Jet2, Tui Or Ryanair?

[jetblast101]

Which is best to work for? 3 airlines with a huge presence in the UK (2 of them being British of course), all of which operate 737s and have various bases throughout the UK, meaning that for those of us with 737 ratings and experience and being from the UK, they all have huge appeal. Who has the best and worst pay, time to command, getting preferred base, leave system/allowance, perks etc etc etc

[Skyhigh86]

We have had tens of people join TUI from FR and Jet2.

I don't know of any that have gone the other way, i think that answers your question.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I'll bite simply as it may help some of the TCX guys who have decisions to make...

There is no doubt TUI offer a better overall package but that gap is fast closing and not much use if you are already a Captain.

Circa 117k for a Jet2 Captain for 450 to 600 hours per year, plus optional profit share after a year which is an additional 8k so 125k total.

36 days AL plus 36 days requested days off (RDOs), the latter are capped at 3 a month and both can be booked online through a very handy system well in advance. I already comfortably have all of my personal days off and leave booked off between now and October 2020.

Only getting bigger and overall a great place to be right now. For experienced FOs, 6 to 9 months to get your third stripe depending on the time of year, SFO pay roughly 77k plus 6k bonus for similar hours as above. Time to command realistically 18 months to 3 years and your face does have to fit, the pass rate has improved dramatically over the last 2 years with the new command process also.

People do leave to go to TUI to fly the 787, but 757 replacement will be announced next year and with TCX gone long haul is inevitable here in the future.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

NEVER the latter.

[eduelp]

Ryanair, through all their other range of race-to-the-bottom sister brand names, are right now imposing paycuts of up to 25% one base at a time using their usual divide and conquer bullying tactics. My advise would be not to get anywhere near them right now

[Callsign Kilo]

People do leave to go to TUI to fly the 787, but 757 replacement will be announced next year and with TCX gone long haul is inevitable here in the future.

I hope not. Leave it to TUI, BA and Virgin. Longhaul is a fantastic way to haemorrhage cash

[Skyjob]

All depends on age and qualifications.
If you are young and have time on your hand working towards retirement, TUI seems best option.
If you are a captain looking for a new similar job, Ryanair may well be best option as expansion in Jet 2 over last few year has ceased and in TUI there is a seniority list.

Circumstances differ.

[MaverickPrime]

You've got to wonder if TUI or Jet2 would end up going the same way as Monarch and TCX someday.

[booze]

If I were ex-TCX today I would look at RYR/EZY/WZZ. Those are the ones to survive in the long run besides some of the regionals (with good network) and the usual suspects (IAG/LH/AF-KLM). I doubt if there is any future for the charter/leisure operators (in the long run). Brexit or not, the UK will still remain part of the European and Trans Atlantic aviation market, which is something to consider when looking for a secure job (if anything like that exists these days...).

[Whitemonk Returns]

Laughable to suggest RYR or WZZ as better options... Uproot your family to live in Eastern Europe? As nice as parts of it are, no thanks.
Ryanair are literally forcing people to move country to a new base or accept unpaid leave and will screw you any chance they get, and will never ever change.

TUI/Jet2 are both profitable business who treat their staff with respect and pay them well. TUI are suffering with the Max but with the demise of TCX both companies are poised to be THE major players in the UK holiday market over the next decade.

People fly with RYR/EZY because they have to, people fly with TUI/Jet 2 because they want to.

[dirk85]

Most people I know would kill to have a job in ezy, never heard the same for jet2 (or tui for that matter), but hey, we are all different.

[booze]

Eastern Europe, dirk85...might be acceptable for their stag parties, but for anything else, good old stiff upper lip prevails...just wondering how long those Jet2, TUI and the likes will be around with the current purchasing power (and Pound exchange rate) of the British holidaymaker.

[VJW]

People fly with RYR/EZY because they have to, people fly with TUI/Jet 2 because they want to.

The thing laughable here is you speaking on behalf of the whole airline travelling public...

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

People fly with RYR/EZY because they have to

You NEVER have to fly with Valdermort Airlines, there is always another way.

[733driver]

Ryanair are a last resort. See latest base closures and threats of redundancies while at the same time expanding their lower cost group airlines (Lauda, Buzz etc)

[A and C]

whitemonk, I cant help thinking you are geographically challenged, WZZ have a Luton base and last time I went north on the M1 Luton was a few miles up the road from Watford.

