L3 Harris Delays [Archive]

BAW747

21st Nov 2019, 08:33

parkfell

22nd Nov 2019, 15:58

If you have visited L3, was that a question you asked of the staff and customers you met?

Due diligence? As with any establishment you intend to spent a serious amount of money ?
Read the contract carefully with particular reference to any concerns.
CAVEAT EMPTOR

Do not take a lack of response as a positive statement.

harveyst

25th Nov 2019, 19:32

CAVEAT EMPTOR - you love that one parkfell 😂

Gonewiththewallet

25th Nov 2019, 22:30

parkfell

26th Nov 2019, 11:04

CAVEAT EMPTOR - you love that one parkfell ��

Whilst this quote might well be a ‘tongue in cheek’ remark, it is important that the message is heard loud and clear.
As training is expensive, you the customer need to get it right for you first time. It is not a dress rehearsal.

Unfortunately Pprune is full of tails of woe where the unwary have been ripped off.
Going back in time in the UK: TRENT, CABAIR (mark 2), to name but two who conducted professional training which ceased abruptly. This list is not exhaustive.

So I make no apology for reinforcing the fundamental message that you must spend your hard earned money wisely. If it looks too good to be true, then probably it is.
Basic fraud advice is mentioned generally in the media.
Listen to MONEYBOX on radio 4 to learn just what can happen to victims.

If it keeps junior birdmen alert and safer, prevents the gullible and vulnerable from making poor choices then it is clearly worthwhile?

harveyst

26th Nov 2019, 17:24

Fully agree parkfell, and thanks for taking the comment in the way it was intended. Lots of very sensitive people on here.

Cadet764

27th Nov 2019, 00:48

Not sure on the current delays between applying and ground school but being delayed at that stage is probably the most convenient as you can keep your job etc. and work until it starts. As a white tail you're almost definitely going to be delayed at least 2 months between ground school and basic flying stage. There are some courses that have been delayed as much as 6 months between ground school and flying. I'm not too sure about delays between basic and advanced flying stage, it seems as though these have been kept relatively minimal - probably as you're correct that they are sending some of their cadet to Leading Edge for parts of training.
When it comes to being booked in for flights the priority are the airline funded cadets (Royal Brunei, Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay, Oman Air, Air France), followed by tagged cadets (easyJet, BA, Wizzair) and then white tail cadets, this combined with weather (especially in New Zealand and the UK) means that at times as a white tail you're only going to fly once a week or once every two weeks.

Gonewiththewallet

29th Nov 2019, 13:50

Delays between stages have been 11 months for one of the cadets I spoke to. I think its cheaper and better to take hold of your training yourself rather than join a waiting list. I think only do an integrated course if your on a scheme.

SPDBRD1

30th Nov 2019, 10:57

They are not rumours, I have spoken with cadets who are currently there and delays are up to 18 months!

If you cause a fuss they can make them longer. They pay 'compensation' depending how long you are delayed of £25 once you are delayed 6 months, 9 months £50 and 1 year £75 a week more or less, some have complained and some have got a 'free' type rating or one half price for those on airline schemes.

If your 'tagged' to an airline your delays will be shorter, if your not your delays will be the longest guaranteed!

The delays are likely to continue for some years to come, the smart thing to do would be to stay clear, do your PPL at your local flying club then head over to Europe for CPL etc and get it done in a few months at 33% of the cost!

Or if your certain you want a big player like that, CAE seems to be more reputable and I have not heard anything about delays and are a similar price.

So you are partly right, but your figures are wrong. We get £35 per week for up to 12 weeks, £65 per week for between 13 and 20 weeks, and £105 per week above 21 weeks. Additionally, we get £5,000 at the end of training for delays of up to 30 weeks, £10,000 for up to 40 weeks, and free type rating of our choice for above. I've personally not heard of anyone of 18months, longest i've heard of is 12months which is why they brought in the type rating package. Delays have reduced massively with the opening of new centres and some outsourcing, with most people seeing around 4-5 months. Also, saying that if you make a fuss they will delay you more is wrong as that would cost L3 more money.

I'd do some very quick research if i were you on here. Its not hard to find information about CAE also having issues such as massive delays between offer and starting because they no longer have capacity in ground school. There is a thread on here about 40 easyjet ATPL's who were dropped because of it, and i'm also aware of 120+ Indigo airline cadets who had to be outsourced from CAE for both ground school and flight instruction this year alone.

