ADF Fire fighting

[finestkind]

A number of years back an individual in the RAN had done all the work to have the helo's signed off for bucket's. At the last minute it went fitzzz. Mid 90's the RAAF were looking at a CL 125 ( I think) which also could have been used for some SAS work as well as fire fighting. Why at the time do we not have helo operation that include fire fighting capabilities. I know it blows out flying hours and the budget but if we can and do provide humanitarian aid why is this not factored in as part of the ADF remit?

[Ascend Charlie]

"Aid to the Civil Power" requires a lot of justification. All the civil avenues of performing the task have to be exploited, otherwise somebody will bleat that the Army has taken his job on the fire lines.

Wiring for a bucket would need extensive testing by ARDU, and then every aircraft of that type would need to be fitted, the crews trained, blah and blah. Military aircraft have enough stuff in them without extra wires for a "just in case" exercise.

Mil aircraft are designed to START fires, not put them out.

[rattman]

"Aid to the Civil Power" requires a lot of justification. All the civil avenues of performing the task have to be exploited, otherwise somebody will bleat that the Army has taken his job on the fire lines.


Wont happens Rural fire fighters are a volunteer and not paid

In australia for disaster relief, while it does vary between states, there is a long standing and running agreement that the military can be used in disaster relief at the request of the state govt and the permission of the commonwealth govt. I have never heard of it being rejected, where I live the army has multiple times been called in assist, heck last one was february when they when they used armored vehicles for flood evacuations. Time before that after a cyclone there was section of military going around and providing manual labor the a civilian emergency services clearing down trees because they weren't allowed to use chainsaws. From what I understand the only legal issue is that they are not covered by good samaratin laws while officially working for the ADF


During the cyclone season there is always landing ships (Choules, Canberra or adelaide) designated for be ready to respond to cyclones on the northern coast or in the pacific at request on state or foreign governments

Our MRH - 90 are bambi bucket certified, I believe chinooks are as well, there bambi black hawks operating but they are civilian from the US. Our hueys are certified and theres a dozen ex military operating atm, one crashed last friday

(navy MRH-90 and seahawks have been bucket certified and trained, dunno if that is still current and if that rolls over the army MRH-90 / blackhawks https://news.navy.gov.au/en/Nov2014/Fleet/1624/MRH90-Preparing-for-Bushfire-Season.htm_ (https://news.navy.gov.au/en/Nov2014/Fleet/1624/MRH90-Preparing-for-Bushfire-Season.htm)

[John Eacott]

Wont happens Rural fire fighters are a volunteer and not paid

In australia for disaster relief, while it does vary between states, there is a long standing and running agreement that the military can be used in disaster relief at the request of the state govt and the permission of the commonwealth govt. I have never heard of it being rejected, where I live the army has multiple times been called in assist, heck last one was february when they when they used armored vehicles for flood evacuations. Time before that after a cyclone there was section of military going around and providing manual labor the a civilian emergency services clearing down trees because they weren't allowed to use chainsaws. From what I understand the only legal issue is that they are not covered by good samaratin laws while officially working for the ADF


During the cyclone season there is always landing ships (Choules, Canberra or adelaide) designated for be ready to respond to cyclones on the northern coast or in the pacific at request on state or foreign governments

Our MRH - 90 are bambi bucket certified, I believe chinooks are as well, there bambi black hawks operating but they are civilian from the US. Our hueys are certified and theres a dozen ex military operating atm, one crashed last friday

(navy MRH-90 and seahawks have been bucket certified and trained, dunno if that is still current and if that rolls over the army MRH-90 / blackhawks https://news.navy.gov.au/en/Nov2014/Fleet/1624/MRH90-Preparing-for-Bushfire-Season.htm_ (https://news.navy.gov.au/en/Nov2014/Fleet/1624/MRH90-Preparing-for-Bushfire-Season.htm)

