NZ Volcano eruption on White Island

[mickjoebill]

Early reports are often unreliable.
50 tourists were thought to be on the island and 23 have been accounted for so far, five of them confirmed dead. Every survivor had injuries :(
Some tourists were from the cruise ship Ovation of the Seas.
This link shows a damaged AS 350 (?) adjacent what looks to be a raised pad.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/09/how-tourists-became-first-aiders-on-seas-off-white-island-volcano-new-zealand

2018 Video of heli operations.
https://twitter.com/annefitzpatrick/status/1203914741170802689?s=20
Mjb

[NutLoose]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-50711958

Third image down, abandoned Helicopter? centre right, hope everyone is ok. Looks like a damned good force landing.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x651/_110060170_white_island_2_e7f4be781284ecbe8bf7735d1b1dde08a0 24802f.jpg

[NutLoose]

Another video showed the wreckage of a helicopter that had been flying over the island when the eruption happened.
Volcanic Air, a tour company based in Rotorua, later confirmed that the pilot and four passengers were unharmed and had returned to the mainland via boat on Monday afternoon.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvggnx/no-signs-of-life-after-volcano-on-new-zealands-white-island-erupts

https://volcanicair.co.nz/fleet/

[India Four Two]

I suspect that the AS350 in that picture was not flying over the island but was on the ground. You can visit White Island via a boat trip of several hours or via a 30 minute helicopter ride. Both tours leave from the closest town - Whakatane (pronounced with an F).

White Island is described as New Zealand's most active volcano, but the activity is mostly steam from fumaroles and a nearly-boiling crater lake. There are occasional, infrequent explosive discharges of steam and ash (phreatic eruptions) like yesterday's. There has not been eruption of lava in at least 200 years.

When I visited White Island ten years ago, R44s were being used and one was already on the ground when we arrived. The landing area is about 700 m from the active crater lake which is consistent with the location of the AS350 in Nutloose's picture.

Helicopter landing area with the crater in the background:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1788x1341/helicopter_and_crater_img_3761_copy_2bf0d98659918c555f3c5829 f70d31b3c1753fd6.jpg

Fumaroles. The steam is continuously venting with a sound like a large, subterranean steam-engine. A strong sulphur smell in the air:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x873/fumaroles_img_3685_copy_8cbf6082afe2659006fc4f4f69c65cfa7c51 fb3d.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1987x1490/fumaroles_img_3716_copy_05dd055952dcd45126490af2d6094a9afd3d c12f.jpeg


Crater lake - 90º C and a pH similar to battery acid:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/crater_img_3711_copy_95ec813cb6155b0c37e5182290758edb8daa9cb 4.jpg

Our pilot/guide returning to the helicopter. We were issued with hard hats and respirators, but I imagine these would not have been much use in yesterday's eruption:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1573x1116/white_island_helicopter_img_3764_copy_6f00990903f448d869389c eb84a019de269d2324.jpg

White Island is private land. I suspect that after this accident, the rules may change or it may even be taken over by the government:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/white_island_sign_img_3763_copy_e42fe70022054b18257b3bfe1756 d3a08e69b34a.jpeg

[NutLoose]

What do you think accounts for the rotor damage, the eruption?

[ApolloHeli]

What do you think accounts for the rotor damage, the eruption?

My guess is a big rock coming down. It's not only ash that gets thrown upwards during an eruption....

[India Four Two]

My guess is a big rock coming down.

I agree. See the rocks in the foreground of the first picture I posted. They were parts of the crater wall, blown out during an eruption.

[noooby]

Quote" "White Island is private land. I suspect that after this accident, the rules may change or it may even be taken over by the government"

That isn't how the Govt works in NZ. They won't take over the island. There will certainly be a look over operations to the island, especially considering the eruption risk recently increased.

People tend to forget that it is VERY active. There are still 10 bodies there somewhere from 1914 when the Sulphur mine disappeared in a mud slide. Only the cat survived.

We regularly had Tsunami drills at school. The crater is barely above sea level and if it does blow, the rapid influx of sea water would set up a catastrophic explosion similar but smaller to Krakatoa. In my town we had 4 minutes (from very distant memory!) to get out. So our drill was to hide under our desks. Hmmmmm.

It is an unforgettable experience walking in the crater. Even more so when you come to the end of the path, only to find that the path did continue on the day before but has now been swallowed by the volcano!

