Another type for Southwest Airlines?

[UltraFan]

I just read something on a.nother forum. A man is complaining that his town has no air connection to Southwest Airlines hubs, and people have to drive to Dallas, Austin or Houston to jump on Southwest planes. And it got me thinking. We've just seen how Emirates painfully realized that they can't use just two types in their fleet and need more diversity with smaller planes. MAYBE it'd be a good idea for Southwest to get another, smaller type to connect smaller airports to their hubs? Could be Embraer E2 or Airbus A220. Maybe a... what's the Bombardier CRJ called now? Mitsubishi MRJ? Maybe that?

I just can't help thinking that Southwest's 737-700s and -7s are just too big for a lot of "interesting" places, and that stepping away from their strict adherence to one type may actually bring more cash. I don't think they have their own regional subsidiary, do they?

[Check Airman]

Maybe he should move to somewhere less rural instead of expecting SWA to fly to his airport just for him.

Another option would be to take another airline...

[UltraFan]

A very rude reply that wasn't called for. Must've been a bad day.

It's not "just him", and from any developed country's point of view, very few places in the US can be considered "less rural". There are only ten cities in the USA with the population of more than one million.

And my question is not what that particular person can do to reach his destination, but whether Southwest could expand its network by flying smaller planes to "somewhere more rural".

[Sobelena]

The costs involved in integrating and operating a new type into the fleet would be costly and bring little, if any, extra revenue. Besides, isn't SW a point to point operation?

[DaveReidUK]

The costs involved in integrating and operating a new type into the fleet would be costly and bring little, if any, extra revenue. Besides, isn't SW a point to point operation?

Correct.

In fact even a network carrier would think long and hard before opening a thin regional route that would likely be only marginally profitable (if at all), whether operated by the mainline fleet or a dedicated subfleet without the corresponding economies of scale. And that's after allowing for the potential benefits of feeding its long(er) haul network, which won't apply in SWA's case.

[n5296s]

isn't SW a point to point operation
More like a point to point to point to point to point operation. It's one of life's great mysteries why SW has so many multi-stop flights. It would be different if they were stops along some kind of sensible route, like bus stops, or the old days of a LAX-SFO flight (in a DC3) that would stop at a handful of airports along the way. But they operate things like SNA-SJC-LAS - nobody in their right mind would fly from SNA to LAS via SJC, when there are dozens of direct flights a day. It also leads to the odd phenomenon (in my personal experience) of having two flights in the air with the same flight number, when an earlier sector gets delayed and they put on a substitute aircraft.

[Sobelena]

I was alluding to whether they do connections (with baggage transfers) as such? Most LoCos don't.

[Check Airman]

A very rude reply that wasn't called for. Must've been a bad day.

It's not "just him", and from any developed country's point of view, very few places in the US can be considered "less rural". There are only ten cities in the USA with the population of more than one million.

And my question is not what that particular person can do to reach his destination, but whether Southwest could expand its network by flying smaller planes to "somewhere more rural".

I’m not sure how familiar with the US you are, but there are LOTS of places that would be considered rural. I suspect you haven’t heard of them though, because they’re well, rural.

My point is that you can’t live in a rural region and expect the same level of service afforded to urban centres. There are government subsidies where airlines do provide service though. It’s called the Essential Air Service program (or something along those lines).

Unless he can convince the government to fund the cost SWA would incur for a new type, he’s SOL.

[Beamr]

It's not "just him", and from any developed country's point of view, very few places in the US can be considered "less rural". There are only ten cities in the USA with the population of more than one million.





I’m not sure how familiar with the US you are, but there are LOTS of places that would be considered rural.


Sorry to intervene a perfect start for a debate based on misunderstanding, but aren't these the same thing in different wording...

[Paul852]

Yes they are - trust a Finn(?) to have a better grasp of English than an American! :D

[UltraFan]

Sorry to intervene a perfect start for a debate based on misunderstanding, but aren't these the same thing in different wording...

