Who made the decision on the ASIC?

[Dick Smith]

I have been doing some research to try to find out which Minister or which particular bureaucrat came up with the idea of the ASIC. As most know, an equivalent card is not required in the USA – the home of September 11.

Does anyone know which particular individual or group came up with the requirement and whether they did any type of safety case on it?

[Super Cecil]

You have to hand it to lil Johnny Howard, since they bought in the Asic and all those useful airfield fences that go to 100 metres past the terminals there has not been one Terrorist attack at a local airfield.

[On Track]

Not that there had ever been a terrorist attack...

Howard has a lot to answer for.

[havick]

I have been doing some research to try to find out which Minister or which particular bureaucrat came up with the idea of the ASIC. As most know, an equivalent card is not required in the USA – the home of September 11.

Does anyone know which particular individual or group came up with the requirement and whether they did any type of safety case on it?

yes and no regarding badges in the USA. Pretty much all airports with airlines require a SIDA badge to be airside. Pilots without a sida (but with their company ID and in uniform) can only be within the footprint of their aircraft for a pre/post-flight. That was my experience flying a regional jet in and out of most of the major hubs and outstations in the USA.

That being said, the ASIC requirements and application is a joke. I particularly love the fact that it can’t be used as any official type of ID.

[BigPapi]

Hey the ASIC serves atleast one useful purpose, it really satisfies our inherent Australian bootlicking and authority craving desires.

[Fieldmouse]

I'd like to meet the bloke or blokette concerned somewhere private. ASIC is tip of the iceberg. Every time a tradie or a truck driver comes onto a security controlled airport its a total faf requiring the lodgement of a first born child, reams of sensitive information handed over, and a shadow in the form of an ASIC holder who'd rather be somewhere else. Total unmitigated, unnecessary, expensive, intrusive, time and resource wasting CF of biblical proportions. Sick 'em Dick.

[michigan j]

I think it was with the Aviation Security Regulations 2005. John Anderson was the Minister from 1998 to 2005, followed by Warren Truss...

[machtuk]

It to matters none anyway which fool/s dreamed the ASIC up we are stuck with it, the general public feel safe right?? -:(

[aroa]

It gets even worse IHMO. Have a read of the Av Security Act....slipped in there a couple of years ago? is that yr Flying Licence is now a security document !!!
After 8 months of regurgitating all his past history which they have had for the last 15 years he got his ASIC...but had to go with all the ID stuff he had sent them, to collect it from somewhere else, in person . THREE weeks after it had supposedly been sent .
During this long wait he was advised, altho his PPL is all current, that he cannot fly his a/c without an ASIC.!!
Good grief !!.. there are thousands of pilots like me without an ASIC because I have no need to go to an airfield where RPT/ Security Sensitive area exists.

In his previous battle for an ASIC some lady wrote advising him he could not even TAXY his own aircraft.!

If you do an act considered to be "terrorism" or offences against the Act..there goes both yr licence and yr ASIC.

So why dont make them/ yr LIcence ASIC one and the same, perpetual until you lose it or give it up.
Aww thats right ,....revenue and employment.

To get this card is more onerous and time wasting than getting a passport ffs...the ID document you travel overseas with,!
And you cant use it as an ID. CAsA people do tho, to identify themselves, why not us???

We really are going down the Nationalist Socialist path...little by little = a lot, our rights and liberties are being eroded away by bureuacraps trying to keep themselves in a job.

I had to laugh when given a card by the AFP airport visitor...that said on the back You are the eyes and ears of yr airport, advise any suspicious activity. Thats exactly what the US Govt told aviators there after 9/11.
But in the Land of the Free, the citizen aviator doesnt have to go thru all the BS we do. And every TWO years.

Those that give up some liberties for a little temporary security , deserve neither liberty or security. B Franklin, was it ?

