NRU74]

Given the smoke it normally belches how did they know it was on fire?

Probably would have been safer if it was moored to its usual dock.

I thought its usual floating (dry) dock sank last year and also a crane knocked a huge hole in the flight deck.

[dead_pan]

I'm sure those Russian naval aviators will be breathing a sigh of relief, not having to operate from that clapped out hulk ever again.

I thought its usual floating (dry) dock sank last year

"Err Sergei, how deep is this semi-submersible dry dock supposed to sink?"
"A few metres, give or take. I'm sure it'll come back up any moment..."

[Davef68]

Was it Illustrious that had a bad fire on the 80s?

[Asturias56]

I think when people bang on about how the Russians are a threat they need to remember just how awful their support is...............

[Hot 'n' High]

Was it Illustrious that had a bad fire on the 80s?

1986. An assembly defect in one of the main gearboxes ignited the oil mist therein causing "disassembly" of said gearbox. The ensuing fire took a while to put out. She was setting off on a round-the-world trip, Global 86. She eventually did the second half of the trip which, of course, simply had to be referred to as Global 43. There was only 1 casualty thank goodness but it needed more than a lick of paint to repair the damage. In all, very fortunate and a great credit to the crew for dealing with the major event + those getting her ready for the rest of that trip.

[msbbarratt]

1986. An assembly defect in one of the main gearboxes ignited the oil mist therein causing "disassembly" of said gearbox. The ensuing fire took a while to put out. She was setting off on a round-the-world trip, Global 86. She eventually did the second half of the trip which, of course, simply had to be referred to as Global 43. There was only 1 casualty thank goodness but it needed more than a lick of paint to repair the damage. In all, very fortunate and a great credit to the crew for dealing with the major event + those getting her ready for the rest of that trip.

I don’t know if it’s related to the fire on Illustrious, but those gearboxes’ inspection hatches are padlocked shut these days, and they’re very seldom opened, to prevent careless FOD. It’s a massive job to replace one of those, and as you’ve related dangerous if there’s anything amiss inside.

if you ever get the chance to get into the engine room in a naval vessel running at full chat, it’s well worth it; it’s an impressive experience seeing, hearing all that power being generated.

[Imagegear]

During my short time on the old (Old) Ark Royal I had many opportunities to visit Boiler Flats (8), Turbine Flats (4) gearbox rooms (4), and ancillary equipment areas. All brass piping polished to a mirror, Stokers and engineers in crisp white boiler suits, Very, very impressive and relatively quiet even when running at full chat. Another interesting, and occasionally dangerous place was the catapult equipment area. Huge pieces of metal and long lengths of cable under tension moving at high speed. My favourite "spotting" place was the Flag Deck to which I had almost direct access from my workspace. Oh the joys of youth, new ports and experiences..

IG

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Before we get too cocky, wasn't Victorious so damaged by a dockyard fire that her refit was abandoned, and I seem to recall another of the Grey Funnel Line's carriers was similarly disabled (Centaur or Bulwark?) in almost identical circumstances. Happy to be corrected.

[Duchess_Driver]

Bulwark had one fire off Norway 79/80 IIRC, not long out of refit.

Just checked, another fire alongside in Philadelphia early ‘79 took a boiler out. Then the Norway incident.

[Union Jack]

Before we get too cocky, wasn't Victorious so damaged by a dockyard fire that her refit was abandoned, and I seem to recall another of the Grey Funnel Line's carriers was similarly disabled (Centaur or Bulwark?) in almost identical circumstances. Happy to be corrected.

She did indeed, as chronicled here https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1967/nov/16/hms-victorious-fire but in reality, despite the sad loss of life of one senior rating, the 1967 fire was actually quickly confined to an accommodation space and did not create any major damage. However, the Labour government of the day used the fire as a rather feeble excuse to bring a fine old lady's life to a premature end in 1968, and she was subsequently broken up at Faslane.

Jack

[Hot 'n' High]

Before we get too cocky, wasn't Victorious so damaged by a dockyard fire that her refit was abandoned, and I seem to recall another of the Grey Funnel Line's carriers was similarly disabled (Centaur or Bulwark?) in almost identical circumstances.

To be fair, we are talking old tech back in those days which was probably much more prone to fire.....

........ things have clearly improved a lot/moved on, certainly in the RN .......................

