Opinion on Gieves

[Godwinson324]

I am doing some research on Gieves and I realise that Gieves used to be a prominent RAF tailor! I wish to earn more and gain insight on Gieves from the veteran legends of this PPRUNE forum's military aviation section. I am currently a student in the RAF cadet force and I have a lot of historical interest in the clothing aspects of the RAF. I would love to hear why you chose Gieves, who were the main outfitters, how much it cost to afford the kit? or any other interesting stories to go along with it.

Thanks a lot and I look forward to hearing from you!

[Fareastdriver]

In 1960 at No1 ITS South Cerney an officer cadet was issues with £10.0s.0d. With this he would have to buy an SD cap, shoes and a pair of brown leather gloves. His No1 uniform was issued by stores and corrected for fit by a resident tailor.

On my course there was a bunch of University graduates whom had already received the initial No1 at their University Air Squadron so they could pay for another one. Some of them did and some had red linings put in them (strictly unofficial), that set them back around £22 10s. 0d..

There were two main RAF tailors. Gieves and R E City. Both supplied hats made to Air Ministry specification but they were crap compared with Bates, who made a hat with a heavy crown that with encouragement could be persuaded to touch ones ears Luftwaffe style. Their shoes weren't a patch on Poulsen shoes so the ideal trio was a Bates hat, Poulsen shoes and Gieves gloves. That would set you back £12 or so.

I have been reminded to include Moss Bros, Alkit maybe.

I bought my next No1 when I was older and fatter after a tour in Singapore so it was made there just before I left. Having a natural ability to dodge parades and suchlike that lasted until I left the service ten years later.

[Top West 50]

Were not Alkit and Moss Bros on the scene at South Cerney then? The best bit of tailoring I encountered was my No 6 by Au Wai Lam at Kai Tak.

[Timelord]

All I know is that they were very smart and well tailored but way too expensive for most of us. We got our uniforms from Moss Bros or Alkits. Only senior officers or those with private means could afford Gieves prices. The same went for hats from Bates. Other than No 1 Saville Row they didn’t have “shops”, a gentleman tailor would visit you by appointment in the Mess.

Good luck with your project.
TL

[BEagle]

Gieves and Hawkes? Otherwise (rather cruelly) known as 'Thieves and Sharks'. We were 'encouraged' to open an account with them as Flight Cadets and I did so until I found better ways of spending my salary.

Bates SD cap, Poulsen and Scone shoes, RE City No.1 SD were fine for me. Plus the 'off the peg' no.5 jacket I bought from Moss Bros in 1972 and a secondhand 1981 RE City blue waistcoat (after those awful pale blue cummerbunds were binned) lasted unti 2003! I never did bother to buy any mess kit trousers as the No.1s were 'high cut' - a top tip from a chap who knew such things.

There was a little military tailor's shop near the Junior Mess at RAFC - was it Gieves or RE City? They sewed on my Wings after the graduation parade in 1974 - back in the days when the RAF did things properly.

[Godwinson324]

This is all very interesting. So Gieves was too overpriced? If so, how was the quality compared to Bates?

[Pom Pax]

I can not remember from whom I bought what except a couple of pairs of black nylon socks from Moss Bros. Memorable because they were indestructible.
Herbie Johnson's S.D. Caps were top of the pops then (1957). did they bend easier than Bates'?

[Tankertrashnav]

Funny, I don't remember Gieves being any more expensive than City, Alkit, etc, and my recollection is that Moss Bros were a bit dearer than most. My first hat was a Gieves, and it wasn't a patch on the Bates one I bought later. I also had Poulson and Skone shoes as mentioned by Fareastdriver - haven't heard that name in years.

We had a chap on my OCTU course who had a Burtons No 1. Of course all we brand new would-be officers were very snobby about this and looked down our noses at him. He didn't care, before joining the RAF he had worked for Burtons where he was learning the trade. He said they had a contract with Moss Bros whereby Burtons cut out the uniforms ready for stitching and Moss Bros finished them off and sewed in their labels so the only real difference was that the Moss Bros uniforms were about double the price of Burtons.

[Godwinson324]

Funny, I don't remember Gieves being any more expensive than City, Alkit, etc, and my recollection is that Moss Bros were a bit dearer than most. My first hat was a Gieves, and it wasn't a patch on the Bates one I bought later. I also had Poulson and Skone shoes as mentioned by Fareastdriver - haven't heard that name in years.

We had a chap on my OCTU course who had a Burtons No 1. Of course all we brand new would-be officers were very snobby about this and looked down our noses at him. He didn't care, before joining the RAF he had worked for Burtons where he was learning the trade. He said they had a contract with Moss Bros whereby Burtons cut out the uniforms ready for stitching and Moss Bros finished them off and sewed in their labels so the only real difference was that the Moss Bros uniforms were about double the price of Burtons.

Thanks for the input! What would you say were the main differences in between your Gieves or Bates SD Cap?

P.S. Do you still have your Gieves hat?

[John Eacott]

P.S. Do you still have your Gieves hat?

