VET Loans Cap For aviation students increasing from $104,440 to $150,000 in 2020!

[ReubenM]

VET Loans Cap For aviation students increasing from 104,440 to $150,000 in 2020 (can’t post link but it’s in Australian Aviation)

In what world do you need 150k to become qualified for a job as a pilot?

Numerous points this raises among the following:

1. There needs to be strict criteria for accessing VET Loans and not set by the schools that are the financial beneficiaries. Things like age restrictions, minimum academic standard, psychometric testing etc. I personally think it should go back to how I was where you had to self fund PPL and show a little bit of aptitude and determination to pay for it yourself.

2. Prices of student loan funded schools schools should have pricing competitive with their private counterparts. Since when does an instrument rating cost nearly $40,000?? Is it coincidence that the costs of all of a schools courses maxes out the cap? I’m expecting prices to get even more ridiculous with an even higher cap.

3. Schools need to sit down and give candidates a realistic picture of the future to avoid disillusioned debt ridden unemployable students 6-12 months down the line. None of this “Boeing estimates 800,000 pilots will be required in 20 years and therefore airlines are desperately are crying out for you on your graduation bs and you’ll be paid mega bucks etc etc.” Too many people are looking at the #instapilots and thinking it must be the life of luxury.

There needs to be an enquiry into VET Loans. I’ve seen 60 year olds accessing VET loans when there is absolutely no chance of getting a job let alone paying it back.

Dont get me wrong I'm all for providing opportunities for people however we are the taxpayers who fund this so we need to be sure it’s going into the hands organizations (who aren’t taking advantage of the cap limit) who have selected capable students who will actually be able to fill roles in the industry and pay back what they have borrowed.

What are your thoughts?

[Berealgetreal]

Who in their right mind would take up a career in flying? That’s my thought.

[PoppaJo]

The large proportion of the businesses operating under the scheme, aren’t that great unfortunately and are not highly spoken about within the industry. Sadly all the kids leaving school get sucked in. Try telling them to invest in quality training self funded flying (get a job, self fund) and plug away for 10-15 odd years to get the license. Well no, they want it all with a few years. Also they fail to understand once you get some form of job, plan on 50 grand for the first decade. What’s the rush, I mean forget Aviation for the first 10-20 years after leaving school, get into some form of high paying field, buy the house and nice car, invest in property, then go into the flying business with wealth behind you and no debt.

I do think quality training is important, for your resume and skills. Quality is quite hard to come by, and you need to go west or the north east to get it. You also need to pay for it which is the issue for most. But you will become a better pilot.

[Global Aviator]

With the VET fee is it like HECS where it’s paid back when you start working?

[Colonel_Klink]

So I guess now all flying schools who have access to these VET loans will start charging $150k for a CPL plus the extra $30-$40k for an Instrument or Instructor Rating.

These are significant loans that are being imposed on 18/19 year old school leavers - who probably don’t really grasp the magnitude of that sort of debt.

Add into the equation the very low completion rates of some of these schools - I fear that this will end in tears for a lot of people.

Obviously the flip side is the significant costs to become a commercial pilot nowadays, and this will enable some people who may have always dreamt of becoming a pilot (but didn’t have the financial capacity to do the training) the opportunity to do so. Again it would be difficult for people at those young ages to be saving the sorts of money required for commercial licenses.

Unfortunately, I feel as though the cons of this far outweigh any positivities.

[thorn bird]

Reuben M,

"In what world do you need 150k to become qualified for a job as a pilot?"

About half that in the USA, wonder why?

Lots of engineers and from what I have observed, lots of young blokes and girls under training, wonder why?

In the USA around a thousand pages of clear, concise, plain English regulations that somehow manage to produce a much better "Safety" outcome than we do with thousands of pages of legalise regulations, which it would appear on evidence, that even the legislator itself doesn't understand.

Twas ever thus, Australia has taken the finest traditions of British bureaucracy and refined them into an Art form.

[Horatio Leafblower]

My tip is that the fee cap is a direct result of lobbying from Virgin, Qantas and Rex who have convinced the Pollies that they can fend off the collapse of General Aviation by putting self-funded studes through their branded Pilot Training programs.

I am not sure if trainees at the QF or VA colleges will be sponsored "cadets" or merely "trainees".

Pilot training to CPL + MECIR in the USA seems to run to about USD $80,000 which is about AUD $120,000, plus sundries (headsets, books, multiple gold bars etc)

At my non-VET non-RTO Part 141 school in country NSW it will cost you about AUD $70,000 for a 200-hour CPL (with MECIR) and all our instructors are flying ME IFR charter when they're not instructing ie: they have done the job they are training you for (unlike my instructors when I trained 25 years ago).

...despite the lower cost and better training outcomes, for most people we are "too expensive" if they can't access VET Student loans.

[Left 270]

Horatio, do you have any idea as to what the costs for yourself would be to provide VET?

[gtseraf]

the cynic in me sees this will result in flying training becoming more expensive, rather than more affordable for the average Joe. The First Time Homeowners scheme is a good illustration of this, every time the govt announced an increase in the scheme, new house packages, magially, went up by the same amount.