Not sure you're fully briefed on civil fire ops? We're talking here about aviation support and unlike many volunteer firefighters in Australia, the aviation support is NOT unpaid. We invest very heavily in equipment and personnel and do expect a fair opportunity to gain income from that investment: not an unreasonable expectation and gets to the point of Ascend Charlie post. When the chips are down we expect all assets to be used and would welcome trained and certified aircraft (rotary and fixed wing) but the ADF isn't always able to resond accordingly. Indeed, the only Mil assets I worked with were Squirrels in the Firebird role, and a Sea King for transport/sling support. The latter was a bit of a cluster as I had a machine sitting idle but a drone in DSE reported nothing available so the SK was brought in after much paperwork; then the VicPol Superintendent responsible for getting the SK flew in my machine, asked how busy it had been and promptly asked some pointed questions of the DSE when I let him know the machine had been idle for a week: and it was a very capable Helitack, not just a freighter!

So Ascend Charlie makes a very valid point, as the civil fleet is fit for purpose, whereas the Mil fleet may well be but only up to a point.

ps the crash this last week was a McDermott Aviation Bell 214B, which is neither a Huey nor an ex-Mil machine as you infer :ok: And the civvie Blackhawk/Firehawks are extensively modified for Helitack ops, including belly tank fit.

[finestkind]

Ascend Charlie. I take your point WRT contractor's missing out on money but unless the "govnmint" is confident that they have contracted sufficient assets for the worst possible scenario (given our current situation and we have not even hit summer) then having a back up is highly desirable. As far as training, most (if not all) ADF helo's carry underslung loads. I would not have thought it to difficult to train in pressing the tit to release the water (as opposed to pressing the tit to pickle the load when it becomes rotor bound)and become aware of the hazards associated with fire bombing from thermals to birds etc. I understand that the ADF is for "starting fires" and may well be committed elsewhere to do so but there will always be a few around in the training role.

John valid point on aircraft being fit for purpose but an underslung load with the ability to dump I would have thought was all that was needed. Certainly just a bystander and no expert so happy to be corrected and just wondering why not use the machines when we do use the personal.

[minigundiplomat]

Peat fires were a regular occurrence in the Falklands, so the resident Chook was capable of carrying a 5t bucket and the crews did a familiarisation exercise on arrival. It was hardly onerous, but added a huge capability. However, the fact the Poms did it is probably the reason for the Australians not to I suppose; gotta love the hard way.

[Ascend Charlie]

pressing the tit to release the water (as opposed to pressing the tit to pickle the load

This is exactly the point. Pressing the tit opens the hook and drops whatever is on it. If you have a bucketful of water on the hook, you don't want to drop the whole bucket as well. It requires specific wiring to release the plug on the bucket, not drop the bucket.

Many a bucket has been dropped on a fire, or in the dam while dipping up a new load, through finger trouble, pressing the wrong tit.

Certainly just a bystander and no expert so happy to be corrected

Consider yourself corrected.

[DCThumb]

Peat fires were a regular occurrence in the Falklands, so the resident Chook was capable of carrying a 5t bucket and the crews did a familiarisation exercise on arrival......
over the 1435 Q Shed ISTR :D

[finestkind]

Ascend Charlie, sorry don’t see the merit in that correction. If buckets have been inadvertently pickled through finger trouble it is obviously not the ADF that have done that but the trained and /or experienced fire fighters which will occur through human error. Considering the number of buttons that the Mil operators have to press that do start fires I think that their inadvertent bucket release rate would be lower than non mil operators.

[typerated]

I'd tend to see this from the POV that if say the Californian fires were caused by a foreign power can you imagine the fury the the president would react with.
Yet, it seems, some small minded commanders quibble about a few hours bucket training and being taken off task - what task could be more important????

I'm surprised the RAAF C-130J's don't have the pallet fitted retardant dropper like the ANG use - seems a no brainer but must be a reason??

[minigundiplomat]

This is exactly the point. Pressing the tit opens the hook and drops whatever is on it. If you have a bucketful of water on the hook, you don't want to drop the whole bucket as well. It requires specific wiring to release the plug on the bucket, not drop the bucket.

