The Danger of Hand Swinging the prop in modern aircraft

[Centaurus]

Self explanatory. Not sure of the date of this CASA video but every student and flying instructor should watch it - that includes instructor course candidates. Hand swinging is dangerous at the best of times. if the aircraft will not start due to a flat battery then replace the battery rather than cutting corners and hand swinging. The point about losing all the electrics in flight after hang swinging with a flat battery is a good one. The video mentions remote areas. Too many occasions occur where commercial pressures have pilots hand swinging at flying schools.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZr3qRtutnk

[rjtjrt]

Centaurus
When I click on that video link it seems to not be about swinging prop.
This one, from 2012, does.

https://youtu.be/uppnUfE7eTE

[roundsounds]

Hand starting aeroplanes is as safe as you make it. The reason for hand starting need to be considered and not all aeroplane types are suitable. Both the person starting and the pilot operating the controls need to be properly trained, understand the process and brief the exercise.

[Styx75]

Most aircraft these days will prohibit ifr flight after a hand swing. If you're vfr, just remember to count your fingers after a hand swing start...

[Aussie Bob]

Hand swinging is dangerous at the best of times.

Now in all your long career Centaurus, have you never flown a Tiger Moth?

[Okihara]

Way to go*:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x240/giphy_202a40bda3205e05a8d0caa1b9e84c931b77e66f.gif

*pun intended

[illusion]

Most aircraft these days will prohibit ifr flight after a hand swing. If you're vfr, just remember to count your fingers after a hand swing start...

and don't forget to count your fingers after shaking hands with a flying school owner- they may have nicked some...!

[Lead Balloon]

Way to go*:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x240/giphy_202a40bda3205e05a8d0caa1b9e84c931b77e66f.gif

*pun intended
Holy snappin’ ducksh!t.

He’ll get the Darwin Award eventually...

[machtuk]

Unless the donk is designed to be hand swung it's just plane crazy to start an engine by hand swinging the unguarded circular saw! Is it worth it? NO! I'd rather be on the ground pissed off it won't start than lying on some cold stainless steel table!

[India Four Two]

Okihara,

Thanks for posting that video, which I've seen before. I've always felt that pulling a propellor through during pre-flight is much more dangerous, precisely because you are not expecting the engine to start!

[Ixixly]

I don't know why Hand Swinging is peoples first thought when it comes to a dead battery on an Aircraft instead of finding someone with a vehicle and a set of jumper cables?

[Clinton McKenzie]

I’ve swung started a big Conti fitted to a Bonanza. Scarily easy. It’s a big country where assistance can be a looooong way away.

Fortunately I was better-prepared than old mate in the video who forgot Rule 1: Always assume one or both mags are ‘live’ and the propellor will kill you.

Jumper cables? Hmmmm. So many reasons why that is not a safe option in many cases. Where to clip them? What happens if they slip loose because of vibration? Cowls open? What happens when the prop wash breaks the cowls off? What about the crud that’s being blown into the engine bay?

As to taking off with a battery that’s not charging and an electrical system that’s not working properly after ‘swing starting’, the Darwin Awards include special mentions for those who repeatedly go out of their way to make sure they kill themselves.

[Ixixly]

Clinton wasn't so bad, one side of the cowls off, not so hard to put on with the engine at low idle and make sure they've got a good grip when you put them on! worked like a charm for me :D

[Clinton McKenzie]

Glad to hear it, Ix!

As always, so much - so very much - depends on systems knowledge and risk identification and mitigation. My observation is that systems knowledge is generally poor, which makes risk identification and mitigation - hmmm - ‘sub optimal’.

[strake]

than lying on some cold stainless steel table!

Or possibly lying on a number of cold stainless steel tables.....:eek:

[Cornish Jack]

Back in the 60s, night stop in Northern Burma (as it was then) Parked, on PSP, alongside a Grumman Goose, single pilot with 'business' pax. Goose has flat battery. Pilot decides to hand swing but has to use a chair to stand on to reach the prop! He had 'instructed' one of his pax in the RHS to ease the throttle back, once the engine caught. Engine started, pax increased power!!! Pilot went between prop tips and fuselage to reach through window to close throttle! I can still see the scene after nearly 60 years :eek:
As we found out later, the pilot , apparently, had taken the same Goose into a jungle river alighting to pick up M Nav Tony Melton who had ejactef from a Javelin en-route to the FE. Aviation can generate strange mixtures!!