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/10/hms-queen-elizabeth-suffers-salt-water-leak-forces-return-port/

Hat, coat, liferaft anyone? :} H 'n' H

[Asturias56]

The Kutznetsov will be nearly 40 by the time they get her out - if they ever do - you really have to think it#s a waste of money - they could make an offer for the PoW instead............ hat, coat, TAXI!

[Fonsini]

There is a degree of false equivalence here - while HM armed forces have certainly had their share of dockyard accidents and fires, the Russian safety record is of a different order of magnitude, especially their nuclear safety record for submarines when compared to that of the RN or USN.

Anyone remember the submarine reactor that was minutes away from a meltdown because the naval base hadn’t paid their electric bill and had the supply cut off disabling the reactor’s coolant system ? That was only resolved when the base commander sent an armed detachment of soldiers to politely ask if they would turn the power back on. Imagine that happening in Rosyth.

There still seems to be this mindset that the Russians are really “just like us” - when in fact they are nothing like us.

[Hot 'n' High]

There is a degree of false equivalence here - while HM armed forces have ................ There still seems to be this mindset that the Russians are really “just like us” - when in fact they are nothing like us.

Joking aside ... absolutely Fonsini - and not just in the Armed Forces. The whole ethos goes right back to the situation found in the latter stages of Imperial Russia through into the post-Revolutionary Leninist, and particularly, Stalinist eras which shaped socio-industrial priorities in the then Soviet Union. Even today, one only has to look at Putins background and his current military build-up to see that, within the somewhat limiting economic constraints still faced, similar prioritisation still seems to be an important factor to achieve the end goal, whatever that happens to be.

As we have seen so clearly demonstrated in so many areas of the world which have rapidly changed/been changed, in very many cases the underlying ethoses are harder to shake off or reposition, the change being more of a rapidly applied veneer over a fundamental, deeply-rooted and slow-changing core. And sometimes the glue fixing the veneer in place is patchy at best. Well, that’s how I see it as a simple soul based on my take of the many changes I’ve seen in 6 decades.

I could also go on about the Origins of the Universe and other such topics but I suspect H 'n' H has bored you all enough... :}

[etudiant]

The Kutznetsov will be nearly 40 by the time they get her out - if they ever do - you really have to think it#s a waste of money - they could make an offer for the PoW instead............ hat, coat, TAXI!

IIrc, Russia tried that approach with the Mistrals from France and it failed.
Perhaps if Labor had won the election, they might have put in a bid....

[The AvgasDinosaur]

IIrc, Russia tried that approach with the Mistrals from France and it failed.
Perhaps if Labor had won the election, they might have put in a bid....
No bid required Komrade Korbyn would have made a ‘fraternal brotherhood’ offer of support to his comrades and fellow travellers!
I.M.H.O.
David

[peter we]

No bid required Komrade Korbyn would have made a ‘fraternal brotherhood’ offer of support to his comrades and fellow travellers!
I.M.H.O.
David
And now we have Mad Dom who wants to get rid of it.

[HAS59]

Could we please stop referring to Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov as 'she'.
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...
Корабль, (= ship) is used for large naval ships, cruiser, frigate, cutter, sloop and is masculine;
Лодка (= boat), schooner, yacht, barge and submarine are feminine;
судно, (= vessel) may be used for any type of vessel; and is neuter.

Please stop calling him 'she'.
.-.

[meleagertoo]

Could we please stop referring to Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov as 'she'.
Russian/Soviet major surface ships are not called by 'she' but by 'he' or, more often simply 'it'.
I know it is a commonly held view that all ships are 'female' well not in Russia they're not.
It is a little complicated ...


Complicated! It's not complicated, it's bloody simple!

What a pointless and silly post!

It matters not a jot what Russians call their vessels in Russian.

In English a ship is a "she" no matter what her nationality.
And a submarine is a boat and therefore "it".

FYI we are discussing this topic in English and so use English terminology, not Russian. Is that simple enough?

Strewth!

[etudiant]

No bid required Komrade Korbyn would have made a ‘fraternal brotherhood’ offer of support to his comrades and fellow travellers!
I.M.H.O.
David
Corbyn should have a new career in the media, as the man people love to hate.
Yet he performed pretty well as leader. He kept Labor together under very difficult circumstances and if he led it to defeat, it was because he refused to embrace Brexit, believing strongly that the country needed a better solution.-
I believe that his successor will reap the rewards of Corbyn's prudence, especially if Johnson's Brexit initiative proves to be the current day analog of Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' delusion.
.

