Fear in Combat

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Having talked a little about Red Flag, this former F-15E pilot provides a very candid view on the fear that comes with real combat:

https://youtu.be/OWyjAaZRp3k?t=1770

Anyone else willing to share their experiences?

[Whenurhappy]

Not on the air, but as an acting Det Cdr in Macedonia in 1999, I was confronted with a situation with injured allied personnel (injured in a car accident) being taken hostage by armed militia. I stood my ground, but remember trembling with rage so much I had to put my pistol on a table to line up the loaded magazine. The guys with AK 47s and RPGs were a murderous lot but let teo of our guys go, but held an injured Norwegian captain at gun point. The incident didn't end that well; but I remember downing a large number of beers whe the Wg Cdr turned up to debrief us. I remember shaking a lot. Got written up for a MOD, but compared with what our people have done in Iraq and Afghanistan in more recent years, I feel ashamed.

[jayteeto]

I did one particular mission in Kosovo/Serbia where I was professional in my flying, but quite literally kacking my pants for 15 minutes of pure terror. Not scared to admit it

[tarantonight]

I did one particular mission in Kosovo/Serbia where I was professional in my flying, but quite literally kacking my pants for 15 minutes of pure terror. Not scared to admit it

If prepared to provide more information jayteeto, I’m sure your account would be a very interesting read.

TN.

[Hubstrasse]

Was stood with the OP at the time, shuffling around in the shadows attempting to resolve the 'situation' without escalation but gentle 'positive diplomacy' seem to remember a couple of wind-down cold-ones later on too.
There is a bit of a tale to the episode.

And Yup, could be a bit sixpence- half- a- crown 'sausage side' in '99

Hubs

[gums]

Salute!

Somehow I get the impression that most of the posters here did not fly a whole lotta combat missions when the other side was really upset and were shooting back. My bio is referenced on the link at my login name.

I gotta tellya that training and practicing really reduces the lump in the throat, but it is still there the first few times you make a pass and the other folks want to kill you! After that it becomes a combination of "do your job" and don't do something stupid.

My ilk had the opportunity to fly hundreds of missions while getting shot at back in the late 60's and early 70's. Down south it was mainly small arms and a 12.7 mm or 23mm now and then. Further north and along the trail it was everything the PACT provided the Vee.

Bottom line was not worrying about it, and for chrissakes do not have a picture of your girlfriend taped the instrument panel!!!!!

Like my CO told us going Downtown during the Christmas Blitz of 72..."Don't worry about dying. Get to the target and for a few seconds going down the chute your ass belongs to Uncle Sam, the Air Force and apple pie. Hit the damned target! If you die then you don't have to worry about anything. If you don't, then you don't have anything to worry about. So don't worry!"

I was only scared the first one or two times I got shot at. After that it was a "contest".

Gums sends...

[Lima Juliet]

Living in denial most of life, then for my first operational missions over Bosnia then I was more worried about being captured than killed. That was a result of the Conduct after Capture Course - I would have been better off not doing that and living that element in denial too! Then Iraq and Afghanistan - more worried about the civilian ‘reception committee’ than the other side’s combatants.

[Wander00]

But could you still sweat afterwards....

Seriously though, huge respect to those who have been in challenging circumstances, been scared, and prepared to admit it. My hat is doffed

[charliegolf]

I've always thought, from the comfort of my armchair or cold-war/peacetime flying, that 'knowing it, but still doing it' is the bravest thing of all. A local man, friend of my parents flew liberators in the war, and flew with an irishman called Ensor (sp) who was apparently a decorated officer. After an attack on a channel port with incredible AAA coming up, Ensor asked my neighbour, "Were you frightened then Taff?" Neighbour answerd, "Skipper, I was sh1tting myself in and out!" He said, "Good, you can fly with me again- I don't want to be in an aeroplane with anyone who says they weren't scared by that." Having his fear 'validated' by someone he thought a hero stopped him feeling a coward for being scared. He was a lovely, humble man. RIP Campbell Hanbury.

CG

[Imagegear]

When I was a kid, my friend's father had been a Navigator on Lancs He would never talk about the "war" or any other war, or what he did.
I was around 8 or 10 when we were all having dinner together with another family when he suddenly felt the need to talk.
Gradually, the other adults gently helped him to remember a few things. The kids were ushered away from the table. (I was definitely to be seen but not heard), but I could still hear.

He had done his training at Lindholme and moved onto ops.