I beg your forgiveness if Luton has in fact been moved to Eastern Europe in the last few months but refuse to be drawn on the question of the merits of moving Luton far to the east.

[FGE319]

Laughable to suggest RYR or WZZ as better options... Uproot your family to live in Eastern Europe? As nice as parts of it are, no thanks.
Ryanair are literally forcing people to move country to a new base or accept unpaid leave and will screw you any chance they get, and will never ever change.

Wizz have a base at Luton now that was short staffed when I spoke to someone in July. I work for another A320 operator based at another London airport, but have seriously considered going pink as their terms look very attractive, especially regarding mainly 2 sector days (I'm not getting any younger). I've worked in Eastern Europe previously both within aviation and outside of it and enjoyed it, so personally wouldn't be phased if LTN isn't available, however for anyone else it's naturally a matter of personal choice.

I have never worked for Ryanair, but spoke to a Luton-based Captain when going on holiday in January who is happy there. For those with a family Ryanair can in many cases be ideal, it's why I've stayed with a carrier that has me in my bed every night rather than one that doesn't.

In answer to the original question, Jet2 and TUI are likely to remain the dominant players in holiday travel, so the question is whether people will continue to book holidays in the way they do now. I personally prefer to DIY to places people don't naturally go (hence using Wizz a lot for personal travel), but there is a market for packages out there and that's likely to remain.

[Whitemonk Returns]

My tone re WZZ was unintentionally dismissive but I don't see them as a realistic option. If you are in your 20s and single I would be there in a flash believe me. Only option is a LTN base in the UK as mentioned and as far as I can tell they provide zero pension contributions. Happy to be corrected on that one but thats what it says on PPJN, I do know people who work for WZZ who are happy however, most went there for the quick commands and good on them.

EZY pay well but I have absolutely no interest in working as hard as they do with the tax system in the UK.

RYR only as a last resort

500 hours a year, 5.5k minimum a month plus pension​​​​​​, plus profit share and part time options widely available after year 1. I truly wish there were more options in the UK to spice things up a bit but right now Jet2 is the only game in town for DEC. Happy hunting.

[frozenpilot]

Personally, I see this as a seismic shift in the job market for Airlines! The days of loyalty and long term secure job prospects are gone! For anyone to say the package holiday is dead is talking utter rubbish! Two major tour operators that have failed recently (TCX AND Monarch) we’re down to incredibly poor management, lack of shire from ownership and inability to react to a changing market. Speak to any person with young children who want to dump their bags at check in, fall out of a foreign Airport onto a coach, arrive at a hotel where their families and children are catered for ... They will tell you just how valuable a package holiday is! Jet2 are very very good at this! Award winning at it in fact. I do not believe for one second the package holiday is dead... Why are Easy Jet planning on selling holidays? Also, the ABTA/ATOL bond will scare the great British public into booking package deals, especially as the all inclusive element will help protect against a very weak pound. I for one see a future in both TUI and Jet2. The very unfortunate demise of Cook has possibly caused a correction in the market. But Jet2 are 50/50 package/seat only, so are therefore well placed to capitalise on a dynamic market.

Truth is, those of us who have been around long enough to see the market cycles since 9/11 can attest that there is no certainty or predictability. I have the misfortune of being a BA Pilot and would suggest a third runway at Heathrow will certainly not provide stable long term employment, but the emergence of other carriers! Quite simply no one knows, but I think it’s fair to say the days of joining an Airline with the expectation of waiting ones time, feeling warm fuzzy and secure are gone! It’s better to expect to move around to suit the needs of you and your family..... That is what matters and many Pilots seem to still chase the big ticket gigs.

I am deeply saddened by the failure of TCX it was genuinely the best Airline I flew for, but, I have zero doubt the great people who are enduring dark times right now will be scooped up quickly and there will undoubtedly be new opportunities in the form of expansion or recruitment season from other Airlines once the dust has settled.

[Global_Global]

Let's be clear: any company will do EXCEPT any Ryanair related rat company :mad:

[silverhawk]

I have worked for all 3

Jet2 were the friendliest and since BALPA recognition are certainly more stable and expanding. 5 good years there and would go back.

