Advanced UPRT

[Rocket61]

Hi guys,

I have a question about that new training (advanced UPRT, or FCL.745) which will be mandatory for any first Type Rating courses starting after December 20, 2019. From what I understand, all the trainees out of school and not T/R yet are all pretty much f**cked up ? It seems that almost no ATOs have amended their courses yet or are not able to provide it for the time being, or at least it is the case in my country. It is very frustrating as no one seems to know anything clear about it, but still we have to have it now otherwise we're unable to apply to some airlines nor can we start a T/R course. Does anyone have it or has passed it recently ?

[MCDU2]

My airline does UPRT every six months and has done so for the past 3-4 years. New joiners get it as part of their type rating. Join an airline and you will get the required training as part of your type rating.

[greeners]

The Advanced UPRT requirement FCL.745.A is specifically On-aircraft training and cannot be delivered in a Sim. My organisation Ultimate High is one of a number that will be able to deliver this course.

And yes, anybody commencing a Type Rating after 20th December - in 52 days - WILL need to have completed an FCL.745.A programme.

[P40Warhawk]

The Advanced UPRT requirement FCL.745.A is specifically On-aircraft training and cannot be delivered in a Sim. My organisation Ultimate High is one of a number that will be able to deliver this course.

And yes, anybody commencing a Type Rating after 20th December - in 52 days - WILL need to have completed an FCL.745.A programme.

Another BS course. Just to increase revenue and profits to flight schools. More money to be sucked out of students pockets. And for what? In every airline you get theoretical training and training for UPRT in sim. I seriously dont see the point of do that stuff in a SEP.

Fist years ago we got MCC. A course which is ACTUALLY useful.

Then like 7 yrs ago the JOC. Which in my opinion stuff you learn in one of first sessions anyway during TR.

Then we got the APS which is ALMOST a whole TR and costs in many cases almost the same. With result. You just have some certificate which is NOT a TR anyway.

And to make training even MORE expensive now the UPRT.

Airlines better change their point of view regarding Automation. Especially going straight from Flightschool to Airbus job with MAX automation instead of a little bit more freedom with Handflying. THAT is where accidents come from. By getting more chance to do hand flying and Raw Data makes you a better pilot. Accidents such as AF447 was preventable if they just still knew basic flying skills.

Of course you can do that raw data flying preferably on smaller airports. Big int. Airports is not nice for your PM. But honestly I also notice it that not many cpts like it when I tell then I want to do some raw data. All autopilot is preferred. Sad actually for the above mentioned reasons.

Summary: EASA and the flights schools playing the same game to help each other creating more revenue aka profit. And for what? For actually nothing. I feel sorry for the newbees.

Nevertheless doing for fun Aerobatic training is nice to do I think. But as a requirement. 🤢. Pfff.

[Hawker400]

https://trainwithcae.com/upset-prevention-recovery-training-uprt

I imagine UPRT is going to be incorporated into initial type rating in the simulator. The only airline that was asking for UPRT for NTR position was TUI for whatever reason.

[Council Van]

Of course you can do that raw data flying preferably on smaller airports. Big int. Airports is not nice for your PM. But honestly I also notice it that many cpts like it when I tell then I want to do some raw data. All autopilot is preferred. Sad actually for the above mentioned reasons.
At the last outfit I was at raw data was not allowed. The Flight Director had to be used if hand flying.

[Rob Howarth]

https://trainwithcae.com/upset-prevention-recovery-training-uprt

I imagine UPRT is going to be incorporated into initial type rating in the simulator. The only airline that was asking for UPRT for NTR position was TUI for whatever reason.

Hello Hawker400,

Unfortunately this is not correct. Under FCL.745.A, Advanced UPRT - Aeroplane, all candidates commencing their initial multi crew type rating will have to have completed Advanced UPRT - Aeroplane, in accordance with FCL.745.A, prior to starting said initial rating. This regulation comes into effect on 20th December 2019. The CAE material you have read and posted refers to CS-FSTD(A) and covers regulatory requirements for FSTD's to be compliant for the UPRT - Simulator training elements.