The wiring follows the sling up to the cabin; the crewman releases the water from the cabin. There can be no confusion, the person with the hook jettison switch, is not the person flicking a switch to dump water. If that's not the case, its your SOP's that are wrong, not the concept.

over the 1435 Q Shed ISTR

​​​​​​​You have to get your kicks down there somehow.....

[John Eacott]

The wiring follows the sling up to the cabin; the crewman releases the water from the cabin. There can be no confusion, the person with the hook jettison switch, is not the person flicking a switch to dump water. Ifhat's not the case, its your SOP's that are wrong, not the concept.

Crewman? What crewman :hmm: :rolleyes:

Another indication of the misunderstanding of professional aerial firefighting: no commercial operation can afford to take out 100 litres in exchange for talking ballast. The wiring for the bucket operation (many multi dump these days, not just one load) is usually integral in the cyclic or collective hence Ascend Charlie comments, which are from the knowledge base of civil operations. Not decrying the use of a crewman if power and payload are to spare, eg Chinook, but intense campaign fires don't have that luxury in the Australian heat and conditions.

I'd dearly like to see a planned military backup available for intense bushfires, but this inevitable knee jerk reaction demanding unplanned firefront support helps no-one in the short term. Best support at the moment is for Firebird/Observation use of Mil plus transport: currently KC-30 from 33 Squadron RAAF are flying support CFA firefighters from/back to Victoria to give a rest to the RFS troops in Queensland and NSW.

Long term the States need to get their act together (along with NAFC) and stop the blame game. Ultimate insult today is the Queensland Premier calling out the Federal Government to buy a C-130, in spite of the VLAT availability negotiated between States for many years. Queensland has been well known for poor investment in firefighting support, and all States have responsibility for their own fire brigades but suddenly the green eyed monster has awoken because NSW have invested in their own 737 and Queensland hasn't!!

[finestkind]

Hi John. As indicated in the start of the post there have been, a number of years ago, the idea and consideration of the ADF having the potential to be able to provide an aerial fire fighting capability. Nothing is going to get off the ground this year let alone next year even if signed off on. I may have missed the post that asked the ADF to be involved now. I appreciate the feedback on contractors, training and other requirements but as you indicated it would be great to have the ADF as a backup. The mil operators are trained to a high level for the roles they perform. Given the ADF helo pilots (for the most part) are trained in under slung loads I don't see it being a large training requirement to include buckets and fire fighting.

Perhaps NSW needs to invest a bit more in aerial equipment which they can than lease to the other states:)

[rattman]

Perhaps NSW needs to invest a bit more in aerial equipment which they can than lease to the other states:)

Or maybe the federal govt should buy some additional ones, have them spread around australia so there one capital city, when required they can fly them to where needed, as they still have a passenger compartments you could fly over the ground crews + 100ish extra firefighters.

The feds should pony up for scheme that has some of the large air tankers and based at RAAF bases around the country as well have having groups of firefighters that are still volunteers but paid when mobilised so they can deploy in the aircraft and assist local fighters on the ground when needed. Who knows might be some cheap maxs to convert into LATS coming up soon :D

[spoz]

It's now a number of years ago, but certainly in the early 2000s Navy was both equipped with bambi buckets for S-70B and Squirrel (not that they could carry much) and trained in their use. We were involved in a number of fire fighting activities in that era. Whether that capability is still maintained with the new aircraft types I don't know.

[601]

Is the F/A 18 capable of supersonic flight at sea level. If so these aircraft could be used for fire suppression.
An aircraft capable of exceeding the speed of sound (Mach 1) creates a sonic boom along its flight path. The pressure differential can easily blow out windows and therefore flames. The sonic boom continues along the flight path of the aircraft, covering approximately one mile of ground per 1000ft of altitude.

[Ascend Charlie]

Go one step better and do what Forrest Trump suggested, dropping Nookular Bombs to blow out the flames.

[typerated]

I'd start with stopping burning coal and oil!!! Until that happens it's going to spiral out of control.

And I'd managing retreat from many areas.

Buckle up It's going to be an interesting ride!

[601]

Go one step better and do what Forrest Trump suggested, dropping Nookular Bombs to blow out the flames.