[aroa]

To the ASIC I also say Baaa humbug. But as one of the flock of aviators on this country we ALL need to flatten the bureaucratc fence and escape.
Go Dick, yes, but also every other man/ woman and sheep dog.
A petition to Parliament? ..where we the people are supposed to be heard.
Something has to change. And quick.

[roundsounds]

My guess would be a very convincing paper created by a security expert. A great business plan, the “experts” tweak the requirements periodically to boost the profitability of their scheme / scam.

[michigan j]

My guess would be a very convincing paper created by a security expert. A great business plan, the “experts” tweak the requirements periodically to boost the profitability of their scheme / scam.

...which the Minister and Cabinet approved...

[BigPapi]

Surely Minister and Cabinet will approve anything if an "expert" slaps the words "safety" and "security" on it enough times.

[ozbiggles]

What is your alternative? No security checks at all because it offends your precious sensibilities?

Was the Etihad incident out of Sydney not enough to make you aware there may be the odd threat out there? The knife attack on a kiwi aircraft a few years back? Threats to the MCG? ANZAC day? just to name a few.

Is putting on 4 bars you bought from the pilots shop a free ticket? Please tell me what you think should be done or just waste your time finding out who signed something into being 15 years ago so you can stamp your feet like little toddlers.

[Stickshift3000]

Please tell me what you think should be done or just waste your time finding out who signed something into being 15 years ago so you can stamp your feet like little toddlers.


Conversely - do you think a terrorist wanting to cause injury by using an aeroplane as a weapon will decide not to since they must hold an ASIC to land a plane in CTA?

[By George]

Ah Yes, Mr Biggles, as an aging toddler it is great to see someone retaining some level of responsibility. However I wonder why the humble passport is no longer a class 'A' document. Finding an 'original' Birth Certificate to prove I is him took me over a month. I am still waiting for my renewal.
Mind you, I have had a nasty security scare. I had a cargo plane loaded with explosives for a mining charter to Port Moresby. They took my yogurt off me (my breakfast) because it was a 'liquid or a gel'. T'was a near thing I tell you. But we arrived safely in the end.

[ozbiggles]

I never said it wasn’t a pain in the backside...but I think that’s the idea. As for the passport, well the Israelis managed to copy a few Australian passports for ‘spy’ activities a few years back and they are meant to be on our side.

[cattletruck]

well the Israelis managed to copy a few Australian passports for ‘spy’ activities a few years back

Having had my passport renewal stolen at that very time I could tell you exactly how they did it, but I digress...

I and many others have already voiced our concerns at what a useless and practically ineffectual document this ASIC is. You have our utmost support Dick in naming and shaming the jobsworth that introduced this bogus security measure which doesn't actually do anything.

[ozbiggles]

Your alternate?

[lucille]

Only for non commercial operations, it appears by implication that an AVID will suffice. On the CASA website, which directs you to an ASIC application, there is mention of settling for an AVID if one does not require frequent access to a security controlled airport. By implication, an AVID should be good intermittent access to a security controlled airport.

I have recently resumed flying in Oz after a 30 year hiatus, I only have an AVID but have not tested it at a point of entry airport yet. It will be interesting to see if the jobsworthies with fat belts and room temperature IQs will draw their taser on me.

30 years living and flying all over the world and I have only ever encountered the obsessive security as we have here in China. The USA by contrast is relatively relaxed for crew, for pax - not so much. You have to laugh when somewhere like Thargomindah is listed as a security controlled airport thus requiring an ASIC. There are some seriously intellectually challenged people in positions of power when it comes to “security”.

The Youtube video depicting a CASA employee discussing the introduction of the ASIC is pure comedic gold. Well worth a look.

[The name is Porter]

Oh I don't know, I would have thought that if any country would require such a security measure introduced as a result of 9/11 it would be the US?

But no! Whenever I've had cause to enter an airport either airside or as a passenger in the US, or it be an airport that handles 'jet transport pilots' or GA or some of the bigger airports that handle substantial jet traffic, I haven't had a nazi approach me once. I've had fellas come up and say hello, checking in a friendly way why I'm there or if they could help me. Hell, I even know a bloke that has a hangar for his RV at an International Airport. He swipes a card to get into his hangar from a gate on the opposite side of the terminal.