I hope that this helps,

Best Regards,
Rob

[parkfell]

Another BS course. Just to increase revenue and profits to flight schools. More money to be sucked out of students pockets. And for what? In every airline you get theoretical training and training for UPRT in sim. I seriously dont see the point of do that stuff in a SEP.

Fist years ago we got MCC. A course which is ACTUALLY useful.

Then like 7 yrs ago the JOC. Which in my opinion stuff you learn in one of first sessions anyway during TR.

Then we got the APS which is ALMOST a whole TR and costs in many cases almost the same. With result. You just have some certificate which is NOT a TR anyway.
. 🤢. Pfff.

To quote an old hand when I was in my youth “IF YOU THINK TRAINING IS EXPENSIVE WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT”

Under CAP509 prior to JAR and EASA, the UK CAA approved a CPL/IR syllabus for British Aerospace Flying College, Prestwick where, what is now described as UPRT, was taught together with spinning and the 5 basic aerobatic manoeuvres. The AS202 Bravo, a wonderful Swiss aerobatic aircraft was used for those under training.
Not only did it give confidence, in the most unlikely event an unusual attitude were to occur, then your training would “kick in”.
For those having a bitch and a moan simply fail to appreciate the benefit delivered by this new (reintroduced) course. Read the first paragraph again.......

[giggitygiggity]

EASA had explained that this training module was coming since 2015 and delayed the cut-off date you mention from April 2018 to December 2019. You can ask your training provider why they didn't offer this course, but I assume the answer would be that they didn't have the required equipment (the answer being a lack of aerobatic aircraft/appropriately qualified trainers). I assume that except for integrated 'frozen ATPLs' courses, you asked them for a CPL/IR or similar in a modular fashion. Consider this training just another module that you decided not to fit into your plan. There is however, surely some onus on yourself for not being aware of the appropriate regulations as some regulatory knowledge is part of being a pilot.

As much as you might disagree with the benefit and requirement of the training, it's a good thing and something that unfortunately wasn't part of the license when I had a go (aerobatics are fun!). There is surely some onus on yourself for not being aware of the appropriate regulations as some regulatory knowledge is part of being a pilot.

2015 Notice of Proposed Amendment - Loss of control prevention and recovery training: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/NPA%202015-13.pdf

[FoxtrotGolfFoxtrot]

do you guys know which schools provides this training ? and What is the cost?

[flugas]

The problem is not the training itself, but its cost after one has invested so much money into flight training. Moreover, at an airline screening, the UPRT training knowledge is not going to make a significant difference and this is what matters right after training. At this moment, there're many ATOs which offer aerobatics courses and interestingly do not have an approved UPRT course.

Is anybody aware of an ATO offering UPRT courses in Eastern Europe?

[greeners]

do you guys know which schools provides this training ? and What is the cost?

In the interests of transparency, the main schools offering FCL.745.A On-aircraft Advanced UPRT are as follows.

CRM at White Waltham
FPTUK at Shoreham
Ultimate High at Goodwood/Lee-on-Solent

I will declare my skin in the game as running the last organisation on the list. You'll make your own decision on who to fly with.

[Contact Approach]

So December 20th has passed. What happens now?

[Hawker400]

So December 20th has passed. What happens now?

Did you start a type rating course?

If no, you need advanced UPRT.

CAE is already requesting on the intake forms.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x231/img_20191221_230218_337_c716781f19b86cea5ee52d880aa6643c2af7 3595.jpg

[Banana Joe]

What is the requirement for those that have not received UPRT training but already hold a type rating on a CS-25 aircraft and will soon need to do another one?
Because I haven't had my SEP in a year and half and going though renewal and UPRT would be quite expensive.

[questiony]

Yes I have the same question, I already have multi pilot multi engine aircraft type rating, and I am starting the new type in January...