[Okihara]

Jumper cables? Hmmmm. So many reasons why that is not a safe option in many cases. Where to clip them? What happens if they slip loose because of vibration? Cowls open? What happens when the prop wash breaks the cowls off? What about the crud that’s being blown into the engine bay?
Still, I'd rather lose the cowls over an arm. Probably less paperwork to fill out for CASA too.

[Sunfish]

A modern solution to the flat battery problem is a lithium battery jumper pack. Mine can start a cold 6 cylinder Toyota diesel. They weigh nothing. About $300 for a good one. Also can power your Ipad.

[Centaurus]

Now in all your long career Centaurus, have you never flown a Tiger Moth?
Lots of hours instructing on them in the RAAF as well as crop-dusting. For vertically challenged short arses like myself it was a problem getting a hand to the top of the prop to get a good swing - hence the danger. Hand swing the more powerful engines like Cessna/Warrior types with tricycle undercarriage then swinging those props when they were horizontal could be hazardous.

While I never did it thank goodness, hand starting a Dakota engine could be done using a human chain with the bloke drawing the short straw had his hand on the prop and a chain of others holding his other hand and all pulling together. Better still tying a rope around the Dakota spinner and have a jeep pull the rope to get the engine started.

[Ixixly]

Still, I'd rather lose the cowls over an arm. Probably less paperwork to fill out for CASA too.
difficult to fill out paperwork missing arms and/or fingers too :D

[Peter Fanelli]

A modern solution to the flat battery problem is a lithium battery jumper pack. Mine can start a cold 6 cylinder Toyota diesel. They weigh nothing. About $300 for a good one. Also can power your Ipad.
Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.

[segfault]

Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.

The jump starting thing is just a big power bank. As much a personal electronic device as a phone.

[chute packer]

Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.

Things have changed,
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/travelling-safely-batteries

[deja vu]

Ignorance is bliss. I once hand started the rear engine of a Cessna 336, it had an unexpected starter motor problem. I was stranded at Smithton in Tasmania late one Friday evening with no one else around and didn't really expect it to work out, but it was too easy. Fortunately I had chocked it well...enough. The crazy things you do when you are young.

[Jetjr]

Even a small jump pack is bigger than 200whr

[Sunfish]

That CASA advice is for passengers in rpt and charter. Experimental aircraft have been using lithium batteries for years and some are specifically approved by engine manufacturers (eg: rotax/earthx). I fail to see how carrying a battery as a tool would be intended to be covered by CASA advice - any more than for carrying a spare lead acid battery.

[Pinky the pilot]

I have made similar posts on similar threads in the past and wanted to copy and paste my earlier post but cannot find it, so.....

Way back in early 1990 when I arrived in PNG for the first time, after doing my endorsement on the 'Bongo Van,' the CP lined both of us newbies up and said something like this;

'Right you blokes, I'm going to show you something that you one day may find useful! Consider the following scenario; It's Friday, 1700 hrs local and you are the other side of the Owen Stanleys at some Godforsaken bush strip:hmm:, and all you want to do is get back to Moresby for the Friday Night BBQ and associated pissup at the Aero Club:ok:. You climb into the Islander and try to start one engine only to find that the starter motor has gone U/S!:mad: So this is what you do to get out of the situation.'

He then proceeded to show us (Scott L and myself) exactly how to hand start a 260HP Lycoming.
Climb into the a/c and lock the brakes on. Also chock wheels if possible.
Exit a/c and set Prop at compression. Re enter a/c.
Prime engine as normal.
Ensure throttle is fully closed, Master switch and both mags ON.
Exit a/c.
Carefully swing prop, ensuring that all body weight is on front foot as you swing, thereby stepping back as you swing downwards.

After about three attempts the engine started and ran quite nicely at idle. I filed the demonstration away in the memory banks for future reference.:D

Would you believe it but about 18 months later on my second hitch there, that exact scenario occurred!! It was late on a Friday afternoon, I was on the other side of the Owen Stanleys with just enough time to get back to Moresby and the starter motor in the LH engine went bagarap!:mad:

I had no intentions of missing the BBQ/pissup at the Club Dero and had absolutely no desire to stay in the local Village either, so I performed the abovementioned procedure. It was extremely annoying, especially not having any success after swinging the prop for about 7 or 8 times. By that time what seemed to be the entire Village population was lined up watching me, laughing and (seemingly to me) jeering at the crazy 'long long Balusman.'

This simply made me more determined, and to my enormous relief, somewhere around the 25th attempt at swinging I heard a 'click' followed by a 'whizzing' noise and the engine fired up, idling happily away!:ok::ok:

I scrambled into the a/c through one of the rear doors, climbed into the L/H seat and had the other engine fired up quicktaim!
And I was in the air headed back to Moresby somewhat in haste.