I get over there pretty regularly, I've not had one poor experience with the TSA, not one. And they haven't 'randomly' checked me for explosives once with some drumstick with a chux on the end of it. But I reckon they'd know tout de suite if I was packing one.

The ASIC, I faithfully take it every where with me, wishing upon wish that someone will ask me for it at Warnambool. Just one day, it would make it all worthwhile.

[cattletruck]

Your alternate?

I'm very good looking, suave and intelligent, and don't know how they made such a mistake.

[The name is Porter]

Was the Etihad incident out of Sydney not enough to make you aware there may be the odd threat out there? The knife attack on a kiwi aircraft a few years back? Threats to the MCG? ANZAC day? just to name a few.

Genuine question, how has the ASIC prevented any of these threats?

I reckon the Australian agencies have done a pretty good job picking up the vast majority of terrorist plots that have gotten to advanced planning stages. Do you reckon any of these plots have been picked up by any of these agencies checking whether any of the numpties held an ASIC or had applied for one and failed the application?

[YPJT]

Whilst it doesn't answer Dick's specific question as to who in particular suggested or signed off on the introduction of ASICs, this Parliamentary Report (https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Completed_Inquiries/jcpaa/aviation_security2/report/chapter3) provides some info on the various discussions that took place soon thereafter.

By implication, an AVID should be good intermittent access to a security controlled airport
I would not agree with that interpretation as the legislation dealing with access to a security controlled airport refers to ASICs only. CASA have been bum drumming pilots on Aviation Security since day dot. A visiting pilot from overseas once turned up in a rented 210 with family on board, was asked whether he had a current ASIC. He replied he did not but had and AVID and CASA said that was all he needed to fly a VH registered aircraft in Oz. Technically that was correct but they failed to say that - "if you intend to land at a security controlled airport, you will need an ASIC". Airport staff did the right thing, looked after him and his aircraft and saw him on his merry way. Not sure how he subsequently got on at other airports.
FWIW, I once forgot my ASIC and hired an aircraft that was on the GA side of a major international security controlled airport. No one batted and eyelid. :)

I know of another instance though where an airport was undergoing a security audit at the time and a small regional airline had one of their pilots land..... without his ASIC. The airport got the NCN from the regulator - go figure.

[vee1-rotate]

Not that there had ever been a terrorist attack...

Howard has a lot to answer for.

So do we wait for one, and a potential mass loss of life before we implement something, or......?

[Cedrik]

So do we wait for one, and a potential mass loss of life before we implement something, or......?
And implementing an ASIC and 100 metres of fencing at every regional terminal stopped a terrorist attack?

[Squawk7700]

And implementing an ASIC and 100 metres of fencing at every regional terminal stopped a terrorist attack?

How do you know it didn’t ?

[Cedrik]

Any person with a pilot licence in Australia has an ASIO file, any person with a legal firearm or explosives licence in Australia has an ASIO file. How does making pilots apply for another plastic card through a non government private entity make the world a safer place?
If Australia had a decent card licence with photo ID that could be used for security. Ask any pilot what they think of the current licence format.

[Cedrik]

How do you know it didn’t ?
Because the Guvmint didn't make a big splash on the media telling us, they would do that.

[ozbiggles]

In answer to the question of what an ASIC does for security.
it acts as a deterrent. The person behind it has been a through a painful process to prove they are who they say they are and have a reason to be where they are and if someone doesn’t have one it acts as a red flag if they are somewhere they shouldn’t be.
Again I ask the question what do people complaining about it say should be done instead? Or do we just trust everyone in a pilots uniform wearing gold (or pink) bars?

[Cedrik]

As I said Biggles, pilots could use their licence..............................if it was a useful photo card licence instead of the idiotic paper sheet.