[Autonomous Collectiv]

I used to fly tours out there for the red rash early in my career. White Island experiences 100's of earthquakes a day somedays but mostly only minor and you'd never know unless you were looking at the seismographs. About the end of my time there I spent two days with the geologists ferrying them around while they installed equipment. That was around the time of the first of the big Christchuch quakes in around 2010/11. We were on our way out when all their phones started pinging, much conversation followed in the aircraft about CHCH going off. WI is a very interesting place and as was said above eye opening when a section of track that you walked yesterday or this morning isn't there anymore. I would not be surprised if this quake is just a warm up.

[kiwi grey]

According to reports in NZ, four helicopters landed on White Island in the immediate aftermath of the eruption, and rescued all the victims who were accessible - the eight left behind had almost certainly already passed away. One machine was a HEMS, the others were private aircraft.
The pilots - and the onboard paramedic(s) in the HEMS - willingly took themselves and their aircraft into an extremely hazardous landing zone: the wrecked machine shown in the first post being a visible warning to them all. For all any of them knew, the volcano could let loose again at any time.

Thanks and major applause to those crews

[alicopter]

Well done these crews... Respect and admiration. Fly safe and sad condolences to families of those who did not escape in time.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

I did a trip to White Island in 1997 about a year before I moved from Gisborne to Wairarapa.

It was with a company called Vulcan Helicopters, but I don't think they exist any more.

We flew out there in a Hughes 500, four of us plus the pilot.

It was an amazing trip, but I got the feeling it could potentially be a very dangerous place and the air was full of sulphur fumes.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

And as for talk about banning tours to White Island … New Zealand loses hundreds of people in motor vehicle crashes on our roads every year.

So does this mean we should ban using motor vehicles on roads? After all, motor vehicle crashes kill many, many, many times more people than volcanos do in NZ.

[nomorehelosforme]

What is that four engined fixed wing type in the background of the second photo?

I might be miles off with this but bearing in mind there was a company called Vulcan, could the fixed wing be this?

https://www.google.com/search?q=vulcan+aircraft&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=pJlbeq-k9OOlpM:

Not sure if a Vulcan even went to NZ

[John Eacott]

I might be miles off with this but bearing in mind there was a company called Vulcan, could the fixed wing be this?

https://www.google.com/search?q=vulcan+aircraft&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=pJlbeq-k9OOlpM:

Not sure if a Vulcan even went to NZ
Guys, my photo was of my first JetRanger after being caught in a volcanic eruption in Rabaul, many years ago. It wasn't NZ nor White Island.

Here's a further image of the Volcanic Air AS350 from yesterday


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/78932962_2693154834040810_6299025076700315648_o_8db198db6aba 5d97000ae7387f05ea6dd8feb753.jpg

[Capt Fathom]

Blown off its perch John!

Re Post 15..
What is that four engined fixed wing type in the background of the second photo?
Looks like a Cessna 402 with its engines (and front cowls) removed.

[Autonomous Collectiv]

Just read a news article, the chickenlickens are already asking why people are allowed to go there? OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!

[Buswinker]

Just read a news article, the chickenlickens are already asking why people are allowed to go there? OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!

I’m already hoping to plan a trip there :D

[megan]

News last night had an unfortunate video taken from an elevated position of a party of about four individuals walking a path close to the crater a minute before it blew. RIP I assume.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Just read a news article, the chickenlickens are already asking why people are allowed to go there? OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!

Those chickenlickens should be asking why people are allowed to drive motor vehicles on New Zealand's roads.

Motor vehicle crashes on NZ roads kill hundreds of people every year … way more than any volcano has ever killed in New Zealand, including the Mount Tarawera eruption and the Tangiwai rail disaster.

[Bravohotel]

Monday 19th September 1994 Rabaul Airport , Papua New Guinea the BN2 & Cessna 402s belonged to Airlink and the AS350 was owned by Pacific Helicopters. I will never forget that morning we were the only flyable light Aircraft to leave (Airlink Cessna 404) just after 6am minutes after Tavurvur erupted,followed by the Air Niugini F-28 which had overnighted and they were the last Aircraft to ever use the old Airport, we landed at the disused Tokua Airport, now the main Rabaul Airport.

[Gate_15L]

I did a trip to White Island in 1997 about a year before I moved from Gisborne to Wairarapa.

It was with a company called Vulcan Helicopters, but I don't think they exist any more.

We flew out there in a Hughes 500, four of us plus the pilot.