Of course: but the Senior Service looks after their kit :p ;)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/yts6mwlktbgm_8o9_j0fw_e47520346ecffb40800ff737dcb3e6518d81b2 53.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/gieves_cap_e495792e5c0d3e67a3cc25ed4da039c39c99f532.jpg


The Gieves kit was very popular in the RN back in the 60s and 70s, Mess kit and caps especially. Mine was a replacement in 1972 after the original was nicked during IntSAR at Lee, most awkward to have no cap the next morning until I was able to get into town and purchase this one!

I even have my Gieves account card, there should be a couple of quid in there gaining interest :D

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/gieves_account_card_7f19cdad993cebae99eb638c5cfd6692a1b92451 .jpg

[BEagle]

When I joined the RAF, the fashion was to 'bash' one's SD cap to give it something of this look about it:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/298x448/new_picture_3__3f0605fb78b349c261bc6bcf234f7a6bb8764e76.jpg

However, while a Bates SD cap could be suitably bashed, the Gieves version resisted all attempts and retained its rather North Korean General's look.

Of course there were other styles which suited the wearer rather well:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/336x429/new_picture_2__560a6a6325849cc763c6c4508c5eb6192c30633c.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Ah, Section Officer Harvey! Well done Beagle, never far from our thoughts! As to the Junior Mess tailor's shop at Cranwell, it was Thieves. Or it was in '59 at least. Bates for hats, and Samtani's in Nathan Road HK for all tailoring (beat all UK tailors both for cut and price!).

[MPN11]

In 1960 at No1 ITS South Cerney an officer cadet was issues with £10.0s.0d. With this he would have to buy an SD cap, shoes and a pair of brown leather gloves. His No1 uniform was issued by stores and corrected for fit by a resident tailor.
Interesting - No 1 from Stores!! OCTU Feltwell, 1965, one received an Officers Initial Outfitting Allowance of £115 to cover the lot: No 1, SD Hat, Shoes and No 5 jacket. I took the cheaper route via Messrs Alkit, on tick, and spent the money on a better car. I was still paying off the bill several years later!

Back on topic, I never 'Gieved' at all.

[Wensleydale]

...and don't forget Ernie Bedford's in Newark!

[Chris Kebab]

Yes, the "bashed hat" Beagle refers to was definately de riguer for many years - what happened there; a shift in fashion or possibly an edict from the uniform and badge police, can't recall. Not everyone did it but it was always a good early marker for those fine chaps destined for Spec Aircrew:ok:

[spud]

Samtani on Nathan Road is still going strong. I’m picking up some trousers from them tomorrow. It’s many a year since they did uniforms except the odd airline uniform though

[staircase]

This thread reminds me of the comment by one of the ‘Few’, on one of the History Channels, when he was asked how he felt when he heard Churchill’s speech about ‘never owing so much to so few.’

Our hero was reputed to have said that; ‘we all thought that Churchill was talking about how much we all owed to our tailors’.

I wish I could remember which one of them it was.

[Roland Pulfrew]

There were two main RAF tailors. Gieves and R E City. Both supplied hats made to Air Ministry specification but they were crap compared with Bates, who made a hat with a heavy crown that with encouragement could be persuaded to touch ones ears Luftwaffe style. Their shoes weren't a patch on Poulsen shoes so the ideal trio was a Bates hat, Poulsen shoes and Gieves gloves. That would set you back £12 or so.


Does anyone know if Bates still do SD hats? Regrettably my current one is on its last legs and is unlikely to see out my remaining years in the Service, and its certainly not fit for any formal events!

[Ken Scott]

Being obviously much younger than the respondents above I caught the tail end of the uniform allowance when I joined in 1986, it being £300 as I recall to purchase SD hat & No 1s. As a university cadet I had to do a 2 week course at the RAFC to learn how to deport myself (aka masquerade) as an officer during which I went to one of the three tailors in the East Camp, Snaiths, and purchased a uniform that had been tailored for another cadet that had failed to graduate for £100. I also bought a Bates hat for the princely sum of £50. As I recall my pay rate at the time (Acting Pilot Officer) was circa £8 per day. That left me with 150 beer tokens to take back to university, a poor long term investment as it turned out, several years of wearing the No 1s as interim mess kit and numerous games of mess Rugby rendered it unfit for graduation from IOT (I might have got away with it had it not been Her Majesty as Reviewing Officer), ditto the hat which other posters have described as being suitably pliant to make it look 'operational' but too unsightly for her royal eyes. I went down to the Tailors to get a new uniform and hat to graduate in but whilst I was able to find another No 1 belonging to a chopped cadet of similar shape to myself there were no hats, when I reported back I was told that unless I could obtain one I would not be allowed to graduate. I eventually sourced one which was a bit tight but did at least allow me to grad, being back-coursed on account of my hat would have been too painful!

Post-IOT my original hat did me many years of fine service, despite having the lining chewed out by one of my Labradors during flying training, and was eventually replaced in 2012 by one purchased from the tailors in Cranwell whose name I do not recall. This was vastly inferior to my old trusty Bates and was already wearing thin by 2019 with the cardboard showing through the peak and headband, nasty modern rubbish but still better than what is issued by stores these days. With only days to go to retirement my old Bates has been brought out of the cupboard, a millenary version of Bagpuss, battered & stained with the rigidity of a beret, but as long as I can avoid the gaze of the SWO should last me until I walk out of the door for the final time, having been in daily use for most of my 34 years of service - a testament to the quality of uniforms of old.

