Vulcan Bomb-Aimer Position

[charliegolf]

Quickie... I am seeing references elsewhere to 'the Vulcan bomb aimer's prone position' window. Really? Ever?

CG

[ACW418]

CG

They all had one - mostly used to store things on normal trips. PN most probably used one doing visual bombing so he will no doubt give you the facts.

ACW

[Davef68]

I beleive that the original idea was, as a last resort if all else failed, one of the Nav's (I think Plotter) could use a manual bomb sight in the window on the bump underside.

[charliegolf]

Well isn't every day just a school day!:ok: Cheers. That was me on Walt-Watch. Lucky I asked the grown-ups before opening my gob!

CG

[BEagle]

A bed was also installed over the visual bombing couch to carry the occasional VIP, I understand. Although in my time they usually had more sense and would prefer to fly in a VC10.

It is said that the CDS who murdered TSR-2 was once due to fly in a Vulcan to the Eagle River Conference, but which was actually thought to be a fishing trip. The saga became headline news after a groundcrew member told his wife. CDS cancelled the trip to prove that the story was false, but let his displeasure be known....

[Timelord]

During my time (74-79) an F95 camera was mounted above the vis bomb aiming window for Low level bomb scoring. The nav rad ran the camera approaching the target and the kit put a marker on the release frame. Once developed the wing weapons staff pored over the photos with a 50 thou map and identified the release point. Applying the release parameters recorded by the plotter allowed a forward throw to be calculated and thus an impact point and score. All very important for crew classification! I never got the hang of changing the cassettes though- leading to many void attacks in Goose Bay.

[Tankertrashnav]

The Victor had a prone bomb aimer position too. Here's a photo of a B1a with the bomb aimer in position

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10220945363010209&set=pcb.2439604309619640&type=3&theater&ifg=1

[Helena Handbasket]

Darn. I thought that it was a job opening. I was going to apply.

[charliegolf]

Lying down for a living-perfect! I knew about the Victor, but not the Vulcan. TTN, which member of the crew would have been the bomb-aimer? I assume he was a nav of some flavour?

CG

[Davef68]

Lying down for a living-perfect! I knew about the Victor, but not the Vulcan. TTN, which member of the crew would have been the bomb-aimer? I assume he was a nav of some flavour?

CG

Nav Plotter I believe.

Just for completeness, the Valiant had one too in the same locattion as the Vulcan

[Fareastdriver]

On long, in flight refuelled, Valiant Lone Rangers we used to put the Elsen in the bomb aimers position.

[Tankertrashnav]

charliegolf I was only a tanker man so never even went into that position for a snooze in all the 6 years I flew on the K1, so I wouldn't know who did the visual bombing. P-N will let us know whether it was the plotter or radar on Vulcans.

[Wander00]

Wish I could see the picture - FB says not available or only to limited audience, must be navs only!

[scorpion63]

Prior to 1968 a T4 bomb site was fitted around that time the F95 camera came onto use, fitted onto the bomb site spigot either one or the other could be used. Used at Cottesmore from late 1967 onwards. F95 controller operated by Rad Nav

[Dougie M]

In the mid 60s Canberra Navs had to do the Vulcan conventional delivery bomb aimers course based at Lindholme flying Varsities armed with 25ib smoke and flash bombs.

[pembroke]

Two memories from Cottesmore, (sac airframes!). The window was an exact fit and sat on a bed of araldite, first time I had used it. Also, there was an official B Cmd Mod to install the bed for VIPs, plus large jubilee clips for fishing rods, in the bomb bay!

[Tengah Type]

All the V's had a Visual Bomb Aimer Position in them. Normally fitted, in their earlier days, with a T4 Bombsight. They were operated by the Nav Plotter as the Nav Radar was busy playing with his magic Televison machine. The accuracy of the Visual bombsight was significantly better than the Radar, but did require you to identify the target. This could be difficult/impossible at night or in cloud. I have seen it being used to drop 112 lb practice bombs on Song Song range in Malaysia.

The Victor K1 and K2 had three windows in the nose for this purpose. Over the years on the K1 and K2 there had been no need for these, so whenever a window had become unserviceable it had been replaced by a metal plate, which was cheaper and lighter, so most aircraft had some or no windows.