It was an amazing trip, but I got the feeling it could potentially be a very dangerous place and the air was full of sulphur fumes.
My condolences to all affected and those that have lost loved ones.

Yes, Vulcan Helicopters used to operate out to White Island out of Whakatane.
Robert was the owner and pilot. I used to work for him as ground crew cleaning his helicopter every day after the last tour. He sold the Hughes and got a BK117 B2, with 10 seats.

Being such a corrosive environment, Robert and I spent about 2 hours each day cleaning his aircraft and gear carefully, compressor wash etc. Hard hats and gas masks for all.

PJ’s tours was the boat based operator. Every operator out there was very cautious and in contact with GNS volcanologist all the time. These are not cowboy operators. I’m quite frankly disgusted about some of the comments made by the attention seeking volcanologist from Monash that is Captain Hindsight. Obvious attempt to grab his 3 seconds of fame and hopefully life time of infamy. Pratt. Tours have operated to White Island for over 30 years managing the risk carefully.

I ve also been to White Island a few times too. You’d land near the water at the flat area where the crater walk has gone. Then it was about a hour walk around the island, often to the crater lake edge, but back from it because it wasn’t sure how stable the edge was. The island is alive. It lives and breathes. It moves and definitely has moods. There are many fumaroles belching out jets of steam at over 150 km/hr. Was like standing next to a jet engine exhaust.The air is acrid. Sour like lemon juice but 10x worse. Hence masks on. Often your clothes would come back bleached from the sulphuric acid vapour.

Volcanoes by by their nature are unpredictable. It doesn’t make the loss any more acceptable but a criminal investigation and apportioning blame will achieve very little. But such is the ill considered emotion reaction of the internet generation that doesn’t have the foggiest idea about risk management and judgement.

[nomorehelosforme]

Here is some helicopter footage in the immediate aftermath of the eruption.

t starts as a daunting white cloud hanging in the distance - and it doesn't take long for the enormity of the White Island volcano blast to become clear.

Footage shows what courageous helicopter rescuers went through as they battled their way through thick clouds of smoke, ash and acidic steam following the eruption on Monday.

The death toll is feared to be as high as 13 after the volcano, known locally as Whakaari, blew off the coast of New Zealand (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/new_zealand/index.html)'s North Island at 2.11pm local time.

Footage released by the Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust shows two brave first responders landing on the island and shielding their eyes from billowing ash.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7773995/White-Island-Westpac-rescue-chopper-footage-released-death-toll-rises.html

[ehwatezedoing]

Those chickenlickens should be asking why people are allowed to drive motor vehicles on New Zealand's roads.

Motor vehicle crashes on NZ roads kill hundreds of people every year … way more than any volcano has ever killed in New Zealand, including the Mount Tarawera eruption and the Tangiwai rail disaster.
A bit unfair of a comparaison.
Personally I never had any interest playing Russia roulette with an active volcano.
Same with testing my driving skills in Nigeria :p

[Nubian]

My guess is a big rock coming down. It's not only ash that gets thrown upwards during an eruption....

Would bet on the wind generated from the blast, and not falling rocks. The machine has moved off the platform (aft it seems) and I can only imagine the amount of flapping those blades would do being exposed to such wind force. The blades does not seem to have any other damage than them being snapped.

[SASless]

Just for reference to what kind of damage a volcanic eruption can do....for tens of miles distant from the Volcano.

Also....for those operating aircraft and vehicles in volcanic dust.....it is very abrasive pumice.

Inspect your aircraft very...very carefully to include inside the gearboxes and engines....bearings...bushings....everything.


https://www.livescience.com/27553-mount-st-helens-eruption.html


https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/eruption-mount-st-helens-1980/

[lomapaseo]

......

Here's a further image of the Volcanic Air AS350 from yesterday


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/78932962_2693154834040810_6299025076700315648_o_8db198db6aba 5d97000ae7387f05ea6dd8feb753.jpg

That doesn't look like FOD damage to the blades.at same span location.

Could it be maneuver caused?

[SASless]

Two of three blades damaged identically....third looks undamaged.

Seems odd two of three would fail from the same maneuvering forces at the same point on the blades but the third shows no similar failure.

[RVDT]

Considering it looks like it has been blown off the back of the pad, the blades more than likely failed in bending overload in the "up" direction first?

I assume it was "parked" before the eruption facing the direction of the blast? Some serious air velocity there.