Government subsidies are good, n theory, but in practice tend to end up as wealth distribution schemes and the target of the subsidy does not benefit.

[neville_nobody]

The large proportion of the businesses operating under the scheme, aren’t that great unfortunately and are not highly spoken about within the industry. Sadly all the kids leaving school get sucked in. Try telling them to invest in quality training self funded flying (get a job, self fund) and plug away for 10-15 odd years to get the license. Well no, they want it all with a few years. Also they fail to understand once you get some form of job, plan on 50 grand for the first decade. What’s the rush, I mean forget Aviation for the first 10-20 years after leaving school, get into some form of high paying field, buy the house and nice car, invest in property, then go into the flying business with wealth behind you and no debt.


You don't want to be starting out in professional aviation at 40. You really need to get started somewhere in your 20's.

[PoppaJo]

Most self funding (myself being one) did not go into employment until early 30s. That’s 15 years from leaving school, plenty of opportunities to save up.

I didn’t get the first job employment until 38. Have nearly racked up 2 decades on a narrow body and on the verge of calling it a day. I could have retired 10 years ago had I not changed fields though. I don’t blame my kids at all for having no interest at all in becoming a pilot.

I can’t even think to imagine being young 20s with a 150k bounty over your head going into an industry paying poverty wages...and foxbat time.

[Global Aviator]

How are these loans paid back?

Serious question I have no idea. Is it like HECS?

Or?

[machtuk]

It's a corrupt crazy world we live in these days! Those sort of dollars is staggering! Someone is making a killing!
Im only glad none of my offspring got interested in flying, I'm grateful for that!

[Kiwiconehead]

How are these loans paid back?

Serious question I have no idea. Is it like HECS?


Same way

HECS-HELP, FEE-HELP and VET Students loans are all the same thing for different types of study.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1617/Quick_Guides/HELP

[Horatio Leafblower]

Horatio, do you have any idea as to what the costs for yourself would be to provide VET?

Left 270
Yes I have a pretty good idea, and that is the main reason we don't do it.
Additionally, new VSL providers need to deliver the qualification for two years before you can get approved for funding.

[Left 270]

Do the increased prices charged by the VET schools seem justified by the associated funding costs?

[ramble on]

From the thread about a flying school owner making AFR Rich List....

“Is there a serious innuendo that certain flying schools are stripping students of VET fees while not genuinely able to train them.

That seems like a really big story for any investigative journalist worth their salt and possibly worthy of gaol time for perpetrators against our young.

A decent start point would be to look at training capability and assets for training output of the school versus the students on the books to see if there was any genuine capability or even intention to train them.

Look at reputable institutions - and their capabilities as a barometer. What are the decent Melbourne based training colleges? How many aircraft, instructors and daily and weekly training slots do they have per student.

Back of a drink coaster: - a school with 10 aircraft
20 training slots per day
200 flights per week
10 instructors
5 flights per week per student
Does 40 students per week seem reasonable?
It does to me......for a bloody busy flying school.
So it would be reasonable for them to hold themselves out to 200 students with VET fees as being able to train them?

Perhaps some smelly stuff in here for you Byron et al that might actually help some youngsters in trouble through leeches in the industry.....”

[glenb]

You have to be 21 years of age to access it.!!!

Simple, Tick, Effective, Tick, Accountable. Tick.

Solve many of the issues.

[Climb150]

Horatio,
The 80k USD price tag is for 260 hours, 25 hours multi PIC and CFI course.

That is whats quoted by ATP Flying School for their "0 to Airline pilot" program.

Take away the CFI course and the price drops by 8k. Take away the multi PIC and it goes down another 7.5k. If you want to price compare to Aus then cut 60 hours off the total and its now 12k less. So to compare with a Aus 141 school it would be 80-8-7.5-12=52.5k and in Aussie dollars $76 000.

Thats an apples to apples comparison.

[Climb150]

I have just read that it a actually includes CFI, CFII and MEI. So you can cut another 5k USD off the total. Now its 70k Aussie dollars

[Global Aviator]

So it’s like the old HECS debt. Don’t pay back until working, earning and paying tax?

So 70k self financed or 140k with a gubment loan.

****e I know people who went to Uni 20 years ago that still have HECS debts...

[thorn bird]

A question for Glenb as I know he's been through the mill.

What would be a reasonable estimate of the cost to gain a CAR 142 approval assessed to include
realistic figures for "Time", at a reasonable hourly rate, spent producing all the manuals required, CASA fees etc?

I have heard some pretty incredible figures bandied about, but never heard of anyone actually costing the whole process.

I imagine that should be considered a Capital cost and amortised in the cost structure.

In the USA independent flying instructors can teach without an AOC and indeed train a very high percentage of pilots. They train to the requirements of part 61, all ninety odd pages of it.

Part 141 in the USA is akin to our Part 42 in that they must be approved, integrated schools, where a reduction in total hours to achieve the end licence is available, if the standard can be met.

Part 142 in the USA is a whole different kettle of fish than Australia's and deals mostly with the high end simulator outfits.