[HAS59]

meleagertoo (https://www.pprune.org/members/476551-meleagertoo) old chap, the point about the ship being called by the correct prefix was simply informative.
You may chose to continue to use the wrong prefix if you like, it is both disrespectful and inaccurate.
It matters not a jot what you think of what the Russians chose to call their ships.
The fact remains that Fleet Admiral Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov was a man.
Their major ships have masculine titles.
The ship is not a 'she' just because we are discussing it in the English language.

[Asturias56]

HAS59 - in the English Language ships are SHE - in Russian they are HE

Note the two British carriers - Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales - both "She"

It may be irritating but it's not disrespectful

We don't use the exact names of cities in a similar way - Milano becomes Milan etc

[HAS59]

Asturias56, hello/Ciao

It doesn’t matter which language you are using; it does not alter the simple fact that the ‘carrier should not be referred to as ‘she’ if one want's to be accurate.

Keep on getting it wrong if you like, it’s up to you.
If you can’t bring yourself to get it right, then simply use the word ‘it’, which is also correct.

In the ‘English language’ ships/aircraft/other vehicles etc are indeed often called ‘she’ but language is a constantly evolving entity.
Your Milan/Milano line does not apply as it is the gender of the prefix which is under discussion, not the language used to describe it.

I have spent my entire working life passing on facts for others to use – or not.
I know that I am an irritating pedantic old bloke at times, it is simply my intention to inform.
What you do with the facts is entirely up to you.

For what it’s worth,
I watched the ‘carrier grow from a keel-block to a fully complete operational ship.
I have followed it’s time in service with interest and look forward to seeing the ship back at sea.

[Just This Once...]

Meanwhile Lloyd's stopped the use of 'anachronistic gender terms' for all ships a couple of decades ago. Admittedly Lloyd's did use them for over 250 years, but times change.

Last dance on the head of this pin?

[Video Mixdown]

I have followed it’s time in service with interest and look forward to seeing the ship back at sea.

I wonder if the people who have to sail on it are quite so enthusiastic.

[jolihokistix]

The DPRK could make an offer on it and try to leapfrog the Chinese...

[meleagertoo]

The fact remains that Fleet Admiral Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov was a man.

The ship is not a 'she' just because we are discussing it in the English language.

Seldom has anyone on this forum allowed themselves to dig such an indefensible hole out of such blind yet dazzlingly incorrect pedantry.

Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language. If it did by your very own logic the HMS Queen Elizabeth must be a 'she' and the otherwise identical P o W would be a 'he'. What would HMS Ashanti be? ..."They"...? Idiotic beyond belief! Petard, hoist. QED

Once again, utterly incorrect on the language front. If discussing a ship in English she can only be referred to (correctly) as 'she'. What term another languages uses is irrelevant unless you are speaking that language when of course you use the linguistically correct terminology. Are you going to demand we use the grammar and phraseology of the country we are referring to as well? In English? Does this topsy-turvy world of yours work in reverse? By your rules how could a French speaker refer correctly to a UK submarine as there are only two genders available? There is no French word corresponding to 'it', neither can a genderless word exist as a concept in French. Congratulations! You've just reinvented the incomprehensible biblical babble of Babel.

Come down off your high horse. You are clearly completely out of your depth (no pun intended) both linguistically and rationally.
In correct English ships are 'she' and boats are 'it'. The fact that Lloyds sees this as an anachronism is irrelevant too. If lloyds feel their expertise extends to modifying usage in English I'd suggest they reciprocate by allowing the OED to dictate policy at top levels of insurance.

[langleybaston]

Clearly missed the Politeness Course though.

[Asturias56]

The DPRK could make an offer on it and try to leapfrog the Chinese...


Brazil need a new carrier as do the Argentinians and may be the Japanese would be interested in a Super Duper, Royal class Destroyer

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Corbyn should have a new career in the media, as the man people love to hate.
Yet he performed pretty well as leader. He kept Labor [sic] together under very difficult circumstances
.