[pattern_is_full]

Would bet on the wind generated from the blast, and not falling rocks. The machine has moved off the platform (aft it seems) and I can only imagine the amount of flapping those blades would do being exposed to such wind force. The blades does not seem to have any other damage than them being snapped.

Exactly - the aircraft was parked on the wooden pallet and neither flying nor running. Just sitting there, and damaged and dislodged by the blast wave.

Incidentally, one report says the pilot/guide and his 4 pax were among the less-injured evacuees, presumably because they (and the helo) were at the foot of the cwm near the sea and boat docks, while the eruption came from the upper end (lake area).

[mickjoebill]

Exactly - the aircraft was parked on the wooden pallet and neither flying nor running. Just sitting there, and damaged and dislodged by the blast wave.

Incidentally, one report says the pilot/guide and his 4 pax were among the less-injured evacuees, presumably because they (and the helo) were at the foot of the cwm near the sea and boat docks, while the eruption came from the upper end (lake area).
I don’t disagree with any of the comments, but there has been no mention of a blast by survivors whom were within 200 meters of the pad. Is it parked in a position where nearby topography had a funnelling effect of the blast?


A down draught effect from the initial ejection of earth as it fell back to ground?
Quotes from 1st responder pilot.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/118102150/whakaariwhite-island-people-were-in-real-distress-says-chopper-pilot

Mjb

[ApolloHeli]

I'm no geologist but could the hot ash "melt" or thermally weaken the blades and cause the structural failures seen in the photo? I agree that it does not look like impact damage now that there are better images.

[tartare]

Very sadly, the death toll from this will eventually be much higher.
Those seriously injured are very badly burned.
An old boss who used to be an ED nurse once told me death is inevitable in situations like that - body simply cannot cope.
Usually takes a few days.
Dreadful.

[Twist & Shout]

Blade Damage.

Could the blades all have “melted”? Drooped due heat at the end of an internal “spar”?

[blakmax]

Most rotor blades are fabricated by adhesively bonding skins onto the spar and a honeycomb core. Adhesive design properties change significantly with temperature, the hotter the adhesive, the lower the strength and stiffness. If they get hot enough, the temperature may pass what is termed the Glass Transition Temperature where they change from a stiff glassy material to a soft, weak rubbery material. My guess is that the adhesive became so weak that the weight of the blades and the ash caused the blade to fail.

So sad.

Blakmax

[John Eacott]

Most rotor blades are fabricated by adhesively bonding skins onto the spar and a honeycomb core. Adhesive design properties change significantly with temperature, the hotter the adhesive, the lower the strength and stiffness. If they get hot enough, the temperature may pass what is termed the Glass Transition Temperature where they change from a stiff glassy material to a soft, weak rubbery material. My guess is that the adhesive became so weak that the weight of the blades and the ash caused the blade to fail.

So sad.

Blakmax

Then why are the plastics, etc, on the fuselage and transparencies essentially intact and apparently unaffected by the same heat?

[27/09]

My condolences to all affected and those that have lost loved ones.

Yes, Vulcan Helicopters used to operate out to White Island out of Whakatane.
Robert was the owner and pilot. I used to work for him as ground crew cleaning his helicopter every day after the last tour. He sold the Hughes and got a BK117 B2, with 10 seats.

Being such a corrosive environment, Robert and I spent about 2 hours each day cleaning his aircraft and gear carefully, compressor wash etc. Hard hats and gas masks for all.

PJ’s tours was the boat based operator. Every operator out there was very cautious and in contact with GNS volcanologist all the time. These are not cowboy operators. I’m quite frankly disgusted about some of the comments made by the attention seeking volcanologist from Monash that is Captain Hindsight. Obvious attempt to grab his 3 seconds of fame and hopefully life time of infamy. Pratt. Tours have operated to White Island for over 30 years managing the risk carefully.

I ve also been to White Island a few times too. You’d land near the water at the flat area where the crater walk has gone. Then it was about a hour walk around the island, often to the crater lake edge, but back from it because it wasn’t sure how stable the edge was. The island is alive. It lives and breathes. It moves and definitely has moods. There are many fumaroles belching out jets of steam at over 150 km/hr. Was like standing next to a jet engine exhaust.The air is acrid. Sour like lemon juice but 10x worse. Hence masks on. Often your clothes would come back bleached from the sulphuric acid vapour.