He accepted from the start that for his own piece of mind it was better to keep his focus on the charts and navigation kit, keep his headphones on, and not consider what was taking place outside of his bubble.
Yes, occasional shaking from exploding flak, and the noise of shrapnel hitting the aircraft, but he stayed in his own world, always coming back safely to home base.
He was only invited to the cockpit once during his 15-20 trips during an op to Berlin.

On getting close to the target, he was shocked to see, "flaming onions" coming up towards them, aircraft going down, the fires of hell below and the pilots trying to hold a straight course through the chaos.

He did a few more trips after that but never again went to the cockpit and the war ended soon after,

He was still in his early 30's, but he seemed to me to be a very old gentleman.

RIP Colin Firth RAF Navigator

IG

[Airbubba]

If you die then you don't have to worry about anything. If you don't, then you don't have anything to worry about. So don't worry!"

A great chiasmus. :ok:

[pettinger93]

A recent letter in 'The Times' repeated the remark by a New Zealand cricket captain, who had been a fighter pilot in WW2. When asked about how he handled the pressures of playing first class cricket, he laughed and said that there was no pressure, that 'real pressure was flying a mosquito over Europe in in 1943 with a Messerschmidt up your arse'.

[racedo]

Not sure from where the quote comes from but

"We train you to death, so when it really happens and fear kicks in, you will revert to your training rather than to your fear".

[flighthappens]

A recent letter in 'The Times' repeated the remark by a New Zealand cricket captain, who had been a fighter pilot in WW2. When asked about how he handled the pressures of playing first class cricket, he laughed and said that there was no pressure, that 'real pressure was flying a mosquito over Europe in in 1943 with a Messerschmidt up your arse'.

It was the Australian all rounder Keith Miller.

[pettinger93]

Flighthappens: thanks for the additional info, and apologies for the wrong nationality. It still a good quote.

[Slow Biker]

It was the Australian all rounder Keith Miller.

I thought it was the late Richie Benaud. Regardless, a great quote that some of our sporting prima donnas should think about.

[megan]

We recently had a TV interview with Matt Hall of Red Bull Air Race fame. He was a RAAF F-18 driver who spent a three year exchange with the USAF flying the F-15 bomb truck, was in the package that made the opening attack on Baghdad. Following the attack his element found themselves low on fuel and had to egress by doing a 180 and overflying the now wide awake city through an absolute barrage of fire. Claimed it was the event that later caused his PTSD, such was his fear of running the gauntlet through the fire.

[weemonkey]

Living in denial most of life, then for my first operational missions over Bosnia then I was more worried about being captured than killed. That was a result of the Conduct after Capture Course - I would have been better off not doing that and living that element in denial too! Then Iraq and Afghanistan - more worried about the civilian ‘reception committee’ than the other side’s combatants.

Interesting point.

Remember sitting in a brief being told how we would be wading through a fog of acidic vapour servicing our aircraft...

Great way to build the foundations of a fighting wing that.

But not as frightening as the NAIAD's going of in sequence along the fence line at night....

[SASless]

I had several experiences to question my decision to take up flying helicopters in the US Army...far too many actually.

The one that stands out most was when I had a .51 Caliber Round remove the left pedal from under my foot, start a hydraulic fluid fed fire under my feet while carrying an underslung load in cloud.

The North Vietnamese Army gunner and I both had a very lucky day.

He hit my aircraft and missed me.

We were quite busy for a while....but ultimately made a safe landing at a Special Forces Camp from which I was medevac'd with burns and a shrapnel wound.

Yes....it stays with you....and it is after all the fun and games when you have time to contemplate everything that happened that the deep down cold realization of how close you came to snuffing it gets to you.

There were other times when you knew ahead of time the LZ was "hot" and you were without doubt were going to get shot at that gave time for the worry to get up close and cozy too.

Being scared is easy....saddling up and carrying on without showing fear to your subordinates is the hard part.

I learned it is wise to never fly with someone braver than you are.

[gums]

Salute!

For some here, SAS may have lifted my crippled Dragonfly from Saigon and dragged it back to Bien Hoa.
I had to deadstick the thing into the airport after running outta gas due to many bullet holes in my fuel lines.

Gums sends...

[SASless]

Gums young fella,

The one I lifted to Bien Hoa was from Vinh Long and had been put down due to a hydraulics problem as I recall.

It was well after dark when we got it back as we had to refuel in Duc Hoa after picking it up.