Unfortunately, the flight training industry is facing a massive issue on 2 fronts. The first is a reduction in the number of available instructors due to many reaching the retirement age, many going to join airlines and new cadets going straight to airlines and not building hours as instructors. The second is the massive increase in the number of people wanting to be pilots.

Delays are not an L3 issue only. There are delays across the industry at the big flight schools. The big advantage that the likes of L3/CAE give you are employment. Yes, it is a goodish market at the moment and i know there are those who are "anti-integrated" and will say you have no problem getting a job once qualified. However, integrated whitetail students at L3 are getting offers of employment before they have even finished the course. I've seen offers to students from BA, Air France, Easyjet, Flybe, Sun Express, Royal Brunei and Air Astana around 3/4 months from the end of training, so students are walking into jobs just weeks after graduation.

RyanPerry320

2nd Dec 2019, 20:28

However, integrated whitetail students at L3 are getting offers of employment before they have even finished the course. I've seen offers to students from BA, Air France, Easyjet, Flybe, Sun Express, Royal Brunei and Air Astana around 3/4 months from the end of training, so students are walking into jobs just weeks after graduation.

Hello
Is this still the case even with airlines like Thomas Cook collapsing?
Surely this means airlines are more likely to go to the more experienced pilots rather than fresh cadets?

Rottweiler22

3rd Dec 2019, 07:13

Hello
Is this still the case even with airlines like Thomas Cook collapsing?
Surely this means airlines are more likely to go to the more experienced pilots rather than fresh cadets?

There’ve definitely been some changes in airlines’ recruitment habits since Thomas Cook went under, yes. The airline I work for started a cadet scheme with a big school in the summer, and took on a batch of cadets. A week after TCX went under, those who hadn’t started a type rating yet had their job offers withdrawn.

On the flyBe thread too, it appears newly qualified pilots are being flat-out rejected at the application stage. I’m assuming because flyBe have the same bases as TCX, they have plenty of experienced people applying in order to keep their home base.

Overall, I’d definitely say it’s more challenging for a cadet to find a job after the demise of Thomas Cook.

I was always told that cadet schemes with premium-priced type ratings will always soldier on in the big schools. The likes of CAE/L3 offer discounted rates to airlines for their sims, providing the airline has a cadet scheme with their school. Everyone’s a winner. The schools get to advertise in their glossy brochures about their “airline connections”, bringing more people through the doors. They also make a fair bit of money selling type ratings. The airlines are happy because they get a cadet pilot and don’t pay a penny for a type rating, plus cheap sim slots for the rest of their crews. The cadet gets their job. That’s why I think these sort of schemes will never end in the big schools. They’re too lucrative. Regardless of the recruitment environment.

So if you’re at a big school, there’ll always be a chance to dip your bread.

Alex Whittingham

3rd Dec 2019, 09:40

Whilst this is true, there are other aspects to consider. I would not be surprised to discover that CTC was bought by L3 not for its flying training business but for the type rating business. The flying training side looks like a huge company to us mortals down at the bottom of the food chain but to L3 Harris it is quite likely it's just a 'thing they acquired' along with the sims which if it is profitable will just be allowed to carry on, hardly noticed by the main board. Were it to make significant losses, however, the eye of Sauron might fall upon it and a decision may be taken to dispose of it. Is an MBO on the cards?

CAValright

8th Dec 2019, 14:48

Hi folks.

Looking at joining L3’s Integrated ATPL course, starting next year - however - I have hears *rumours* that there are significant delays between applying and starting ground school, and ground school to Foundation flight training.

Also, is it true that Tagged cadets on airline schemes are given priority, so all those who are not tagged, are pushed to the back of the line?

I also hear they are sending cadets to Leading Edge, at Oxford, to complete their CPL IR ?

Can any current L3 Cadets, or people in the know please inform as to the updated situation? This makes financial planning very difficult, and the unknown as to when you will start.

Thanks.

I was offered start dates pretty quickly after passing selection, but that was over a year ago so maybe it's changed now. I also found that ground school ran very well and stayed on schedule. It's at the end of ground school when the delays start to creep in both before and during the basic flying phase i.e. up to a few flights before the CPL test.