[inabw]

Actually only few schools are providing this kind of training due the certification time: as reported on this website https://worldaviation.home.blog/2019/12/23/advanced-uprt/ the training requires 3 hours in flight and 5 hours on the ground;
I suppose should not be very expensive, if performed on a Cessna 150.
If you want to verify all the details and the requirements about this course, the official document it's this one https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Easy_Access_Rules_for_Flight_Crew_Licensing_Part-FCL.pdf (from page 865 to page 872).

[covec]

I have an interview soon and having spoken to the Company they are quite happy to interview me without having done the AUPRT first. Proviso: successful interview then yes, I have to do it.

[FR95]

I have an interview soon and having spoken to the Company they are quite happy to interview me without having done the AUPRT first. Proviso: successful interview then yes, I have to do it.
Which company?

[pilot freak]

I'm in exactly the same scenario. So guys be ready to do the course (and spend more money on flight training..).

[Sky95]

What is the requirement for those that have not received UPRT training but already hold a type rating on a CS-25 aircraft and will soon need to do another one?
Because I haven't had my SEP in a year and half and going though renewal and UPRT would be quite expensive.

Hey guys,

Same situation as BananaJoe, but holding a CS-23 type rating working in a multi pilot environment.

Anybody with some answers please?

[PilotRoger]

WZZ is accepting candidates without uprt at the moment, and I guess (not totally sure) , if you get selected they will help you getting an ato to take the certification with a considerable cheaper price.

[giovari]

Hi, I’m starting my type rating on February 3rd.
there is only 1 flight school in Italy “almost” certified to perform UPRT course. But they are waiting for the certification from ENAC.
So...I have to do the UPRT Advance quickly..but I need a plan b.
do you know any other schools in Europe?
thanks

[pilot freak]

Guys, is a valid SEP required to do UPRT? The hours flown on the course will be dual.

[giovari]

you need the SEP for sure.

[Contact Approach]

This UPRT requirement is the ultimate sick joke.

[PilotRoger]

The most nonsense is the CAA doesn't accept the fighter jet experience, still UPRT is needed...

[OldDreamer]

It seems all companies are starting to request the course as a requirement. In the UK it seems like most schools are charging around £1800 for the 2~3 days course. I found a school that is doing it for £1300. Honestly. It is a mystery to me how a 5h classroom + 3h aircraft course in a SEP A/C costs more that £1k...

[echobrav0]

Guys, is a valid SEP required to do UPRT? The hours flown on the course will be dual.

No I just did it without SEP.

[Rottweiler22]

I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I can’t see much of it’s applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best I’ve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was “pitch, power, roll”, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really don’t have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. It’s a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly don’t think UPRT should be mandatory. It’s a farce how if training isn’t expensive enough, it’s now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.

There’s definitely an element of self-preservation and training providers who are trying to justify their own existence with this one.

[Contact Approach]

Rottweiler22, 100% mate.

[Rivet gun]

Honestly. It is a mystery to me how a 5h classroom + 3h aircraft course in a SEP A/C costs more that £1k...
I think many (but not all) instructors teaching this course in the UK are experienced airline captains or with business jet or military jet flying experience. All are current aerobatic pilots and most also aerobatic instructors. Would such people work for the same pay as hour building instructors with a PPL? Also the instructors require an extra training course including advanced spin recovery and annual refresher training. The CAA will charge extra admin costs and the school requires ATO (not DTO) approval.

[Rivet gun]

n After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time.

Here is a quote from GM1 FCL.745.A
(b) Instructors should:
...
(4) understand the differences between all-attitude UPRT and aerobatics training;

And from GM1 FCL.915 (e)

(b) The advanced UPRT course in accordance with point FCL.745.A is not aerobatic training and only requires training for the incipient spin as well as uncoordinated side slipped stalls which are prone to initiating spins.

[greeners]

I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I can’t see much of it’s applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best I’ve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was “pitch, power, roll”, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really don’t have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. It’s a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly don’t think UPRT should be mandatory. It’s a farce how if training isn’t expensive enough, it’s now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.