[ShyTorque]

Life on an SH squadron meant our uniforms had a very hard life. After ten years in that role I transferred back to FW. On my first morning in my new job I received an unexpected “invite” to go and say hello to the Station Commander, pronto! I put on my SD hat and trotted along. The welcome was much as expected but the last thing he said to me was along the lines of: “Next time you come into my office I expect you to be wearing your smartest flying suit and your best hat!

I truthfully replied “These are my best flying suit and hat, sir!”

His answer was: “They might be acceptable on a helicopter station but NOT on mine!! Get yourself over to safety equipment for a new flying suit and buy yourself a new best hat!”

[oxenos]

I had a very well weathered hat (forget the make) which I wore for shooting competitions. (Requirement was to wear junglies and a hat)
Senior Officer turned up at a competition, to present the prizes, accompanied by his wife. She said "love the hat, was it your father's?"

[meleagertoo]

Gieves and Moseley and Pounceford were the offical tailors at Dartmouth early '80s, plus one other I can't recall but their kit was truly shabby compared to the excellent quality of the other two. The attraction was that it was considerably cheaper and left ylu with an appreciable amount of change from the £500 allowance of No5s and mess kit. Cheaper, but still not cheap, Thieves and Moseley's gear awas lovely stuff but extortionately overpriced, a decent tailord suit could be had on the high street for not much over a hundred pounds, so 250 for their suits was way OTT. In addition there was the tmptation to but a Gieves cap, vastly superior to the plastic-covered Pusser's issue. I also splurged the unthinkable amount of £50 on a beautiful pair of Gieves mess boots that I o longer have, replacing tnose today costs well over £500.
I think those tailors did very well indeed out of the uniform grant so generously provided by Pusser. Too well in fact.

[Wander00]

I forget who supplied them, but my new shoes and gloves purchased when I rejoined in 1980 still come on 8 May and 11 November each year (in France VE Day is a public holiday, as is 11 Nov)

[Fareastdriver]

Does anyone know if Bates still do SD hats?

They still make hats and caps but a website search doesn't turn up RAF SD caps. The last time I spoke to them in the 1970s they had stopped making the old style and had kowtowed to Air Ministry and produced conventional ones.

ShyTorque mentions the bashing that SH pilot's hats got. Mine ended up tucked behind me in a Whirlwind for many hours in Borneo. The oil, heat and humidity were too much for it and on my last trip from the interior to Labuan I decided that retirement was the kindest thing to do. It was perched on top of a 200 ft. high tree somewhere about five miles northwest of Sepulot.

[MPN11]

I had a very well weathered hat (forget the make) which I wore for shooting competitions. (Requirement was to wear junglies and a hat)
Senior Officer turned up at a competition, to present the prizes, accompanied by his wife. She said "love the hat, was it your father's?"Going off-topic again ... sorry.

A Bisley person, Sir? Our paths must have crossed.

My 1965 Alkit made it into the 90s [just] although at some point on the 80s I received a forwarded message for a 3/4 Star not to wear it again. It was/is more like a cloth cap than an SD Hat, TBH! I wore it on my last day at work in 1992, as a farewell gesture of the 2-fingered variety.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/422x764/pmg_sr_training_8bbc3186204d1b8c8ed8bbe4f203ddc1d70ef7d6.jpe g

[oxenos]

MPN11 - See your MPs. Belay that, should read PMs

[MPN11]

MPN11 - See your MPs. Belay that, should read PMsDone! And will my UK MP be there tomorrow? Will there still be a ‘Gove’ in Government? :)

[oxenos]

Will we be joining the Warsaw Pact? All seriously off thread.

[MPN11]

Indeed ... back to ‘Thieves’ ;)

[Auxtank]

Pretty much all dad's kit (RN) from the hat down came from Gieves & Hawkes across the road from HMNB Nelson in Pompey.
Once a year they had an insane sale where you could buy a sports jacket for a £1, etc.

Leave the politics out of it - it's a load of bollox and most of us have had quite enough of it - and nothing to do with the OP's original query.

[Godwinson324]

Pretty much all dad's kit (RN) from the hat down came from Gieves & Hawkes across the road from HMNB Nelson in Pompey.
Once a year they had an insane sale where you could buy a sports jacket for a £1, etc.

Leave the politics out of it - it's a load of bollox and most of us have had quite enough of it - and nothing to do with the OP's original query.

I wonder if they still do those 'sale' periods? Are there still any Gieves branches except No.1 Savile Row affiliated to a specific naval base (Like your father's G&H in Portsmouth, I believe they are gone now?)

[MPN11]

Leave the politics out of it - it's a load of bollox and most of us have had quite enough of it - and nothing to do with the OP's original query.
It was a whimsical response to oxenos’ typo. Do please take a chill pill.

[Fareastdriver]

Here is a stores issue No 1, collar detached shirt and a real Bates hat:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x2000/imgp0395_c8ec26eb525a11804525d66139c888dc8df25d57.jpg

[wub]

If you think Gieves is expensive have look at Goldings.co.uk

[Auxtank]

It was a whimsical response to oxenos’ typo. Do please take a chill pill.