The delays are variable. My basic flying phase started a bit late and took a few months longer than it should have, however there are other cadets who've had it WAY worse than me. It is likely that there's some desire to give airline cadets special treatment, but I'm whitetail and personally I've found myself scheduled to fly pretty frequently compared to cadets on airline schemes. A lot of it is also down to the weather especially at this time of year. My best guess at my finish date is about 6 months behind schedule, which is an extra 6 months of living allowance from my parents that I'm going to have to pay back at some point.

It is true that cadets are being sent to Leading Edge for IR as well as to AFTA in Ireland, plus Etihad Aviation Training in the UAE for the pre-CPL phase. They claim that rigorous auditing and standardisation ensures that these providers are up to L3's high standards, and I'm sure they are. It does make you wonder though how they can claim to provide world-leading training and charge a premium for it but then effectively admit that the training is just as good at another provider.

I think the majority of instructors were around back in the CTC days and the standards of training are excellent. I believe the problems started when L3 took over and began parachuting people into management positions when they didn't have proper experience of the industry. They also suffered a squeeze in capacity when Phoenix closed down and, I guess wanting to keep the money coming in, were too slow to react and reduce their intake of cadets.

In terms of my general experience, I honestly have no doubt in my mind that L3 are the most incompetent company I have ever had to deal with. At all levels on the admin/management side I find the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing, and major issues are dealt with reactively while those of us at the bottom are left thinking "how on earth did you not know about this before?" I know of a few cadets who decided to move to other providers, and I seriously considered it myself when I wasn't so far along with the training. I strongly suggest you consider saving a chunk of money and frustration by looking at a different provider.

Bego

9th Dec 2019, 21:51

Hi CAV !

I must post here since my private message quota of ONE was occupied... Feel free to answer via private message if you are not comfortable with writing publicly.

I have passed L3's tests a few weeks ago and will start my training soon. Now I am aware of the issues you pointed out in your post, and I am aware that I'd better get prepared for some delay. I also have some faith, albeit limited, in what issues the new payment instalement may be able to address, with L3 having a quite substantial cash flow coming in in the next few months.
Now for informational purposes, would you mind disclosing your flight training location? I know the issues are not evenly distribuited and some flight training centers tend to be better structured than others.
Thank you for the clarity you brought to the forum, especially for those who don't have any acquaintances within L3.

Most importantly, enjoy the flying !

Gordon Bennet

10th Dec 2019, 07:00

Hmmmm, with those kind of delays and the money involved I would not accept delays of any kind. Who is the cutomer here?

Wiith such courses, you get no paperwork at all until you finish the course.

Alex Whittingham

10th Dec 2019, 09:43

"L3 having a quite substantial cash flow coming in in the next few months". Did they tell you that? Playing the devil's advocate, how does restructuring the stage payment scheme to benefit the customer (which is what I assume you are saying) provide better cash flow for the company? It does the opposite. And how also does laying off your training committments to other ATOs do anything other than reduce your profit while simultaneously enabling your competitors?

Bego

10th Dec 2019, 10:23

They undeniably have issues at some training locations.
Namely, some being hard to provide with skilled FIs because they are in a remote location, others facing low A/C availability. You also have to factor in that they now have two fleets: one being Diamond and the other being the firsts out of 240 Pipers slowly joining in.
Now, I personally think these issues could be (temporarily!) solved with money. And let's just hope management will pull off a long term viable strategy for every aspect of their business, among which type rating and flight training. In the meantime, it indeed puts them in the precarious situation you just described.

About the cash flow, I have regularly checked their website for the past 2 years (alongside other ATOs) and over the course of this summer, the payment installment was revised. Previously it was 5000 upon signature, 5700 one month before start date, and 5300 each month from the 5th month onwards. And a large payment right before flight training. Now, it is 9000 upon signature and a steady 5000 per month until the 16th month.
In my understanding, they will get a substantially larger cash flow for the next 6 months or so.

Alex Whittingham

10th Dec 2019, 20:56

Ah I understand, they have changed the payment schedule to benefit themselves. Time for me to add to Parkfell's "caveat emptor". Restructuring to get more payment in early, inexplicably laying off revenue to competitors, interesting accounting practices.... president of L3 CTS moved sideways .... the last of the old CTC managers gone.....there is some sort of change coming.

