National Service Pilots

[RogerRB]

Following my earlier appeal (August) I would like to hear from any National Service Aircrew (or pilots) who served in the RAF during the late 40's and early 50's for a series of articles I'm writing for an on-line journal.I had one reply from a Fleet Air Arm pilot (a most excellent response1).
However, in order for me to understand the RAF training methods (being ex-N.S. Royal Signals), I need to know where Basic Training was done; how Aircrew were selected: where Flight training took place and, if an N.S. man was selected as a Pilot Officer, where that took place...
I need all the help I can get...…!
Thank you.
RogerRB

[Chugalug2]

If only you'd asked that question 12 years ago :-

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-299505.html

[rotorfossil]

I was on the pilots course with I think the last National Service pilot starting in late 1957.Selection was at the ASC with the other candidates. Basic training at South Cerney, Basic flying training started at Feltwell, then moved to Syerston when Feltwell closed. I seem to remember that he did not proceed to Advanced Training with us when the National Service scheme closed down.

[RogerRB]

Thank you rotorfossil.
What do the initials ASC refer to?
Basic Training at South Cerney- did this cover Drills: Weapon training etc?
Basic Flight training- Chipmunks; Harvards?
I need all the help I can get....

[Tankertrashnav]

ASC - Aircrew Selection Centre - later O (Officer and) ASC for many years at Biggin Hill, but not sure where in the period you are talking about.

[rotorfossil]

Memory has failed where ASC was situated except it was on an inactive airfield northeast of London. Basic training at South Cerney involved a lot of barrack square drill, some weapon trading with rifles and Bren gun. A lot of work in the gym and running around the countryside to improve fitness. Classroom work introduced service procedures, Air Force Law and gereral education subjects and tests on leadership.
The basic flying training was on the Piston Provost, Alvin Leonides radial engine with a cartridge starter that produced a lot of black smoke. My abiding memory is a cockpit that smelled strongly of de icing fluid and Avgas. At the time, basic flying trading was also happening at Ternhill.

[Innominate]

I think ASC was at Hornchurch.

We have a (late) friend who trained on the Percival Prentice, then Harvards and went on to fly Meteors. I should be able to get access to his log book next week and will check locations and units.

[Pom Pax]

Memory has failed where ASC was situated except it was on an inactive airfield northeast of London.
Hornchurch in the mid fifties.

Chugalug2s link answers most of your queries
If only you'd asked that question 12 years ago :-
https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-299505.html
Reading that link I was saddened that the posters I knew are no longer with us and surprised that I had contributed and even written some sense,

[DODGYOLDFART]

ASC definitely Hornchurch at least from 1953 to 1958. However basic training was a bit mixed with some doing eight weeks square bashing at various places Bridgnorth, Padgate and Hednesford come to mind. Followed by either twelve weeks on the Isle of Man at Jurby if you were selected for officer training. Some went to Kirton Lindsey for basic training and for pilots on to 6 FTS at Ternhill. Those selected as NCO aircrew went elsewhere but I cannot remember where. A few direct entry chaps got lucky and were still sent to Canada to do their pilot training, this may have included some National Service chaps.

[air pig]

Maybe worth contacting Lord (Norman) Tebbitt who i believe may have been an NS RAF pilot.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Freddie Forsyth author of Day of the Jackal and regular contributor to the Daily Express was I believe a National Service pilot and probably one of the last!

[kenparry]

My late brother was a National Service pilot, then stayed in on a regular commission until age 38. He had done 1 year as a UAS student before starting NS. He went first, about October 1955, to Kirton in Lindsey for about 3-4 months for the ITS course (initial officer training), and at the end of that he was commissioned as Acting Pilot Officer. He was then among a group that went to Canada on the NATO pilot training scheme; others on his course included Italians, Belgians, Danes, and perhaps others. They did about 9 months on the Harvard at Penhold, Alberta, followed by 6 months on the T-33A at Gimli, Manitoba. He was fairly unimpressed by the standard of training; all his RAF contemporaries with no previous flying experience failed the Harvard course.