I think both Tom Watson and the Change UK defectors might disagree quite strongly, not to mention other Jewish Labour MPs! Corbyn failed not just because of Brexit, but because on his watch Labour turned into essentially a mob of haters. The result was that Labour out-nastied the Tories and all their odious characters like Rees-Mogg. Corbyn's dithering over Brexit to many people might have been forgivable, but his absolute lack of leadership (other than to unite the majority of people behind Boris Johnson, of all people!) was too much for many people, even staunch Labour supporters, to bear.

[HAS59]

...Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language...

Oh meleagertoo, you do seem to be such an excitable chap.

Facts are what they are old bean, but try to read my words and not misunderstand what has been written. It’s not about the language used to describe he/she/it - он/она/Это, it is simply about the gender of the prefix of Russian ships.
The fact I stated, that this Russian ‘carrier is named after a Russian Admiral was to illustrate that this Russian ship has a masculine prefix, in Russian.

You are of course right to state that HMS Queen Elizabeth (and Ashanti, Zulu etc) are of course ‘She’ as they are British. Due to the former dominance of the Royal Navy, most other navies have probably followed suit.
This does not alter the fact that a Russian Major warship is still not referred to as she, by the Russians, and I would suggest by the rest of us who are concerned with accuracy, and a measure of respect. (You’ve heard of respect?)

Feel free to call all the ships of the world ‘she’ if it makes you happy … it still doesn’t make it correct, unless you assume that the English language has dominance over all the others.
Do you imagine the Russians would call their ships by different genders at random, or do you think that there may be an element of tradition and pride? Ought not that tradition count for something?

I am not making any ‘demands’ that you use any phrase or terminology which pleases you, I’m just pointing out the facts. I know it’s irritating but there it is nevertheless.
Thank you for your thoughts on the linguistic complications of gender in other languages all of which was pointless, but diverting all the same.

My High Horse is not out of it’s depth by the way, but it knows from which orifice it is speaking.

Amid the petty squabbling we ought to remember the two dead and fourteen others injured in the fire and with our condolences send our best wishes for a full and speedy recovery of the survivors.
The ship is old and Russian shipyard safety standards are often questionable. I hope that once the investigation into the fire has determined the cause, that work continues at a safer level.
It is good to know that, if the vessel deploys again that we will have our own operational MPA to cover its journey.

[Union Jack]

Seldom has anyone on this forum allowed themselves to dig such an indefensible hole out of such blind yet dazzlingly incorrect pedantry.

Fella, the sex of the person a ship is named after has even less to do with it than language. If it did by your very own logic the HMS Queen Elizabeth must be a 'she' and the otherwise identical P o W would be a 'he'. What would HMS Ashanti be? ..."They"...? Idiotic beyond belief! Petard, hoist. QED

You rang? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Petard_(G56) is well worth a read in view of *her* very distinctive achievements.

Although I'm really quite surprised that HAS59 is making such heavy weather of such a time- honoured tradition, he has made an old salt smile which, with the utmost respect, is a good thing. Let our Russian friends refer to their, or anyone else's, ships any in way they like in Russian, or any other language for that matter, and just let sensible British users of the English language carry on doing what they have been doing since time immemorial.

Jack

[HAS59]

''... All I said was ''that piece of Halibut was good enough for Jehovah...''
Best wishes Jack.

[Union Jack]

''... All I said was ''that piece of Halibut was good enough for Jehovah...''
Best wishes Jack.

"Blasphemy! He said it again!"👍🏻😁

Jack

[kkbuk]

During my short time on the old (Old) Ark Royal I had many opportunities to visit Boiler Flats (8), Turbine Flats (4) gearbox rooms (4), and ancillary equipment areas. All brass piping polished to a mirror, Stokers and engineers in crisp white boiler suits, Very, very impressive and relatively quiet even when running at full chat. Another interesting, and occasionally dangerous place was the catapult equipment area. Huge pieces of metal and long lengths of cable under tension moving at high speed. My favourite "spotting" place was the Flag Deck to which I had almost direct access from my workspace. Oh the joys of youth, new ports and experiences..

IG

Stokers in white boiler suits? Not in the Royal Navy! White boiler suits were for the unemployed, i.e Engineer Officers and Warrant Officers. Lesser beings such as Stokers wore blue overalls known as 'ovies'!