TUi/Jetairfly were the best in regards to training and encouraging manual flying skills were maintained and improved. Equipment was excellent. 2 good years in challenging locations and would go back.

that other option, hmmm? 18 months was 12 longer than I liked. Worst operation I have ever seen out of the 14 I have worked for around this planet. Would rather drive my truck than be associated with that again.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, to satisfy the legal restraints................

I speak only the truth and still await your closure. X

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Nice post Old Wise Silvery one, and nice to catch up with you the other week.

[olster]

I have worked for J2 and Tui or whatever they are called this week. J2 for me.

[UAV689]

Ryr are in the process (again) of attempting to drive down their staff costs in double quick time. The delay to the max means this year is probably the first year in many a year, where they have not had a single frame delivered.

Couple that with the almighty narrowly getting his 100m bonus signed off a few weeks ago, means his main lever to increase profits at present is to squeeze staff. Shutting down bases for ryr “mainline” and opening up the contractor version of the same company is happening, just as many predicted. Its widely predicted every single base east of german down to cyprus will go to ryr buzz/sun.

The main alarm bell you need to know about ryr, is look at where their staff come from. 90% cadets, the other 10% come from less reputable airlines or parts of the world. You never see a ryr driver from ba/vs/tui/j2/ezy/af/lufty etc.

this should tell you all you need to know!

[H44]

I know a few people from Jet2 who went to Ryanair, but that’s neither nor there I guess as I wouldn’t touch Ryanair with a barge pole, especially in the current climate.

I’ve worked for TUI and Jet2. Personally, TUI suited me better. I know it’s horses for courses, and Jet2 do have their plus points such as a quick command, but for me, the variety of flying (long haul, Canadian detachments etc), rostering agreements, part time options, and overall terms and conditions were significantly better when I worked for TUI.

[skyflyer737]

You never see a ryr driver from ba/vs/tui/j2/ezy/af/lufty etc.

this should tell you all you need to know!

Not true. Agreed, not in huge numbers but there are quite a few ex BA at Ryanair. I am one and I personally know several others. There are also ex Virgin guys here, ex Tui 787 Capts and plenty back from Jet2. I flew with one yesterday. I also know of a couple of ex Easy guys so to say you never see any of those in Ryanair is inaccurate.

It may not be to everyone’s liking and that’s understandable but there are many advantages of Ryanair. The money is good, quick command, huge variety of bases and the 5/4 roster is fantastic. That’s my take on it. Others will of course be quick to offer their alternative opinion.

[Boeing 7E7]

Not true. Agreed, not in huge numbers but there are quite a few ex BA at Ryanair. I am one and I personally know several others. There are also ex Virgin guys here, ex Tui 787 Capts and plenty back from Jet2. I flew with one yesterday. I also know of a couple of ex Easy guys so to say you never see any of those in Ryanair is inaccurate.

It may not be to everyone’s liking and that’s understandable but there are many advantages of Ryanair. The money is good, quick command, huge variety of bases and the 5/4 roster is fantastic. That’s my take on it. Others will of course be quick to offer their alternative opinion.

well of course there will always be an exception to the rule! But the overwhelming movement of pilots is away from Ryanair to airlines like TUI. The ex TUI B787 captains that you might know, almost definitely left TUI because of ‘differing opinions’ about their suitability.

[MaverickPrime]

Yes, and there has been a handful who have tried a few months in BA and jet2, hated it and promptly returned to Ryanair - and I hear the ex monarch recruits were generally pleasantly surprised. For a while, Ryanair was kind of ok, even quite good, but changes in the last year or so, seem to now be setting in motion a mass exodus of experienced and 'mature' crews, which could bite them in a number of ways.


Whilst I'm no fan of Ryanair, I would like to know where the mass exodus will be heading to in the current climate, unless they are willing to spend sometime wondering in the wilderness.

The only companies recruiting en masse are QR, EK or asian outfits.

[UAV689]

The most frustrating/horrible aspect of voldemort airlines is the the awful way that the dna of the dark lord himself has infected every branch of the company.

He has created an atmosphere which PB himself said is toxic, pitching hq staff against pilots, base managers sent to do the evil work of disciplinary meetings for being sick for 4 days in a year..he has created a mentality in which everyone in hq (it feels like) is actively encouraged to try to find new ways to shaft their fellow colleagues, all to ensure the dark lord wins is 100m bonus. Most of the Hq staff are all young children or in their first office job and as such do not know any better, much like the vast majority of pilots who are from the cadet stream and also believe this to be the norm...!!!

