Helicopter max climb altitude

[The Range]

Hi, guys

What's the highest altitude a helicopter can climb?

[Vertical Freedom]

Hi, guys

What's the highest altitude a helicopter can climb?

Depends on which machine, all up weight, DA, updrafts, what You had for breakfast, luck, etc etc..........28,500'amsl for a filming job :eek:

[Ascend Charlie]

The current world record for absolute altitude achieved by a helicopter — 12,442 meters (40,820 feet), flown by a heavily modified SA 315 Lama — has stood for more than 45 years at this writing.

After starting the engine, they removed the starter motor to save weight.

Then when the engine flamed out at 40 squillion feet, they set the record for the world's highest autorotation, as there was no way to relight the engine.

PS you are too lazy to Gurgle the answer yourself?

[Robbo Jock]

Bit harsh AC, there's lots of stuff asked here that could be Gargoyled but where's the fun in that? All you get then is answers - no banter, no anecdotes, no handbags at dawn.

[Repos]

About thirty years after the record set by Jean Boulet on a SA315 B “Lama” helicopter, Fred North, professional pilot, takes an AS 350 B2 “Squirrel” to the fantastic altitude of 12954 m.

https://www.fred-north.com/record

[cavuman1]

Good to see you're still with us, VF! Is life treating you alright, Mate?

- Ed

[nomorehelosforme]

After starting the engine, they removed the starter motor to save weight.

Then when the engine flamed out at 40 squillion feet, they set the record for the world's highest autorotation, as there was no way to relight the engine.

PS you are too lazy to Gurgle the answer yourself?

AC,

As a matter of interest how did the auto end? Was there any damage?

[nomorehelosforme]

About thirty years after the record set by Jean Boulet on a SA315 B “Lama” helicopter, Fred North, professional pilot, takes an AS 350 B2 “Squirrel” to the fantastic altitude of 12954 m.

https://www.fred-north.com/record

Repos,

That was an interesting story to read after a hard days work Thanks for posting!

[The Range]

Bit harsh AC, there's lots of stuff asked here that could be Gargoyled but where's the fun in that? All you get then is answers - no banter, no anecdotes, no handbags at dawn.

That's it!

[Vertical Freedom]

Good to see you're still with us, VF! Is life treating you alright, Mate?

- Ed
G'day Ed...thanks for asking Mate, doing awesomely & having a ball, hope You are too :ok:

[RINKER]

Hi vf I remember from my pplh about oxygen use at altitude.
sorry to ask a daft question but did you need to use oxygen at that altitude.
R

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Hi vf I remember from my pplh about oxygen use at altitude.
sorry to ask a daft question but did you need to use oxygen at that altitude.
R

Over 40 000' you need pressure oxygen, a demand system won't cope. On the jet at FL420 we are required to keep our masks strung round our necks.

SND

[Fareastdriver]

Certainly a daft question.

Generally speaking oxygen is recommended when flying about 10,000 ft in an unpressurised aircraft.

[ShyTorque]

Over 40 000' you need pressure oxygen, a demand system won't cope. On the jet at FL420 we are required to keep our masks strung round our necks.

SND

We were trained at RAF North Luffenham how to use a pressure breathing system. It's a very strange sensation, being the opposite of normal breathing.

[Spunk]

For the past 25 years I’ve been operating close to sea level. The highest I’ve been to in a helicopter (Bell407) was up to FL110 for a photo mission. Didn’t like it :=

[ShyTorque]

In a previous part of my career we were sometimes required to climb as high as the aircraft could hover without breaking any engine limits and remain there for some time (usually about 10,000 feet or so). One night we were required to be a little higher, about 14,000 feet. I suddenly noticed that the orange sodium streetlights below us no longer looked quite so orange, and my vision became mainly monochrome, like black and white TV. I realised it was likely to be an early symptom of hypoxia. Thankfully, we were able to descend shortly afterwards and as soon as we had gone down a couple of thousand feet, my colour vision returned to normal.

If my memory hasn't completely failed me (and it might have), I think at 14,000 feet the air (and oxygen) density is only about 55% of that at sea level.

[RINKER]

Yes 10,000 feet was what I recall. Never been that high in rotary.

[Cornish Jack]

Great height and helicopters is, for many of us, NOT a good mix. Did a height climb air test in a Sycamore in Aden and felt distinctly vertiginous from 1000' until back there in descent. Much more relaxed at 500' and below. One of my 'Bosses' on Whirlwinds said the only way he could manage the required 10.000' air test climb was to imagine an enormous pair of swept wings attached, out of sight, to the lower fuselage. A lot to do with low speed - 60 knots at 10K feels like a hover.

