Ethiopian serious event Hong Kong

[retired guy]

This one looks very serious? How do we follow the ongoing investigation folks. I am new to this aspect.

An Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 787-8, registration ET-ASG performing flight ET-645 from Manila (Philippines) to Hong Kong (China) with 225 passengers and 10 crew, had been cleared for the ILS approach to Hong Kong's runway 25R, the aircraft was about to intercept the localizer from the south of the localizer beam. Shortly after passing the waypoint RIVER (15nm before the runway threshold), the aircraft was about 13nm short of the ruway threshold at 23:52L (15:52Z), the aircraft was observed descending through 3700 feet MSL about 1nm north of the localizer, about 0.3nm horizontally from a terrain peak rising up to 3277 feet MSL. ATC instructed the aircraft to immediately climb to 4500 feet. The aircraft subsequently performed a missed approach, positioned for another ILS approach and landed without further incident.

Hong Kong's Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA) rated the occurrence a serious incident and opened an investigation categorizing the occurrence a "loss of control in flight". The captain held an ATPL with type ratings on Boeing 777s and Boeing 787s and had accumulated 5,302 hours total and 3,082 hours flying experience on type. The US NTSB representing the state of aircraft design and manufacture and Ethiopia's Accident Investigation Bureau (EAIB) representing the state of registry and operation of the aircraft joined the investigation.

[Airbubba]

Here's the preliminary serious incident report from the AAIA's website. I doubt there will be much more until the final report is published.

[Paul852]

I recall that it's not the first time someone's come uncomfortably close to Tai Mo Shan; I can't immediately find the details, but I'm sure the regulars in the Fragrant Harbour forum can fill us in.

Interestingly, the 3rd runway at HKG is being built to the north, parallel to the existing 25R, which, prima facie, would require an ILS track even closer to the mountain wouldn't it?

[cessnapete]

Fast promotion in ET. B787 command with 2000hrs experience. UK airline requires min 2000hrs. for DEP F/O on LH or wide body.

[Airbubba]

I recall that it's not the first time someone's come uncomfortably close to Tai Mo Shan; I can't immediately find the details, but I'm sure the regulars in the Fragrant Harbour forum can fill us in.

Interestingly, the 3rd runway at HKG is being built to the north, parallel to the existing 25R, which, prima facie, would require an ILS track even closer to the mountain wouldn't it?

There have been several recent incidents with the terrain on Lantau Island, those hills all look alike to me. ;)

Some, including the one with the Atlas B-748, are discussed in this thread:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/599983-another-wrong-turn-hkg.html

[Paul852]

That's a different hill - Tai Mo Shan is the highest point in Hong Kong, and is on the mainland (i.e. not on Lantau or any other island) (but still in HK, not in mainland China).

I've often hiked on Tai Mo Shan and on a couple of occasions noticed planes on that approach seeming rather closer than usual (although not as close at that Atlas was to Lo Fu Tau)

[DaveReidUK]

First and second approaches per FR24:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/846x346/et645_4d3e3a43049feab541eebb404cbf80714edcb99b.jpg

[Ascend Charlie]

Fast promotion in ET. B787 command with 2000hrs experience

Not quite, Mr Pete:
had accumulated 5,302 hours total and 3,082 hours flying experience on type.

He might have just gained his command 300 hrs ago, with 5000 hrs total and 2700 hrs on type.

[India Four Two]

I've taken the liberty of adding he location of Tai Mo Shan to Dave's image:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/846x346/et645_4d3e3a43049feab541eebb404cbf80714edcb99b_a63edf5570106 0de6f907f758bcce2972283fac2.jpg

[LapSap]

I recall that it's not the first time someone's come uncomfortably close to Tai Mo Shan; I can't immediately find the details, but I'm sure the regulars in the Fragrant Harbour forum can fill us in.

Interestingly, the 3rd runway at HKG is being built to the north, parallel to the existing 25R, which, prima facie, would require an ILS track even closer to the mountain wouldn't it?

Yes, about 1600 metres closer. Still just slightly south. But will require 3.1 deg glide slope to miss with the required intermediate MOC.

Seems to be a recurrence of similar incidents involving 787. Recall some issue with the FMS not capturing the LOC but continuing to follow the GS down. A BIG No No on R25!

[Lomeo Rima]

It's actually 3,082 hours command time on type, which is rather worrying considering their total hours. Being a 787 captain with only 2,220 hours is the lowest I've ever heard of. Maybe it's a mistake...?

[retired guy]

If ATC had not noticed and alerted the crew, it would perhaps have been another tragedy? And for Ethiopian, a total retake on the MAX crash as it would refocus on the crew actions as a contributory cause?
To get into the situation that they were in, you have to break a few SOPs apart from the good old airmanship factor. I remember landing at Kai Tak many a time and the preparation that went into the briefings - especially for the Cheung Chau approach with the NDB Stonecutters on the shoreline of Kowloon. No ILS or even offset ILS then.
The safety record at Kai Tak was excellent, but only as a result of very high standards.
I wonder if we are treating these new aircraft with the fancy computers in a totally different way? Punch in the approach into the FMC and press LNav VNav and off we go. But a. simple error in the route, or as with Asiana at SFO, the wrong modes, can bring this all to a sticky end if the pilots are not totally in the loop.

[retired guy]

Yes, about 1600 metres closer. Still just slightly south. But will require 3.1 deg glide slope to miss with the required intermediate MOC.

Seems to be a recurrence of similar incidents involving 787. Recall some issue with the FMS not capturing the LOC but continuing to follow the GS down. A BIG No No on R25!

Hi Lap Sap
A problem as old as ILS - the GS before the LOC. We have tried to automate that out by making it impossible, but in the final analysis we have our final approach fix at say 4500 feet with a DME distance to define the GS and failure to capture the LOC should result in a GA, yes? In high terrain. Or at least an immediate level off and turn back towards the LOC?
What I am saying is that to do this, there has to be a complete failure of SOPs on board and a lack of spacial awareness does there not? Ensuring LOC capture, cross checked with whatever you have, prior to GS descent has always been apart from an SOP, a basic form of life insurance.
Had this ended badly which it seems it might have done if ATC hadn't advised them, it would have been a very bad year for Ethiopian.

[oriental flyer]

Doesn’t really matter which hunk of terrain it is , if an aircraft hits it , it’s not going to survive . Situational awareness is paramount , if in doubt climb and come around for a second go , I would rather discuss the issue with the chief pilot than my maker . Glad everyone was okay and kudos to ATC for spotting the error