Sweden Drops Bombs to Help Tame Wildfire (https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/21015031/sweden-drops-bomb-deprive-wildfire-forest-fire-of-oxygen-firefighters)

[finestkind]

typerated not to certain where you are headed. The post is about fighting fires and the use of ADF assets in doing so.

[SnowFella]

Sweden Drops Bombs to Help Tame Wildfire (https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/21015031/sweden-drops-bomb-deprive-wildfire-forest-fire-of-oxygen-firefighters)
Blew out fires within 100 meters in if my memory is correct was slow burning peat fires, spent time on that range and it's mainly moss and some pine trees...would take quite a few GBU's to knock out the kinds of fires we see down here!

[typerated]

typerated not to certain where you are headed. The post is about fighting fires and the use of ADF assets in doing so.

I would have thought it was pretty obvious where it is heading!

Undoubted the ADF should be 'defending' the country though - what could be more priority!

How much have they spent in the sandpit and for what?

But while aircraft are of useful value in fire fighting, they are far from a silver bullet. - and become less so as the climate changes, fires get bigger and the ground drier.

A few more aircraft will be useful but a drop in the ocean when you consider what the forecasted environment has in store for us...

Having been evacuated early this year with a bushfire, aircraft were pretty impotent in aggressive conditions.

Seeing Scott Morrison's denials just make me think we are doomed. I do wonder how far down this road we will go before the penny really drops where we are going!

[finestkind]

typerated.I am often accused of not staying on subject and jumping ahead or back and confusing the discussion. I just wanted to confirm what your point was before responding, which is, this is not a post on climate change (either start one yourself (if you have fantastic) or more than likely go to one that is running). Not a post on who or what started the fires. Not a post on finding or suggesting using ADF assets will provide a “silver bullet”. In aggressive conditions nothing we have in our arsenal will have an impact on the fire but suggest you talk to someone who’s house/home has been saved by aerial assets and get their point of view about the “drop in the ocean” of having a few more aerial assets.The sun will explode in 4 or 5 billion years, not really a discussion point for this post. The population explosion and diminishing resources is going to destroy civilisation (if we can call it that) before climate change but not a discussion point on this post.So would it be a positive drop in the ocean to have a few more aerial assets available and could we utilise the ADF assets to do so. This is the discussion point of the post.

[minigundiplomat]

Crewman? What crewman https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif

Another indication of the misunderstanding of professional aerial firefighting: no commercial operation can afford to take out 100 litres in exchange for talking ballast. The wiring for the bucket operation (many multi dump these days, not just one load) is usually integral in the cyclic or collective hence Ascend Charlie comments, which are from the knowledge base of civil operations. Not decrying the use of a crewman if power and payload are to spare, eg Chinook, but intense campaign fires don't have that luxury in the Australian heat and conditions.

I'd dearly like to see a planned military backup available for intense bushfires, but this inevitable knee jerk reaction demanding unplanned firefront support helps no-one in the short term. Best support at the moment is for Firebird/Observation use of Mil plus transport: currently KC-30 from 33 Squadron RAAF are flying support CFA firefighters from/back to Victoria to give a rest to the RFS troops in Queensland and NSW.

Long term the States need to get their act together (along with NAFC) and stop the blame game. Ultimate insult today is the Queensland Premier calling out the Federal Government to buy a C-130, in spite of the VLAT availability negotiated between States for many years. Queensland has been well known for poor investment in firefighting support, and all States have responsibility for their own fire brigades but suddenly the green eyed monster has awoken because NSW have invested in their own 737 and Queensland hasn't!!

Am I allowed to comment now? or will I get banned for another week for having a different opinion? asking for a friend......

[finestkind]

I note that the ADF is assisting in numerous ways in supporting the fire fighting efforts although not directly able to fire fight due not being covered by OH&S. I know that training is required but do chuckle at the OH&S issue considering what the ADF actually does.

[Ascend Charlie]

but do chuckle at the OH&S issue considering what the ADF actually does.

As said before, their job is usually to start fires, not put them out.