They crossed the Atlantic by sea; just before coming home, they learned of the Sandys Defence White Paper and the huge imminent changes it brought.

[JW411]

ASC was still at Hornchurch at the beginning of 1960. South Cerney was No.1 ITS (Initial Training School) when I got there on 08.08.60. No flying - just square bashing.

[rotorfossil]

The ITS moved from Kirton in Lindsey to South Cerney just before I joined in October ‘57

[teeteringhead]

Maybe worth contacting Lord (Norman) Tebbitt who i believe may have been an NS RAF pilot. He was - flew Meteors; as did Freddy Forsyth (and just about everybody in those days I think)

[DODGYOLDFART]

Lord Tebbitt was lucky to survive a bad accident at Waterbeach when his Meteor 8 failed to unstick off the runway during an exercise in 1954. Not sure if he was still NS or had joined the auxiliaries by that time. So you may get a good story or two out of him!

[teeteringhead]

So you may get a good story or two out of him! You certainly do!

I had the delight of sitting next to him at a dinner in London. When he discovered I was a pilot, his reaction was roughly:

"Great, we can talk about aeroplanes and not politics!"

[Pom Pax]

BEACH NEWS Journal of Waterbeach Community Association Autumn 2011 No.228.
It was intriguing to learn that Norman Tebbit (Lord Tebbit) whilst visiting Waterbeach as an auxiliary air force pilot, horrifically crashed on takeoff, skidded across the Car Dyke and the A10, and nearly burned to death in the field opposite.
I saw the scene a day or two later.

[Wander00]

I was 'selected' at Hornchurch and Daedalus House. South Cerney I visited frequently when a RCT TA Movements Officer and it was the Air Mounting Centre. Our RCT(V) HQ was Prince William of Gloucester barracks, formerly RAF Spitalgate. The Colonel was not impressed when he asked if I had visited in my RAF days and I admitted "Over the wire when it was the WRAF Training Centre"

[pr00ne]

The Aircrew Selection Centre was at RAF Hornchurch until 1962, when it was merged with the Officer Selection Centre at RAF Uxbridge, and relocated to RAF Biggin Hill, that had been vacated by the Auxiliary squadrons, as the OASC. ITS moved from Kirton in Lindsey to South Cerney in 1957, was rebadged as the Aircrew Officer Training School and later had the Primary Flying Squadron with Chipmunks added before the whole lot relocated to RAF Church Fenton in 1968.

[5aday]

BEACH NEWS Journal of Waterbeach Community Association Autumn 2011 No.228.

I saw the scene a day or two later.
I as at School in Waterbeach and during the weekdays I used to go up to the A10 and watch all the aeroplanes that Waterbeach had to offer. We used to lie directly under the approach which was probably where Mr
Tebbit ended up when he failed to take off. Imagine this : I watched a bunch of Venoms of 253sqn joining overhead then coming in to land across the A10 and the aeroplanes were passing over us about 30 to 40 ft ish. Then I went home for my tea (32 AMQ if any of you knew Waterbeach - now Park Crescent) followed very quickly by my dad still in his flying overalls and he was on a mission. He knocked ten shades of S--T out of me - and I never ever went back to the undershoot by the A10. In later years he told me he recognized me
as he was about to flare in his Venom. QED.

[Innominate]

Further to my earlier post: We have a (late) friend who trained on the Percival Prentice, then Harvards and went on to fly Meteors.

His logbook shows that he was at 1 FTS, Moreton-in-Marsh from February 1954 to January 1955, where he flew Prentices and Harvards, then a week later he went to 211 FTS, Worksop, to fly the Meteor T7 and F8. After receiving his wings in August 1955 he was posted to 22 Sqn at Thorney Island, where he seems to have cadged a few flights in Whirlwinds, Chipmunks and Varsities before leaving the RAF in October at the end of his National Service.