[lucille]

People with malignant intentions will happily go through the painful process of obtaining an ASIC if it allows them unfettered access to carry out whatever it is they intend doing.

Forging an ASIC well enough to get past some guy with a big belt and trousers tucked into his boots at a gate surely can’t be all that difficult.

Please don’t make the mistake of believing that an ASIC is a silver bullet to save us from terrorists. At best, it’s an easily overcome inconvenience to them.

[Sunfish]

I don’t think people quite understand what “security” means. To achieve true security you require defenses in depth - multiple checks with multi factor (ie different) forms of checks.

An ASIC on its own is useless. It needs to be checked EVERY TIME by someone with armed immediate backup to provide just one level of defense. The second level is to require a valid reason to be in the security zone at all. The third level is physical security of the zone itself - fences, razor wire, alarms.

The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in.

[Squawk7700]

I don’t think people quite understand what “security” means. To achieve true security you require defenses in depth - multiple checks with multi factor (ie different) forms of checks.

An ASIC on its own is useless. It needs to be checked EVERY TIME by someone with armed immediate backup to provide just one level of defense. The second level is to require a valid reason to be in the security zone at all. The third level is physical security of the zone itself - fences, razor wire, alarms.

The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in.

What is your background in Police, law enforcement, counterfeiting and or security Sunfish? You seem to have convinced yourself that you know a lot about it.

So you’re proposing someone checks the ASIC at the airport and behind that person checking is some kind of armed security officer? Which department will provide such a service and under what regulation or crimes act would that be implemented? Oh and what would their powers of arrest be and what National IT system would they use to check said ASIC holder’s personal records? (The same check that takes a week or two in order to obtain an ASIC)

All this talk of arming, fences, razor wire, alarms and other security scary stuff is putting me off wanting to visit the airport for the purposes of work or leisure travel.

[Lookleft]

The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in.

Have to agree with you on that point Sunfish. A lot of what passes for airport security is window dressing. The fact that airports can issue ASICs is just one hole in the system. The other big hole in the system is the access that tarmac staff have to aircraft. They are not required to go through anything but the most rudimentary screening by a bored security person (another glaring hole in the system). What Sunfish is saying is that if the S in ASIC was to mean anything then his scenario would be what it looks like. He is not advocating for that to be introduced, if I have read his post correctly.

[triadic]

Where does it say that a PPL must hold an ASIC?

I understand that the old plastic licence will not return. CASA now looking at a phone app that will include your licence details....!

Where is the standardisation that gives guidance to rurual airfield operators as how they facilitate GA ops by pilots that do not hold an ASIC?

[YPJT]

Where is the standardisation that gives guidance to rurual airfield operators as how they facilitate GA ops by pilots that do not hold an ASIC?
Pretty simple really, if you want to have access at a security controlled airport that has screened services - ASIC 24/7. Airports without screened services you can apply Regulation 3.03. The sticking point there though is that many airports specify ASICs at all times regardless. Would be a very interesting test case.


So after reading the comments here I am wondering what was the purpose of Dick's question? I suppose he could point the finger at the GG of the time who signed off on the Aviation Transport Security Act 2004. What does it matter who played what part?

[arketip]

As I said Biggles, pilots could use their licence..............................if it was a useful photo card licence instead of the idiotic paper sheet.

Which country have that?

USA? No, plastic but no picture
Europe? No, no picture and paper sheet.
Canada? No, picture but 24 pages booklet

Others?

[cogwheel]

Pretty simple really, if you want to have access at a security controlled airport that has screened services - ASIC 24/7. Airports without screened services you can apply Regulation 3.03. The sticking point there though is that many airports specify ASICs at all times regardless. Would be a very interesting test case.