Volcanoes by by their nature are unpredictable. It doesn’t make the loss any more acceptable but a criminal investigation and apportioning blame will achieve very little. But such is the ill considered emotion reaction of the internet generation that doesn’t have the foggiest idea about risk management and judgement.

Where's the PLUS 1 button?

I agree entirely.

[Bergerie1]

Gate_15L,

Thank you for that accurate and considered dose of reality and common sense. The public has very little idea of what risk management involves. And instant analyses by those who do not know what they are talking about, and often with demands for instant retribution, do not help at all.

Sympathy should be extended to all the victims and there relatives, but also to those who tried to manage the risks in a responsible manner, but were caught out.

[Nubian]

Blade Damage.

Could the blades all have “melted”? Drooped due heat at the end of an internal “spar”?

Where do you see "drooped" blades??

The machine is off the pad, with it's right landing gear and one blade buried in the gravel/ash/sand, partly resting on that blade (look at the position of the blade-root/sleeve/star). Now, I'd like to know how hot ash would cause all of that..... and as John say, why no other melting damages?

[601]

Could the blades all have “melted”? Drooped due heat at the end of an internal “spar”?

The rearward blade doesn't appear to have been subject to the same force as the two forward blades. No leading or trailing edges facing the blast front on the rearward blade so no bending forces on that blade.

[pilotmike]

Most rotor blades are fabricated by adhesively bonding skins onto the spar and a honeycomb core. Adhesive design properties change significantly with temperature, the hotter the adhesive, the lower the strength and stiffness. If they get hot enough, the temperature may pass what is termed the Glass Transition Temperature where they change from a stiff glassy material to a soft, weak rubbery material. My guess is that the adhesive became so weak that the weight of the blades and the ash caused the blade to fail.

So sad.

Blakmax

You appear to be implying that it is terribly sad when a helicopter blade gets damaged, though hopefully that is not what you really meant, given the tragic consequences and loss of life from the blast.

[blakmax]

No, the rotor blade is not of importance. As an Australian, given the number of (yet to be confirmed) Aussie casualties, my comment was not directed at the helicopter.

[meleagertoo]

It looks pretty clear to me that the blast of gases was so severe that it simply blew the helo backwards off it's pallet and the into-blast blades failed in flapping. This event wasn't just a pressure-pulse like an explosion, more like a sustained release of high pressure gas through a nozzle, a sustained super-gale-force blast lasting a few seconds. A wind strong enough to blow a helo off its pad would very likely snap the blades too.
Look how the gearbox air intake is packed with debris. If the machine had been parkd anything but nose-on to the crater it would probably have been cartwheeled across the area.

[Autonomous Collectiv]

During tours out there we used to walk past a massive rock split in two about the size of a small house. This was apparently ejected by an eruption early in the 1900's, when you stand next to it, you get a very vivvid idea of the forces at work.

[visibility3miles]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/10/new-zealand-volcano-helicopter-pilot-says-was-victims-last-hope

New Zealand helicopter pilot describes horror of volcano rescue

A commercial helicopter pilot who led a team that rescued 12 victims from the White Island volcano (https://www.theguardian.com/world/white-island-volcano) eruption has told how he believed he was their last hope of survival.

“We found people dead, dying and alive but in various states of unconsciousness,” said Mark Law, a tour company boss who flew to the volcano and spent an hour on the ground even as a pillar of ash towered above them.

Unsure whether emergency services would reach the island in New Zealand’s Bay of Plenty because of fears for their safety, they loaded the victims into the helicopters themselves and flew to the mainland...

...Law piloted one [AS350] Squirrel while his colleague Jason Hill flew the second with a fellow pilot, Tom Storey, as a passenger. Within 20 minutes they were directly over the island...

...Law and his colleagues loaded five people into each of their helicopters and another two into a third private machine that had followed them out...

[nomorehelosforme]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/10/new-zealand-volcano-helicopter-pilot-says-was-victims-last-hope

Brave men in very grim circumstances, doubt there was any training for a situation like this.

[RVDT]

Brave men in very grim circumstances, doubt there was any training for a situation like this.

It used to be called "common sense". Fairly rare commodity these days.

[RVDT]

For those of you that are having difficulty understanding the damage and destruction that can be caused, look up and try to understand "pyroclastic flow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroclastic_flow)".

mickjoebill touched on it previously - A down draught effect from the initial ejection of earth as it fell back to ground?

And the subsequent outflow?