[kkbuk]

Before we get too cocky, wasn't Victorious so damaged by a dockyard fire that her refit was abandoned, and I seem to recall another of the Grey Funnel Line's carriers was similarly disabled (Centaur or Bulwark?) in almost identical circumstances. Happy to be corrected.

A small 'convenient' fire allowed the Carrier-hating Prime Minister to cancel the refit and pay off the vessel.

[Lilaccruiser]

So, hmm, who’s in the market for a 65,000 ton carrier without cats and traps, with no decent missile defence capability fitted, no ability to launch long endurance AEW aircraft, wholly dependent on a range and weapons load challenged V/STOL air platform whose mission critical software is controlled by a foreign power? It’s a small market perhaps.

[langleybaston]

Two carriers.
Do keep up.

[Asturias56]

The Japanese are going to buy VTOL F-35's for their destroyers - the PoW would fit their navy nicely

[jolihokistix]

Is the PoW strictly defensive? You know, with the Constitution and all.

Could it be painted to look smaller, like a humble helicopter carrier and submarine destroyer?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Two carriers.
Do keep up.

But we're not trying to sell both of them - are we?

[Video Mixdown]

But we're not trying to sell both of them - are we?

Neither of them are for sale. That's just the usual suspects on here in their echo chamber.

[Asturias56]

"Neither of them are for sale" - true but there are already voices (eg Bro Hastings) saying sell them..................... that's not just the usual suspects on here I'm afraid

[Video Mixdown]

Ahhh - the esteemed and always believable press again! Anyway, I thought this thread was about the fire-damaged floating slum with the crane-shaped hole in its deck.

[Imagegear]

Stokers in white boiler suits? Not in the Royal Navy! White boiler suits were for the unemployed, i.e Engineer Officers and Warrant Officers. Lesser beings such as Stokers wore blue overalls known as 'ovies'!

You are absolutely right of course, since I was generally unemployed and accompanied by the unemployed, I did not encounter many blue overalls on my travels. :ok:

IG

[Lilaccruiser]

Two carriers.
Do keep up.

Loving the ambition! Flogging one of them would be hard enough.

[fdr]

Vessels being feminine is an English characteristic, Russia always refers to vessels in the masculine.

[Asturias56]

We've had this argument on other threads (AT LENGTH) and the vast majority say if you're writing in English you adopt English usage and if you are writing in Russian you adopt Russian usage.

You should however be aware of what the other options are

[ORAC]

https://tass.com/defense/1154431

Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier planned for sea trials in fall 2022

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1559249670748127232?s=21&t=81C5HKKv38AI7IQQHeLGqg


United Shipbuilding Corporation's Alexey Rakhmanov said the Admiral Kuznetsov is scheduled to be returned to the Russian Navy in 2024 and it will serve for at least 25 years, which seems highly unlikely.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=579318&lang=RU

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/alexkokcharov/status/1612461400693313536?s=61&t=hbcAmDSjtTWRgb91pOnFrw


​​​​​​​In #Russia, the only Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is reportedly in critical condition making it not seaworthy.

Metal structures below the third deck suffered significant corrosion. The holds are completely filled with muddy water.…..

[Winemaker]

Well, back in the day, I called my 24' Santana sloop, it was a boat, by her name, 'Eos' and she had no problem with it.

[SASless]

Note the two British carriers - Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales - both "She"


In this day and time in the sense of equity and one's choice of identification....should it not be the "Princess of Wales" if she is the preferred pronoun?

[NutLoose]

In this day and time in the sense of equity and one's choice of identification....should it not be the "Princess of Wales" if she is the preferred pronoun?

Arc Royal would sound better ;)

[Ascend Charlie]

Oh, how ship-ist of you Sassy! If a boat wants to self-identify as an aircraft carrier, then you must not offend him/her/it/them/they/whatever.

[megan]

Aviators used to refer to their ride in the feminine, do they now call it an "it"?The Royal Navy has always gloried in its traditions, none more so than the tradition of naming ships. A ship’s name, motto and badge serve as a great source of pride for its crew and a historic pride in the tradition of ships’ forebears. Names such as Ark Royal, Queen Elizabeth, or Invincible have often been repeated in British naval vessels since the days of the age of sail.Today ships of the Royal Navy are usually named either in terms of royalty such as Prince of Wales, or Royal Sovereign or with martial terms such as Astute, Daring or Defiant. Medium ships such as cruisers have also been traditionally named after British cities such as Glasgow, Cardiff or Belfast. British tradition differs somewhat from other major navies, such as the US, French or Russian which often name major warships after named historic figures.