Note in the latest round of pay cuts and contractorising you will never see the big players names signing these memos...they would not dare incriminate themselves, instead allowing the minions to do it for them.

There is a huge culture of fear, some staff still too scared to carry a fuel load that is different to what the plog says, a culture of rushing at every possible instance. Even some captains afraid of putting the apu on in 25 degree heat....

If you can put this mentality aside, and not let it effect you, the 5/4 is great if you are at home. However the constant barrage of belittling memo’s eventually grinds everyone down...


To summarise, TUI for a long term career if you are young, J2 if you are an established pilot already, Macdonalds, Burger King, Pizza hut then Voldemort Airlines.

[MaverickPrime]

Yes, "mass" is probably the wrong word, but the majority of experienced crews I speak with have recently put in applications to move on - and as you say, the names most commonly mentioned are QR, China, or jet2, (and BA and TUI in the case of FOs). With most of those, there is many months of lead time between application and start date, so the effect would kick in roughly when the max's start arriving in big numbers.

Are most of the people leaving, contractors or leaving from buzz etc? I know Ryanair is back to their old tricks with some of the new companies in the group, though is there any sign of them reintroducing the ltd company/self employed setup at Ryanair DAC?

I’ll be sniggering with glee :E if they are loosing crews again when they have to scramble to crew up for the MAX arrival.

[skyflyer737]

The reason I post so infrequently on pprune is that whatever I post is deemed wrong and I’m the exception to the rule.

I just wish to write so some balance is provided. I, like many others, and the vast majority of those who I fly with, train or line check, are happy and settled in Ryanair, enjoy the job, enjoy the time off even more, and ignore the nonsense from management, of which I agree there is much. If you need extra fuel, take it. If you want the APU on, switch it on.

Of course, many leave and I understand that. But sorry not to tow the pprune party line, but many here enjoy it!

[skyflyer737]

I totally agree Midnight Cruiser.

[flyfan]

Same here. Blueyellow may be not perfect (see points above), but it is often greatly exaggerated how ‚bad‘ it is to work for them. Roster‘s good, no (planned) night flying, mostly nice crews, planes maintained well, salaries ok (at least if you compare them to Lauda, Volotea etc)
Regarding fuel: An Ex Air Berlin Captain said once to me that he‘s taking more fuel now, than he used to do with AB. Never had any problem with that, as long as you‘ve got a reason for it. Don‘t take 5t extra just for fun...but I guess no airline would be too happy about that.

And there are plenty of guys coming from other airlines: As I said, Air Berlin, Germania, Emirates - i‘ve even flown with a former LOT Pilot.

[Vokes55]

And there are plenty of guys coming from other airlines: As I said, Air Berlin, Germania

It must be a great job if people are leaving these two airlines to join.

or refuse to do extra sectors because, well, you just don't feel like it,

Thankfully in the real world, we have things called "rostering agreements", that prevent the company from adding an extra 6 hours to the end of your day whenever they feel like it.

Come on, the day to day can be fun if you're with the right person, but that's the same at any company. Let's be realistic, it's an awful place to be. A toxic company with bullying from the top down, everybody is in it for themselves. How effective was the last Ryanair strike? Completely useless, as there's plenty of people willing to throw their hands up and volunteer to trudge across Europe on three jumpseat flights just to say they helped the company out.

The 5/4 roster is great, if you want to spend your retirement in a box in the ground. Five 4-sector days in a row is not sustainable for a 30+ year career.

Job satisfaction is key, and if you enjoy working for Ryanair then that's great and nobody can take that away from you. But let's be real, they're bottom feeding bullies single-handedly dragging down T&Cs across the industry. The fact that it seems outrageous to decline extra sectors given to you as you taxi onto stand shows you everything about the culture of the airline, and the fear they've successfully installed within their spineless workforce.

Just my opinion of course.

[UAV689]

Not only a lack of rostering agreement, but in most countries still a mental leave system, month off in winter, and 10 ad hoc days for the rest of year. If you you have kids you can basically kiss goodbye any form of leave with your family in the summer.