With the greatest respect, if what you have described is what was delivered then you have not attended a functional, effective or FCL.745.A compliant UPRT course. Not least because aerobatic manoeuvres are nowhere on the syllabus, and delegates should be receiving a full 3 hours of actual UPRT activity - transit out and return to base do not count towards the 3 hour requirement.

And the biggest single point is that a good UPRT school will ensure that ALL of the training is directly pertinent to the commercial airliner environment.

On the weather point, you do not need perfect weather, just enough of a clearing to safely deliver the exercises. Our UPRT school has delivered 14 UPRT courses already this January, and are hoping to deliver another 12 in the next couple of weeks.

[Rivet gun]

delegates should be receiving a full 3 hours of actual UPRT activity - transit out and return to base do not count towards the 3 hour requirement.


But are the UK CAA (or other NAAs) making this mandatory?

The definition of how flight time is recorded for flying training is given at AMC1 FCL.050.
It is understandable that a ATO wishing to offer the course at minimum cost might interpret the 3 hours dual instruction time in accordance with AMC1 FCL.050 unless their Licensing Standards Inspector tells them otherwise.

[Rob Howarth]

I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I can’t see much of it’s applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best I’ve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was “pitch, power, roll”, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really don’t have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. It’s a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly don’t think UPRT should be mandatory. It’s a farce how if training isn’t expensive enough, it’s now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.

There’s definitely an element of self-preservation and training providers who are trying to justify their own existence with this one.

I am disappointed to read this. Whichever ATO you attended, they have clearly had a Training Manual approved, but are not delivering it, or understand it. This is most probably down to instructor standardisation/training. The course is not about aerobatics - or the instructors ability to 'show off', it is about the physiological and psychological aspects of a divergence from a normal flight path and the coping strategies of that, in accordance with operation in multi crew environment as scenarios of a commercial aircraft.

There are very few ATO's in the UK approved to deliver this and I would be surprised if it was one of the top 3. Also, this course need not be too expensive to delegates, but it is worthy noting the costs to an ATO to deliver this course, as well as the calibre of instructors used by said ATO - well certainly the top 3!

Having delivered Advanced UPRT - A to 29 delegates so far this month, I can also concur that this is a real challenge weather wise, but delegates should be mindful that ATO's have their minimas, and will stick to it - for very good reason.

Thanks,
Rob

[Rivet gun]

With a bit of google searching I have found six ATOs in the UK offering the Advanced UPRT course, there may be others I have missed. I presume they all have met the same CAA requirements so I don't know how they could be ranked in any particular order of merit (short of personally evaluating each one).

I suspect Rottweiler22's course may not have been in the UK (not so many F-16 pilots here). There is a UPRT school at Breda in the Netherlands which is a branch of an American UPRT company, but they claim to be the best in the world so perhaps not that one either.

[Contact Approach]

in accordance with operation in multi crew environment as scenarios of a commercial aircraft.

The issue I have with this course is that you don’t fly an airliner like an SEP nor should you fly an SEP like an airliner. UPRT is a part of the TR and the environment is completely different to being in a SEP. You can’t stick someone in a SEP and say that they need to feel the physiological effects when the environment, characteristics and handling all are different to being in an airliner. This course is also extraordinarily expensive for what it is. It’s a real kick in the nuts to those who’ve just paid out £££££ to complete their training to be then asked to fork out £££ more before being eligible to apply for jobs. Particularly when useful UPRT will be covered in detail during their respective TR.
Frankly, its a scam and it serves nothing more than lining the pockets of the few.

[Rivet gun]

Frankly, its a scam and it serves nothing more than lining the pockets of the few.

