T-38 Fatal Mishap Vance AFB Oklahoma

[Airbubba]

Sounds like possibly a mid-air.

Two airmen killed in accident during training mission at Vance Air Force BasePosted 10:53 am, November 21, 2019, by KFOR-TV and K. Querry (https://kfor.com/author/kforkimberlyquerry/), Updated at 11:40AM, November 21, 2019
ENID, Okla. (KFOR) – Authorities at an Air Force base in Enid are investigating a crash involving two aircraft during a training mission.

Officials with Vance Air Force Base say two Air Force T-38 Talons were involved in a “mishap” on Thursday morning.

A post by the base says the aircraft were performing a routine training mission and there were two people on board each aircraft.
“Vance emergency response personnel are on scene to treat casualties and assist in recovery efforts,” the post read.

A short time later, authorities with Vance Air Force Base announced that two airmen were killed in the crash. The identities of the deceased are being withheld until their families are notified.




https://kfor.com/2019/11/21/two-aircraft-involved-in-accident-during-training-mission-at-vance-air-force-base/



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x1099/ej6eomyw4aei4sl_9d918f2c21e1b82d3bc7d64d1126c4ba9c6626d4.jpg

[Green Flash]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31146/pair-of-u-s-air-force-t-38-talon-jet-trainers-involved-in-fatal-mishap-in-oklahoma

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA-aNLkl5vo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKWJW7SMLqE

Mishap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKWJW7SMLqEMishap) was during formation landing

[Airbubba]

Frame captures from the video linked above, looks like the jets were landing on runway 35 Center.



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1823x1022/vance_5_6f7839d42622b956f476061a7e16df1b812b2f5f.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1818x1028/vance_4_e66304fd2f68e885ed3392fda8bf9285e5d9cd03.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1826x1006/vance_1_b5bc094ba00244aaf15d1e77dec0b6289a8b7037.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1828x1010/vance_2_c8bd4bf386424077568b3443ecdc9b3bfe07f575.jpg

[OK465]

I taught formation landings, both day and night, from the backseat of an F-100F for a number of years. I was of the opinion that it was the one maneuver that required the absolute most supervisory attention from the backseat, particularly at night. Students were generally subject to creating problems when they quit flying formation all the way to touchdown, which was a somewhat common response as you crossed the threshold. (Night formation landing currency requirements were eventually done away with.)

Then there was always the concern about some kind of hardover prior to gaining nose-tail separation on the rollout.

Then with only single-seat A-7Ds during my time, leading a B course student on their first formation landing was always a time to reflect.....and be ready to push it up and get out of the way. :eek:

[The Sultan]

Why is a formation landing ever needed? Two dead for no operational reason.

[gums]

Salute!

Agreed, Deliverance. I had to get a Vietnamese student down in his A-37B due to weather and they did not allow them to fly solo instruments at the time. The troop was an old A-1 pilot and could fly great formation. So simple. And as Okie says he flew all the way to touchdown. And don't forget those times when the wingie has lost instruments, and, and ..... the beat goes on.

My Sluf experience was just as Okie described. Ditto for the Viper. My first wing landing in the Viper was in an "A", but we used the family model most of the time .

Biggest time for mishap is about 5 seconds after touch, especially if wingie touches down later than lead and there's a crosswind. And my understanding is that Vance has crosswinds a fair share of days.

So here's a nickel on the grass!

Gums sends...

[Two's in]

Why is a formation landing ever needed? Two dead for no operational reason.


I'm sure for one of those Unicorn moments, a formation approach to the threshold might get a fellow aviator lined up with a good shot at landing, but to expand on Sultan's point - the "safety" pilot can then overshoot and come around for a far more relaxed full stop. An actual formation landing seems unnecessary.

[OK465]

An actual formation landing seems unnecessary.

Possibly, until you find yourself in a situation where fuel state and deteriorating wx severely limit your options.

In fact, the maneuver itself is no more difficult, nor significantly more risky than any other fighter maneuver for an experienced fighter pilot. C course (experienced) trainees generally did their first one in a single seater, as gums pointed out, even with two-seaters available....just a routine event done last on the task list of a particular syllabus mission. The skill may not be easily mastered, but once you get it....you got it, no reason not to have it.

The question here may or may not be the required IP supervision in play here to assure that the naturally uneasy wide-eyed student gets that experience, not the difficulty of, nor the rationale for doing the maneuver. Of course, not every student is the right fit for fighter aircraft. This is UPT, the cherry....everything is new....and scary.

I've dropped wingman off underneath on snow covered runways and come back around for a 'relaxed' landing when possible. Without a doubt the preferable option....if available. :)

[BVRAAM]

Why is a formation landing ever needed? Two dead for no operational reason.


It's better to have something and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Large strike packages, such as those seen in Desert Storm, Allied Force and Iraqi Freedom, are dependent on formation landings. It takes ages to get dozens of jets back on the ground, all of which approaching fuel critical states - if they aren't already there. Simple mathematics will tell you that doubling up is faster.
You're being insensitive.

[orca]

I don’t think that’s true. If you want to get a four ball on the deck quickly in good weather then a break is probably way more fuel efficient than splitting for two pairs approaches. Easier too. In poor weather you’re probably right.

However - the pairs landing is important for all the other reasons already stated.

[sharpend]

Why is a formation landing ever needed? Two dead for no operational reason.

Sometimes one needs to get a number of jets on the ground as quickly as possible. This way you get 2 for 1.

[sharpend]

I don’t think that’s true. If you want to get a four ball on the deck quickly in good weather then a break is probably way more fuel efficient than splitting for two pairs approaches. Easier too. In poor weather you’re probably right.

However - the pairs landing is important for all the other reasons already stated.

Correct, if the weather is VFR.

[Just This Once...]

In fact, the maneuver itself is no more difficult, nor significantly more risky than any other fighter maneuver for an experienced fighter pilot. C course (experienced) trainees generally did their first one in a single seater, as gums pointed out, even with two-seaters available...

Seems to be a running theme across very different fleets - being there and coping.

For whatever reason the first pairs landing we did on large multi-engine aircraft was at night and under goggles. On the very rare occasions when we tried it during the day it seemed a little more tense!

[OK465]

For whatever reason the first pairs landing we did on large multi-engine aircraft....

That sounds interesting, challenging....and story worthy. :eek: Just curious, what type?

(To me, on the mil side an F-4 was a large multi-engine aircraft. :})