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covec
19th Oct 2019, 22:55
Hello folks.

I binned some instructing in a C152 t'other day.

Runway in use 05. Winds 020 17G27 with mod low level turb. circa 500ft.

XW therefore is 11kts: appreciate that.

I think HoT pi55ed off.

Do I need to grow some? 🤔🤣

djpil
20th Oct 2019, 00:15
Quite a few considerations but I wouldn't criticise anyone for making that decision however I would criticise that HoT who is perhaps influenced too much by an accountant.

Would the student have got any benefit from the lesson?

I see some instructors here who take aeroplanes out in conditions like that and I wonder if the only reason might be that they don't get paid if they don't fly.

Foxbats are common trainers here (I haven't flown one ) and I see that the POH for the A-22LS states the crosswind as a limit (rather than the usual "maximum demonstrated") of 14 kts yet on their website https://www.foxbat.com.au/a22ls_dimensions_performance it has this statement: "Novice/expert crosswind limit 11/22 kts". Interesting interpretation and perhaps useful guidance for instructors.

Some flight schools get reputations for not treating their students well - they get that reputation for a reason.

I have quite a few hours in the 150 with a max demonstrated crosswind of 15 kts and I see that for the 152 I used to fly it is only 12 kts. I usually fly a Decathlon these days and I encourage new instructors to be conservative with the wind conditions. My HoT has never disagreed with me. For experienced instructors I generally refer to winds like that (17G27) as not pleasant, hard work, and depending on the lesson the student probably won't benefit from it. If those last two digits start with a 3 my advice is to leave the Decathlon in the hangar.

covec
20th Oct 2019, 00:33
Thank you djpil.

My location is N Scotland. In mountain lee the turbulence can be really bad. Surprised at the turbulence from a NE’ly off the N Sea...

B2N2
20th Oct 2019, 00:46
Depends.
What stage of training is the student in?
”Altitude” maneuvers ?
There is nothing wrong with saying that the landing would be a demonstration only to make it clear why the student would not be authorized to solo under those conditions.
Was the planned lessons on landings? Then no don’t go unless the student is close to exam flight.
A student needs to be safely exposed to conditions that are potentially dangerous to a newly minted pilot.

covec
20th Oct 2019, 01:29
Hi B2N2. About 8 hours from finishing PPL but had not flown in 6 months. Previous FI advised that student’s flying suffered in anything “more than a breeze”.

Cloudbase varied Bkn to Few 1200ft to occasional CAVOK (with those winds). Icing at 2000ft. Vis occasionally 6000m rain but generally 10K +.

MSAs here are around 3800ft min.

MrAverage
20th Oct 2019, 08:53
Covec!

You'd be very welcome at our Club.

Whopity
20th Oct 2019, 10:30
As the instructor, you make the decision. Never do anything that you are not happy with. What is the purpose of the exercise, is it acheivable in the circumstances? If your student has an issue with "more than a breeze" maybe a demonstration to show what can be done, but there is little point trying to teach him in extreme condiions. I have shown a student what a 40 kt wind in the circuit looks like and that a C152 can be landed with a 27 Kt crosswind, I would not have expected the student to do either and it could be a demonstration of decision making and why no to do it.

blind pew
20th Oct 2019, 16:17
2019005-BGA-Accident-Investigation-Report-22-Feb-19-Duo-Discus-G-CJUM.pdf
accident report well worth reading wrt peer pressure

Big Pistons Forever
20th Oct 2019, 18:26
Would the student have got any benefit from the lesson?

.

This in my opinion, is the crux of the matter. Given your description of the student, I would suggest you made the right call. If management has a problem you need to politely but firmly make clear you are exercising your sole discretion as the air craft commander, full stop.

A couple of related thoughts.

1) I have seen instructors particularly junior instructors, sometimes bin a flight without thinking of alternatives. Days like you describe can be nasty down low but smooth at altitude, so perhaps there is an option to work on other parts of the PPL course. A short out and back nav exercise on a really windy day can be an excellent learning experience for instance and you can demo the landing. Good for your skills maintenance and good for the student to see without the pressure to perform.

2) If a student can't manage in a safe but not necessarily elegant manner, a near max demonstrated cross wind takeoff and landing they IMO are not ready for the flight test

3) Wind is OK, bumps are OK, wind and bumps are more problematical, however they can be a good way show an over confident student their limitations....

rarelyathome
20th Oct 2019, 23:55
Of course it’s your call, but the max demonstrated is for an average pilot. You should be comfortable demonstrating up to that figure. If your student has had issues with x winds, why not take advantage of the conditions to teach the correct technique? If it’s you that’s not confident however....

