Rebranching before phase two training (RAF Officer)

[IOTQUERY]

I’m hoping somebody with experience may be able to offer some advice.

I have accepted an offer to enter IOT in the RPAS branch, which is great. However, being a rotary pilot was always the dream - I just happen to be half a year too old for the mainstream pilot branch upon entry.

With that in mind, how feasible is it considering the current climate to transfer branch after graduating Cranwell?

I understand that you are able to rebranch before phase two behinds however is it relatively unheard of?

I passed with a strong aptitude score for Pilot.

[Lima Juliet]

No chance, whatsoever. Sorry.

[Easy Street]

I’m hoping somebody with experience may be able to offer some advice.

I have accepted an offer to enter IOT in the RPAS branch, which is great. However, being a rotary pilot was always the dream - I just happen to be half a year too old for the mainstream pilot branch upon entry.

With that in mind, how feasible is it considering the current climate to transfer branch after graduating Cranwell?

I understand that you are able to rebranch before phase two behinds however is it relatively unheard of?

I passed with a strong aptitude score for Pilot.

Two questions. Why would the age limit suddenly cease to apply simply because you had passed IOT? Why would the RAF create a gap in its RPAS pipeline while adding an extra student to the waiting list for pilot training? By all means ask the question but I suggest that good fortune (for instance, a well-timed mass exodus of student pilots) would be required. Don’t set yourself up for disappointment.

If you are prepared to take a longer view then the chances are much greater. As an experienced RPAS pilot with bags of operational experience, good annual reports, and perhaps approaching a career decision point, you will have leverage that puts you in a much better position to engage with your career manager and negotiate a sub-branch change that retains your experience in the Service. It might not be the best way of moving up the ranks, but if your dream is to fly military helicopters then it’s your best shot IMHO.

[heights good]

Not going to happen, for a multitude of reasons.

And having experienced both sides of the fence; RPAS all the way!

[gijoe]

No chance, whatsoever. Sorry.

Get through IOT. Get CR on RPAS...then look at Aus Def Force. Max age 44ish.

None of this ageist policy decided by pi**-stained wannabes at Air sat in the corner gurning their way through the DT crossword.

’Not like that in my day so it can’t happen.’

...you think I am joking 🙃

[jayteeto]

Take the RPAS and watch this space. I’ve heard that Your wings will be issued as “normal“ pilot badge and rumours are that you will be able to apply to cross over. You might not want to, so best of both worlds

[Lima Juliet]

Just to put Jayteeto’s comment into perspective. Yes, RPAS pilots wear the same flying badge as the other pilot streams. Yes, there is a plan to offer cross-overs to the manned ISTAR fleets in the future - after completing the 6 year initial training return of service (TROS) and achieving a recommend for cross-over and achieving above average assessments and having the correct CBAT stanines for multi-engine flying. It is only expected to be offered to 1-2 per year, just as there are cross-overs for FJ and RW pilots.

As for my original post - there is no way that you will be allowed to cross-over until you have completed your TROS. You were employed to be a Pilot (ISR) RPAS and so that is what you will be expected to do. You were not successful in achieving entry into the RAF for the other Pilot streams and so why would they change their minds? They won’t. Also, you will have read in the Press that there are significant holds for EFT (1-2 years) and so the annual intake has been wound right back. The RAF will have rejected your application for those places either because you didn’t pass your CBAT/Leadership/Interview/Medical stages or that your combined scores were lower than your cohort. That’s just how it is and hence I say “no chance”.

gijoe Don’t be a chimp. You can’t leave until your TROS is complete, which for a first OCU/FTU is 6 years after successful completion. It’s the same for any Aircrew and anyone is free to go if they so wish after that (normal waiting time is 1 year). So if you want to leave a job ~10 years in, then go ahead, slide down the snake in your new service, have to go through a whole bunch of tests/training and start qualification for promotion/pension all over again. The wise person makes that decision to go to Aus before going through all of the RAF’s shenanigans!

[jayteeto]

Thanks LJ, I didn’t know the details

[Sky Sports]

If you're that desperate to fly rotary, try the army. They are crying out for pilots.