[SASless]

Near supersonic winds....lots of heat....plenty of rocks, molten lava, and other flying objects.....yes an interesting event.

In one of the links I posted earlier there is a photograph of a melted dashboard of a pick up truck.....14km's from Mt. St. Helen and Old Growth Douglas Fir Tree forests blown over even further than that....with even more scorched dead beyond that.

[GordonR_Cape]

Near supersonic winds....lots of heat....plenty of rocks, molten lava, and other flying objects.....yes an interesting event.

In one of the links I posted earlier there is a photograph of a melted dashboard of a pick up truck.....14km's from Mt. St. Helen and Old Growth Douglas Fir Tree forests blown over even further than that....with even more scorched dead beyond that.

Correct in all details, except for molten lava, which forms an entirely different type of volcano. Incandescent rocks are possible, but its mostly superheated steam. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreatic_eruption

[tartare]

RNZN Seasprite left early this morning to retrieve remaining bodies - sounds like it may have been carrying members of SAS - NZ Herald now reporting six of the eight recovered.

[India Four Two]

During tours out there we used to walk past a massive rock split in two about the size of a small house.

Here's one I looked at during my visit to White Island. It's between the helicopter landing area and the beach - probably about 800 m from the crater. It weighs somewhere between one and two tonnes.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1766x1325/boulder_img_3768_copy_8583514483617e3ec4ae0525ec8f6b225f7ff9 36.jpg

Correct in all details, except for molten lava, which forms an entirely different type of volcano. Incandescent rocks are possible, but its mostly superheated steam.

Gordon beat me to it, but I'll make a small correction. White Island is a stratovolcano:
A stratovolcano, also known as a composite volcano, is a conical volcano built up by many layers (strata) of hardened lava, tephra, pumice and ash.

As far as I can tell, there have been no magma eruptions and consquent lava flows for at least two hundred years. As Gordon pointed out, the recent eruptions have been phreatic i.e. steam. The ash and rocks would have come from the walls of the crater, dislodged by the high pressure steam.

During the 1914 eruption, the western wall of the crater collapsed, allowing a lahar (a slurry of hot water and rock particles) to flow out of the crater and demolish the sulphur mining camp, killing ten people. It is this gap in the crater wall (obvious in the aerial photos) which allowed the eruption to blast sideways over the area where the tourists and the helicopter were.

White Island, looking east into the breached crater:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x562/aerial_view_4c240ae24f260b4f703092ff1c544a9d9b464715.jpg

[mickjoebill]

During the 1914 eruption, the western wall of the crater collapsed, allowing a lahar (a slurry of hot water and rock particles) to flow out of the crater and demolish the sulphur mining camp, killing ten people. It is this gap in the crater wall (obvious in the aerial photos) which allowed the eruption to blast sideways over the area where the tourists and the helicopter were.

White Island, looking east into the breached crater:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x562/aerial_view_4c240ae24f260b4f703092ff1c544a9d9b464715.jpg

India four twos description of the topography answers my question regarding why those on the pier apparently did not report or suffer blast injuries. The peir is a few meters below the level of the helicopter on the lower left in the above image.

I am curious that a helicopter has been used in the rescue mission, rather than a boat.
No doubt the helicopter would reduce the time taken to move the bodies to an extraction point, compared to the peir point which is hundreds of meters further away.


mjb

[nomorehelosforme]

Here is an update on the recovery of those that sadly died, as I mentioned before brave people doing this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50753453

[RVDT]

I am curious that a helicopter has been used in the rescue mission, rather than a boat.

if you are referring to the B2 it was there already before the eruption.

[mickjoebill]

if you are referring to the B2 it was there already before the eruption.

I started this thread and mentioned the damaged AS350.

I’m curious as to the risk analysis of boats v helicopters.


mjb

[India Four Two]

mjb,

Having been there, I would say that using a helicopter is much less risky, assuming you don't shut down. It would be much easier to make a quick getaway. Still not without risk though.

If using a boat, he pier is about 800 metres from the crater and it would be fairly slow going, even before the recent eruption and ash fall.

[gulliBell]

I've had a bit of experience flying volcanologists into active volcanoes (including Turvurvur which is the volcano in this YouTube video). They are the type of job you are never comfortable about nor can be complacent about. I was always relieved when the job was done. I've seen rocks as large as cars being shot out of volcanoes. And the sonic boom when they start misbehaving certainly gets your attention. They most certainly are not a place you want to find yourself only wearing shorts, T-shirt and a tin hat and respirator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yMtbTP0pc4

[Fareastdriver]

It would have made the cabins rattle in that container ship.