B2N2
21st Oct 2019, 01:51
You can’t dunk a student in the deep end and expect them to perform to standards.
In the end it’s better to be on the ground wondering if you should have gone up then being in the air wondering if you should have stayed in the clubhouse.

BillieBob
21st Oct 2019, 08:17
....the max demonstrated is for an average pilotWhere does it say that? CS23 merely requires that, "A 90° cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe for taxying, take-off and landing must be established and must be not less than 0.2 VS0". It says nothing about the ability of the pilot.

djpil
21st Oct 2019, 11:32
I can’t remember the para # but it depends on the certification basis for the type. CAR 3 preceded FAR 23 and it simply specified that exceptional skill was not required. Early versions of FAR 23 were the same. Later versions stated “The landing may not require more than average piloting skill". I assume those requirements applied to crosswind operations too but I don’t recall.
I haven’t bothered to check for the C152 but I wonder if that explains the lower xwind figure than the C150.

pulse1
21st Oct 2019, 11:33
why not take advantage of the conditions to teach the correct technique?

Having restored my long defunct PPL in a Cessna 152 I was struggling to get checked out in a PA28. One day the wind was quite strong and the instructor said that it he couldn't check me out in these conditions but I could have a lesson if I liked. Thinking it would be good experience I went ahead and we did a couple of circuits with safe but untidy landings and then he called it a day. As we taxied in I asked how I had done and, to my absolute amazement, he said he would sign me off. I think that he left the school shortly after that.

pitotheat
22nd Oct 2019, 10:59
Covec your decision was entirely justifiable. As others have said it depends on what stage of training the student is at and what they could reasonably get out of a lesson in such conditions. Something else to consider is in the event of you becoming incapacitated what are the chances of your student being able to get you on the ground safely?

BigEndBob
22nd Oct 2019, 21:10
Covec your decision was entirely justifiable. As others have said it depends on what stage of training the student is at and what they could reasonably get out of a lesson in such conditions. Something else to consider is in the event of you becoming incapacitated what are the chances of your student being able to get you on the ground safely?
Incapacitation, you would never do any trial flights if that was a consideration.

pitotheat
23rd Oct 2019, 14:51
BEB It’s all about mitigating threats. In the case of incapacitation the risks are different dependent upon the circumstances and have to be accepted for a trial flight verses a lesson with a student who having completed part of their course could get you back on the ground in benign conditions. Shouldn’t we be looking constantly at widening our options if possible rather than narrowing them?

BigEndBob
23rd Oct 2019, 22:36
BEB It’s all about mitigating threats. In the case of incapacitation the risks are different dependent upon the circumstances and have to be accepted for a trial flight verses a lesson with a student who having completed part of their course could get you back on the ground in benign conditions. Shouldn’t we be looking constantly at widening our options if possible rather than narrowing them?
Perhaps a trial flight should start with circuit and landing then, before local area.

pitotheat
24th Oct 2019, 07:48
BEB You are displaying commendable levels of maturity and reasoning.
I presume you run a school and far more concerned about profit than the safety of your customers and staff and whether the customer is likely to learn anything valuable from their lesson is immaterial.

BigEndBob
24th Oct 2019, 08:41
BEB You are displaying commendable levels of maturity and reasoning.
I presume you run a school and far more concerned about profit than the safety of your customers and staff and whether the customer is likely to learn anything valuable from their lesson is immaterial.

You cannot say that as you have no idea what our ethics are.
30 years as a flying instructor and 40 years flying has taught me a lot, about people and aviation.

pitotheat
24th Oct 2019, 08:59
I match you in flying experience, first solo 1978, in civilian flying, military and airline. I still think the OP was correct in his/her decision making for all the reasons given by me and others.
We will agree to disagree and I wish you continued safe flying.

Bridgestone17
24th Oct 2019, 15:10
"The superior Pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid situations which require his superior skills". This was often quoted when I was a junior Instructor years ago. Isn't this matter all about "training value" for the student and developing his limitations. If he can't cope with strong winds and he has had a long layoff then you made the right call.

Duchess_Driver
24th Oct 2019, 17:06
“The least experienced press on while the more experienced turn back to meet the most experienced who never set off in the first place.”