I was at a Firepower Display at Puckapunyal many years ago, and one of the tank rounds bounced off the target and disappeared into the grassy, bushy distance. Boom. When the fire got noticeable, all the fun and games stopped while the troops all galloped out in their APCs and put the fire out. So, the ADF does put out fires, but on that occasion it was by grunt power.

[SRFred]

MRH-90 Taipan A40-045 active on the Blue Mt fires this afternoon Katoomba to Lithgow and the Grose Valley. Not sure if water bombing or merely observing fire fronts etc.

[rattman]

I note that the ADF is assisting in numerous ways in supporting the fire fighting efforts although not directly able to fire fight due not being covered by OH&S. I know that training is required but do chuckle at the OH&S issue considering what the ADF actually does.

Yeah they have crazy OHS issues

During one of the cyclone clean up, no army personal where allowed to use a chainsaw unless they had military skills training in them. It turned out that virtually no one who was available had, that didn't become much of an issue because they found out that most of the chainsaws were US in the first hour. In the end the army were just extra fetch and carry hands for the a emergency services who had chainsaws that worked. So while their time and services were appreciated it goes to show you just cant throw a military force in a emergency with no training and expect them operate at the same level as those who have

[finestkind]

Rattman, totally agree. Filling sand bags (ohh for those days) does not require a lot of training. Providing food, fuel, shelter backup in transportation all good and easy things that can reduce the work load on the fighters. We provide humanitarian aid utilising the skills that the ADF have.The requirement for OH&S is real but also at times red tape, "you have to complete a chain saw course and be certified" is ??. Fair enough even though you have been using a chain saw for 20+ years. No question on training but considering the helo assets we have and the training that is done from night ops, confined spaces, under slung loads, etc its not a large stretch of the imagination that a wee bit more training in water dropping would not be an excessive task.

[Hydromet]

It was all so much easier in the old days.
During the 1974 floods we worked in 2 man hydrographic teams, a hydrographer and his assistant. The army had teams out, mainly filling sandbags and doing manual labour. A mate, an experienced assistant not long back from Vietnam, asked a Lt. if he could borrow a couple of blokes interested in doing a bit of hydrographic work. No problems. It enabled us to have two teams in action instead of one.
I guess these days it would need to go up the chain of command, and probably need ministerial approval.

[rattman]

No question on training but considering the helo assets we have and the training that is done from night ops, confined spaces, under slung loads, etc its not a large stretch of the imagination that a wee bit more training in water dropping would not be an excessive task.

I sail with a former black hawk, now MRH90 pilot, he says they were trained in bambi bucket operation (didn't say when) because they could be called upon to quench fires on military property/ranges where could be unexploded ordenance. Every so often they re-practice it. He said in theory he could do it, has all the flight skills to do it, but know nothing about fires he would need to fly in the left seat of an experience fire fighting pilot before he thinks it would be more than a token effort on their part.

Thats completely ignoring the cost of running a military chopper vs civilian which is 3times more expensive per flight hour

[JLWSanDiego]

In the San Diego area both national guard and navy have equipped some helicopters with civilian radios and trained with local fire agencies to assist during major fires

[Skymong]

I sail with a former black hawk, now MRH90 pilot, he says they were trained in bambi bucket operation (didn't say when) because they could be called upon to quench fires on military property/ranges where could be unexploded ordenance. Every so often they re-practice it. He said in theory he could do it, has all the flight skills to do it, but know nothing about fires he would need to fly in the left seat of an experience fire fighting pilot before he thinks it would be more than a token effort on their part.

Thats completely ignoring the cost of running a military chopper vs civilian which is 3times more expensive per flight hour


While RAN MRH has the capability to conduct bambi-bucket ops, not many of the crews are actually qualified in it. Without wanting to take this thread off topic, in my opinion the ADF could provide more assistance via the privision of man-power for support roles to the RFS guys and girls on the ground.

[evilroy]

A lot of Navy aircrew are certified for Bambi Bucket ops; how many are current is another matter.

[Buster Hyman]

This might be a dumb question, but why can't the RAN deploy the LHD's to Mallacoota to evacuate by sea? 4x LCM's...could be handy.