[Homelover]

Sitting in a GCS in Las Vegas or Lincolnshire is not "going to war" by any reasonable definition..

BVRAAM, that statement is going to set the cat among the pigeons and, dare I say it, upset some who have been fighting the war on terror for almost as long as you’ve been alive. I’d go back and edit if I were you, before someone takes offence.

[Wrathmonk]

Home lover - agree 100%. I also remember from advice received before going to OASC that responses to questions like “why do you want to join” should not be “because I want to find out what war is like” or such like.

Edited to add - rather ironic user name as well given BVR stands for Beyond Visual Range....

[Lima Juliet]

Edited to add - rather ironic user name as well given BVR stands for Beyond Visual Range....

That my friend is the funniest line I’ve read on the web today! :D

[Lima Juliet]

Apply to the Fleet Air Arm - they recently raised their Pilot age limit to 34. Do it quickly before your CBAT expires, I'd suggest to call them first thing Monday morning.
If you really want to be a military helicopter pilot, it shouldn't matter what uniform you wear - you're fighting the same enemy...

EDIT: I say this as somebody not too far from being in your shoes, but I think it goes without saying that IF it is possible for you to join the Royal Navy this late in to your RAF application (you say you have accepted an IOT offer), then if I were you, I'd start to think of a very good explanation for your sudden desire to fly in the Fleet Air Arm, and your reasoning needs to be more complex than simply, "I just want to fly helicopters."

Like in any job, your prospective employer wants to be confident that you're committed to working for them, and loyalty and commitment in the military means everything, as does integrity. How both Services perceive your integrity, depends if you come across as a spoilt brat who couldn't get your way - and since integrity is one of the principles of security, will either Service really want you involved with their most secretive toys? Especially RPAS, which requires EDV Clearance before you get near the OCU.

It's something to think about - make sure you know everything you can know about the FAA as well, because it's a given that, if it's possible for you to go to Dartmouth, they will want you to have knowledge of their Service before letting you in.
If you get this wrong, not only do you risk never being a military helicopter pilot (why would the AAC take you with a bad reputation from the other two Services?), but you will also risk never being a Military Officer - the RN could say no and the RAF may retract their offer - they could simply give your place to somebody who passed the fitness, medical and the CBAT, but didn't quite do as well as you at interview, but is fully committed to being an Officer in the Royal Air Force. Is it worth it?

Yeah, you say that as an older guy who has, presumably, been to war.

Younger guys who haven't been, want to know what it is like. Sitting in a GCS in Las Vegas or Lincolnshire is not "going to war" by any reasonable definition. Although the former location is freaking excellent if you're single.....
I will probably be the same as you in 20 years from now, but at the moment, like the OP, I'd much rather have "skin in the game." That life experience would be invaluable.

Have you been smoking something??? :ugh:

[Easy Street]

One wannabe giving advice to another on how they’ll be perceived by serving aircrew, in front of serving aircrew... priceless :D

[alfred_the_great]

One wannabe giving advice to another on how they’ll be perceived by serving aircrew, in front of serving aircrew... priceless :D

There's serving aircrew on pprune? Who knew?

[downsizer]

There's serving aircrew on pprune? Who knew?

You win the internet.

[Homelover]

Have you been smoking something??? :ugh:

BVRAAM has been ‘smoking’ bad guys! (Only on his PlayStation though - but he can’t wait to do it for real- he’s ‘locked and loaded’!)
We need more keen young steeley-eyed operators like BVRAAM, I think he should be fast-tracked through IOT and posted straight to Lightning ASAP. He clearly has The Right Stuff....

[Lima Juliet]

Says the other "conventional pilots" on that course have been holding 2-4 years just to get to EFT ground school. You'll have done your 6 years TRoS before many have finished their streamed training never mind OCU.

Rubbish. There is so much wrong with that statement. The current Pilots on IOT will be waiting around 12 months and the waits are getting shorter. Worst case in recent years is around 2 years.

If you know you're capable show them you're capable. Build some credibility and tell them what you want when the time comes, remember the black hole from the current MSFT mess will be rearing it's head in a few years time and they will have many areas they need to cover.