[Ascend Charlie]

Vertical ref can tell you what it's like at 23,000'++, all I have been to is 17,000 in a Huey, the blades going Wok..swish...wok..swish... Minimum speed was about 40kt, Vne was around 50kt so the envelope was substantially reduced. Then when we rolled the throttle off, we had to hold a large amount of collective in to keep the rotor RPM in limits.

[Agile]

can anybody provide some technical insight about the factor of high altitude flying in a helicopter,

my experience is only with a H300 at 10,000ft and AS350 at 12,000tf

reduced power margin especially in the piston machine, but a lot can still be done if you remain very smooth
blades having a much more frequent and drier slapping sound
passengers tend to fall asleep at the back especially young ones
VNE coming much sooner (at least the pre VNE vibration coming sooner)
control margin decreasing quickly away from the max rate of climb speed (especially as you get to 0 rate of climb)
very easy to over NG if you decrease altitude fast ( I have yet to fully understand that one)


any other factors?

[ApolloHeli]

can anybody provide some technical insight about the factor of high altitude flying in a helicopter,

any other factors?

In a turbine, you'll always be Ng limited so depending on helicopter type P2 bleed / heating not allowed if you're landing or taking off with max power etc.

[Vertical Freedom]

Hi vf I remember from my pplh about oxygen use at altitude.

sorry to ask a daft question but did you need to use oxygen at that altitude.

R


G'day R....depends on the countries regs? Usually above 10,000' You've gotta be sucking on O2 if there for over 30mins. Other countries same deal but starts at 14,000'. But also depends on Your Health, smoker, etc....seen many a Pilots get problems above 15,000' even on O2? Also depends on how acclimatioed You are.....when I was flying to 20,000'+ 2, 3 times a day, sleeping at 10,000' every night then landing at 18,000 'for fuel staging without O2 was easy with nil effects, even when I camped there (@18,000' due weather), drunk a half bottle of Ruksi that night & still no effect the next morning ;)


If not acclimatised to high altitudes...I'd be donned O2 continuously operating above 10,000', if You're an asthmatic or a smoker then start sucking above 8,000' :ok:

[Vertical Freedom]

In a turbine, you'll always be Ng limited so depending on helicopter type P2 bleed / heating not allowed if you're landing or taking off with max power etc.

Seriously.....Ng limited hmmmm not in any American build donks :ooh:
Seriously.....P2 bleed dingle bits do NOT need to be off for take-off, nor landings, use is 'as required' with a caution that performance is degraded (singles that I fly) :ouch:

[ShyTorque]

Seriously.....Ng limited hmmmm not in any American build donks :ooh:
Seriously.....P2 bleed dingle bits do NOT need to be off for take-off, nor landings, use is 'as required' with a caution that performance is degraded (singles that I fly) :ouch:

Agreed, Sometimes it's better to keep the airbleeds on, such as when flying in cold/humid conditions. The chance of the canopy misting up near the ground can be far more serious than losing a little power. I know of one fatal takeoff accident where canopy misting was the cause and another where it was a likely cause.

[Fareastdriver]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that high.

[Photonic]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that high.

Well, photography of tall things can sometimes call for it. Back in the early 1980's I was hired to shoot photos for a book on Mexico's national parks and "natural wonders." My publisher wanted some shots of Volcan Popocateptl outside Mexico City, so in addition to the ground visit, we hired a Hughes 500 (if I remember right) and pilot out of Aeropuerto Benito Juárez.

It was a beautiful clear day, flying over to the volcano with the door removed on my side. To get a good angle on the volcano, the pilot kept climbing higher as we slowly circled it. The mountain is 17,802 ft. high. I wasn't paying attention to the gauges but I know we didn't get high enough to see into the caldera, so I'd estimate we reached maybe 14,000-15,000 feet. I remember at one point the pilot said we had set a local altitude record for helicopters. That surprised me; I didn't think we were up that high. The ground looks abstract and difficult to judge height once you get high enough. I do remember how cold it got. I hadn't thought ahead about what it would be like with the door off at that altitude, and wasn't dressed for it. Lesson learned for later air-photo flights in mountainous areas.

I don't remember any ill effects from the altitude. We weren't up there for more than a few minutes, and I had been staying for a couple of weeks in a hotel in Mexico City at 7,000 ft. I guess I was partially acclimated, and so was the pilot working out of that airport.