Another tradition is to consider ships as female, referring to them as ‘she’. Although it may sound strange referring to an inanimate object as ‘she’, this tradition relates to the idea of a female figure such as a mother or goddess guiding and protecting a ship and crew. Another idea is that in many languages, objects are referred to using feminine or masculine nouns. This is less common in English which tends to use gender-neutral nouns, however referring to ships as ‘she’ may refer to far more ancient traditions.

Interestingly, Captain Ernst Lindemann of the German battleship Bismarck referred to his ship as ‘he’, in view of its awesome power. In popular parlance, the tradition of naming ships ‘she’ has now become less common. It's worth noting that the shipping industry newspaper, Lloyd's Register of Shipping, now calls ships ‘it’.https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender

[GlobalNav]

Aviators used to refer to their ride in the feminine, do they now call it an "it"?https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender

Well, in this new “non-binary” world, who can guess what pronoun will be next?

[West Coast]

Aviators used to refer to their ride in the feminine, do they now call it an "it"?https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender

Admiral Kuznetsov
They/them/theirs

That should satisfy the woke mob unless of course they identifies masculine. I live in California, we’re required to know these things.

[jolihokistix]

So, regarding Admiral Kuznetsov, she is a they, not an it?

(In reply to West Coast above.)

[flyingorthopod]

So, regarding Admiral Kuznetsov, she is a they, not an it?

Warships I believe generally masculine in Russian especially.if named after a bloke. Yachts are feminine and tugboats neuter.

[Hilife]

In noting this, could one presume that 'No Nuts' is up for consideration for the next tugboat build?

[Not_a_boffin]

So, regarding Admiral Kuznetsov, she is a they, not an it?

(In reply to West Coast above.)
I think you'll find Kuznetsov is a partial combination of "she" and "it".........

[SASless]

With a tip of the hat to the "That is no Lady...that is. my Wife!".....who called them Aircraft Carriers?

[fitliker]

One of the longest words in the Southern Eubonics Lexicon is “Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiittaaaaaa “
and the shortest “ mofo “
Maybe they should convert it into a floating casino and sell it to the Macau casino operators . After a new coat of paint it could join the Liaoning off the coast of Guam .

[Asturias56]

I think you'll find Kuznetsov is a partial combination of "she" and "it".........


See posts of 20th January 2020

"Vessels being feminine is an English characteristic, Russia always refers to vessels in the masculine."

"We've had this argument on other threads (AT LENGTH) and the vast majority say if you're writing in English you adopt English usage and if you are writing in Russian you adopt Russian usage. You should however be aware of what the other options are"

[Video Mixdown]

See posts of 20th January 2020
"Vessels being feminine is an English characteristic, Russia always refers to vessels in the masculine."
"We've had this argument on other threads (AT LENGTH) and the vast majority say if you're writing in English you adopt English usage and if you are writing in Russian you adopt Russian usage. You should however be aware of what the other options are"
Wrong as usual. There are no other options. N_a_b is stating a fact.

[Not_a_boffin]

See posts of 20th January 2020

"Vessels being feminine is an English characteristic, Russia always refers to vessels in the masculine."

"We've had this argument on other threads (AT LENGTH) and the vast majority say if you're writing in English you adopt English usage and if you are writing in Russian you adopt Russian usage. You should however be aware of what the other options are"

One should always take a moment to read the post properly and check whether someone is making a joke...........

[Video Mixdown]

One should always take a moment to read the post properly and check whether someone is making a joke...........
It was a good one. A56 is still lumbering on after the uptake.

[Asturias56]

TBH I did see the joke - I was just moaning about repeating what we've already discussed.................

[flyingorthopod]

If they spent more time pondering the art of war than arguing about what pronouns their ships use they might be more effective

[Marcantilan]

https://www.stylemanual.gov.au/grammar-punctuation-and-conventions/names-and-terms/ships-aircraft-and-other-vehicles#refer_to_vehicles_with_the_pronoun_it

Modern style manuals (above is one) uses "it" for ships.

[Video Mixdown]

I suspect the correct description of this particular ship is now scrap metal, whatever gender that is in Russian.