They are. I just didn't want to upset Check Airman further by pointing it out and kept my fingers idle. Let's wait for him to wake up, eat his rural eggs with his rural bacon and see if he's in a more rural-appreciative mood today. :)

[Torquelink]

You may get your wish:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/southwest-a-stalwart-boeing-737-max-customer-eyes-other-jets/ (https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/southwest-a-stalwart-boeing-737-max-customer-eyes-other-jets/)

[SeenItAll]

There are only ten cities in the USA with the population of more than one million.

That may be true if you look only at the population within the central city limits, but on a metropolitan area basis, there are dozens and dozens of metropolitan areas with greater than 1 million people. For example, the population within the city limits of Washington, DC is only about 700,000 -- but its metropolitan area exceeds 5 million.

[Check Airman]

Sorry to intervene a perfect start for a debate based on misunderstanding, but aren't these the same thing in different wording...

Maybe I misunderstood what UltraFan was trying to say. The bolded part of his post suggests that most of the US population lives in urban centres. I’m almost positive that isn’t true. Lots of people live in places where there’s no city for miles in any direction.

[flynerd]

I think they would need to establish a subsidiary airline to do sought after - LocalRural Airlines.
Separate crews, separate strategy, separate equipment. Never going to happen.

[OldnGrounded]

Maybe I misunderstood what UltraFan was trying to say. The bolded part of his post suggests that most of the US population lives in urban centres. I’m almost positive that isn’t true. Lots of people live in places where there’s no city for miles in any direction.

Actually, almost 80% of Americans live in urban settings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/12/18/americans-say-theres-not-much-appeal-big-city-living-why-do-so-many-us-live-there/

[Check Airman]

Actually, almost 80% of Americans live in urban settings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/12/18/americans-say-theres-not-much-appeal-big-city-living-why-do-so-many-us-live-there/

I stand corrected. I wouldn’t have guessed so though. My point however, is that the person in question wants big city service (SWA serves most or all big cities), he’ll need to go to a big city.

[CargoOne]

MAYBE it'd be a good idea for Southwest to get another, smaller type to connect smaller airports to their hubs? Could be Embraer E2 or Airbus A220.

You may realise that A220 is actually the same seat capacity aircraft as 737-700. Even the smaller -100 model is not far.

[keesje]

- A220-300 has similar seat capacity as 737-7,
- The longer A220-300 has more comfortable wider seats, suiting its public
- An A220-300 weighs 4-5t less than a 737-7
- A220 have bigger, quieter, savier US build engines
- A220s are build in the USA
- 500 737-700s need to be replaced starting soon, many have high cycles
- nobody was buying 737-7s, even before the crashes
- even if Boeing offers an FSA in 2028 it will be designed around a 200 seater

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x865/b8bb2ecded34736d622936a647d12723bcb7a075_jpeg_7cb45d5c14101c 4eeaf5aeff33511ab6a9238e70.jpg
https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/infiniteflight/original/3X/b/8/b8bb2ecded34736d622936a647d12723bcb7a075.jpeg

[misd-agin]

Equal distance from DAL, AUS, and IAH is about a 2 hr drive to all three airports. Kosse, TX is between 1:55 and 2:10 to all 3 airports. I'm not sure people are aware of how uninhabited the western U.S. states can be. The overall population density, including the significant impact of SoCal, is about 1/3 Europe's population density. Wyoming has 6% of Europe's average population density. Overall the U.S. west has the population density of Norway. Compared to the larger European countries the density of the western U.S. is 5-10%. And individual states can be misleading - Nevada is ranked as average. But 73% live in Las Vegas. The northern part of the state is barren.

[b1lanc]

At some point, SW will have to consider a new aircraft type in order to maintain their existing route structure, maybe sooner vice later given the Max. I doubt there will be a 737-SuperMax or any other derivative. A new aircraft type or two is inevitable.

[MarkerInbound]

There are only ten cities in the USA with the population of more than one million.