I think the real issue that Dick has raised in part is that there is/was NO allowance made for GA ops, specifically at rural ‘security’ airports in the Regs. You don’t require an ASIC unless operating in a security marked area of such an airport. What is the procedure if you have to divert to Dubbo or Roma? Those procedures seem to be at the discretion of the airport operator, where the Regs should specify the procedures. Result is that no airports treat it the same. All rural airports should have an area that does not require ASICS. I call it discrimination!

[YPJT]

Cogwheel, has anyone yet been thrown in handcuffs for diverting to an airport when they don't have an ASIC. I think you are looking for an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

[VH DSJ]

Your alternate?


The system they have in the USA known as KCM or 'Known Crew Member'. A system that actually checks your identity each time you enter a secure area and costs nothing as the background checks are done by your employer. If you're not on the KCM database, then you're not a pilot. It's that simple.

[havick]

Oh I don't know, I would have thought that if any country would require such a security measure introduced as a result of 9/11 it would be the US?

But no! Whenever I've had cause to enter an airport either airside or as a passenger in the US, or it be an airport that handles 'jet transport pilots' or GA or some of the bigger airports that handle substantial jet traffic, I haven't had a nazi approach me once. I've had fellas come up and say hello, checking in a friendly way why I'm there or if they could help me. Hell, I even know a bloke that has a hangar for his RV at an International Airport. He swipes a card to get into his hangar from a gate on the opposite side of the terminal.

I get over there pretty regularly, I've not had one poor experience with the TSA, not one. And they haven't 'randomly' checked me for explosives once with some drumstick with a chux on the end of it. But I reckon they'd know tout de suite if I was packing one.

The ASIC, I faithfully take it every where with me, wishing upon wish that someone will ask me for it at Warnambool. Just one day, it would make it all worthwhile.

you’re forgetting to mention sida badges in the USA

[ozbiggles]

The Known Crew Member system, sounds ok...how does it work?
How does it check your identity every time? How often does it need updating? I’m sure a few people here would have complaints if they had to show their ID to a machine/person every time, I mean they have trouble with the ASIC process. Who pays for it? Do they have economy of scale?

[havick]

The Known Crew Member system, sounds ok...how does it work?
How does it check your identity every time? How often does it need updating? I’m sure a few people here would have complaints if they had to show their ID to a machine/person every time, I mean they have trouble with the ASIC process. Who pays for it? Do they have economy of scale?http://www.knowncrewmember.org/

your airline/ALPA pays for it.

[Super Cecil]

Which country have that?

USA? No, plastic but no picture
Europe? No, no picture and paper sheet.
Canada? No, picture but 24 pages booklet

Others?
Other countries having something is not a prerequisite for CASA, how many Australian only AD's are there? Is an Australian licence valid in any other country? The issue of a part 61 was supposed to fix all, has just required another level of useless paperwork.

[cogwheel]

Cogwheel, has anyone yet been thrown in handcuffs for diverting to an airport when they don't have an ASIC. I think you are looking for an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

YPJT... Not at all. Have you operated thru a rural security airport without an ASIC?

Agreed that you are u are not likely to finish up in cuffs, but the hassle and time to get out of the airfield and back in can be quite convoluted and time consuming = pain in the butt! (Depending how the airfield management interpret the Regs)

What some are suggesting is that at rural airports there should be a section to which an ASIC is not required with GA access to the apron. As said above these rules seem to have been developed with no consideration for GA ops. That is the problem.

[arketip]

Other countries having something is not a prerequisite for CASA, how many Australian only AD's are there? Is an Australian licence valid in any other country? The issue of a part 61 was supposed to fix all, has just required another level of useless paperwork.

Well, the "issue" of other countries was brought up in the OP and other posts.
And the comparison is regularly brought up on a lot of threads about Australian aviation.

Or is that allowed only when it suits you?

[Super Cecil]

Well, the "issue" of other countries was brought up in the OP and other posts.
And the comparison is regularly brought up on a lot of threads about Australian aviation.

Or is that allowed only when it suits you?
Are you saying we should be the same as other countries or not?

[arketip]

Are you saying we should be the same as other countries or not?