If you're offering I'll consider; what do you have - in your no doubt well stocked veritable apothecary's cabinet of soft old age ailment relieving medicines?

[Union Jack]

Gieves and Moseley and Pounceford were the offical tailors at Dartmouth early '80s, plus one other I can't recall but their kit was truly shabby compared to the excellent quality of the other two. The attraction was that it was considerably cheaper and left you with an appreciable amount of change from the £500 allowance of No5s and mess kit. Cheaper, but still not cheap, Thieves and Moseley's gear was lovely stuff but extortionately overpriced, a decent tailored suit could be had on the high street for not much over a hundred pounds, so 250 for their suits was way OTT. In addition there was the temptation to but a Gieves cap, vastly superior to the plastic-covered Pusser's issue. I also splurged the unthinkable amount of £50 on a beautiful pair of Gieves mess boots that I no longer have, replacing those today costs well over £500.

I think those tailors did very well indeed out of the uniform grant so generously provided by Pusser. Too well in fact.

I suspect that the "one other" besides Gives and Moseley and Pounsford was almost certainly C H Bernard of Harwich, which folded in 2007. If you were keen on an appointment to the Yacht, it was preferable to have been a customer of Gieves or M&P. I have an account at Gieves and got some money back by having a healthy discount as a shareholder until I was bought out.

Not advertising of course, but present day branches are reduced to Savile Row, Bath, Chester Liverpool, Birmingham and Winchester.

Jack

[rlsbutler]

I assume that each Towers Entry was the subject of a Dutch auction to determine who supplied what piece of the graduating uniform. For my Entry (79) I only remember the Bates hat (excellent) and the Poulson & Scone shoes. I see others here remembering P & S with respect. The soles of my shoes gave way at the first contact with wet gravel and were soon unusable. As I result I remembered the name (to avoid it) and learned in due time that the brand was sold to another outfitter. I have also made it my practice, even when my various shoes are certain to outlive me, to give my every leather sole a rubber stick-a-sole to take the wear.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the KD racket. My first tour was in Singapore. Newbies like me were easily suckered by one or other of the named tailors (in my case, Moss Bros on Cambridge Circus) to fill our trunks with their aint-half-hot-mum versions of the kit before we left UK. I do not think they tried to sell me a solar topee but it was all quite expensive. The marvellous station tailor at Tengah saved me from wearing any of what I brought from home.

[FantomZorbin]

My hat was banished by the CO (he needn't have shouted …really!) so I kept it and passed it on. My son had several years use of it but was challenged once by an OC Admin who demanded to know where he'd got it, on explaining to said officer he was told "Oh, that's alright then"!

[MPN11]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the KD racket. My first tour was in Singapore. Newbies like me were easily suckered by one or other of the named tailors (in my case, Moss Bros on Cambridge Circus) to fill our trunks with their aint-half-hot-mum versions of the kit before we left UK. I do not think they tried to sell me a solar topee but it was all quite expensive. The marvellous station tailor at Tengah saved me from wearing any of what I brought from home.Seconded ... the Tengah Village tailor was excellent, not only for decent KD but for a range of civil attire. In fact, it looks like I'm wearing one of his shirts in that photo above, some 25 years later!

[Fareastdriver]

Whizzing around the world in Valiant tankers KD was required and I too was suckered into the Singapore tops shorts. These outlasted my helicopter tour in Borneo but a subsequent tour in Singapore the system had changed.

On arrival clothing stores would issue you with a length of lightweight KD material that you took along to your tailors in the local village; Changi in my case. There they would knock you up a full set of shirts, shorts and bushjacket.

Those whom hadn't been told about the system and had bought there KD in the UK just binned it.

[talking horse]

I was at IOT in 1987. As a former University Cadet, I had received an outfitting allowance and had bought my hat (Moss Bros, I think). But the system changed, and the Direct Entrants were issued with hats (and, I think, uniforms) from clothing stores. One windy day, we were marching up and down when the CWO decided that we should were our chinstraps to prevent our hats from being blown off. It transpired that on the hats that were issued by stores the chinstraps were for show only and were non-functional. The result was a very unhappy CWO.

[Geriaviator]

Over on the Brevet thread, our much-missed Senior Poster Danny 42C favoured the Bates cap for the 1958 season when he was posted to ATC Thorney Island, commuting on his Winged Wheel motorised pushbike. Told as only Danny could, his autobiography Danny and the Cold War recalls one sunny morning when all went well until the throttle stuck wide open:Frantic waggling failed to clear it, so the Wheel now had the bit firmly between its teeth, and quickly got up to 25 mph, which was Vne (never exceed speed) … there was no ignition switch, and a downhill stretch lay ahead … eventually I managed to lean back and turn off the fuel, it took ages, my cap fell off (the least of my worries) but thankfully I managed it … I stripped the carb, put all back, test for Full and Free Movement, fuel 'on', fire-up and backtrack for my Cap, S.D. Against all expectation, Mr. Bates's finest was on the roadside half a mile astern, had not been pinched or run-over, and was generally in good nick.