Christopher Robin

11th Dec 2019, 16:33

Bego,

Good luck to you, you are going to need it.

parkfell

12th Dec 2019, 12:42

Gonewiththewallet

12th Dec 2019, 21:20

As a student pilot I would stay clear of any UK Aviation Commercial Schools whether integrated or modular, I should know as I worked at one for 2 years while I did my licence (it was run by complete criminals, just sucking money out of people) who wanted to do their commercial pilots licence and they knew very well as soon as your in for 5k your in for the full amount and you are game for whatever they want to do and they can extract more money out of you and you wont complain. Bit like some airlines as well btw.....

People think the UK is the best for many things, employment rights etc are miles behind many other countries in the UK. I think particularly in aviation the standard is very poor in commerical schools, German and Dutch schools dont pull the kind of stuff you read out about here.

Lots of really nice flying clubs in the UK where you should do your PPL, hour building and take your friends and family up ands how them your flying skills and make it a nice day out. Then get yourself on a fixed price all in course somewhere in Europe where you can crack on with it without any distractions.

In 99% of cases you will save time and money, I wish I had done it!

Cistor

14th Dec 2019, 07:52

Absolutely agreed. Greed is the only motivation in any integrated school it seems. People don't realise this fact and as you've well explained are put in a situation of weakness where they've already coughed huge amounts of money in advance. Always wondered why CAA or EASA don't even have a word to say. Oh sure, it is completely "legal"...

CAValright

20th Dec 2019, 10:38

I would rather not reveal my training location, however it is correct that the delays are not evenly distributed, with Bournemouth in general being the worst. A year or so ago, with Bournemouth already running over capacity, they took on a contract from the RAF to provide basic training there. Of course this brings in more money for the company, but in my mind doing this was inexcusable given the fact that L3 cadets i.e. their customers are paying nearly £100k and were already facing delays before the company decided to squeeze its capacity still further. It just goes to show what the priorities really are.

Others here are right to point out the problems with integrated providers, and with hindsight I probably should have done what Gonewiththewallet suggested above. You pay a bunch of money but have nothing to show for it i.e. no flying qualification until the end of the course (no PPL along the way like with modular). This effectively means that you're stuck in their pocket until you get the fATPL at the end, however long that takes. A few people I know did jump ship but that's a lot of upheaval.

The delay payments we get are welcome but nothing like what I'd be earning in a job if I'd finished on time. Other than that we just get hollow corporate apologies and promises that they are working to reduce the delays, meanwhile day to day nothing changes and they hide behind the 'subject to change' clause safe in the knowledge that we're all on the hook for £100k.

Total Pressure

23rd Dec 2019, 21:12

2nd hand info but a lot of people I've talked to have had numerous delays during training, regularly up to 6 months total during the course of waiting. L3 are trying to reduce delays, but still taking large intakes of new cadets regularly when the training pipeline is bursting.

I'd say if you can get in on a scheme tagged to an airline, go for it. If not, CAE might be a better option.

Cash flow isn't an issue for L3, it's a gigantic company with deep pockets and they are investing heavily since taking over CTC, ramping up training all over the place.

It was actually the flight school side of CTC that L3 wanted. They had sim centres all over the place, but wanted to be able to offer everything from first flight all the way to airline level. Let's hope things eventually settle.

ZFT

24th Dec 2019, 05:02

It was actually the flight school side of CTC that L3 wanted. They had sim centres all over the place, but wanted to be able to offer everything from first flight all the way to airline level. Let's hope things eventually settle.

May I disagree. When L3 acquired CTC they didn't operate any civil sim centres

1999PALACE

28th Dec 2019, 19:22

I have a friend in CAE who's in Phoenix and he has a 6 month delay on flying, hes flown 5 times since September when he started, He said his buddy in L3 has the same delay also. As a result, my friend is thinking of dropping out and doing a modular at Jerez, or somewhere in the UK. Having passed the stage 3 my self not long ago.

Personally, I don't think It would be viable to stay an extra 6 months because of the living costs an all (my parents are remortgaging the house, so I don't come from a particularly wealthy background but the support is really there) so I'm going to do my medical and do the fast track modular course at Aeros in Gloucester airport. It's £75k (a bit cheaper) you get the same licence and you get virtually the same support with airline interviews. Those who graduate get jobs within a year at various companies, BA, Ryanair, EasyJet and FlyBe just to name a few. Plus the living coats in Cheltenham/Gloucester are quite reasonable (in terms of a house share).

