Props with less than 50 seats

[Cautious Optimist]

I'm just wondering why there are no turboprop aircraft with less than 50 seats built anymore? I can't help but think there must be tens if not hundreds of airports around the world set to be deprived of routes because they cannot sustain the jump to higher capacity aircraft once existing aircraft are retired, of which most such types are now "coffin dodgers":

70 seats
ATR 72
DHC-8-Q400

50 seats
ATR 42
DHC-8-Q300
Fokker 50
Saab 2000

30 seats
British Aerospace Jetstream 41
DHC-8-Q200
Dornier 328-100
Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia
Saab 340

20 seats
Beech 1900D
British Aerospace Jetstream 32
DHC-6 Twin Otter
Dornier 228-200
Embraer EMB-110 Bandeirante
Fairchild Swearingen SA-227 Metro
Let L-410 Turbolet

Bold = in production

On the one hand, there must be a reason that turboprop aircraft are dying, on the other, there must be a golden opportunity for a niche manufacturer to corner the market?!

[rog747]

New Twin Otters are still available - A company bought the DHC rights to make them iirc.

[DaveReidUK]

There is also talk of resurrecting Dornier 328 production.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'm just wondering why there are no turboprop aircraft with less than 50 seats built anymore? I can't help but think there must be tens if not hundreds of airports around the world set to be deprived of routes because they cannot sustain the jump to higher capacity aircraft once existing aircraft are retired, of which most such types are now "coffin dodgers":

70 seats
ATR 72
DHC-8-Q400

50 seats
ATR 42
DHC-8-Q300
Fokker 50
Saab 2000

30 seats
British Aerospace Jetstream 41
DHC-8-Q200
Dornier 328-100
Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia
Saab 340

20 seats
Beech 1900D
British Aerospace Jetstream 32
DHC-6 Twin Otter
Dornier 228-200
Embraer EMB-110 Bandeirante
Fairchild Swearingen SA-227 Metro
Let L-410 Turbolet

Bold = in production

On the one hand, there must be a reason that turboprop aircraft are dying, on the other, there must be a golden opportunity for a niche manufacturer to corner the market?!

Do228 still in production as is the BN2T, 20 or so years ago the skies were full of the likes of SF340's, Do328's, Shed360's, Bombardier might have shelved production of the shorter DHC8 series but at least ATR have been smart enough to continue with the ATR42

[rog747]

Do228 still in production, and at least ATR have been smart enough to continue with the ATR42

Word on the Pprunmour network is LGW want to can ATR ops.....true?

[chevvron]

Word on the Pprunmour network is LGW want to can ATR ops.....true?
I'm sure Blackbushe would be only too happy to handle them; Farnborough can't take them if they're on scheduled ops but one off charters would be OK.
Recently I've seen several ATRs going RH downwind for 09R at Heathrow; most unusual.(Live just outside Woking)

[treadigraph]

Chevvron, the ATRs you've seen going into Heathrow are probably FlyBe Dash 8s, they have several Heathrow services each day now from Newquay and elsewhere.

[pax britanica]

Treadigraph they are indeed dash *s and its nice to hear a turbo prop occasionally climbing out to the South West over where I live. I read some where -probably here- that they are tolerated at big airports because they can match the normal arrival speed of jets and so dont disrupt sequences whereas the ATRs would struggle

[DaveReidUK]

Treadigraph they are indeed dash *s and its nice to hear a turbo prop occasionally climbing out to the South West over where I live. I read some where -probably here- that they are tolerated at big airports because they can match the normal arrival speed of jets and so dont disrupt sequences whereas the ATRs would struggle

I doubt that it's performance-related - more likely just a case of none of the UK ATR operators being interested in operating them to Heathrow.

Air France have operated both ATR42 and ATR72 services to LHR in the past.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I doubt that it's performance-related - more likely just a case of none of the UK ATR operators being interested in operating them to Heathrow.

Air France have operated both ATR42 and ATR72 services to LHR in the past.

Brymon operated DHC6's, DHC7's & DHC8's in/out LHR, Euroair operated Budgies on the CAX/DND route, KLM F50's on the RTM route, Air UK SD360's on HUY/NWI route & F27's on the GCI route, the list in endless, LHR tower particularly enjoyed the DHC7's if only to see how short a distance it could stop and vacate the runway in.

[DaveReidUK]

Brymon operated DHC6's, DHC7's & DHC8's in/out LHR, Euroair operated Budgies on the CAX/DND route, KLM F50's on the RTM route, Air UK SD360's on HUY/NWI route & F27's on the GCI route, the list in endless, LHR tower particularly enjoyed the DHC7's if only to see how short a distance it could stop and vacate the runway in.

I remember many years ago standing in front of a bunch of controllers at West Drayton and saying, with as straight a face as I could muster, that the Shorts 330/360 weren't really such a PITA as they thought, because they could maintain cruise speed all the way up to the outer marker. :O

[treadigraph]

Also recall Air Anglia PA-31s and Belgian Beech 99s (Publi Air?) operating services in to LHR in the late 70s.

[DaveReidUK]

As an aside, the smallest aircraft used on a scheduled passenger service at LHR was almost certainly the Piper Cherokee that Westward Airways substituted for their Islander just before they ceased operating the LHR/LGW shuttle in 1970.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Also recall Air Anglia PA-31s and Belgian Beech 99s (Publi Air?) operating services in to LHR in the late 70s.