Oh and as for all the Villagers; If I remember correctly, they all went very silent when the engine finally fired up and there were many many gaping mouths when I taxied out!
Made my day it did! :ok:

Since that time I have handstarted the engine in a Pawnee a few times, using the same technique ie both mags and master on with a fully closed throttle and it has worked ok.

However, I really would be quite happy if I never ever had to do that sort of thing again!:=

[Clinton McKenzie]

I’d prefer never have to swing start an engine (again) too.

But (as you and many others have learnt, pinky) it’s a very big and remote world out there.

Ironically, I learnt how to swing start an engine from a very informative video produced by CASA on the subject - from back in the day when CASA produced useful educational material.

[mnttech]

I don't know why Hand Swinging is peoples first thought when it comes to a dead battery on an Aircraft instead of finding someone with a vehicle and a set of jumper cables?
Because a lot of aircraft are now 24 volt and the vehicles are 12, not enough voltage to work.
I have seen what happens when you plug 24 volts into a 12 volt aircraft. Blew the top off the battery box with enough force to wrap it around a 1" tall structural member and dent the skin outward for about 50% of the outline of lid.

[Geriaviator]

I was stuck on several occasions long, long ago but fortunately was a pupil of the Tiger Moth Handswing Academy. First lesson was no need to swing too hard, just enough to take the blade through the impulse click, if it didn't click the coupling needed unstuck or otherwise remedied. Gipsy Major and Cirrus in Austers etc were easy enough but opposite rotation Lycoming and Continental were not, until I was advised to stand BEHIND the prop. This enables swinging with the right hand while the left steadies you against the cowling. Prime as usual, pull through four blades, then 'contact' and off she goes.

[Clinton McKenzie]

A couple of matters have been mentioned that again point up the importance of systems knowledge. Some aircraft have impulse couplings fitted to both magnetos. Some have an impulse coupling fitted to just one. Some have no impulse couplings and have retard breakers instead. Some have starter ‘vibrators’. Some have electronic ignition systems. Some need to be primed by an electric pump. Some have 12volt batteries, some 24.

Without knowing these things and their implications, efforts to swing or jump start an aircraft engine may at best just result in bigger biceps and, at worst, death. Major engine or airframe damage is somewhere in between.

The place to learn these things is in the comfort of your lounge chair with a cup of coffee before the big trip, not as the sun is setting over you and your aircraft in the middle of nowhere. It may be that you resolve never to try to swing or jump start the aircraft, either because it will be futile or entail risks you are not prepared to take. But make that decision on an informed basis while not under pressure. And have a ‘Plan B’ for the (fortunately unlikely) event of being stuck in the middle of nowhere.

[megan]

Hand starting aeroplanes is as safe as you make itThere was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/613x768/pro_f68f6d89a2bed962bb19460d094be66256cc9c71.jpg

[deja vu]

There was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/613x768/pro_f68f6d89a2bed962bb19460d094be66256cc9c71.jpg
Technique seems fine, but I would suggest some form of footwear.

[Sunfish]

She should be behind the propeller.

[Gauges and Dials]

Interesting visual puzzle. If you stare at this picture long enough, eventually you will notice what appears to be an aircraft in it.

There was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/613x768/pro_f68f6d89a2bed962bb19460d094be66256cc9c71.jpg

[Pinky the pilot]

nteresting visual puzzle. If you stare at this picture long enough, eventually you will notice what appears to be an aircraft in it.

Good Heavens!:eek: So there is!!!:ooh:

[Duck Pilot]

Pinky,
Chief Pilot bilong yupla? Muli! when u workim brum brum? By any chance???? 👍👍👍👍👍👍

[machtuk]

Oh please God don't strike me blind now! -) :)

[Pinky the pilot]

Chief Pilot bilong yupla? Muli! when u workim brum brum?

Duck Pilot; The CP who did my endorsement training on the brum brums was Alan Yarnold, the then (and last, before Dz went bagarap) CP of Douglas Airways.

When the handswinging episode related above occurred, I was working for Simbu Aviation. Owner and CP was the now late Richard Rowe. And God rest his Soul!:sad:

[Global Aviator]

I’ve swung a few... Remember being taught how by a LAME! At the time never thought it would be useful.

Into the memory banks -

Bonanza, never flown it but swung it for a bloke, seem to remember something else needed to be done.

C182, easy.