That may be true if you look only at the population within the central city limits, but on a metropolitan area basis, there are dozens and dozens of metropolitan areas with greater than 1 million people. For example, the population within the city limits of Washington, DC is only about 700,000 -- but its metropolitan area exceeds 5 million.

There are 53 Metropolitan Statistical Areas in the USA with a population over 1 million in 2018. SW flies to 52 of them. Poor Cincinnati just can’t get any love.

[DaveReidUK]

At some point, SW will have to consider a new aircraft type in order to maintain their existing route structure, maybe sooner vice later given the Max. I doubt there will be a 737-SuperMax or any other derivative. A new aircraft type or two is inevitable.

Notwithstanding the thread title, it's not about SWA's replacement for the 737-700, but about adding a second, smaller-gauge type to the fleet to serve thin routes. The consensus appears to be that that's not about to happen.

[b1lanc]

Notwithstanding the thread title, it's not about SWA's replacement for the 737-700, but about adding a second, smaller-gauge type to the fleet to serve thin routes. The consensus appears to be that that's not about to happen.

Point being, reliance on one manufacturer is hurting a couple of airlines. Though replacement for the 700 may not be the immediate need, pickle fork impact on maintenance and ops bottom line notwithstanding, beginning the process of adding a second type may be a prudent move in any case. If you look at their route map, their coverage in north central/western US is non-existent - mostly service by Alaska, United, etc. with regionals that charge just as high a price as their namesake partners. A220 may not be the right answer, but nothing coming out of Boeing in the near future.

[cxorcist]

Clearly, another type doesn’t work well within the SWA model. They acquired many 717s from AirTran which both Delta and Hawaiian Airlines operate profitably. They clearly didn’t find value there. I find it highly unlikely that SWA will order A220-100 or -300. I think it’s far more likely that SWA orders Max10 or perhaps a Boeing NMA for growth.

[b1lanc]

Clearly, another type doesn’t work well within the SWA model. They acquired many 717s from AirTran which both Delta and Hawaiian Airlines operate profitably. They clearly didn’t find value there. I find it highly unlikely that SWA will order A220-100 or -300. I think it’s far more likely that SWA orders Max10 or perhaps a Boeing NMA for growth.


Big difference between inheriting used 717s and purchasing a new type. Ultimately, what has worked for SW for decades will no longer be airworthy. Whatever their model may have little bearing on what it will be 20 years from now and that will be defined by what A & B do or do not produce. I'd agree with the NMA except nothing is guaranteed with B now, let alone a 143 pax version.

[West Coast]

with regionals that charge just as high a price as their namesake partners.

Point of order, other than a very few routes not sanctioned by major partners, regionals don’t set ticket prices.

[Junkflyer]

SWA business model is about simplicity.
Single type means lower training costs for pilots and mechanics as well as cost savings on parts. A broken airplane is replaced by a similar spare, seats are all the same.
They have plenty of growth, now flying to the Hawaiian islands.
I doubt they will change their model unless they have no other choice.

[Bend alot]

Point of order, other than a very few routes not sanctioned by major partners, regionals don’t set ticket prices.
I would be very interested to know, who sets the ticket prices then?

I expect that the routes "sanctioned" by major partners are more a contract of a service with a minimum of "x" passenger capability for a fixed price - certainly not a ticket price. The aircraft type and capacity is then up to the regional operator/airline to make that fixed price work, and there are vast options there on aircraft to use such as age, max seating, cargo area and quality of service to work with.

[Bend alot]

SWA business model is about simplicity.
Single type means lower training costs for pilots and mechanics as well as cost savings on parts. A broken airplane is replaced by a similar spare, seats are all the same.
They have plenty of growth, now flying to the Hawaiian islands.
I doubt they will change their model unless they have no other choice.
You see a new 737 beyond the MAX, if they do not start thinking about a replacement/s now it will be too late.
If there is another MAX stabiliser trim issue (or NG) they will be grounded again and possibly forever - the 737 will then be history and so will SWA.