[SnowFella]

The reported "retrieval" crew kind of makes me wonder what they were thinking...reported as NZ SAS E-squadron, ie specialist EOD crew. Why on earth would you put guys/gals trained to that degree up for a task like this?
Sure they would be trained to work in an NBC environment with protective gear but so would lots of other folks without quite as a specialized background that could take years to re-coup if things had gone boom when on the island.

[gulliBell]

It would have made the cabins rattle in that container ship.

Yeah, too right enough. And it makes my teeth rattle from 10 miles away sipping on an SP at Rapopo. The volcanologists were usually asleep in the back within 2 minutes of extraction. I was usually eyes wide awake for 2 days after those jobs!

[mickjoebill]

A report on the conditions which the recovery team endured...

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/past-the-limits-of-endurance-recovery-team-go-back-to-white-island-to-search-for-last-body-20191215-p53k29.html


Mjb (https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/past-the-limits-of-endurance-recovery-team-go-back-to-white-island-to-search-for-last-body-20191215-p53k29.html)

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x800/whakaari_whiteisland_1_50_000_topomap_1000x800_51946884f0626 621dcec353d4cc5bfec5c1c6778.jpg

[GordonR_Cape]

Thanks Kiwithrottlejockey its a bit bigger than I thought.

The only missing bit is the scale: Heights in meters, and grid scale in kilometers.

[[email protected]]

Snowfella - when you read the article in mjb's link, it becomes quite clear why they used elite troops for the job. Few others would cope with the conditions.

[212man]

Snowfella - when you read the article in mjb's link, it becomes quite clear why they used elite troops for the job. Few others would cope with the conditions.

Very fraught mission and with considerable concerns at senior levels: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12294356

Now for an insensitive remark (for some I guess) but I fail to understand why we expose large numbers of people to such dangers in order to recover worm/fish food. Rescuing live people is a different story. Believe me, If I'm dead I don't want a group of people dying trying to recover my remains.

[mickjoebill]

Now for an insensitive remark (for some I guess) but I fail to understand why we expose large numbers of people to such dangers in order to recover worm/fish food. Rescuing live people is a different story. Believe me, If I'm dead I don't want a group of people dying trying to recover my remains.

A pertinent question that relates to balance..

Post traumatic stress of not recovering a body is debilitating to remaining family and friends.

Versus..

A member of the armed services dying in a heroic rescue mission is politically acceptable.

The outside world was told the odds of a second eruption were 50/50. Presumably there is more to the story than a roll of the dice at those odds?


mjb

[Twist & Shout]

Very fraught mission and with considerable concerns at senior levels: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12294356

Now for an insensitive remark (for some I guess) but I fail to understand why we expose large numbers of people to such dangers in order to recover worm/fish food. Rescuing live people is a different story. Believe me, If I'm dead I don't want a group of people dying trying to recover my remains.

I personally agree with you 100%.
However:
1. NZ had a mining disaster where some bodies were never recovered - they are still feeling bad about that outcome. In that case, it might have been a “hope fading” situation - Awful.
2. It is important for some families that the remains of loved ones are recovered. Some religions/beliefs I guess?

[Autonomous Collectiv]

Now for an insensitive remark (for some I guess) but I fail to understand why we expose large numbers of people to such dangers in order to recover worm/fish food. Rescuing live people is a different story. Believe me, If I'm dead I don't want a group of people dying trying to recover my remains.

Not at all is that insensitive. I have said for a long time to my family. I really don't care what they do with my body after I'm dead, I won't be using it any longer and I'd be ecstatic if it were thrown to the fishes and they got some use from it. I'm absolutely sure that I wouldn't want to put anyone else at risk to recover what is left.

[FullOppositeRudder]

The only missing bit is the scale: Heights in meters, and grid scale in kilometers.


Agreed - a nice map - especially helpful for those who have been there. Wikipedia suggests its area to be 325 Ha (800 acres) and elevation - 321 m (1053 feet). Google earth (or Google Maps) provides a distance scale on the applicable page - FWIW.

I've already had my 5c worth (or less) on the recovering of the deceased on the other coverage of this topic in JB (Also FWIW). To summarise - I understand why they "had to do it ...." dangerous though it might be. I recall reading somewhere that the risk another eruption at the time of the then projected mission was around 6% . Not bad odds, but who could be totally confident? :eek: Very brave and dedicated people there. I salute them.