[kiwi grey]

This might be a dumb question, but why can't the RAN deploy the LHDs to Mallacoota to evacuate by sea? 4x LCM's...could be handy.

Probably because they both have their crews (except for an unlucky few) on Christmas stand-down?

According to press reports the LSD HMAS Choules and the multi-role aviation training vessel MV Sycamore are being sent, presumably they are the duty ships on "48 hours notice to sail"

[Mk 1]

This might be a dumb question, but why can't the RAN deploy the LHD's to Mallacoota to evacuate by sea? 4x LCM's...could be handy.
Choules is more than capable - equipped with a well dock and LCM8's.
https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-choules

[rattman]

Probably because they both have their crews (except for an unlucky few) on Christmas stand-down?

According to press reports the LSD HMAS Choules and the multi-role aviation training vessel MV Sycamore are being sent, presumably they are the duty ships on "48 hours notice to sail"

Yes according to what I heard the choules was a designated to be on standby for disaster response over the a xmas break. Normally you get more than 24-48 hours notice when it comes to cyclones, they were both heading to sea within 12 hours. Both are on ais ship tracking for anyone who cares

[finestkind]

Well the ADF has been released to assist as much as possible. It is a bit hard to respond to a disaster before there is one.

[tartare]

I note on Wiki r/e the Herc in RAAF service:

During April 1982, a C-130H was fitted with aerial firefighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_firefighting) equipment acquired from the United States Forest Service (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forest_Service) for trials purposes; several Hercules later used this equipment to fight bushfires.

Purely a question; can RAAF C-130Js be fitted with the MAFFS kit, or is there some sort of incompatibility?
If so - why is this not an option - C-130 fleet too busy with other ops?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Airborne_FireFighting_System

EDIT : Hmm - a shame - from another website: The Aero Union company, after going through bankruptcy, now consists of one person who is dealing with the remaining financial issues until the doors are closed for the last time. If any new MAFFS units are manufactured, it would likely be done by another company.
https://fireaviation.com/2013/05/11/ten-things-to-know-about-maffs-military-air-tankers/

There's quite an interesting short report on the RAAF C-130 MAFFS trial in Victoria in 1982 here:
https://www.ffm.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/21015/Report-15-Project-MAFFS-HERCULES_-the-Modular-Airborne-Fire-Fighting-System-in-Victoria.pdf

[hunterboy]

I do think that collectively we are coming to the point where we need some long term thinking at very high level to deal with the problems we will be facing in the coming centuries. For the centrally planned economies like China, I believe they will cope easier than the Capitalist West, that seems to begrudge any money spent or invested by the government for those climate change rainy days.
It doesn’t take a climate change scientist to realise that these type of events are only the start of the challenges we will be facing.

[Asturias56]

Good job they bought the "Largs Bay" - I see she's been lifting people off the beaches as HMAS Choules..................

[rattman]

I

EDIT : Hmm - a shame - from another website: The Aero Union company, after going through bankruptcy, now consists of one person who is dealing with the remaining financial issues until the doors are closed for the last time. If any new MAFFS units are manufactured, it would likely be done by another company.
https://fireaviation.com/2013/05/11/ten-things-to-know-about-maffs-military-air-tankers/


These guys look like they have the build rights for it according to their website
http://blueaero.com/c-130/

Exclusive manufacturer of MAFFS II RO/RO airborne firefighting system

[SnowFella]

They just went ahead with a ballsy move and will start calling up 3000 ADF reserves to help, plus getting HMAS Adelaide ready to sail.
And looking at FR24 today RAAF (or whoever they contract them from) has been flying recce over the firegrounds both yesterday and today with 2 Learjets.

Edit: Next suburb over from me just cracked it's max heat record, clocked in at 47.7C

[rattman]

They just went ahead with a ballsy move and will start calling up 3000 ADF reserves to help, plus getting HMAS Adelaide ready to sail.
And looking at FR24 today RAAF (or whoever they contract them from) has been flying recce over the firegrounds both yesterday and today with 2 Learjets.