[Mil-26Man]

Not on the air, but as an acting Det Cdr in Macedonia in 1999, I was confronted with a situation with injured allied personnel (injured in a car accident) being taken hostage by armed militia. I stood my ground, but remember trembling with rage so much I had to put my pistol on a table to line up the loaded magazine. The guys with AK 47s and RPGs were a murderous lot but let teo of our guys go, but held an injured Norwegian captain at gun point. The incident didn't end that well; but I remember downing a large number of beers whe the Wg Cdr turned up to debrief us. I remember shaking a lot. Got written up for a MOD, but compared with what our people have done in Iraq and Afghanistan in more recent years, I feel ashamed.

Sounds like you were reacting to adrenaline, rather than fear. Even if it was fear, nothing to feel ashamed about.

[Capt Kremmen]

An obituary in the D. Tel. of yesterday's date records the passing at the age of 101of one of the last four surviving Battle of Britain pilots; Fl.Lt. Maurice Mounsdon.

When asked previously about his Battle of Britain experiences, he recalled: "The dogfights were pretty frightening. Everyone was firing at the same time. It was a matter of luck whether or not you survived but, at the end of it all, it was the happiest time of my life, though I lost of lot of good friends".

Fl. Lt. Mounsdon flew Hurricanes during the Battle. He was eventually shot down in flames and became one of Archibald McIndoe's early members of the Guinea Pig Club.

[Mozella]

I flew 153 combat missions over North Viet Nam in 1976/1968 as a Navy Fighter Pilot in the F-8 Crusader. I specifically remember not experiencing any fear even when the SAMs and AAA were particularly thick and I thought it rather odd, both now and at the time.

I expected to be afraid, but I wasn't. Of course, I was a youngster only 21 and 22 years old without a wife or kids. The really old guys around 30 years old were of two types. A number of them were literally completely fearless, or at least they talked and flew that way. These men were respected by all of us. Most of the other guys were seriously frightened, at least from time to time, but did an equally fine job anyway. They were also well respected. Then there were one or two who really didn't belong there but they didn't turn in their wings because they had a career to protect. So they found a way to avoid the tougher missions by claiming a malfunction or faking a radio failure prior to launch. These pilots were not well respected........... no surprise there.

Personally, I was having a ball. I have a vivid memory of telling myself that I was living life as if I were playing a part in an exciting movie. That sounds strange now, but it really was fun. That sort of combat flying in the most hostile air environment ever seen before or since is a real test of one's flying skills and demonstrating those skills, it seemed to me, was something quite satisfying. Of course it helped being totally convinced that I would never get shot down. I truly believed that, even after watching one SA-2 fly by close enough to read the Russian lettering and noting the failure of the warhead to detonate or when returning to the carrier with a few holes in my airplane. It was dangerous flying indeed and we lost a quarter of the 100 or so Airwing pilots, either killed or captured. But I knew in my heart, they would never get me.

Having said that, I also remember my knees shaking on quite a few occasions after a night carrier landing. This was particularly concerning when some 18 year old Fly One taxi director was guiding you out of the arresting gear and up to the parking spot on the bow with your port side main gear rolling along less than a foot from the edge of the deck, all in pitch darkness. The only thing you could see were his two illuminated taxi wands. Then, since the seat of the Crusader was forward of the nose gear, they would taxi you out over the bow before signaling a sharp right turn to spot you on the bow. Precision steering (using the rudder pedals) when my knees were clacking together added to the challenge. I don't remember being afraid, but it's obvious my knees were scared s**t-less.

Of course, the anxiety associated with night carrier landings in the F-8 is the same with or without combat. In fact, the Aviation Physiology guys put heart monitors on a few guys and took blood samples from the rest of us to determine when we experienced maximum stress. For the F-8 guys catapult shots produced moderate anxiety, combat flying produced the least anxiety, and landings the most, especially night landings. We could have told them that and saved them the trouble.

In retrospect I should have been frightened but I guess I was too young, too stupid, too uninformed, too full of my own B.S., too confident, too highly trained, too good, and simply too afraid of being afraid. It worked out though and if I could recreate any part of my life it would be those year of carrier operations in the Gulf of Tonkin.

[Mogwi]

I have only 52 missions under my belt but concur with Gum; the first couple are the worst. Not helped by the fact that I was hit by 20mm HE at 150' over the target on the very first mission. I have extremely vivid memories of rounding Mount Low at 50' to see a firestorm of ground fire and missiles coming my way from the airfield at Stanley. I was scared for about 6 nano-secs before the training kicked in and I found myself flying at 10' AGL and 480 kts. Seemed safer down there, somehow.