[601]

I personally agree with you 100%.
However:
1. NZ had a mining disaster where some bodies were never recovered - they are still feeling bad about that outcome. In that case, it might have been a “hope fading” situation - Awful.
2. It is important for some families that the remains of loved ones are recovered. Some religions/beliefs I guess?

And we have been conditioned by the media that we all require "closure"

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Thanks Kiwithrottlejockey its a bit bigger than I thought.

The only missing bit is the scale: Heights in meters, and grid scale in kilometers.


The grid squares are 1,000 metres across.

The topographical lines on the map are spaced at 20 metres altitude apart. The bolder lines are multiples of 100 metres.

I can do you a 3D version if you like. Give me a bit of time and I'll post it.

You obviously aren't familiar with New Zealand topgraphical 1:50,000 scale maps.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1111x824/whakaari_whiteisland_1_50_000_topomap3d_1111x824_a89dfd946ec 3360dc5b44c77ab56f35b207b8fbb.jpg

[wrench1]

And we have been conditioned by the media that we all require "closure"
2. It is important for some families that the remains of loved ones are recovered. Some religions/beliefs I guess?
Believe me, If I'm dead I don't want a group of people dying trying to recover my remains.
FWIW: Having recovered remains via civilian helicopter ops, and received the thanks of the associated families, I can personally verify that "closure" has a greater meaning to those close to the victims then indicated above. In addition, I've been personally involved in the internment of remains from a war long forgotten that had a profound effect on those still living. So while the current risks in this event seem a bit extreme, there are those who value that extraordinary effort greater than those with zero skin in the game.

[megan]

wrench, your post :ok::D During the Vietnam conflict the Oz government decided they would not repatriate bodies, but inter them in a Malaysian War Grave cemetery. Families objected and had policy overturned, so bodies were returned to the home town and interred with full military protocol, church service, gun carriage, band, firing party etc As someone whose brother was a recipient of such recognition I can only endorse the thrust of your post.

[gulliBell]

And I saw his name engraved on the Roll of Honor at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra (9 RAR). We will remember them.

[212man]

wrench, your post :ok::D During the Vietnam conflict the Oz government decided they would not repatriate bodies, but inter them in a Malaysian War Grave cemetery. Families objected and had policy overturned, so bodies were returned to the home town and interred with full military protocol, church service, gun carriage, band, firing party etc As someone whose brother was a recipient of such recognition I can only endorse the thrust of your post.

Megan, I fully understand your comments and I'm very happy at the outcome but, with respect, I would suggest there is a difference between repatriating bodies already recovered versus risking the lives of several people to recover remains from a dangerous environment that will, with certainty, become less dangerous in a reasonable time. Similarly with Wrench and remains from a historical conflict - although with the other operation you mention it is not clear from where you were recovering the bodies? I have also repatriated bodies, but not from dangerous locations (well, they proved dangerous for the individuals concerned, of course!). If my desire to bury a loved one now, rather than in 6-8 weeks, resulted in the deaths of 6 soldiers, the creation of 6 new widows and maybe a dozen fatherless kids I'd probably feel pretty bad about it! It's an emotive topic that does not always bear logical scrutiny.

[wrench1]

If my desire to bury a loved one now, rather than in 6-8 weeks, resulted in the deaths of 6 soldiers, the creation of 6 new widows and maybe a dozen fatherless kids I'd probably feel pretty bad about it! It's an emotive topic that does not always bear logical scrutiny.
Then perhaps you should tell your immediate family, friends, colleagues, etc of your beliefs as that is where the "push" comes from. You're correct in that this doesn't follow "logical scrutiny" all the time, but at times it does as evident by a number of remains still sitting in a Beaver stuck on the side of mountain in Alaska from 2 years ago. In my case, none of the removal ops were at risk in isolated mountainous areas in South America. But the results were solemn. Regardless, closure to the loss of a loved one is more than a "media" op-ed as mentioned above. I've seen both sides of the equation and I think those involved this recent ops on White Island know/knew that too. We all take risks for different reasons, but sometimes that gift of closure is worth it to those who do.

[megan]

TV news here reported that the body retrieval crew on White Island determined the risk at 6% by whatever metrics they used. They deemed that acceptable, who are we sat on the sidelines to criticise. Job well done lasses and lads.