SWA will had had this discussion at the Board level. It will be bonuses against long term vision/and insurance - guess what will win.

[Check Airman]

I would be very interested to know, who sets the ticket prices then?

I expect that the routes "sanctioned" by major partners are more a contract of a service with a minimum of "x" passenger capability for a fixed price - certainly not a ticket price. The aircraft type and capacity is then up to the regional operator/airline to make that fixed price work, and there are vast options there on aircraft to use such as age, max seating, cargo area and quality of service to work with.

The major sets the price. You buy a ticket at Major.com from Europe to a small town in the US. You fly a 777 to a hub, then hop on to Major Connect to the smaller town. The Express carrier must operate the aircraft type specified in the agreement.

[CargoOne]

Equal distance from DAL, AUS, and IAH is about a 2 hr drive to all three airports. Kosse, TX is between 1:55 and 2:10 to all 3 airports. I'm not sure people are aware of how uninhabited the western U.S. states can be.

Not sure if I got your point right but in Europe, living in megapolis city can still easily take you 1,5-2 hours drive through the traffic to airport. There are numerous areas in Central/Western Europe where the nearest airport served by airline(s) is 2-3 hours away in an average traffic.

[misd-agin]

Not sure if I got your point right but in Europe, living in megapolis city can still easily take you 1,5-2 hours drive through the traffic to airport. There are numerous areas in Central/Western Europe where the nearest airport served by airline(s) is 2-3 hours away in an average traffic.

The OP commented about a customer complaining that he had to drive 2 hrs to get to an airport served by SW. If his local population density supported more travel the market would respond.

If that customer lived in the western U.S. he might have a 3.5 hr drive to a one city served by mainline aircraft. Out west, if he's willing to fly on regional jets he'd have at least two options within 3.5 hrs. If he's willing to fly on single engine commuters he'd have more options. The customer's complaint was about the distance to find a population density that supports larger aircraft. Would he be the first to complain about the traffic density that comes with the population needed to support larger aircraft and more frequent service? If it doesn't support at least 3-4 flights a day SW isn't interested. In the eastern U.S., if you lived in the right location, you could have access to five hubs within 2 hours because of the population density.

With traffic an hour drive into any major city can take 2 hours or longer. That's true in Europe, the U.S., Asia, or S. America.

[West Coast]

I would be very interested to know, who sets the ticket prices then?

I expect that the routes "sanctioned" by major partners are more a contract of a service with a minimum of "x" passenger capability for a fixed price - certainly not a ticket price. The aircraft type and capacity is then up to the regional operator/airline to make that fixed price work, and there are vast options there on aircraft to use such as age, max seating, cargo area and quality of service to work with.


In the US its set by the partner whose paint job is on the side of the aircraft. Regional carriers are contracted lift. They’re not stand alone carriers with their own ticketing/reservation system. Type/capacity is largely a function of scope and CPA.

[keesje]

Clearly, another type doesn’t work well within the SWA model. They acquired many 717s from AirTran which both Delta and Hawaiian Airlines operate profitably. They clearly didn’t find value there. I find it highly unlikely that SWA will order A220-100 or -300. I think it’s far more likely that SWA orders Max10 or perhaps a Boeing NMA for growth.

It seem a bit inconsistent. SWA doesn't work well with another type, or the much larger NMA is likely. You can't have both ;)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/998x426/leeham_20news_20nma_20concept_202019_20hl_fea282ea0aface61e7 6d2df01d172a55c57785da.jpg

[SamYeager]

It seem a bit inconsistent. SWA doesn't work well with another type, or the much larger NMA is likely. You can't have both ;)


They will however both have yokes and be assembled in the US by a US owned company called Boeing assuming the NMA ever sees the light of day.....

[UltraFan]

Don't we have a.nother forum for NMA, NSA, FSA, and all other Boeing abbreviated future planes, where you can argue for months about their technical specs' suitability for certain airlines, and where noone cares that we know absolutely nothing about those programs' contents, intentions or existence?