[Mogwi]

Regret that I was never a Geives man - but my aged P was in WW2. Mainly because your bill was written off if you croaked and quite a few of his FAA mates did!

Off to watch the election,

Mog

[Dan Winterland]

My first uniforms were from Moss Bros, which weren't too good and turned out to be a disaster while during Flying training at Cranwell, when was selected to be on the colour party; for which the original No1s were fine. However, for a Royal Review, we had to be especially smart - which I wasn't, having put on a few pounds in the meantime. So I was told to equip myself with a new uniform with the added comment that nothing other than Gieves would do. And while I was in London, get a new Bates hat as well! Not long after, Dad retired from the mob and I acquired his uniforms. Once I had reached his rank I had his Alkit uniforms re-tailored by Ernie Bedford in Newark who commented that they were all very well made.

My Moss Bros SD hat required a bent wire coat-hanger to give it the required droop at the edges - maybe the reason I had to buy a new one. My Bates had acquired the desired effect all on it's own and lasted for the rest of my non-illustrious career.

[Haraka]

I had to smile when being fitted for my Poulson and Scone OP Shoes when a Junior Cadet at the Towers in '68.
"These will be made especially for you ,Sir"
So I put my right foot on the pedestal to have it drawn around on crayon to a backing paper , on to which my details were duly annotated ..
"Your shoes will now be made by our craftsmen to your personal specification, Sir "
In due course they arrived ,
Stamped on the sole.

"Size 10 "

[Timelord]

I am pleased to report that Gieves still do customer service pretty well. On a very hot day last summer I had been up very early traipsing around London looking for a particular item of clothing and by mid afternoon had become pretty “hot and bothered”: In desperation I ended up at No 1 Saville Row. As I walked in the immaculate salesman looked me up and down and said “would sir like a drink”

[ShyTorque]

I must admit, I don't get that level of service from my present tailor, Matt Allan... :oh:

[Old Bricks]

As a flight cadet at Cranwell in the late 60s, when we still did 2.5 years there, the provision of No 1 uniforms was quite a palaver. On arrival, we were measured up for a No 1 made (ISTR) by RE City, together with a particularly horrible college blazer with badge. A small payment (about £25 - but remember, that was about a month's pay) was made to us to buy a hat, gloves and shoes, which I think came from Gieves, who had a shop on camp. During the next year, but encouraged to do so as soon as possible, we had to buy a second No1 and hat plus mess kit from Gieves, who had the contract. The money for this (£100) was not payable to the cadet until mid-second year, but Mr Gieves accepted this and let us have the kit up front, knowing that we would cough-up the £100 when it was paid. Sadly (for Mr Gieves), the money was paid a week before the 99 Entry trip to Colorado Springs, and the temptation of an exchange rate of $2.40 = £1 was too much for many of us. Mr Gieves was not a happy cat, and demanded interviews with the Commandant ref the enormous debt he held. On graduation, another £100 was paid with which to buy a third No 1, which was obviously OTT, a greatcoat, another pair of shoes and a cabin trunk. All this went by the wayside in order to pay Gieves for the second No1 and mess kit, so a cheap barathea battledress and a £10 greatcoat from Ernie Bedford in Newark had to suffice.
The USAF Academy trip was great - with no expenses spared!

[mabmac]

With reference to Timelord's post, the service at Gieves was always excellent. In the mid-seventies I was based in London and used to pop in to 1 Saville Row occasionally for bits of uniform. In those days I was generally dressed in a tie and jacket. I used to be greeted at the front door and left on my own to walk upstairs to the military section where the staff couldn't have been more helpful. However I had taken to commute on a motorbike and on one occasion I made the mistake of having the temerity to go in wearing bike leathers and carrying a crash helmet. I was intercepted at the front door and was met with a very curt "Can I help you sir", with a great deal of sarcasm on the "sir". "That's alright", I replied, "I'm just going to the military department". I started to go upstairs as usual but the doorman insisted on going with me. Once I reached the department I was reduced to showing my ID card to identify myself as a bona fide officer. At which point everything changed and the staff become so helpful it could only be described as obsequious. I felt like advising them that they shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I refrained from doing so and just smiled inside at the similarity to "Are you being served".

[cafesolo]

Old Bricks: .:Re college blazers,,,,,: All you have to do is carefully unpick the cloth badge;, to make a silk purse of it, remove the brass greatcoat buttons and replace with mess dress buttons ie,gilded and with wings mounted,not stamped. Mine is admired even today,perhaps more so when I say it was a gift of
H.M.The King at Christmas 1952. (It hangs beautifully;pity I can't fasten the buttons.

[Union Jack]

I must admit, I don't get that level of service from my present tailor, Matt Allan... :oh:

Neither did the Midshipman who appeared on a speeding charge before Rodney Gieve, formerly Managing Director of Gieves, acting in his capacity as a magistrate. The mid was duly fined £25 and promptly asked for it to be charged to his account, sadly to no avail.

Jack

[MPN11]

OT again, but Messrs Moss in Covent Garden was tasked to provide me with new Mess overalls, following a particularly blurred Guest Night.