When Op Corporate was activated there was a requirement for Photo Recce of Port Stanley, and the only aircraft which, with the aid of Air to Air Refuelling, could do it was the Victor K2. The first Victor K2s that went to Ascension in 1982 were all fitted with nose and left hand side windows to allow cameras to be operated. A major operation was required to retrieve windows from various old aircraft from the Fire Training Schools at Catterick and Manston, as well as Museums at Duxford and in the USA/Canada.

Fortunately we were never called upon the fly down Port Stanley runway at 250 ft in daylight to take photos. Surely a postumous DFC for the captain and bugger all for the others.
However I believe the Victor AARI on Black Buck One may have witnessed the attack from the Bomb Aimers position.

I have, however, used it in Victor K1s for the run in the airshows.

The Visual Bombing Course at Lindholme was standard for all Canberra, & V Bomber crews, as well as Argosy and Shackleton Navigators who were deploying to the Middle and Far East.

[MPN11]

In the mid 60s Canberra Navs had to do the Vulcan conventional delivery bomb aimers course based at Lindholme flying Varsities armed with 25ib smoke and flash bombs.
Was that when they bomber the pub near Strubby? ;)

[Archimedes]

Wish I could see the picture - FB says not available or only to limited audience, must be navs only!

At a guess, this one - credit to the Imperial War Museum, © IWM (RAF-T 1010)


https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/523/933/mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=Photographs (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205214156)

[Dougie M]

Allegedly the ladies loo of the Prussian Queen pub, reported in the press as "A flash in the pan"

[Bill Macgillivray]

I remember (vaguely) in late'60's early'70's (would have to consult log-books!) conveying a very senior WRAF officer (She was one or two star, can't remember which, but the highest ranking lady I can remember from that time) from Waddo to Goose in the mighty Vulcan. A remarkably comfortable looking bunk plus curtain etc ...) was set up in the bomb aimers position for her flight. Waste of time/effort as she spent all her time finding out what every crew member did. A real pleasure to have aboard!

Bill

[NRU74]

Taking this thread a bit down market...
Masirah to Gan (after a fairly ‘heavy ‘ night.)
Half way up the climb in a Victor K1A, Captain says I’ve got a bit of a problem !
Fuel tray in the ‘Up’ position JB exits the LHS,we empty the ration box and he has a touch of the ‘green apple quicksteps’ into the box helped by a few superfluous plotter’s charts.
Ration box placed on the bomb aimer’s window, heat turned off so it freezes over fairly quickly.
Only need oxygen for about 20 minutes until the atmosphere is.., er.. OK
Land at Gan and explain the problem to the groundcrew.

[Specaircrew]

Taking this thread a bit down market...
Masirah to Gan (after a fairly ‘heavy ‘ night.)
Half way up the climb in a Victor K1A, Captain says I’ve got a bit of a problem !
Fuel tray in the ‘Up’ position JB exits the LHS,we empty the ration box and he has a touch of the ‘green apple quicksteps’ into the box helped by a few superfluous plotter’s charts.
Ration box placed on the bomb aimer’s window, heat turned off so it freezes over fairly quickly.
Only need oxygen for about 20 minutes until the atmosphere is.., er.. OK
Land at Gan and explain the problem to the groundcrew.
Been there, done that in a Vulcan. Plotter was a bit pissed off because the emergency bog paper was torn off from his chart and we hadn’t flown that bit of the route yet!

[Wander00]

Thanks for pic, Ref senior WRAF officer, guess in those days could only have been DWRAF in them far off days, a job Aunty Joan was allegedy offered and similarly allegedly responded that if she was too be an *adjectival) air commodore she would be a proper (adjectival) air commodore!

[Pontius Navigator]

I would not call the T4 computer manual nor would I confirm it being more accurate than the radar.

The T4 had a gyro stabilised sighting glass and the computer was fed airspeed and altitude etc. If the computer was U/S the sighting head could be used in manual mode.

In the Varsity, at 4,000 feet and 150 kts 17 feet was possible.

For any accuracy the Vulcan bombsight had to be calibrated. We would go to El Adem range to drop 16 single 100lb practice bombs from around 45k. Forward vision was around 15 miles. With a forward throw of 7 miles the plotter had just one minute to identify the target and align the aircraft. To assist the nav rad, who also controlled the bomb selection, would direct the aircraft toward the target. Once sighted the plotter could steer the aircraft though a rotary knob and the auto pilot. The bank sensitivity could be adjusted.