TL;DR- Yes there's a six month delay. It put me off so i'm doing modular instead.

1999PALACE

28th Dec 2019, 19:24

Gonewiththewallet

31st Dec 2019, 04:32

18 months is the worst I have heard but upto a year is not uncommon.

Modular is good as you can take control of it yourself, though the general consensus would be to stay away from Aeros, they have a bad repuation for fleecing students once you are signed up and paid deposits.

I can guarantee that you wont get it for anywhere near 75k! That's the hook price, do your PPL in the UK, get your exams and get a fixed priced school in Europe, safe your time and money for when applying for jobs and need some sim practice etc.

parkfell

23rd Apr 2020, 13:03

Brave New World once the C-19 is under control either by vaccine or other mitigating techniques, and the offers which will be made to entice newcomers to the party in the next 12 months.
DUE DILIGENCE & CAVEAT EMPTOR must be at the forefront of any prospective customer.

Just how FORCE MAJEURE clauses will operate for those already training might prove interesting. Delays will eventually evaporate and a semi arid desert will occur.

planesandthings

24th Apr 2020, 00:59

Quite frankly, anyone signing the dotted line now blindly planning to start flying training in the next two months or so on an intergrated course isn't fit to be flying an aircraft, this should be one of the easiest decisions to make with the information available.
There are enough poor souls within the training system currently who are facing eye-watering delays and increased living costs, L3 did not repatriate many of it's cadets despite UK Government advice as it was too expensive for the school to do so, add on top of that some EasyJet MPL graduates amongst others going through the type rating are having their training cancelled and contracts terminated shows the wheels are coming off the system properly, as for whitetails or new graduates, you have my upmost sympathy, but use this time to get an idea of a second career to at least see out what will be a prolonged period.

Hold on folks, it will end and improve, but there's going to be a lot of suffering first.

parkfell

22nd May 2020, 14:48

Is there any news when L3 will resume training?

Spanish lockdown is being eased from Monday 25 May with flying schools slowly and carefully starting back.

Alex Whittingham

22nd May 2020, 15:50

There have been several posts on facebook from L3 students on courses in Portugal who have had their training contracts 'cancelled' by L3 since the COVID-19 crisis started. I don't know under what terms or how much money was retained or refunded.

PilotLZ

22nd May 2020, 15:57

I'm curious about the force majeure clause in said contracts. What level of protection does it provide for either party under these circumstances? A pandemic resulting in a global lockdown is definitely a bona fide cause of force majeure.

Alex Whittingham

22nd May 2020, 16:08

I have never seen a CTC or L3 contract. Is there some sort of NDA in place?

parkfell

23rd May 2020, 07:20

I think that the cat may well & truly be out of the bag (given social media reports) with dissatisfied customers due to L3’s inability to provide training in a timely manner, as anticipated in the contract.
NDAs ability to conceal the dissatisfaction is now ineffective. The dam has burst.

These contracts are invariably heavy weighted in favour of ATOs and provided the experience stays positive, remains on track, everyone is happy.
However, when a number of FIs simply jumped ship to fly the big silver birds etc, then of course problems arise.
Depending on the level of dissatisfaction, M’learned friends may well be earning a crust.

The paradox is that given the tsunami, there will be numerous ex FIs, (now/about to be unfortunately made redundant from airlines) who would be more than happy to be re-employed at an ATO.

A new era dawns post lockdown.
Those ATOs who take a more holistic approach and treat those unfortunate trainees caught up in the tsunami well, similar to a doctor/patient relationship, (as oppose to a hard nosed commercial contract) will invariably become stronger and survive by doing it right. Social media can be very persuasive.

VariablePitchP

24th May 2020, 07:20

I have never seen a CTC or L3 contract. Is there some sort of NDA in place?

Irrelevant if the contract is void anyway as what does the student have to lose. No large company is going to sue a 19 year old for making come comments on Facebook.

VariablePitchP

24th May 2020, 07:24

parkfell

Take if you’ve never dealt with CTC/L3 then?

Whatever happens it will be done in a way that ensures they can screw the absolute maximum amount of money out of the student/instructor for the minimum investment.

I expect them to have their glossy mags up and running again in no time, and given that if Daddy is paying it doesn’t really matter, they will probably fill their courses up quite happily.