Me: “14 inch hems, please.”
He: “Sir, that woukd only work if wearing Mess boots.”
Me: “I do.”

They were very nice, but sadly shrank in the wordrobe as so many of these things do in later years.
The full-length boots from Singapore in the late 60s still fit perfectly, though.

[NRU74]

Yes, the "bashed hat" Beagle refers to was definately de riguer for many years :

I arrived at Cerney in ‘61 as a very young 17 year old. When we moved to (was it) 2 Mess ? this old hand (aged c 21) told me that the desks in the rooms had been designed so that one of compartments on the right hand side of the desk could be used to bash your hat. On one of the inspections one of the Flight Commanders saw my Bates hat in there being bashed and awarded me three day’s ‘restrictions’!

[Whenurhappy]

Were not RE City and Gieves one and the same? I have a Gieves Greatcoat I bought second hand in Plymouth when RAF Mount Wise closed down. It had had a red silk lining, but it had been roughly removed. I had that reinstated on a foreign tour where the tailors were affordable. I also picked up an RE City No 3 Mess Kit (probably owned by the same chap who sold the greatcoat) - it still fits well but it is heavily quilted, no doubt from the days when Messes did not have central heating. If worn with a waistcoat, it can be uncomfortably warm. But I wont be wearing either items again. I'm holding on to the greatcoat and mess kit for sentimental reasons.

[ShyTorque]

I'm holding on to the greatcoat and mess kit for sentimental reasons.

If you're anything like me, it's to remind me how just slender I used to be! :{

I'm more of a well rounded person these days.... :(

[MPN11]

But I wont be wearing either items again. I'm holding on to the greatcoat and mess kit for sentimental reasons. We have wardrobes full of “His and Hers” uniform nostalgia, and frankly I’d be glad to be rid of them! If we still lived in UK, it might be easier.

[Godwinson324]

With reference to Timelord's post, the service at Gieves was always excellent. In the mid-seventies I was based in London and used to pop in to 1 Saville Row occasionally for bits of uniform. In those days I was generally dressed in a tie and jacket. I used to be greeted at the front door and left on my own to walk upstairs to the military section where the staff couldn't have been more helpful. However I had taken to commute on a motorbike and on one occasion I made the mistake of having the temerity to go in wearing bike leathers and carrying a crash helmet. I was intercepted at the front door and was met with a very curt "Can I help you sir", with a great deal of sarcasm on the "sir". "That's alright", I replied, "I'm just going to the military department". I started to go upstairs as usual but the doorman insisted on going with me. Once I reached the department I was reduced to showing my ID card to identify myself as a bona fide officer. At which point everything changed and the staff become so helpful it could only be described as obsequious. I felt like advising them that they shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I refrained from doing so and just smiled inside at the similarity to "Are you being served".

What a wonderful tale!

[ShyTorque]

Neither did the Midshipman who appeared on a speeding charge before Rodney Gieve, formerly Managing Director of Gieves, acting in his capacity as a magistrate. The mid was duly fined £25 and promptly asked for it to be charged to his account, sadly to no avail.

Jack

No chance of me getting speeding fines put onto my Matalan bill....

[alamo]

Were not RE City and Gieves one and the same? I have a Gieves Greatcoat I bought second hand in Plymouth when RAF Mount Wise closed down. It had had a red silk lining, but it had been roughly removed. I had that reinstated on a foreign tour where the tailors were affordable. I also picked up an RE City No 3 Mess Kit (probably owned by the same chap who sold the greatcoat) - it still fits well but it is heavily quilted, no doubt from the days when Messes did not have central heating. If worn with a waistcoat, it can be uncomfortably warm. But I wont be wearing either items again. I'm holding on to the greatcoat and mess kit for sentimental reasons.
When I was on the last entry of Flight Cadets, RE City, which had a branch in Sleaford was owned by Alkit. Our first No 1's came from RE City but I cannot remember whether they were marked as City or Alkit. Can't remember where the SD hats came from though they were nothing special – I remember sewing the white tape to make the cadet's hat band. OP shoes came from Poulsen Scone. Gieves had a shop on the West Camp, managed by Mr Young. Useful for buying new gloves and collar-attached shirts – the approved style being Van Heusen "Hyde", an improvement on those issue, collar-detached shirts made by Ladybird. We were free to buy our mess kit from wherever – mine came from a chopped officer via RE City. Graduation No 1 came from Gieves though at least one of our number had his made up by another. I cannot remember buying anything else from a military tailor save a pair of gloves and a decent hat from Bates,. Can anyone remember the picture of the officer who looked as if he had just smelt something nasty in the Bates’ advertisement in the College Journal?
I am informed that I am a Veteran and at a meeting of veterans at an airbase in Anglesey recently, I met the new Padre sporting a new SD hat. The top was so large and flat that you could have played a game of cricket on it. When I inquired of its parentage, I was told it was issued from stores. No doubt they are made under contract in Albania or somewhere.

[JW411]

If I might be allowed a bit of thread drift, here is a great SD hat story. Aden 1966. Station Commander had a very strange habit of inspecting some officers' rooms in the Mess on a Saturday morning (your room is your castle?) complete with PMC and SWO man. One of my mates (who was a professional extrovert) gets back from a trip on Saturday evening and finds a note that he is to report to Station Commander at 0900 on Monday morning.