Apart from the poor visual range the weak point was the physical linkage to the gyro stabilised sighting glass hence the need for calibration. On our first run everything was fine until the plotter started to direct aircraft. I saw the bombing director indicator drift off and aborted the run. I did the same for the next two runs until the skipper said to let the plotter drop one. It landed 1,600 yards off. The next at 1,400. Thereafter we dropped the rest on radar.

As it happened the aircraft had only been calibrated the week before and we should not have been allocated that one. Back at Cottesmore I challenged the IX Sqn plotter. He agreed that the first bomb was way off so he simply aimed off. Prat. That would be no use to the next crew on an operational first run attack.
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[Fareastdriver]

It landed 1,600 yards off. The next at 1,400.

That would have been a direct hit in WW II.

[Lima Juliet]

This is the Bomb Aiming Window in the Tin Triangle...


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/338x450/image_f9cd459f06572a3c1257fc32e4e14a432d85102b.jpeg

Here it is from the outside...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/863x749/image_4d4bf0ce3613357a68b03d0cd66bcce308050242.jpeg

And another...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/image_e55cb4cb4ce3e28b0e29e4c2fd321e5ed87b1f0e.jpeg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/682x1023/image_6c3f55c6b0b3922a6d337bf5b08d742c7cc3e427.jpeg

[Pontius Navigator]

The third and fourth pictures show the prone position cover stowed forward against the forward bulkhead. The cover would normally be down to protect the sighting head and provide a smooth working platform to get at the kit under the pilots' seats. Also for access the radar forward of the bulk head. The first image shows the access to the radome.

In that last picture, on the right is a brown cable which protects the bomb firing button. The button grip is the grey corroded shape to the right. The red safety flap would because locked when a nuclear weapon was loaded.
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[Slow Biker]

Back in the mid '60s I worked on SongSong range, a set of islands off the Malaysian mainland; two weeks on, then a trip back to Butterworth to see civilization for a weekend. On occasion we spotted for Vulcans dropping 100lb practice bombs. The target was called a barge, in reality it was a large floating metal box structure. The wait after the 'bomb gone' message seemed ages, I was told the release point was Perai railway junction, maybe someone can confirm that. I never saw a DH, although memory tells me the aiming point was offset to avoid the damage a DH would cause. The Vulcans provided a bit of variety from the bread and butter work with Canberras dropping 25lb PB and RAAF Sabres with 3in rockets and 30mm. Night bombing was not enjoyed as it involved a trek through the jungle in the dark on a narrow path - far too much rustling going on out of sight. But we could be rewarded watching turtles come up the beach under the quadrant lights and lay their eggs; occasionally we would spot a monitor lizard plundering the buried eggs.

.

[Pontius Navigator]

Once spent a pleasant afternoon on Song Song range. Did two high level drops with 100lb PB and we also did one visual drop with 25lb PB. In both cases we aimed to hit the target confident that we wouldn't.

For a radar attack we actually aimed at the Song Island itself with the equipment offset to drop the bomb on the target.

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[Fareastdriver]

Did not Song Song came to we known as Phuket?

[Slow Biker]

Song Song range comprises a group of three islands some 25 miles north of Penang. One was the base with domestic facilities, the other two were used for target spotting and air/ground gunnery. The RAF Marine Craft Unit based at Gleugor ran a taxi service to the islands. Not as exotic as Phuket I'm afraid.

[lauriebe]

Song Song range comprises a group of three islands some 25 miles north of Penang. One was the base with domestic facilities, the other two were used for target spotting and air/ground gunnery. The RAF Marine Craft Unit based at Gleugor ran a taxi service to the islands. Not as exotic as Phuket I'm afraid.

Am presently sat at my computer with my back to the window.

Swings chair around and looks out of said window to the north. On the murky horizon, can just make out the outline of Pulau Bidan, the largest of the group of three islands. It was Bidan that had the accommodation for the range.

The other two islands, Pulau Song Song itself and Pulau Telur, are hidden behind Bidan so not visible from my location.

Just found this on the interweb. Might bring back a memory or two.

https://www.expatgo.com/my/2016/05/23/island-hopping-in-kedah

[Tengah Type]

Slow Biker

At Song Song Range we did indeed use an offset on the Float Target, to avoid damaging or sinking it. We built in a correction factor to the Bombing Angle at the Bombsight Sighting Head to give a 200 yard undershoot on the target.
In 1964 or 65 the target had been replaced with a brand new float, The first attack, with 25 lb Practice Bombs was made by a 45 Sqn crew. They applied the 200yd offset, but, unfortunately the Nav Observer managed to drop the first bomb with a 200 yd error. It was of course an overshoot, so, inevitably it was a Direct Hit on the Float Target causing enough damage for the target to need to be towed away for repair. He was not very popular at HQ FEAF.