[langleybaston]

In English, a bell [as in Church] is traditionally "she", except if named after a male saint or martyr.
One can get away with "it" these ignorant days.
When ringing Rounds is about to start, the treble ringer shouts
"Look to!
"Treble's going!".
"She's gone!" [Followed by a series of clangs, ad infinitum]

Which raises the question of Kutznetzof's ship's bell ............
Probably stolen for scrap however.

[West Coast]

So, regarding Admiral Kuznetsov, she is a they, not an it?

(In reply to West Coast above.)

Precisely!

[Lonewolf_50]

Which raises the question of Kutznetzof's ship's bell ............
Probably stolen for scrap however. Perhaps stolen by some bell end ... :p

[jolihokistix]

A cute non-binary nickname for this ship could be 'Rusty'.

[steamchicken]

Aviators used to refer to their ride in the feminine, do they now call it an "it"?https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender

Schiff is a neuter noun in German. But if yours is named after a place or person, usually she...although otherwise you keep the gender that would apply to the name. I guess calling Bismarck she (traditionally correct) or it (grammatically correct) just seemed weird.

[Less Hair]

Ship's names and type designations are feminine in german as a general rule. If you had a ship named "penis" it would be feminine.

[langleybaston]

Die Schwanz?

[Ninthace]

Ship's names and type designations are feminine in german as a general rule. If you had a ship named "penis" it would be feminine.
Are really small ships neuter then?

[India Four Two]

I don't know about small ships but I've always found it amusing that Mädchen (girl) is neuter!

[langleybaston]

I don't know about small ships but I've always found it amusing that Mädchen (girl) is neuter!

Quite so.
In my youth I found the fact counter-intuitive. The local Girls' Grammar School in particular. Oh! those white ankle socks ...................

[ve3id]

Quite so.
In my youth I found the fact counter-intuitive. The local Girls' Grammar School in particular. Oh! those wjite ankle socks ...................

Gender of nouns has nothing to do with the sex of the people represented. If that were so, the entire French Police force would be feminine! (La Police)

[Less Hair]

Fun fact: masculinity in german language is feminine: Die Männlichkeit.

[langleybaston]

I knew those German and French O Levels would find a use one day.

[SpazSinbad]

Twitter URLs don't work here it seems so this is text only. "Not sure what to think about this one First Deputy Chairman of the State Duma Committee on the Far East and the Arctic (LDPR) Sergey Karginov proposed to buy back an ex. Kuznetsov-class carrier "Liaoning" (CV-16) from China & rename it "Vladimir Zhirinovsky".

[Asturias56]

They might be willing to sell it back - and perhaps offer a deal on a new build as well.

Maybe the RN would accept an offer for the PoW ;)

[nonsense]

Fun fact: masculinity in german language is feminine: Die Männlichkeit.

Likewise, in Quebec French, but not in European French, testicles are feminine:

Lexical item * Quebec French meaning * Metropolitan French meaning
gosse * gosses (fem pl): balls (testicles) * gosse (masc sg): child/kid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French#Distinctive_features

[langleybaston]

Every day's a school day.

Of course testes are gonads, and "gonads" also applies to the female equivalent, so I suppose nackers are rather AC/DC in origin.

Come to PPRUNE for an education.

[ExAscoteer2]

Of course testes are gonads, and "gonads" also applies to the female equivalent,


There is no "female equivalent", both Testes and Ovaries develop from the same precursor tissueand are both gonads.

Gonad merely means an organ that produces Gametes, ie Haploid cells that when fuse (at fertilisation) produce a Zygote.

[langleybaston]

There is no "female equivalent", both Testes and Ovaries develop from the same precursor tissueand are both gonads.

Gonad merely means an organ that produces Gametes, ie Haploid cells that when fuse (at fertilisation) produce a Zygote.

I tried to keep it simple for you.

[bugged on the right]

Is there any news about the Admiral Kuznetzov or are we going to discuss what sex a ship is in various societies? For goodness sake.

[West Coast]

Is there any news about the Admiral Kuznetzov or are we going to discuss what sex a ship is in various societies? For goodness sake.

Do you have any new information on her status?

[bugged on the right]

No West Coast but every time I see there's a new post it turns out to be irrelevant trivia.

[ExAscoteer2]

I tried to keep it simple for you.

No you didn't. You just repeated ignorant, biased, male, rubbish.