Here is the relevant extract from ICAO doc 10011

"3.3.1 Aeroplane Training 3.3.1.1 While an essential component of overall flight training and UPRT, current FSTDs have limitations that render them incapable of providing the complete exposure to conditions synonymous with preventing or recovering from a LOC-I event. Limitations in FSTD motion cueing and the reduced emotional response create boundaries that prevent pilots from experiencing the full range of aeroplane attitudes, load factors and behaviour that can be present during an actual flight. These areas of missing experience provide gaps in pilots’ understanding and proficiency when confronted with an actual upset. UPRT on aeroplanes provided by competent instructors should compensate these gaps by being part of the initial UPRT experience at the CPL(A) and MPL level and should then be supplemented by training in FSTDs. This on-aeroplane training, when given at the CPL(A) or MPL licensing level, provides physiological and psychological exposure geared toward upset prevention and recovery which creates a frame of reference that can be transferred to the FSTD environment later in their training. The practice and application of skills acquired during on-aeroplane UPRT provides experience and confidence that cannot be fully acquired in the simulated environment alone."

As for who should pay for on aircraft UPRT, that is part of a wider debate about how the industry recruits pilots and who pays for which bits of the required training. When you go for an airline interview you could explain to them that you can't afford an on aircraft UPRT course but you will be happy to work for them if they pay for a course for you. The cost is fairly insignificant in the overall context of an airline's training budget.

As for what ATOs are charging, many of the instructors are experienced airline captains who could expect to earn over £500 a day working for an airline. I don't know what advanced UPRT instructors are actually paid (perhaps someone on this thread could tell us) but maybe some are willing to work for less than airline pay in order to keep the cost down for those student pilots who have to pay for the course themselves?

[Contact Approach]

Your ICAO reference is still totally irrelevant as it alludes to an experience not a learned skill - which is gained on type. I honestly don’t value a 3 hour flight experience as useful training as i will have forgotten it within 6 months. If ICAO are that bothered then UPRT should form a bigger part of the PPL & CPL syllabus. There’s a reason why airlines don’t have SEP trainers sat around for us to fly...

[Rottweiler22]

Your ICAO reference is still totally irrelevant as it alludes to an experience not a learned skill - which is gained on type. I honestly don’t value a 3 hour flight experience as useful training as i will have forgotten it within 6 months. If ICAO are that bothered then UPRT should form a bigger part of the PPL & CPL syllabus. There’s a reason why airlines don’t have SEP trainers sat around for us to fly...

I have to agree to an extent. All I can say is that there was little I took away from the experience. It was fun, but the majority of the concepts were taught to me at PPL stage. That goes for the recognition, dealing with and prevention of stalls and unusual attitudes.

Great instructors, and a brilliant experience. But it’s applicability to an airline environment I just can’t see. I would be all for more upset recovery training in the sim for type ratings and LPC/OCCs. But mandatory in an SEP? Nein Danke.

I have complete and utter respect for instructors and ATOs and their professionalism. However, training providers must be rubbing their hands knowing every single new licence holder has to give them another £2k for this.

[Contact Approach]

I have complete and utter respect for instructors and ATOs and their professionalism. However, training providers must be rubbing their hands knowing every single new licence holder has to give them another £2k for this.

It’s a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.

[Rottweiler22]

It’s a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.

I feel this could become something like the Driver CPC in haulage. The entire industry is against it... Except the training providers.

[Contact Approach]

If the 3 hours were just added as part of the CPL then it would be valuable training and the cost wouldn’t be such an issue.. Expecting guys to pay £££ after their training and demanding it as a pre-job requisite for a 737 TR is just a joke.

[simmple]

Seems to me that when i were a lad we were taught full stalls, spinning etc at ppl level. Did it again for Bcpl, cpl and again if you did an instructor course. This exposed you to the real life sensations that a sim can’t.
Now yoofs of today ain’t had that and panic at anything over 25 degrees of bank and the flight director isn’t aligned.
These guys have never had to think for themselves, led by the nose by the “system” and many posts reflects his, they know the books but can’t “fly”
Not their fault it’s the syllabus and cost/profit.
As many things nowadays when they improve something be that a computer program, taste of ready meals, the list is very long they cock it up, seems same for flight training, it don’t work and to save face they try and patch it up instead of fixing it costing thousands to the student but with little benefit.