The only other time that I really felt scared was in the wardroom bar, in anti-flash, with a half-empty pint, knowing that an Exocet was due in 30secs and there was cock-all that I could do about it. I did feel very angry on occasions though!

The brave guys were the ones who were scared witless and did the job anyway.

Mog

[Capt Kremmen]

Mozella

What a superb recall. What an excellent trip down Memory Lane ! I think that the key explanation is the extreme youthfulness of most who tell their story. At aged eighteen, nineteen or twenty, fear plays little part. That is why war is necessarily a young mans game.

[SASless]

There is a book called "Terror in the Starboard Seat" by a WWII Mozzie Navigator that is an excellent account that directly relates to our discussion.

I very much recommend the book....it is humorous and reminds us of the dangers of combat flying no matter the War.

[Capt Kremmen]

SASless

Any additional info please regarding the book you mention ? ISBN number ? Authors name ? Publisher ?

My own rather humble experiences in dodging angry bullets and the odd grenade while serving in No. 40 Commando left me at the time and subsequently with feelings of extreme exhilaration and excitement. Fear, then, wasn't on the agenda. Years later, there were two or three occasions when the words bowel, evacuation and the eye of a needle featured as a description of events.

[SamYeager]

SASless

Any additional info please regarding the book you mention ? ISBN number ? Authors name ? Publisher ?

My own rather humble experiences in dodging angry bullets and the odd grenade while serving in No. 40 Commando left me at the time and subsequently with feelings of extreme exhilaration and excitement. Fear, then, wasn't on the agenda. Years later, there were two or three occasions when the words bowel, evacuation and the eye of a needle featured as a description of events.
Check this link for more info.

[Capt Kremmen]

SamYeager

Thank you.

[jayteeto]

My encounter was a 15 minute battle of wills with a ground based SAM system. I had to get over some high ground and he didn’t want to let me. I had a fabulous young exchange officer next to me who knew his radar stuff. Every time the radar locked a little bit more poop came out. We eventually got through thanks to his brain, NOT my flying

[Commander Taco]

I can also highly recommend “Terror In The Starboard Seat”. All the elements are there, joy, fear, pathos, etc. After the war, Dave McIntosh became a parliamentary press corespondent (and sometime author) in Ottawa. His pilot, after surviving 41 sorties in a Mosquito, died a seemingly stupid death several decades after the war.

Their Squadron Leader was a man named Russ Bannock who just turned 100 in early November. He comes across as a born leader of men, getting excellent mentions in the book. After the war, Russ became the chief test pilot for de Havilland Canada and test flew everything from the Chipmunk up to (I believe) the Caribou. I was utterly privileged to have met Russ two years ago through a mutual friend. We booked a PR session in the B787 simulator and spent a very enjoyable three hours in the box with him - and he’s still pretty good.

After our sim session, I asked Russ if he would be so kind as to autograph my copy of the book, which he most graciously did. I also tucked a photo taken of us that day which safely inside the book.

Wikipedia - Russ Bannock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Bannock)

[BVRAAM]

I have only 52 missions under my belt but concur with Gum; the first couple are the worst. Not helped by the fact that I was hit by 20mm HE at 150' over the target on the very first mission. I have extremely vivid memories of rounding Mount Low at 50' to see a firestorm of ground fire and missiles coming my way from the airfield at Stanley. I was scared for about 6 nano-secs before the training kicked in and I found myself flying at 10' AGL and 480 kts. Seemed safer down there, somehow.

The only other time that I really felt scared was in the wardroom bar, in anti-flash, with a half-empty pint, knowing that an Exocet was due in 30secs and there was cock-all that I could do about it. I did feel very angry on occasions though!

The brave guys were the ones who were scared witless and did the job anyway.

Mog

How did you feel during the aerial engagements? Does the adrenaline of a live 'dogfight' make it easier to cope under high G?

[Mogwi]

How did you feel during the aerial engagements? Does the adrenaline of a live 'dogfight' make it easier to cope under high G?


Extremely focused! Don't know if adrenalin can help with G tolerance but apart from being very focused on the job in hand, my feelings swung rapidly between extreme anger - when I saw an A4 hit a landing craft and empathy - when the second guy banged out after I hit him and his winger with AIM9Ls.

Mind you, it was all over within seconds and then there was the joy of my first ever night deck landing, under a CB, in hissing rain with 90 secs of gas left in the tank.

Al least they kept the bar open for us!

Mog