[rigpiggy]

I call my old car "her/she as it is easier to forgive a lady you love for her frailties foibles, and eccentricities

[jolihokistix]

Maybe instead of an old Ukrainian/Chinese hand-me-down (Liaoning), Russia could order one of those two new super carriers China is building.

[Asturias56]

Nothing to stop the Chinese going into the export business - the Russians can pay with oil as well. And it would be attractive to build extra copies - drives down the overall unit cost

[MJ89]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY9NVvKrlMQ

"nicotine fit" :D

[steamchicken]

Fun fact: masculinity in german language is feminine: Die Männlichkeit.

You won't need this but for everyone else: the rule to remember is that qualities are nearly always feminine. Anything that ends schaft, heit, keit, tät etc.

[jolihokistix]

She he it’s moved! All good below the waterline.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-disaster-plagued-aircraft-carrier-finally-left-its-drydock

[Asturias56]

Space now available for any British Carrier that needs work......................

[NutLoose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY9NVvKrlMQ

"nicotine fit" :D


You think that's bad, you should see it when the Captain orders them to make smoke.

[NutLoose]

She he it’s moved! All good below the waterline.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-disaster-plagued-aircraft-carrier-finally-left-its-drydock

Pollution what's that? is that fuel oil all over the surface of the harbour facility?

[jolihokistix]

NutLoose, sssshhhh........, the walls have ears.

[Not_a_boffin]

NutLoose, sssshhhh........, the walls have ears.

I though Walls had profiteroles.....

[pasta]

I though Walls had profiteroles.....
I think they were referring to the Walls sausages.

[fdr]

Pollution what's that? is that fuel oil all over the surface of the harbour facility?

Nuke, diesel, Meh, if it ain't still leaking, it's time to refuel it....

Ядерное оружие, дизель, Мех, если он все еще не течет, пора его заправить

[Asturias56]

"Pollution what's that? is that fuel oil all over the surface of the harbour facility?"

What? In Murmansk??? Fuel oil is the least of your worries - even the locals won't go up near the naval base - "glows in the dark" we were warned on a visit...............

[ORAC]

Biggest problem recruiting a crew will be any volunteers know they’ll probably be shipped straight to the front in Ukraine as infantry instead…

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-accident-prone-aircraft-carrier-has-now-crew

Russia’s Accident-Prone Aircraft Carrier Has No Crew

Russia’s only aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov, currently doesn't have a crew. This adds another hurdle to getting the ship, which finally departed its drydock (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-disaster-plagued-aircraft-carrier-finally-left-its-drydock) at the Sevmorput Naval Shipyard in Russia’s northwestern Murmansk region in February, into any kind of real service. Since 2017, Admiral Kuznetsov has been undergoing a labored overhaul effort, during which time it has suffered multiple fires (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-unfortunate-aircraft-carrier-has-caught-fire-again) and a drydock sinking (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24760/russia-admits-it-doesnt-have-any-dry-docks-that-can-fit-its-lone-carrier-after-accident).

The Russian newspaper Izvestia first reported on April 10 (https://iz.ru/1495800/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/podniat-flagman-dlia-avianostca-admiral-kuznetcov-nabiraiut-novyi-ekipazh) that Admiral Kuznetsov’s crew is in the process of being reformed. According to a machine translation of the article, anonymous sources within the Russian Defense Ministry confirmed to the newspaper that preparations for the formation of Admiral Kuznetsov’s new crew have begun, although when exactly this started remains unclear. It’s also uncertain when this process will be finalized, owing to the significant challenges of finding and training the personnel needed to man the vessel…..

[Asturias56]

they could hire the crew of the Prince of Wales to get things started.................

[langleybaston]

they could hire the crew of the Prince of Wales to get things started.................

Surely the erstwhile crew of P o W have been dispersed to other ships? After all, it is not going anywhere fast, is it?

[Thrust Augmentation]

Surely the erstwhile crew of P o W have been dispersed to other ships? After all, it is not going anywhere fast, is it?

Last I've seen was Portsmouth by spring, further work & back to ops autumn, but I think these dates were suggested before preemptive repairs on the other shaft were announced.....

[jolihokistix]

Russia could ask the Chinese for crew.

[Asturias56]

not a bad idea - a sort of AUKUS arrangement?