[Contact Approach]

Simmple, correct.

[Rivet gun]

If the 3 hours were just added as part of the CPL then it would be valuable training and the cost wouldn’t be such an issue..

If you do the ATP integrated course or MPL then the advanced UPRT is part of the course.

The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.

If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.

[Contact Approach]

The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.

If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.

I’m afraid this doesn’t wash. Over 95% of people undertaking modular training is for a f-atpl and they choose that route as it’s financially often the only way to do so. Also, the earnings statement doesn’t wash either as that is irrelevant and is used by ATO’s to justify absolute BS pricing for such courses. Once upon a time you only needed a CPL / IR. Then they added an MCC requirement, then came along an optional JOC (basically the first day of TR), now the APS and now UPRT-A. The additional costs are adding up to over 10k for approximately 3 hours of actual flying time, which is SEP PU/T...
It’s quite straight forward, there’s a line and that line is being pushed further and further towards pilots instead of companies. Enough is enough.

[Rivet gun]

If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.

Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.

But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.

[Contact Approach]

I’m not entirely sure hot shot £500 hr fast jet skygods are essential to deliver a 3 hour UPRT flight experience. incorporating this training into cpl would suffice if it’s as important as they make out. Otherwise scrap it all together and continue with the way it’s always worked. If it ain’t broke...

[Rivet gun]

If it ain’t broke...

From IATA (2019)

"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."

I don't know how much UPRT instructors are paid (I would like someone to tell me) but perhaps similar to TRI or MCCI would be reasonable for an instructor with significant airline flying experience?

Part-FCL does not actually require UPRT instructors to have multi pilot or turbine engine aircraft experience but it does say that the safety and potential human factor implications of poor upset recovery instructional technique or misleading information are more significant than in any other areas of pilot training. It seems to me therefore that UPRT instructors would need to understand transport aircraft: how they handle and how they are operated by a two pilot crew.

[Contact Approach]

From IATA (2019)

"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."

So 3 hours in an SEP at the beginning of ones career is going to prevent that? I think not.

[george2323]

Hey guys starting type rating in March/April I wanted to know in which school they have already the advanced uprt course fully certificated for Easa fcl.745.a , I’m based in Spain so the shorter distance from here the better, thanks in advanced guys I appreciate any response, good flights

[Banana Joe]

The 737 MAX accidents have got nothing to do with it. The AF447 triggered the whole thing.
The MAX issues are Boeing's fault.

[Contact Approach]

EASA decided upon this before both the MAX incidents...

[inabw]

When Easa did state this new requirement?

[greeners]

If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.

Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.

But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.

And some airlines are indeed paying for this training. Titan Airways recently introduced a Cadet programme where they pay for APS MCC at VA Airline Training and UPRT-A at the Ultimate High UPRT Academy.

[Contact Approach]

And some airlines are indeed paying for this training. Titan Airways recently introduced a Cadet programme where they pay for APS MCC at VA Airline Training and UPRT-A at the Ultimate High UPRT Academy.


No other airlines other than Titan are paying for this training. Presumably because they think its a total con also.

[Solo521]

I found out today from an organisation in the UK that nowhere in the UK has approval from the CAA yet.. then this was confirmed by the CAA in a phonecall shortly after.. does this mean the “Advanced UPRT” you do may not even be valid for the type rating?Same happens in Spain, although any school is advertising the A-UPRT course down here. The Spanish CAA told me to do it somewhere else approved by EASA…I don’t understand how come EASA/national CAA did not plan an approval time before the regulation coming into force…

[Ronaldsway Radar]

I found out today from an organisation in the UK that nowhere in the UK has approval from the CAA yet.. then this was confirmed by the CAA in a phonecall shortly after.. does this mean the “Advanced UPRT” you do may not even be valid for the type rating?