[Pom Pax]

For background reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Air_Training_Plan
In 1956 a fair proportion of pilots and all navigators passing out of No 1 Initial Training School at Kirton in Lindsay were continuing their training in Canada, With the winding down of the program in Canada the last navigators to take part past out of 1 ITS in March 1957 and pilots in May. I was as part of that May course and was p*ssed off by having missed the nav cut off by 8 weeks.
Now all cadets passing out of 1 ITS became Acting Pilot Officers so travel to Canada was 1st class on Cunard. However on arrival in Canada they lost their exalted status and were treated as cadets in common with all the other NATO students. As such they were billeted in groups of 8 with no two students having a common 1st language. On successfully completing their Canadian training R.A.F. students (now again APOs again though having been paid as such all the time) had further training to operate under European conditions. For the navs this course was 12 weeks.
My school mate traveled Liverpool Halifax and returned New York Southampton on the Mauritania to be at 2 ANS Thorney Island at the same time as me.

[RogerRB]

Good evening to you all,
The information you have provided so far has been very helpful; however I have some more questions for you....
After a meeting with Lord Tebbit he gave me an overview of his flying career commencing in 1949; however there are some areas of his N.S RAF training that I need help on ie he was posted to Wittering for ground school and there he became an Officer Cadet and wore a blanco-ed belt and cap band. Can any one tell me more about Wittering and its training programme?
From Wittering he went to No 8 FTS @ South Cerney (which according JW411 was Basic Training Depot) where he flew the Percival Prentice aircraft. How long would that have taken?
Re Forum member INNOMINATE; would it be possible to obtain copies of your (late friends) Log Book as I'm unlikely to see Lord Tebbit before the end of the year and when I do I want to be in a stronger position information wise than what I am now......

[Innominate]

RogerB - I will try, but it might take a few weeks.

[MPN11]

The Aircrew Selection Centre was at RAF Hornchurch until 1962, when it was merged with the Officer Selection Centre at RAF Uxbridge, and relocated to RAF Biggin Hill, that had been vacated by the Auxiliary squadrons, as the OASC. ITS moved from Kirton in Lindsey to South Cerney in 1957, was rebadged as the Aircrew Officer Training School and later had the Primary Flying Squadron with Chipmunks added before the whole lot relocated to RAF Church Fenton in 1968.
Scraping the old grey cells, ISTR I did:
1961 - Hornchurch, Test In Advance for Cranwell [deemed unsuitable]
1962 - Biggin Hill, Flying Scholarship [passed, gained PPL].
1963 - Biggin Hill, Flying Aptitude tests, then to Gosport for RN Aircrew Selection [passed, failed flying grading at BRNC]
1964 - Biggin Hill, OASC [passed, became GD(G) ATC].

It was on the latter visit to OASC when, in the Candidates' Bar, the Barman looked at me at said, "Hello, Sir - back again?". My fellow candidates in earshot paled slightly.
At the Interview stage of that visit, they had a rather thick file on the desk. The lead interviewer said, "Ah, Mr MPN11, I see you've been here before."
It all got easier with practice [and persistence]. :)

[rolling20]

He was - flew Meteors; as did Freddy Forsyth (and just about everybody in those days I think)
William Woolard, he of Tomorrow's World and Top Gear fame, was I believe a national service pilot, though I stand to be corrected. His Wikipedia page said he was born in 1939, yet he gave an 'eyewitness' account of a meatbox crash in 1952 on 207 AFS at Full Sutton, that would have made him about 13! It's either badly written or his birthday is wrong.

[ian16th]

There is a member of Johannesburg RAFA who was a NS pilot, flew Halifax's out of Gibraltar, in the late 40's.
I'm not in touch, as I moved away, but might be able to arrange an intermediary.

[XV490]

RogerRB,
Beware Norman Tebbit's recollections. His autobiography, Upwardly Mobile, said his first Meteor OCU was at Middleton St George, but interviewed recently he said it was at Driffield (before finishing conversion at Stradishall).

[RogerRB]

After a long period of personal hiatus I have restarted the article about Norman Tebbit using his book using Chapter 2 of his book 'Upwardly Mobile'. According to the book he is now on his way to 36 P