Social media really doesn’t matter. They’ve treated their students like absolute dirt for years (ask me how I know...) but people don’t want to read things that go against their dream, and will continue to gladly part with their cash.

parkfell

24th May 2020, 08:14

.........given that if Daddy is paying it doesn’t really matter, they will probably fill their courses up .

I suspect that “Daddy” will have woken up and smelt the coffee, as they say...?

Cistor

24th May 2020, 08:56

The amount of denial and fear amongst students in sausage factories is quite astounding if you come from other backgrounds... It's all about selling the dream.

VariablePitchP

24th May 2020, 09:26

I suspect that “Daddy” will have woken up and smelt the coffee, as they say...?

Why?? If you’re loaded and little Jimmy wants to be a pilot you’re still going to fund it, it’s not like they all got jobs anyway. For a lot, the money is so irrelevant that it’s just another thing that Jimmy wants to try out and hopefully may finally get an actual job out of it.

The ones to suffer will be those who were put through by the airlines or in some way sponsored, that’ll dry up completely which is a real shame.

For our 20 year old without the brains to get into uni or the drive to have any real career prospects, but has loaded parents... They’ll be absolutely fine.

Contact Approach

24th May 2020, 14:23

For our 20 year old without the brains to get into uni or the drive to have any real career prospects, but has loaded parents... They’ll be absolutely fine.

If i were starting out again I'd really struggle to pursue any sort of career as it seems that ship has sailed!

janrein

4th Jul 2020, 18:26

Is there any news when L3 will resume training?

Looks like that's not gonna happen anymore (for the portuguese base) according to recent news article:
https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/700609/academia-de-pilotos-brit-nica-deixa-alunos-de-ponte-de-sor-sem-dinheiro-nem-solucao-?seccao=Dinheiro&fbclid=IwAR2zvbO73jtBxKTZYyyzRD4-lHLRzaSxGUIpUz5fU0DNSiVTp65HisKolVw

"British Pilot Academy leaves Ponte de Sor students without money or solution"

uncle dickie

5th Jul 2020, 11:41

A possible solution is moving to Spain, the largest recognised ATO provider being FTE Jerez.

PilotLZ

5th Jul 2020, 14:56

With travel restrictions to both New Zealand and the USA in place for an indefinite period, FTE Jerez indeed looks like the safest bet out there. I'm not getting into the modular VS integrated VS a different career debate, just considering the facts regarding the availability of the different facilities for the foreseeable future.

VariablePitchP

6th Jul 2020, 13:14

Looks like that's not gonna happen anymore (for the portuguese base) according to recent news article:
https://ionline.sapo.pt/artigo/700609/academia-de-pilotos-brit-nica-deixa-alunos-de-ponte-de-sor-sem-dinheiro-nem-solucao-?seccao=Dinheiro&fbclid=IwAR2zvbO73jtBxKTZYyyzRD4-lHLRzaSxGUIpUz5fU0DNSiVTp65HisKolVw

"British Pilot Academy leaves Ponte de Sor students without money or solution"

English:

“An aviation school in Ponte de Sor terminated contracts with 120 cadets, who now cannot find a place to continue the course. Company L3 justifies a pandemic decision.

The Aviation School Aerocondor L3 European Airline Academy - located at the Ponte de Sor aerodrome, in Alentejo - decided to terminate the contracts of 120 students who attended the course that would allow them to obtain the commercial aircraft pilot license (ATPL) .

The notice arrived by email and was justified by covid-19. In practice, the 120 students were left without the money for the part of the training already completed (around 20 thousand euros) and without alternatives to continue and complete the course. The problem, in this case, is that this pilot training must be carried out, from beginning to end, obligatorily within 36 months, according to the international rules defined by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) ). Now, with no places available at other schools - due to the high number of people currently attending ATPL courses in Portugal - the 120 students risk losing everything: money and training”

Doesn't surprise me for even a second. They never cared about their students in the past. They don’t care about them now. They won’t care in the future. WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP GIVING THEM THEIR MONEY?? :ugh:

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP

7th Jul 2020, 05:50

The airlines are getting murdered by this. The same applies to any training provider.

Anyone who parts with a penny up front needs their heads examining. There will be casualties and you will lose your money. If you are extremely lucky, you might complete the course. But there won’t be a job at the end of it. Not a chance.

parkfell

7th Jul 2020, 10:41

Whilst the Right Honourable Gentleman has expressed his point of view, and although it is not essentially without merit, there are certain aspects to consider.
Payment by credit card will give some protection. Other means may well have little or no protection.
Insurance against default might be an option; take financial advice from a professional authorised to provide it.