[Fareastdriver]

I was thinking about 10,000ft. AGL.

[Thomas coupling]

Fascinating reading!

"...... Because of the ice and clouds, the test pilot had no outside visibility. Attitude instruments had been removed to lighten the helicopter. Boulet looked up through the canopy at the light spot in the clouds created by the sun, and used that for his only visual reference until he broke out of the clouds......"

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/21-june-1972/

[MightyGem]

The highest I’ve been to in a helicopter (Bell407) was up to FL110 for a photo mission. Didn’t like it
Once flew a Jetranger at 10,000', doors off. Didn't like it either, especially when encountering some light turbulence. :uhoh:

[retoocs]

I've been up at 15,000' in a S-92 and a Blackhawk for flight testing. I can tell you the S-92 does not like to do an engine restart at 15,000'. We ended up descending to 13,000' where it did restart.

[twinstar_ca]

Some great reads here. What about Link Luckett and his Hiller 12E.... I remember that as a kid. Will have to research a bit... :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that high.

We were looking to see if mountain goats really did live in the clouds.

[cattletruck]

Been to the very top of the Matterhorn (14,692 feet) in an AS350 (Air Zermatt). Brilliant blue skies and the machine handled it easily.
Unfortunately staying in the village for several days did my head in (migraines).

[megan]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that highDoing the first turbine endorsement (Huey) one exercise was attempting to get into vortex ring at 14,000, never did, but had to wear parachute for anything over 5,000. Training in the USN oxygen was required above 10,000 day and 5,000 night. FW instrument flying training was done between 10 and 20,000, never used oxygen as found the mask so uncomfortable, never had a problem, 20YO and fit I guess. Some of the US Army chaps I flew with in country had a fear of anything above 1,500 because of MGB failure worries, took one such lad to 16,000 in a Huey trying to quell his fears. Regularly flew IMC at 10,000 on transits in 212, 412, 76, LSALT in our area being 6,000 though airport at each end being at sea level.

[MikeNYC]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that high.

Having spent a bit of time on filming jobs at 10k+ AGL in helicopters, I disagree.

[T18]

Namaste VF

I keep looking at the threads for your contribution, glad to hear you are well, can you give us a clue as to your whereabouts and what you are up to?
Missing the sleek trim photographs of.........helicopters, hope Mrs VF is well.

Regards,
T18

[rottenjohn]

Repos,

That was an interesting story to read after a hard days work Thanks for posting!

Interesting is one way of putting it. Another way might be hard to actually believe. Reckons he was in the air for an hour and a half after leaving with 25% fuel? I’d need to see better evidence than that piece of writing.

[212man]

Interesting is one way of putting it. Another way might be hard to actually believe. Reckons he was in the air for an hour and a half after leaving with 25% fuel? I’d need to see better evidence than that piece of writing.
It does seem a bit contradictory unless there is a dramatic reduction in fuel burn with altitude to compensate. Looks like about 180 l/hr is average cruise consumption, so to stretch 132 litres to 1:35 (albeit with about 10+ min in autorotation), looks like a tall order. That said, I flew one type where with full fuel you had about 3 hours endurance at sea level in the cruise, but climbing to 10,000 ft the endurance was now 3:25 even after the climb fuel consumption (fuel burn dropped from 320 kg/hr to 275 kg/hr), so I'm not sure how much lower the consumption would have continued to reduce if we'd climbed higher.

[Vertical Freedom]

Interesting is one way of putting it. Another way might be hard to actually believe. Reckons he was in the air for an hour and a half after leaving with 25% fuel? I’d need to see better evidence than that piece of writing.

I guess fuel burn reduces with altitude...note to self; I wonder why airliners fly so high :ouch:

[Vertical Freedom]

It does seem a bit contradictory unless there is a dramatic reduction in fuel burn with altitude to compensate. Looks like about 180 l/hr is average cruise consumption, so to stretch 132 litres to 1:35 (albeit with about 10+ min in autorotation), looks like a tall order. That said, I flew one type where with full fuel you had about 3 hours endurance at sea level in the cruise, but climbing to 10,000 ft the endurance was now 3:25 even after the climb fuel consumption (fuel burn dropped from 320 kg/hr to 275 kg/hr), so I'm not sure how much lower the consumption would have continued to reduce if we'd climbed higher.