One learjet has been active for the week, callsign LJ35 from memory
Air Affairs Australia | Specialised Aviation Services | Bushfire Scanning | Airborne Remote Sensing | Defence Training (http://www.airaffairs.com.au/bushfire_ISR/)

[SnowFella]

2 of them in the air right now, both showing up as LJ35.

[tartare]

I do think that collectively we are coming to the point where we need some long term thinking at very high level to deal with the problems we will be facing in the coming centuries. For the centrally planned economies like China, I believe they will cope easier than the Capitalist West, that seems to begrudge any money spent or invested by the government for those climate change rainy days.
It doesn’t take a climate change scientist to realise that these type of events are only the start of the challenges we will be facing.

I completely agree.
Long term thinking is something the Australian Federal Government is utterly incapable of.
Leaders take risks, try new things, chart a path.
This lot - they're nothing more than administrators.
Muppets the lot of them.

[Buster Hyman]

"Long term" in a democracy is only up to the next election.

If we're to change the whole process of Government to enable a National response, then fine, but that's not what is in place right now. This can certainly be the catalyst for change as we've never had this level of fire activity across the country at the same time. The states are set up for these emergencies. They control what they need & when they need it. VIC wanted LHD's to evacuate Mallacoota, NSW didn't want/need that type of help. If we change the command & control aspect to Nationalise it, then that's just not an overnight fix.

ScoMo has done himself no favours during this emergency, that much is certain, but he's become the social media whipping boy at the moment & the "professional" journalists are jumping on the bandwagon now.

[finestkind]

Some good points raised. Given the current situation there is no doubt a better, more organised setup is required in relation to having assets available and also being able to call on other assets/organisations with minimal red tape. This will be an "insurance policy" as the likelihood of a situation such as this occurring again in the near future is minimal (having said that I'll not be taking bets). But like insurance, better to be prepared than not.

[SnowFella]

Not the kind of conditions I would want for trying to land a plane...zero visibility!
http://youtu.be/EZqW3lmcJL4

[Asturias56]

"But like insurance, better to be prepared than not."

Trouble is it costs a lot of money and may not be all used every year - IF you believe that the current level of fires is going to happen every year then it's probably a decent investment - but if it's only every 10 years maybe not. In a perfect world you'd have a force that could move wherever it's needed -

[Buster Hyman]

Didn't QLD learn a hard lesson about Insurance a few years back?

[tartare]

These guys look like they have the build rights for it according to their website
http://blueaero.com/c-130/

Exclusive manufacturer of MAFFS II RO/RO airborne firefighting system

I'd love to know why there isn't a compelling business case to purchase MAFF kits for say half the C-130J fleet.

[flighthappens]

I'd love to know why there isn't a compelling business case to purchase MAFF kits for say half the C-130J fleet.

Military Operations, Military Exercises, Crew training, Crew currency, other roles in HADR (moving stuff around)... The ADF primary role is not HADR, and there are other assets available.

[rattman]

Military Operations, Military Exercises, Crew training, Crew currency, other roles in HADR (moving stuff around)... The ADF primary role is not HADR, and there are other assets available.

Yep its a bit easier for USAF to keep crews and aircraft ready. They have what 400 + models in ANG/usaf while australia has what 12 or so.

[Maggie Island]

Military Operations, Military Exercises, Crew training, Crew currency, other roles in HADR (moving stuff around)... The ADF primary role is not HADR, and there are other assets available.

And theres a good chance we may not even have enough aircraft for “primary roles” as of today...

[layman]

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6603221/how-a-mission-to-save-canberra-from-bushfires-sparked-the-worst-fire-threat-since-2003/?cs=14225

MH90 landing light started the fire currently threatening Southern Canberra suburbs.

The helicopter sustained some damage.

The report says the ADF had been preparing possible landing sites for future firefighting use. The ADF had been doing this for at least the last 4 days, presumably operating out of Fairbairn.

Saw several flying on the weekend which I had (wrongly) attributed to Australia Day activities.

Every day’s a school day ...