Also, there is no intention to do RW or FJ crossovers for RPAS drivers. Only MEXO are expected and current RPAS candidates are tested for RPAS and ME aptitude. Please don’t make stuff up and set false expectations.

[Flopgun]

Regarding the EFT element, I'm just going from what guys have said getting onto ground school at the moment. I also know a guy who graduated 2 years ago who still hasn't head anything regarding his training... not trying to make anything up.

I've also been told "anything is possible", granted its nothing firm and I'm well aware this type of move isn't common. But an example was given of a guy who crossed to FJ after being on ME. The discussion was all in context of RPAS crossovers and was given by an AVM, so I'd say fairly well substantiated. Again, just going off what I've been told. If the RAF are happy to spread false information to candidates like this then so be it but don't shoot the messenger. And I wouldn't put it down to a "recruitment sales pitch" as I personally made it clear I was past that.

[Lima Juliet]

There is a holdee in our HQ that starts EFT this month - he finished IOT almost 2 years ago to the day. There are students on IOT at the moment who have been told to expect around 12 months from graduating. People starting IOT early next year are expected to have holds of around 6 months when they finish IOT. I’d call your ‘guy’ a fibber if I was you - there is even an app on Defence Connect that allows any student to check their EFT date if they input their Service Number. Also, there are no less than 3x full-time staff looking after the pipeline in HQ Directorate of Flying Training that can give your ‘guy’ his expected start dates any time (although he should have started if he finished IOT 2 years ago!) - sorry, I don’t believe you/him.

Which ‘AVM’ told you that? There are many AVMs in the RAF that know nothing on this subject. You need to go to a source who actually knows real facts rather than some scuttlebutt at a cocktail party.

[Flopgun]

There is a holdee in our HQ that starts EFT this month - he finished IOT almost 2 years ago to the day. There are students on IOT at the moment who have been told to expect around 12 months from graduating. People starting IOT early next year are expected to have holds of around 6 months when they finish IOT. I’d call your ‘guy’ a fibber if I was you - there is even an app on Defence Connect that allows any student to check their EFT date if they input their Service Number. Also, there are no less than 3x full-time staff looking after the pipeline in HQ Directorate of Flying Training that can give your ‘guy’ his expected start dates any time (although he should have started if he finished IOT 2 years ago!) - sorry, I don’t believe you/him.

Which ‘AVM’ told you that? There are many AVMs in the RAF that know nothing on this subject. You need to go to a source who actually knows real facts rather than some scuttlebutt at a cocktail party.

Just what I've heard! Believe me or not...

The "AVM" in question.. I would have thought that an appropriate acronym for "Air Vice Marshall" as that it his rank who I won't name on a forum for obvious reasons). I saw him fit to give the advice being the head of a large frontline group in the RAF, and someone I thought knowledgeable about how aircrew can move around both historically and into the future as he's seen it.

​​​​​​Considering your experience with HQ/Aircrew/career progression etc, how likely is it (in your opinion) a pilot on RPAS could move into instructor position much later in their career? Again, I've seen ME pilots move to BFJT on Tucano as instructors...

​​​​​​

[Lima Juliet]

Flopgun

There is only one ‘L’ in Air Vice-Marshal (and it’s hyphenated).

The Texan will have no RW/ME pilots on it - it is now a FJ only aircraft. So that pathway is now effectively closed. To be brutally honest, as a single-seat FJ fleet now, then it is only really now for youngsters to join it, build the capacity, speed of learning, speed of reaction and ability to build muscle memory. In the past a good WSO or Nav could assist the slower learner in a 2 seat FJ, but the Typhoon and F35 are in a different league to anything we’ve had before. I’ve seen previously qualified Typhoon mates go back to the jet and struggle. It’s also punishing on the body now it’s a 9g game and so unless you have grown up with it, or transitioned to it, then it isn’t for those new to it in their late 30s or early 40s.

The plan is, and always has been, to allow some Pilot (ISR) RPAS to cross-over to the multi-engine ISTAR types. There may be an option to re-role to Air Mobility, but the goal is to retain ISTAR experience and retain the knowledge. No plans whatsoever to cross over to the RW or FJ streams. The first cross-overs are expected to be announced next year - with up to 2 per year from now on (depending on pipeline capacity and the needs of the various forces).