Safety first. Learning objectives and value for the customers (training and fiscal). If the student isn’t going to benefit then what’s the point?

MadamBreakneck
5th Nov 2019, 14:06
...
Safety first. Learning objectives and value for the customers (training and fiscal). If the student isn’t going to benefit then what’s the point?
Hear, hear. It surely also demonstrates to the student that airmanship includes the ability to say 'not today'. It brings to mind Helen Krasner's article in the October '19 edition of FTN about teaching airmanship by example.

TBH, I remain surprised at the lack of penetration into light aircraft training of modern flight simulation technology. A massive amount of (albeit not loggable) training experience can be built up on non-flyable days and evenings by an instructor giving lessons in any half-decent synthetic training device. When I abandoned a flying day at my microlight school, I'd offer to set up our simulator with "today's weather" - that'd usually satisfy the student that staying on the ground was a wise decision. What's more, the student made more progress in the simulator - which was usually carried through to the next real flight - for less expense than if they'd been taken up in near-limit conditions.
MB

parkfell
5th Nov 2019, 21:38
Does the Operational Manual provide guidance as to limitations?

The other consideration was the benefit the customer was likely to receive.
The customer might concur with your decision. Perhaps a conversation with management might settle the matter. HoT most likely to wind his neck in........

OP please update if any developments

MrAverage
6th Nov 2019, 08:11
We're only a DTO but, a "Weather minima chart" is permanently on the notice board, setting out limits for solo students, dual flights and flights by licence holders (with a separate column for IR/IRR holders) for circuit details, local flights, longer local flights and landaways. It's been there since I started as an RF many years ago. The O.P.'s flight would never have left the clubhouse if it were ours. (And had the 27 knot gust happened at the critical moment the x wind component would have been much more than 11 knots)

I get accused of being a wimp, but I just take that as a compliment..............

parkfell
6th Nov 2019, 15:51
We're only a DTO but, a "Weather minima chart" is permanently on the notice board, setting out limits for solo students, dual flights and flights by licence holders (with a separate column for IR/IRR holders) for circuit details, local flights, longer local flights and landaways. It's been there since I started as an RF many years ago. The O.P.'s flight would never have left the clubhouse if it were ours. (And had the 27 knot gust happened at the critical moment the x wind component would have been much more than 11 knots)

I get accused of being a wimp, but I just take that as a compliment..............

What all FIs must be aware of is that should a serious/fatal event occur not only will the AAIB & CAA get involved, then M’learned friends will be after their pound of flesh as well.
Extremely expensive, long lasting, and stressful.

My advise to any instructor is that your ‘ legal eagle ‘ sits on your shoulder at work. You must be able to justify entirely all actions taken. Taking a calculated risk is simply fool hardy.
Having appeared as a witness at two Scottish Fatal Accidents Inquiries, it became obvious that any chinks in the armour will be fully revealed.

For ‘wimp’ read a ‘mature sound individual’

Private jet
6th Nov 2019, 19:45
Part of my training, many years ago, was conducted by a "character" called David Coulson. Stick & rudder wise he certainly showed me what was possible to those with sufficient talent & I'll always be grateful for that.

B-757
16th Nov 2019, 23:06
..17G27..Excellent day for some landing practise (for an advanced student)..Everybody should experience these conditions at some point of their training, so they can judge the weather and their abilities better later on..After all, if you haven´t seen it before, you do not know what to expect..Instructor who is takes a student up only in good conditions, is doing a disservice to the student and himself..Eventually a day like this will come, be prepared..

Fly safe,
B-757

parkfell
18th Nov 2019, 17:57
..17G27..Excellent day for some landing practise (for an advanced student)..Everybody should experience these conditions at some point of their training, so they can judge the weather and their abilities better later on..After all, if you haven´t seen it before, you do not know what to expect..Instructor who is takes a student up only in good conditions, is doing a disservice to the student and himself..Eventually a day like this will come, be prepared..

Fly safe,
B-757
A stroll in the park for a B757, if that is your present/past ac. A somewhat blunt answer as to how to introduce someone.
Depends what you mean by “advanced student”. PPL? CPL? It is surprising what a limiting factor the xwc can be on light ac...
To gently nibble at it is probably the answer to gain experience.
Where you learn in the world is also a significant factor.
What is true is that “fair weather” bases don’t always prepare you for the real world if undergoing professional training. That also applies to instructors joining as FOs in northern latitudes.