[scorpion63]

The metal structure over the bomb aimers window in picture 4 is the F95 camera support minus the camera

[Pontius Navigator]

Not sure which range but I know one DH hit the gas bottles and it was spectacular.

In the 60s a direct hit was rare. By 2000 targets were frequently damaged and were often more hole than target.

[Fareastdriver]

Told to me by a navigator in the early sixties so I don't know how true it is:

In the days when Valiants used to carry a 10,000 inert in the bomb bay to simulated a nuclear bomb load there was a sudden loud thump in the back and the radar saw to his horror that the inert had released itself and was resting on the bomb doors.

After much discussion up to 3Gp. level it was decided to jettison it over Wainfleet Range. On the way the Nav Radarwas told to treat it like a 'type 0' as it's ballistic properties were unknown.

With the target on the radar the bombing function was selected and the autopilot guided the aircraft unerringly to the release point.

At one minute to go the bombing function opened the bomb doors.

They never did find it.

[diginagain]

In that last picture, on the right is a brown cable which protects the bomb firing button. The button grip is the grey corroded shape to the right. The red safety flap would because locked when a nuclear weapon was loaded.
​​​​​​
And the oven-gloves?

[Pontius Navigator]

And the oven-gloves?
Obvious init, to get the soup cans out of the heater.😀

To be honest I have not the vaguest memory of them. Probably a fire as somewhere too.

What I do remember was the leak patches stowed on the back of the rear crew seats before they were changed for swivel seats. IIRC these were patches perhaps 12 inches square, sheet of rubber type, a number of steel rods and a wire mesh. Never saw one opened or practiced. I think in the event the aircraft sustained battle damage I was supposed to find the leak and place the repair panel over it. As almost every skin area was covered with fuse panels or inaccessible behind equipment I don't think there was much chance of them working.

[diginagain]

:D

and some other stuff

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, not heard about that. I know they dropped Blue Danube shapes off Jurby Head. Fishermen complain their nets get caught in them.

In the 60s and before there was The Wash Jettison Area. This was actually further north than The Wash.

For interest, ballistic computation of forward throw was done by the Calc 3 into which was fed the ballistic properties of the bomb to be dropped. We used a 'ballistic cassette' which contained a 35mm film and was like a punched paper tape through which a light was shone.

Until the late 60, as all bombs were dropped from high level, we used the Ideal Bomb which did not suffer any drag. This film was Bomb Type Zero. Using the Ideal Bomb for forward throw (the crew would not have had the real ballistic data) would result in a longer forward throw. A real bomb dropped using Ideal Bomb forward throw might land over a mile short of the target.

[Slow Biker]

Lauriebe, great pictures. Unfortunately, as a callow 20yr old I didn't appreciate I was living and working on a tropical paradise! I did enjoy it though. We entertained ourselves, plenty of badminton with the Malay deck hands off the marine craft (they were too good for me),fishing most days. The Indian cook kept us well fed, but he refused to cook a curry although the fitter who looked after the generators would make a mean one at the weekend. Occasionally one of the local fishing boats would call us over if they caught a decent size barracuda, a swap of couple of tins of peaches would secure supper. I enjoyed being transported to work by the Target Towing Launch, two Sea Griffon engines gave quite a turn of speed; not so much fun on the landing craft fully loaded with fresh (!) water.

PN. You probably destroyed the lights on the high level target; we would go out at dusk to light two sets of lights for night bombing. Rather pleased your off-set equipment worked, otherwise your 100lb'er could have destroyed our bar.

[biscuit74]

Am presently sat at my computer with my back to the window.

Swings chair around and looks out of said window to the north. On the murky horizon, can just make out the outline of Pulau Bidan, the largest of the group of three islands. It was Bidan that had the accommodation for the range.

The other two islands, Pulau Song Song itself and Pulau Telur, are hidden behind Bidan so not visible from my location.

Just found this on the interweb. Might bring back a memory or two.

https://www.expatgo.com/my/2016/05/23/island-hopping-in-kedah


Gosh, that sounds superb, on a cold and windy night in the UK!