PA31-350, now logic tells me I didn’t but memory tells me I did the right one a few times.

C210/205.

Somewhere in the memory banks I recall watching the rope method on a big radial.

Or have I been drinking the coolaide???????

[NutLoose]

Is she sucking in?

[Capt Fathom]

I remember watching a Baron get started in the wilds of PNG. Not a prop swing, but a u/s fuel pump. No problem, a coke can of fuel straight down the air intake and away she went!
At times, one must improvise!

[old,not bold]

I recall watching the rope method on a big radialAbu Dhabi's nice new airport, 1971 or so, scheduled DC3 service to Bahrain due to depart. Passengers waiting in the departure lounge, with a glass wall overlooking the apron and their aircraft 30m away. They are watching activities with keen interest.

The problem is that the left engine starter motor is, to be technical, f****d. We don't have a spare on station. Station Engineer, old school with a wealth of experience, has exhausted his entire repertoire of alternative fixes.

Except one. "OK, get the Landrover, and the ladder and length of rope in the store". I return with these, wondering WTH. He sets the ladder up to the front of the motor, and winds the rope clockwise 6 or 7 turns round the hub (or is it the boss?), which is shaped like a erect nipple for just this purpose. Then he comes down and manoeuvres the landrover so that it's at right angles to the hub, and ties the rope to the back of it. He tells the pilot to be ready, all switches on etc, to catch it if/when it fires. He tells me to drive the LR forward at a very brisk walking pace when he says "NOW" and keep going until the rope is clear. I get in, start up, he checks all clear and shouts "NOW".

OK, it took 3 practices to get it just right. But then we got the motor started and idling nicely. I walk towards the departure lounge door to collect the passengers, and see a line of faces up against the glass wall, with expressions ranging from disbelief to sheer terror. I go in and announce that the service is ready to go, sorry about the running engine while you are boarding, enjoy your flight and come again, please have your boarding cards ready. And out we all go; I have never seen before or since, a group of passengers so unenthusiastic about flying.

You can't do that with one of these jet contraptions.

[megan]

winds the rope clockwise 6 or 7 turns round the hubThink you forgot the "anti" prefix in one word there o,nb. One DC-3 approved method.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/417x363/proprope_797b5519b887f9873bd6dc9b645472d52bd75ead.gif

[Pearly White]

That CASA advice is for passengers in rpt and charter. Experimental aircraft have been using lithium batteries for years and some are specifically approved by engine manufacturers (eg: rotax/earthx). I fail to see how carrying a battery as a tool would be intended to be covered by CASA advice - any more than for carrying a spare lead acid battery.
It isn't. They're talking about "spare batteries" i.e. loose batteries, exposed terminals and all such attendant risks. Not battery packs, like yours, that are properly contained in a proper enclosure with no exposed terminals/

[old,not bold]

Think you forgot the "anti" prefix in one word thereWell damn it; you've got me..........I couldn't remember so I tossed a mental coin! For some reason I missed the clue in Post 32.

[India Four Two]

clockwise, anticlockwise - it depends which way you are looking! ;)

[Yaw String]

1984,Glasgow apron.
Attached company mini to starboard prop boss of DC3, by cargo straps.
Two attempts,in 1st gear,managed to spin the props,but did not achieve the object of the excercise!
Moral of the story..bloody stupid excercise!

[old,not bold]

Nah, you just didn't do it right........

[Okihara]

Think you forgot the "anti" prefix in one word there o,nb. One DC-3 approved method.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/417x363/proprope_797b5519b887f9873bd6dc9b645472d52bd75ead.gif

Unfortunately there's really nobody this short on the apron at MB, let alone three of them.

[olympus]

As a qualified member of the Chipmunk Prop Swingers Club, on a couple of occasions I was deputed to swing the (three-bladed) prop on Phil Meeson's Pitts. That second blade comes round b....y fast!!

[dash6]

As a fellow chipmunker,I was offered that task once.Went to look at it,prop was sharp as a carving knife,so offered to sit in while he swung it;He wouldn't.Before long,all our club members would go into hiding when Mr.Meeson arrived.

[Pinky the pilot]

I remember watching a Baron get started in the wilds of PNG. Not a prop swing, but a u/s fuel pump. No problem, a coke can of fuel straight down the air intake and away she went!
At times, one must improvise!

Vaguely remember hearing that story in the Club Dero one Friday (of course) evening.:suspect:
Even so, it is something to file away in the memory banks for future reference.

Capt Fathom; When and where did this happen? Curious as to know.