I am looking at a document in my hands which is completely contrary to this. A letter signed by the CAA enclosing a certificate confirming that an ATO who I completed UPRT with are fully approved for A-UPRT and UPRT instructor course.

I would therefore highly doubt that the CAA know their @rse from their elbow as usual I'm afraid. It was dated 23 December therefore I would very much imagine other ATOs are receiving, or have received, their certificates and confirmation already over the past few weeks.

EDIT: I should add that this has been accepted by a TRTO I am about to undertake first type rating with, who are happy with this approval.

[Booglebox]

Did mine in Shoreham last week. Absolutely fantastic!

[george2323]

In which school did you made it?

[theflyingbus]

FPT at Shoreham and CRM at White Waltham can both offer the course in the UK, think there is at least one other too

[OldDreamer]

FPT at Shoreham and CRM at White Waltham can both offer the course in the UK, think there is at least one other too
British aerobatic academy as well apparently.

[wigbam]

British aerobatic academy as week apparently.
About to finish my A-UPRT with British Aerobatics Academy. I can certainly recommend them. Very professional, to a good standard and friendly.

[parkfell]

Seems to me that when i were a lad we were taught full stalls, spinning etc at ppl level. Did it again for Bcpl, cpl and again if you did an instructor course. This exposed you to the real life sensations that a sim can’t.
Now yoofs of today ain’t had that and panic at anything over 25 degrees of bank and the flight director isn’t aligned.............
.

We find ourselves where we are when a decision was taken to teach “prevention” training ~ stall & spin awareness, as oppose to the previous training of stalling and intentional spinning with recovery. And depending upon the trainer a few aerobatics as well.

The next generation of student had therefore never been required to turned an aircraft onto its back and recover. No exposure to unusual attitudes etc. So when that 10 to the minus 9 event occurs, the junior birdman has never seen anything like it before and unsurprisingly cannot cope.....

That essentially is why the modular bolt on UPRT has now appeared. Some might say that it should be part of the single engine phase of any professional course.

[covec]

One wonders how airline pilots managed before this further cost embuggerance....

[covec]

Originally Posted by Contact Approach images/buttons/viewpost.gif (showthread.php?p=10670456#post10670456)
It’s a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.

Quote: Rotweiller22.
I feel this could become something like the Driver CPC in haulage. The entire industry is against it... Except the training providers.

Hear hear. 👍

Why I voted BREXIT....Dear Old EU Regs.

[IFLYyouBREATH]

I heard that it has to be renewed every year like the UPRT currently done during LPCs....

[pilot freak]

About to finish my A-UPRT with British Aerobatics Academy. I can certainly recommend them. Very professional, to a good standard and friendly.

How long did the course last?

[inabw]

I heard that it has to be renewed every year like the UPRT currently done during LPCs....
When you complete the advanced UPRT course you gain a completation certificate; you dont have no one rating on the license about it so I am not understunding how is possibile make a renewal if its not a rating (in the LPC its part of this).
Is there any official document mentioning this?

[wigbam]

How long did the course last?

If you're a superhuman and the weather is perfect you can do it in one day - 5hr of theory and 3hr of flying afterwards. But flying 3hr of aerobatics more or less non-stop is not something I'd recommend, so realistically aim for two/three days there. I have managed to do it in three since the weather was really bad.

[covec]

If you're a superhuman and the weather is perfect you can do it in one day - 5hr of theory and 3hr of flying afterwards. But flying 3hr of aerobatics more or less non-stop is not something I'd recommend, so realistically aim for two/three days there. I have managed to do it in three since the weather was really bad.

wigbam - is it just aerobatics then? I’ve seen footage from a friend where they appear to be doing formation aerobatics. Is that it?

Could’ve been another student & instructor at end of lesson & no extra flying charge of course.

Some “schools” quoting near £3000!!! Outrageous for 3 hours of aeros...if that’s what they’re doing!

[covec]

Parkfell.

But how come existing airline crew are not doing it? Or will everyone do it at some point?