At j2 (could be mistaken, please correct me) do they not get 36 days leave vs ryr 28 (18 days assigned in ryr month off even if that month you was only rostered for 15 days..) and 36 confirmed bookable days off? A much better system, far better than the 5/4. Most people again this year will be assigned pretty much all their leave in Jan-March, leaving potentially 11 months without leave...or worse, leave in January, and not again until December the following year, nearly 2 years without any meaningful leave, and this does regularly happen to many crews.

And do not forget, the 5/4 is there for Voldemort’s benefit, not yours, never believe otherwise.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I honestly do not understand what is attractive about 5/4. Like the above poster states it is not for your benefit it is so they can maximise your productivity. I appreciate everyone's family situation and partners schedule is different, however I have never once been rostered 5 days of actual flying in a row at J2, I think I was rostered 4 once! Never done more than 2 sectors, it simply does not happen here unless you have to position an aircraft off an ASB.

I can book all of my kids school holidays off in a brilliant/simple online system with instant approval subject to the availability, which I can see on a separate page.

J2 is not perfect, but it's light years ahead of ​​RYR

[Say Mach Number]

Who cares who the 5/4 benefits, could be the devil himself I will take it any day. No through the night flying, No start before 0525 and not a finish after 2400 I have seen in my base recently. With 5/4 and leave included you work less than half the year. I think it worked it out one year as 176 working days in the year or something like that. Month off not perfect but got June this year - well happy with that. Yes plenty 4 sector days but this week flew only one 4 sector day.

Cant speak for TUI but advise from co-pilot I flew with recently who returned from Jet2 was that "its a Capts airline". FO's treated better in Ryanair cockpits and only join as a DEC.

Ryanair is marmite. Most people who join will know within 6 months if its for them or not.

Echo comments about fuel, apu usage etc

I would welcome a change in attitude in management however Im not sure that revolution is coming anytime soon - even with BALPA.

[Callsign Kilo]

The fact that we are now talking about Ryanair ‘Mainline’ vs Ryanair Buzz/Ryanair Sun alongside Laudamotion says everything. The term ‘divide & conquer’ has been synonymous with FR for as long as I care to remember. You can talk all you like about 5/4 rosters and a more pragmatic approach from flight ops; the same line of defence existed when I was there. Senior management have a bee in their bonnet when it comes to crew; it’s their way or the highway and that makes for a pretty uncomfortable feeling.

[Bam Thwok]

I have never once been rostered 5 days of actual flying in a row at J2, I think I was rostered 4 once!

Lucky you....... you’re obviously not on the same type, seat and base as me. 🤪

[SeaBreeze1]

I left RYR for TUI 2 years ago after a 7 year stint. Do I miss it? God no. 7 years of not being able to get a mortgage due to the questionable tax-dodging self employed contract I was on, a month's unpaid leave every year which of course was not the month you wanted. Zero pension for 7 years of my career. 12-hour standbys under house arrest which you don't get paid a penny for unless you get called. Command upgrades requiring a "mandatory base move" even though my UK base was desperate for commanders. Meanwhile senior TRE's telling me I should stay put because the package they're on is amazing and that could be me one day...pass the sick bag. It's only now I realise how soul-destroying 5x 4 & 6 sector days are compared to the 2 sectors I fly now - i'm actually enjoying my job and my spare time more since I'm not spending it sleeping. It's stockholm syndrome at it's finest - some at RYR will tell you how good it is (I was one of them!) but you simply don't realise until you break free. Things may have changed there since, but I can only reflect on the reasons why I left at the time.

I can only speak for TUI, but I believe at J2 life is also a massive improvement.

[733driver]

Even though some things may have changed for the better temporarily at Ryanair they are still a terrible company in my book and should be avoided if at all possible. That includes their group companies as well of course.

[High Viz Vest]

Personally I would say Jet2, Tui and Ryanair in that order.

Things have improved recently at Jet2 and Ryanair but as the post above says Ryanair still have a way to go. Tui seems to be in a state of flux right now aircraft wise maybe with a lack of aircraft and Jet2 seem to be going towards Airbus which might be a shrewd business move. I worry that Jet2 might be biting off more than they can chew sometimes but you have to be aggressive I guess in business, look at Ryanair.

Just my thoughts based on some experience.

[BluSdUp]

I just ran into a few old friends that was a bit frustrated with present employer.
Can any of You be so kind and update us on who is taking Senior FOs and Direct Entry Captains in Europe.
Just out of pure curiosity: Is RYR active whatsoever with regards to recruitment?
Does Norwegian need pilots when the Max comes?
Interesting year ahead.