He gets back to his room and finds that his "operational" SD hat (covered in hydraulic oil with a green badge) is missing. The grapevine tells him that the Stn Cdr has visited his room in his absence, found said hat and told the SWO man to take it away and burn it.

Monday morning dawns and it went like this; friend arrives in his very best uniform at 0900 and is put in front of the great man who is saluted very smartly and before he can even open his mouth:

"Good morning Sir. I am really glad that you sent for me this morning for I was going to have to come to see you anyway on a matter of some urgency."

"Really" says puzzled Stn Cdr.

"It seems that for some reason or other that you saw fit to visit my room in my absence on Saturday and my father's hat is missing. Can I have it back please?"

"Yours father's hat?"

"Yes Sir. He was shot down during the Battle of Britain in his Hurricane and was killed. They found his SD hat in the crater and my mother gave it to me for safe keeping. Can I have it back please?"

Of course, said SD hat had been burned by the SWO man so any possible evidence had gone. Friend suggested that an abject apology in writing to mother would be in order.

That wasn't entirely the end of the vendetta and great amusement was yet to come. Sorry for the thread drift.

[Godwinson324]

Absolute cracker of a story!!

[Melchett01]

Marvellous thread - this is what I used to love about the 'virtual PPRuNe crewroom'. Anyhow, still - after 20 years - searching for a proper Officers' greatcoat, not one of those knocked off / bodged airmens' raincoats being passed off as an Officers' greatcoat that one sees all too frequently online. If anyone has any suggestions on where they might be available, all 'int' gratefully received!

[Union Jack]

Marvellous thread - this is what I used to love about the 'virtual PPRuNe crewroom'. Anyhow, still - after 20 years - searching for a proper Officers' greatcoat, not one of those knocked off / bodged airmens' raincoats being passed off as an Officers' greatcoat that one sees all too frequently online. If anyone has any suggestions on where they might be available, all 'int' gratefully received!

I trust that you will also find that there are still plenty of proper officers too.....

Jack

[D120A]

Interesting to hear that Montague Burton made No.1 uniforms for re-labelling by more expensive tailors. No.1s direct from Burton were common amongst officer students at Cranwell in the late 60s, but it helped to order one from a nearby branch than from a Burtons in one's home town. One of my students tried that, at a time when faux military uniforms were all the rage in Carnaby Street and its surrounds, and said "I'd like to order an RAF officer's No.1 uniform, please". To which the Burton salesman replied "Certainly, Sir. What colour would you like it?"

[Fareastdriver]

From JW411's story.

Of course, said SD hat had been burned by the SWO man so any possible evidence had gone.

I wonder if the SWO remembered whether there was a King or a Queen's crown on the badge.

[Haraka]

"Interesting to hear that Montague Burton made No.1 uniforms for re-labelling by more expensive tailors. No.1s direct from Burton were common amongst officer students at Cranwell in the late 60s"
As recommended by Padre Silvanus during relaxed "Other Denominational" Cadet coffee sessions on Sunday Mornings in 1968 and followed up by all of my hut (139) who had professed OD status, releasing us from Church parades etc.
I had suddenly recalled that I was a Baptist . The fact that the other five Cadets in the hut also coincidentally all had differing OD status. was never questioned as to this amazing coincidence. :)

[heights good]

If I might be allowed a bit of thread drift, here is a great SD hat story. Aden 1966. Station Commander had a very strange habit of inspecting some officers' rooms in the Mess on a Saturday morning (your room is your castle?) complete with PMC and SWO man. One of my mates (who was a professional extrovert) gets back from a trip on Saturday evening and finds a note that he is to report to Station Commander at 0900 on Monday morning.

He gets back to his room and finds that his "operational" SD hat (covered in hydraulic oil with a green badge) is missing. The grapevine tells him that the Stn Cdr has visited his room in his absence, found said hat and told the SWO man to take it away and burn it.

Monday morning dawns and it went like this; friend arrives in his very best uniform at 0900 and is put in front of the great man who is saluted very smartly and before he can even open his mouth:

"Good morning Sir. I am really glad that you sent for me this morning for I was going to have to come to see you anyway on a matter of some urgency."

"Really" says puzzled Stn Cdr.

"It seems that for some reason or other that you saw fit to visit my room in my absence on Saturday and my father's hat is missing. Can I have it back please?"

"Yours father's hat?"

"Yes Sir. He was shot down during the Battle of Britain in his Hurricane and was killed. They found his SD hat in the crater and my mother gave it to me for safe keeping. Can I have it back please?"

Of course, said SD hat had been burned by the SWO man so any possible evidence had gone. Friend suggested that an abject apology in writing to mother would be in order.

That wasn't entirely the end of the vendetta and great amusement was yet to come. Sorry for the thread drift.