Also, the bitching is about the sudden added cost not budgeted for by those of us caught ‘twixt TR & 19 Dec.

And £3K is outrageous for 3 hours flying 5 hours TKI. Switch to an Aerobat not Extra 300.

Fortunately, some operators seem happy to assess before AUPRT & for successful candidates to then do the course.

I predict a backlog of some sort - unless AUPRT FIs increase. Aero Schools are going to be inundated. Lotta wannabes out there...brace brace brace!

All that said - of course the training is good. Just please keep the cost down. We’re not all silver spooned darlings.

[wigbam]

wigbam - is it just aerobatics then? I’ve seen footage from a friend where they appear to be doing formation aerobatics. Is that it?
It depends. They obviously make sure you learn the maneuvers which are mandated by A-UPRT curriculum first. Then in case you happen to be done with the mandatory stuff in less than 3 hours you might get some extra flying on top of that, but formation flying is definitely not something they normally do as a part of A-UPRT course. So, if you're lucky you might get it.

[covec]

Cancelled my AUPRT. In wake of Flybe & Loganair having a direct recruiting line for ex-Flybe staff I don’t see the point for sometime (live in Scotland).

Aviation correction coming up? Covid-19. And Grant Shapp announcing today (allegedly? Posturing?) that UK will leave EASA.

[Banana Joe]

Big mistake. Get your qualification and start applying. We're definitely not experiencing a positive trend, but at the beginning you have to try every possible opportunity you may have and go ahead with it. Sitting back is not going to take you anywhere.
​​​

[covec]

Not here in Scotland.

Loganair announced hot line for Flybe crew only recruitment & those of us who had November's Assessment Day cancelled are still waiting - as are those actually selected in October for TRs in January. Latest HR email (last week) they want TR ATR crew.

Eastern want 1000H "experienced FOs".

BA HR email gone out too re situation & how crews might help.

I'll save the cash by keeping the ME IR going.

Maybe Independence will help 😇: staying within EASA contrary to UK Gov. announcement re UK leaving EASA.

Unless "continent" is more competitive than UK right now?

[covec]

Hi. I meant that the hiring situation up here is not good for the forseeable future - according to the Loganair HR email a fortnight ago. They are focussing on ATR rated crews and now the Flybe hotline.

The market is not competitive here unless you are already Type Rated. And just to add fun to it all we’ve an election due by 6th May 2021 which if the SNP wins will for sure (understandably) result in push for IndyRef2.

[parkfell]

I’m not entirely sure hot shot £500 hr fast jet skygods are essential to deliver a 3 hour UPRT flight experience. incorporating this training into cpl would suffice if it’s as important as they make out. Otherwise scrap it all together and continue with the way it’s always worked. If it ain’t broke...

It is part and parcel of FTE JEREZ (f)ATPL / MPL (dormant) courses on their T67 / ROBIN, and has been for a number of years.
You don’t have to have been a “fast jet skygod” to deliver this part of the syllabus. Although given the degrading (aka watering down) of majority of training since CAP509, it would be true to say ex A2 instructors will be in the majority of competent FIs able to deliver it.

[OldSmokey]

Shouldn't all the ATO's which are ATPL (integrated) providers, include advanced UPRT on their syllabus by default? It seems to be dictated on Regulation (EU) 2018/1974 Appendix 3, Section A...

[Contact Approach]

It is. 10 characters.

[piloto1009]

Hi, I have a query and hopefully someone will be able to advise or have first hand knowledge. I have completed my type rating earlier this year although the course did not include the new advanced UPRT course. I passed the type rating although I am told now that the AURPT needs to have been passed and completed before passing the type rating. Does this mean I will have to do my type rating again?

[Hawker400]

Is the type rating in your license?
If yes, then you never have to worry about MCC, and AUPRT in your career.

[piloto1009]

thanks for replying so quickly Hawker.

No it’s not on my licence but LST is done and only base training missing before sending to NAA.

[piloto1009]

Thanks for the advice I feel better now