Those who have just started might well decide to throw in the towel, cut their losses and perhaps wait for better times and eventually go down the modular route.
Alternatively the ATO might agree to you pausing training for say a year, perhaps longer, until the prospects of employment becomes less opaque.
I assume the ATO is still trading.

Those deep into the flying having spent 75%+ might well decide to keep on going. What has been spent is a ‘sunk cost’ and with nothing to show for it apart from a PPL at best. So for that extra 25% you are issued with a licence, and await in a state of hibernation.

Renewals, keeping reasonably current, needs careful planning and something the ATO might be flexible with special deals going for previous customers.

Another option would be to delay the MCC element so that you have the course later downstream when the “green shoots” aka interviews start to appear. Hit the ground running.

As for those not at the start, or near the end, at least complete the EASA exams successfully, before making a final decision.

Unfortunately, not all ATOs will survive the tsunami. Spent your money carefully, as up front payments are always at potential risk.
Above all, above smooooth talking snake oil salesmen.

prince_monaco

7th Jul 2020, 12:08

VariablePitchP

Some of them are moving to Spain to Flybyschool in the new base in Sória (Garray field).

parkfell

8th Jul 2020, 10:32

For those unfortunate junior birdmen who have left L3 Portugal, in common with advice given to those selecting any ATO for the very first time, you must visit the establishment speak to the staff and more importantly the customers.

Usual advice in all circumstances: CAVEAT EMPTOR & due diligence.

They have had a rough time, and to a certain extent ‘shell shocked‘, and will be susceptible to smooooth talking snake oil salesmen.

A320LGW

8th Jul 2020, 12:55

Lots of people are suddenly about to find out they aren't the invincibles they once thought they were nor are they in any way 'special' for having had the 'unique' opportunity to throw 100k down the drain for a chance to study at these so called academies

I hope this is the end of the L3/CAE/FTE cartel that has dominated European aviation for the last while. Major change was needed and this may be one of the few good things to come from this crisis.

parkfell

10th Jul 2020, 06:50

L3 Twitter feed offering the modular route starting January 2021.
“zero to hero” style available

You do wonder given the treatment of customers this year, how many courageous customers they are likely to attract.

wiggy

10th Jul 2020, 09:38

There will no doubt be a few not paying attention to current events who will fall for the "never been a better time to train" sales pitch...

Alex Whittingham

10th Jul 2020, 18:10

Wildly expensive, though, they will never get their cost base down to compare with real modular prices. And we know what happens when the market starts to pick up, you will be dumped just like the Portugese students.

Klimax

25th Nov 2020, 13:57

A most unfortunate situation for the clients/students of this ATO. How does the L3 organization expect to be taken serious in the future? This type of business decision, involving the termination of a 120 hopeful young people, in such a fashion is far from admirable. I wish the best for the students and hope they will find a way forward.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP

25th Nov 2020, 16:53

From the outside, L3 is very shiny and impressive. A bit like the image VS used to have. If that floats your boat, you are hooked.

Bit like getting your car serviced at the Mercedes main agent. All image. Free coffee and biscuits. Sky TV, comfy sofas. Then they charge you £150 + VAT for 5 litres of oil. Plus labour.

Same job can be done for a lot less elsewhere. Depends on how much image matters to you.

kitfox446

9th Apr 2023, 06:42

If you have visited L3, was that a question you asked of the staff and customers you met?

Due diligence?.

If only staff were honest with their students. Stories abound of schools that lie to their prospective students about timelines, availability of instructors, flexibility of training, etc. Trying to get them to modify contracts on a case-by-case basis is perhaps worth a try, but probably unrealistic.

Based on my own experiences, I would strongly advise speaking directly to a large number of students in various phases of training, if you can find a way to do it. Look for student lounges, or even ask for some contacts from whoever interviewed you. Beware that they will likely share only contacts with positive feedback, but you can potentially use such contacts to reach others in turn who may have a different perspective.

Unfortunately, there is also the possibility that a previously good organization will turn bad. There is also the possibility that a dysfunctional org will get its act together and improve.

I think it’s a great idea on OP’s part to ask here as well. If you can’t find students to ask directly, post online and maybe the right people will see it