In a B3+ & e I was sucking ~90lph above 20,000' & 70lph @ 28,000' hmmmmm :eek: given 540litres usable petrol tank @ 25% = 135litres (not 132, every drop counts at extreme alt.) so way more than 2hrs of noise time at those scary heights is very achievable :ugh: in a B2 fuel burn even less...so what part is hard to believe again?? :confused:

rehash; wonder why airlines soar up to 35,000' surely not just for the view :ooh:

Keeping it real....do it into wind whenever possible (except pea)

[Vertical Freedom]

Namaste VF

I keep looking at the threads for your contribution, glad to hear you are well, can you give us a clue as to your whereabouts and what you are up to?
Missing the sleek trim photographs of.........helicopters, hope Mrs VF is well.

Regards,
T18

G'day Mate....thanks, all is well! Pretty busy checking & training Mountain & Long-lining in the alps :ok: Love to post more on that ToW thread but it got to hard with slash & burn tactics removing to many posts, rewordings & photo deletions.......see my thread count, I'm still hobbled on half a stump :(

All the very Best to You T18 ;)

[Vertical Freedom]

Having spent a bit of time on filming jobs at 10k+ AGL in helicopters, I disagree.

I'll double it or nothing...no wait triple it Mate; it surely is a whopping adventure up there albeit bloody COLD :8

[RINKER]

Hi VF
Sorry I missed your reply I’ve been busy with work
That explains it well. I was told O2 above 10K on my pplh
but thought you guys doing it all the time may not use it all the time as you explained.
Unlikely I’ll ever be that high.

Thanks R

[RVDT]

Be a little careful with Fred North's "record" - it is a little "shy" on "evidence". i.e. unofficial.

[Jimmy.]

Unless you are gong to look at something that is 10,000ft. plus there seem little point of going that high.

Flying to an oil rig 180NM away with predominant tailwind of more than 30kt and no refuel offshore, climbing to up to 9000 or 10000ft coming back to take at least a crosswind makes sense for me.

[Paul Cantrell]

I've been high twice in an R22... Once going from Hartford, CT back to Boston... There were really high tail winds aloft so I climbed to, I think it was 11,500 ( this was in the eighties, so I don't remember exactly ). We had LORAN in those machines so I know I was doing 140 knots over the ground.. which is pretty good for an R22. When I got handed off to Boston the controller asked aircraft type and did the ATC equivalent of a double take when I told him R22.

Bringing an R22 home from the factory I went high in West Texas for the same reason. In that case every time I would push the stick forward the entire aircraft would shudder and the stick would push back, even though there was plenty of stick travel left. After a few repetitions I finally thought to check the VNE chart... Realized THAT'S what retreating blade stall feels like in an R22... ( Tim Tucker at Robinson always said retreating blade stall at sea level is 150 in an R22... And I mostly fly at sea level... So it took a while to connect the temperature and altitude to the fact that I was flying way too fast.)

Finally coming out of White Plaines ( just north of New York City) IFR in the B206L3 I fly ( probably in the late 90s?) IFR, ATC climbed me to 12 for a little while before turning me east and letting me descend... But I was IMC so I don't remember anything unusual except the hands on the altimeter looking a little strange... ( and that it took a while to climb that high... I was heavy with fuel ).

The only time I found it really disturbing was that first time... The horizon was in an unusual position on the windshield, and I remember that my attitude flying sucked. No attitude indicators in R22s in those days, so that made it a little more... challenging to keep the machine level.

I guess that's pretty pathetic compared to VF!

[fijdor]

I surveyed (bird towing) the top of the Chilean Andes from Copiapo Chile to North of Antofagasta from West to East to the border of Argentina and back everyday for almost 4 months (time off in between) Did that with a B205 -17 and regular blades (single hyd) the everage fuel burn at close to sea level is about 610 to 615 lbs an hour, Le whole job was done at between 20,000 to 25,000ft DA and the average fuel burn at that altitude was about 400 to 415 lbs an hrs. I know the maximum altitude 204 blades will go to, but the T53-17 would have had no problems going higher.

JD

[KG86]

As an experienced rotary operator, I offer my thoughts.

Jet engines become more efficient as height increases (at least in the height band in which we operate), but rotors become less efficient. So the optimum operating altitude in still air will be different for every engine/rotor combination.

The expression 'in still air' is very significant, in my opinion. The greatest factor in efficiency is, by far, wind velocity. Go high when there is a tail wind component, and low when there is a head wind component. The choice of height in the tail wind option will depend on wind velocities at height, rather then engine/rotor efficiencies.