[Flopgun]

I knew it was hyphenated, still got the point across hopefully.

I personally don't have a great desire to pursue a FJ or RW route, I was just giving what information I have to the OP.

I have other routes I hope to pursue. But they do fall largely into instructor roles but its never something Ive been able to get a great amount of information on. I'll likely create another post on here about how to reach that as it's not for here! But thank you for the information LJ.

[Flopgun]

...and here is the problem with pprune...guy asks genuine question to make an informed decision that could affect the rest of his life. Question gets answered by someone claiming to have knowledge whose actual experience is "just signed on the dotted line to become a pilot' (taken from his other thread). In other words, question being answered either by an air cadet or university graduate who incidentally has another thread asking how promotion to Sqn boss works and how he can become a QFI/QWI. I appreciate he might be well meaning, but I hope the OP is taking most of the advice from Flopgun with a pinch of salt.

I was just chiming in with what I've been told...which is the same as what LJ was saying. I was trying to answer it in the context of what the OP was asking which granted I know little about as I'm fresh (as you pointed out) my understanding of "re-streaming" later on in a career is that once you have the experience you can ask... That's all

[Lima Juliet]

You can ask for a ride in the Space Shuttle and the SR-71 - that is isn’t going to happen either! :}

[Flopgun]

You can ask for a ride in the Space Shuttle and the SR-71 - that is isn’t going to happen either! :}

Oh what!? I thought they were going to bring them back just for me...

[Fg Off Bloggs]

I am not up to speed on current happenings but, as an erstwhile Wing Commander Cadets at DIOT, I can add that the system allows cadets at Cranwell to submit a branch change application whilst still undertaking IOT. I had many cadets seek them during my tenure, mostly those trying to avoid Boulmer because the chop rate was so high! The way the system worked when I was there was thus:

Cadet submits application in good faith; cadet gains interview with sqn cdr who provides current policy statement; cadet accepts that and gives up or cadet insists he/she wants to continue; cadet gains interview with Wg Cdr who explains policy again, but cannot stop the cadet pushing for his branch change at that point; application submitted; application rejected cadet remains in allocated branch or application accepted (normally only if there are extenuating circumstances) and cadet goes to the bar with a smile on his face.

The bottom line is, however, that appointments to branches are allocated based on quotas (requirements) per annum. If you apply for a branch change in the same year that the quotas are already filled then you are on a hiding to nothing. Consequently, the best time to seek a branch change is, if you're lucky to be at Cranwell, when the quotas for the following FY are being established. If not, if there are no extenuating circumstances (eg medical that existed when you attended OASC, but has cleared up - and you can prove it) you will be out of luck.

Otherwise everything that has been said before by people who are closer to the coal face than me now, will undoubtedly also hold sway.

Bloggs

[ivor toolbox]

Being a mere mortal here..... Just going back to the Original Post, the OP mentions being declined mainstream entry because he / she was half a year too old at entry.... erm since 2010 Equality Act it has been unlawful to discriminate against someone on basis of age alone, so is this a case of unlawful discrimination or simply a other case of Govt saying do as I say, not as I do? Or did the OP not actually pass selection?

Ttfn

[heights good]

Being a mere mortal here..... Just going back to the Original Post, the OP mentions being declined mainstream entry because he / she was half a year too old at entry.... erm since 2010 Equality Act it has been unlawful to discriminate against someone on basis of age alone, so is this a case of unlawful discrimination or simply a other case of Govt saying do as I say, not as I do? Or did the OP not actually pass selection?

Ttfn

MoD is exempt

[Ascoteer]

We all know that once you have a bit of time under your belt, and know people in the right places, you can 'make your own deal'. If it's helicopters you're desperate to fly, my thoughts would be to finish IOT, then start looking into moving over to Navy/Army. There are plenty prior examples of people doing this, even for those who were over the max age and in an RAF ground branch. It might be you need to see out your RoS on RPAS, but that's no bad thing.