Your choice.

But you cannot bring up the "but in the USA..." only when it suit you.
Well, you can, but is not too coherent.

[YPJT]

What some are suggesting is that at rural airports there should be a section to which an ASIC is not required with GA access to the apron. As said above these rules seem to have been developed with no consideration for GA ops. That is the problem.
OK, so the question that goes begging on that is; why should pilots be given special dispensation within the legislation? You can't on one hand be calling current system "discrimination" and then asking for special treatment on the other.
Having been around this game for quite a while now and been involved in the various legislative changes from industry consultation right through to enactment, I'm sorry to say that what you are suggesting wouldn't get over the start line.
To get any support for it at all you would have to convince the two main groups that comprise the industry security forums. Those being airlines and airport operators. I just cannot see that happening.
GA has been in the past and continues to be poorly represented, in fact totally unrepresented at just about every conference I have attended.

[dartman2]

I have no problem with the requirement for some form of photo ID at Security Controlled Airports however the cost of such ID should be worn by those that invented the requirement.

In addition, why is it that a military ID is not acceptable (when flying a non-military aircraft)?
In addition, why is a foreign airline ID fine at SYD but not acceptable at Dubbo?

Rules for the sake of rules or revenue raising or both...

[Sunfish]

YPJT, the question is why have the legislation at all?

[The name is Porter]

you’re forgetting to mention sida badges in the USA

Havick, I can only talk about what I've experienced in my flying over there, several Class D towered aerodromes, Chicago Executive etc. Plus a fair whack of non towered over 5 or 6 states. I've had a couple of Flight Reviews over there and it hasn't been mentioned. Maybe I've been lucky??

[havick]

Havick, I can only talk about what I've experienced in my flying over there, several Class D towered aerodromes, Chicago Executive etc. Plus a fair whack of non towered over 5 or 6 states. I've had a couple of Flight Reviews over there and it hasn't been mentioned. Maybe I've been lucky??

pretty much all class b airports have it

[Dick Smith]

Havick, you are describing your experience in the USA as an airline pilot. I can assure you there is no equivalent to the ASIC for general aviation. I have travelled around with John and Martha King in their Falcon 10, and nowhere is any security card required.

Of course, just as in Australia, GA is separated by at least a few hundred metres from the airlines. You can readily get the rental car brought right out to your aircraft to load up. Try doing that in Australia!

[KRviator]

So do we wait for one, and a potential mass loss of life before we implement something, or......?Why not? We lose more people on the roads every Christmas holiday period than have been killed by terrorists in Australia since Federation!. Hell, more Police officers have been killed by trains than terrorists (5 in Victoria alone!), yet you don't see calls to ban the railway, or have every train driver carry an ASIC. I don't even think they do full background checks on us besides the standard criminal records check, yet if a Driver wanted to kill an awful lot of people, it wouldn't be hard...

How far do we have to take this Orwellian society in the name of "security" before we no longer have any freedoms we once took for granted? The "What Ifs...." are too numerous to cater for every eventuality but that is what people are suggesting we cater for...

[havick]

Havick, you are describing your experience in the USA as an airline pilot. I can assure you there is no equivalent to the ASIC for general aviation. I have travelled around with John and Martha King in their Falcon 10, and nowhere is any security card required.

Of course, just as in Australia, GA is separated by at least a few hundred metres from the airlines. You can readily get the rental car brought right out to your aircraft to load up. Try doing that in Australia!

not exactly true. Where GA is mixed with airliners (e.g Orange County) the ops cars stop by you, and ask to see your sida badge. This happened to me while I had the helicopter parked outside the FBO there just the other month.

all I’m trying to point out is that the USA isn’t always as straight forward as everyone makes out. I do think the ASIC is unnecessary and complete waste of time.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The Youtube video depicting a CASA employee discussing the introduction of the ASIC is pure comedic gold.
Provided you ignore the glaring error that CASA did not introduce the ASIC.