I am sitting comfortably, please begin 😀

[Paying Guest]

As the only former university cadet on my entry at the Towers, along with 40 direct entrants, I came in for quite a bit of grief from the senior regiment instructor for my No1: "Good grief man, how long have you had that uniform - it looks months old already!"
"Two years sir".
"Hmm".
He also took exception to my nicely drooping SD hat and told me to get a new one. Fortunately, after the parade a sympathetic flt sgt drill instructor took me on one side and said "wait a minute". Sure enough a few minutes later he reappeared with a wire band stiffener from an airman's SD cap. Inserted in Bates and problem solved. Wire band ceremonially removed after passing out parade and handed back to DI.

[Haraka]

That's what happens when you go Comprehensive P G ,,, :)

[Paying Guest]

Ahh too true Haraka! probably just as well that the SRI did not know that the No 1 came, on the advice of the CFI from UAS, from the little tailor just down the road from Strad. Its eventual replacement came from the former station tailor at Muharraq who set up shop again during GW1.

[MPN11]

Marvellous thread - this is what I used to love about the 'virtual PPRuNe crewroom'. Anyhow, still - after 20 years - searching for a proper Officers' greatcoat, not one of those knocked off / bodged airmens' raincoats being passed off as an Officers' greatcoat that one sees all too frequently online. If anyone has any suggestions on where they might be available, all 'int' gratefully received!PM me if you’re 6 ft tall. 1965 vintage but in VGC. One carful owner, unmodified (!) and hardly worn.

[ShyTorque]

PM me if you’re 6 ft tall. 1965 vintage but in VGC. One carful owner, unmodified (!) and hardly worn.

One carful owner? Good grief, that coat must be a helluva size!

:eek:

[MPN11]

One carful owner? Good grief, that coat must be a helluva size!

:eek:
iPad + eyesight + Calvados = Poor sales pitch! :)

[JW411]

heights good:

For your further delectation now that you are seated comfortably here is a follow-up to the SD hat saga. It went something like this:

It will come as no surprise to learn that our hero's room soon became the focal point of the Stn Cmdr's itinerary on a Saturday morning. Cleaners were hired (bribed) and it was soon immaculate so that no fault could come from that direction. A couple of weeks later, the great man visited while our hero was in residence. No fault could be found until his eyes lit upon the calendar hanging on the wall.

"That will have to go".

Our hero is puzzled for it was a perfectly ordinary calendar and did not feature ladies in risque poses or anything else likely to be offensive

"I'm puzzled Sir. What exactly is wrong with it?"

"It is what is vulgarly known as a 'gnomie calender' (Tourex date ringed and every day that passes by is crossed out heading towards the 'going home' date). It is very bad for the airmens' morale."

Our hero tried to point out that the airmen didn't exactly tramp through his room on the way to breakfast but finally agreed that it would go. Fast forward two weeks and our hero is actually in bed having not got back from his previous trip until 0300. The great man arrives and there on the wall is the same calendar with another 14 days crossed out.

"I thought I told you to get that thing removed?"

"You did Sir and I understood everything you said but you must realise that that is not MY Tourex date, it's YOURS!"

The PMC later said that he had the utmost difficulty in suppressing a huge guffaw.

Our hero had reckoned that he was reasonably safe for he was due to be repatriated that evening on a VC10 back to UK to go on terminal leave before leaving the RAF and then to start work on 707s for a UK airline. Then tragedy struck. The VC10 went tech so a safe house had to be found quickly downtown. He was smuggled out of Aden early next morning in one of our own aircraft up to Bahrain where he then cadged a lift back home on a Britannia to Lyneham.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gieves did indeed have a shop. It was in Strait Street in Valletta.

My first SD Hat in 1961 was from Alkit, my No 1 and No 2 from Moss Bros and No 5 from City. The attraction of the No 5 from City was the special lapel facing which I was told was wipe clean and indeed in its 49 year life it never needed cleaning.

The other item was the Crombie Great Coat and I think that was Moss Bros too.

None of our kit was provided from stores apart from Hairy Blues, beret (but not badge), shirts and collars, and airman pattern shoes.

As there was a fair chop rate we did not get the money to buy a second No 1, No 5, or Great Coat until we finished flying training.

My 2nd No 1 was second hand from a pilot when the first was 14 years old. It lasted for the next 25 years as it was worn infrequently, and finally replaced 2nd hand for the last 10 years. It wax a Burton's model.

[Haraka]

"Gieves did indeed have a shop. It was in Strait Street in Valletta."


As good excuse ,as any, for a Gutex I suppose...........

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

I am gradually recovering from the 'memory mirth' associated with uniforms,appearance and inevitable parade mishaps!

I have reminded myself of airmen giving me salutes and then bursting with laughter during my final RAF days. Having been told
to buy a new SD hat within months of leaving, I sought to smarten up the offending titfer with washing up cleaner. Walking to the
Squadron from the Mess one rainy morning, I encountered the 'laughing' boys. On arrival in the crew room, seeking reasons for the
encounter from my chums, I was advised to look at my SD hat. It was Bright Green and Foaming!!

Apologies- a bit of thread drift! Do we also recollect from those days a delightful artist who visited the Mess's named "Pat Rooney"
I have no doubt ,dozens of studys still contain his finest characterisations of the Young Boys in Blue, complete with comments!!

[oxenos]

I not only have one of myself, dated 1960, but alsoone of my F i L dated 1941.