Yes, I remember the Air Anglia Navajo's on the LHR route, we used to look after them when I worked at Eastern Radar.

And don't forget the LGW/LHR Airlink, used to watch the choppers starting up of a morning beside the LGW beehive but I seem to recall that that service went fixed-wing for a period

[DaveReidUK]

And don't forget the LGW/LHR Airlink, used to watch the choppers starting up of a morning beside the LGW beehive but I seem to recall that that service went fixed-wing for a period

I don't recall any use of F/W aircraft on the LHR/LGW service after Westward ceased the above-mentioned Islander operation.

Given that Airlink was a JV between BCAL, BA Helicopters and the BAA, I'd be surprised if they ever used anything other than a variety of S-61s (mostly G-LINK, of course).

[pax britanica]

I dont remember the ATRs -shame as I like their amazing take off performance I used to see in and around the Caribbean in American eagle days . Some of the others mentioned really were along time ago and different LHR to today altho the KLM/NLM F50s were relatively recent and I remeber hearing at least on one occasion a controller asking one to head for Burnham on its Brookmans Park deparature as soon as it passed the airfird boundary to clear the way for a folowing southbound.

of course for real nostalgia we have to go back to the days when around 7 am the lovely rumble of the KARAir DC6 departing for Helsinki as the last piston airliner(freighter) to serve LHR

[treadigraph]

Oh yes, the Kar Air DC-6, a swing tail as I recall. Accompanied my sister on the tube up to Heathrow very early one morning when I was 15 or 16, having said "bye" at passport control, zipped up to the top of car park 3 and was astonished to see the old girl grumbling her way into the air. Saturday morning I think and there was one of Fred's Electras later on that morning.

[Harry Wayfarers]

One night shift in Lyneham ATC it was my turn to be night watchman, i.e. I was the only one awake, when I took a phone call from Chivenor who were launching a yellow Wessex, destination Northolt with a new born baby in an incubator destined for a London hospital, asking if we could look after it, between Devon and London we were the only ATC unit active at the time and no sooner had I passed Chivenor our frequencies than the aircraft was calling us.I PDQ kicked a controller out of his pit and to cut a much longer story short at something like 3am of a morning we needed to put the Wessex straight thru LHR's zone at 1,500', it didn't have enough oxygen for the incubator to take anything other than a direct track to Northolt, for quite a while we scoured for the appropriate frequency to call LHR on only to learn that there is no such frequency because one simply isn't allowed to penetrate the LHR zone at any time day or night … Right, watch this … “Continue on track, squawk Mayday, and contact D&D West Drayton on 121.5/243.0 and straight thru LHR's zone it went :)

[Cautious Optimist]

Great story there Harry!

To go back to the original subject, I forgot D228 and DHC6 are back in production, that said, they seem to be getting purchased more as utility aircraft rather than for airline operation, there is still a huge gap?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Great story there Harry!

To go back to the original subject, I forgot D228 and DHC6 are back in production, that said, they seem to be getting purchased more as utility aircraft rather than for airline operation, there is still a huge gap?


There is, to replace their significant fleet of SF340's Loganair are being forced yo increase their capacity from circa mid 30's to 50 seats ATR42's, surely if their route network could sustain 50 seats then they'd have done it before now.

I think the Do228NG's are being produced in India and assembled in Germany, Aurigny have re-equipped with them given a limited choce to replace their BN3 fleet with, I think their was a mob in Turkey looking at re-manufacturing Do328's but apparently that fell thru.

OK companies like Short and Dornier have fallen by the wayside, Saab decided to withdraw from manufacturing civvie aircraft, Embraer are still going and apparently the EMB120 was quite a good aircraft, perhaps one day Embraer may see the light to reintroduce manufacturing a circa 30 seats turboprop.

[N707ZS]

The Cessna 408 might fill some of the gap but only until its in full production. The list price is 5.5 million $ so might not be in the price range for some customers, at least not until a second hand supply might be available.

[Wycombe]

FlyBe Dash 8s, they have several Heathrow services each day now from Newquay and elsewhere.

Currently I think there are NQY x 4, EDI x 5, ABZ x 3, GCI x1 and IOM x1 Flybe Dash rotations per day in and out of LHR. Who'd have thought it a few years ago.

[Cymmon]

Didn't Air Anglia operate the Douglas DC-3 into Heathrow for a while from Humberside/Norwich?

Also just as an aside would Combi ATR's work out on Loganair's network?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Didn't Air Anglia operate the Douglas DC-3 into Heathrow for a while from Humberside/Norwich?

Also just as an aside would Combi ATR's work out on Loganair's network?


'Lease Air', the forerunner of the original Eastern Airways, operated a DC3/C47 out of HUY, at the time I worked for a LGW operator, we had a DC10 with blown tyres on the rugby charters in/out oif CWL, we had a BAC1-11 at LGW sitting around but Ops had gone thru the dimensions and the wheels and jacks wouldn't fit, I only remarked to Ops as a joke that there was a DC3 sitting out on the tarmac, next thing we'd chartered it, if only everybody had had cameras back in those days, a DC3 rescuing a DC10 in CWL!

[condor17]

Yep , Air Angular did operate DC3s through LHR - NWI . Unfortunately missed out , but staff ticket rides on both the Navajos and the later scheduled F27s .
CO , don't forget the dead list 50s ...HS Budgie aka 748 . And 70s , BAE Parrot aka ATP .
Harry H , good work there . Was indeed threat to life , so a perfectly used ' Mayday ' call .

rgds condor .