Happy Landings
Cpt B

[BehindBlueEyes]

I understand that Jet2 have suspended B737 recruitment temporarily. I have a disappointed close relative who was very keen to transfer to them, as a good friend who is already there, had very positive things to say about employment and morale at Jet2. Timing was just wrong, which was a shame as the relative had the hours and experience and was looking to relocate anywhere just to be back in the uk.

[Callsign Kilo]

I understand that Jet2 have suspended B737 recruitment temporarily. I have a disappointed close relative who was very keen to transfer to them, as a good friend who is already there, had very positive things to say about employment and morale at Jet2. Timing was just wrong, which was a shame as the relative had the hours and experience and was looking to relocate anywhere just to be back in the uk.

as you say, it’s a temporary suspension due to extremely low attrition rates. Airbus seems to be the belle of the ball at the moment. Some movement from the 737 fleet may see things pick up again

[Thepirate]

Anybody know the latest re Alicante? Will the base last and have I any chance of a DEC? (9,000hrs plus mostly baby bus)

just for clarity J2 specifically

appreciate it

[corporaljones]

Plenty have come to Tui from both ryanair and J2, don’t know of any who have gone the other way...

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Loads

Can you quantify that?

You make it sound like there were numerous, whereas I believe that number to be very few indeed.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Historically people did not come back to J2 from TUI but those days have ended. Several returns from TUI are in the system for this training season, and I personally know two recent rejoiners: one from BA and one from Virgin, both citing lifestyle, the former felt like just a number at BA, the latter wanted to be home to see his kids grow up. I was pleasently surprised to see a grown up response to their returns from the company, no interview was required just a quick sim check to keep HR happy and within, 6 months they both were on command courses.

[Boeing 7E7]

I think the fact remains that TUI is still a very good company to be part of and mainly due to its legacy conditions. These conditions have been watered down significantly over the year, but relative to other airlines, they are good. But the pressure is relentless from management to reduce the lifestyle.

What seems to be clear is that Jet2 have had to up their game significantly in recent years in order to attract the pilots they need, commensurate with their expansion plans. Jet2 is now significantly larger than the TUI uk fleet.

I work for TUI and worry that Jet2 offer a superior holiday product to TUI. Once the public wake up to this, I fear for TUI!

[Rated De]

Drinking out of a puddle is the alternative faced a thirsty person.
Ryan air is toxic.

[Well Used]

I left Jet2 to return to Ryanair. I wouldn't describe Ryanair as toxic more that if you know what you're getting and more importantly not getting and can live with that and enjoy it then you'll get along just fine. Quick commands at both RYR and Jet2 but several years wait at Tui i believe.

The 5/4 roster was the reason for me, I can plan for my kids now and as ones just started school and another starting next year it works a treat for us.

[Boeing 7E7]

Quick commands at both RYR and Jet2 but several years wait at Tui i believe.


Oh the irony! No long ago, time to command at TUI was around 15 years. To wait less than 5 years is simply extraordinary. And appears now to be taken for granted!

[BluSdUp]

Just out of curiosity: What is the hrs needed and time to command in Jet2 and RYR now.

[Banana Joe]

Last I heard a few months ago, in Ryanair it is 2900 hours plus at least a winter season in the company and two good previous sim sessions.

[BluSdUp]

Indeed Banana Joe, but last upgrade finished linetraining late fall, or rather an OCC that I ran into. He just made the last course last summer I believe.
So the question is rather when is the next upgrade planned.
Lots of FOs with way past 2900hrs now. Mind you some are not flying much this winter, rumor has.
Any updates form the upgrades in RYR and other 737 operators, anyone?

[Whitemonk Returns]

Jet2 is 3000 factored hours to apply, a good recent training history and 6 months post FLC for a new joiner. It is now a positive and rewarding process if you manage to jump through the many hoops they have created.

Similar to RYR however things are starting to slow down depending on your base preference, slots will forever be available in LBA for example but the Boeing que for MAN is currently 35 people long and growing, with the majority currently biding their time in LBA for at least a year. Also all 757 pilots have recently been told they are guaranteed a place in MAN once the fleet goes in 23/24 in their current role.

[Banana Joe]

I know nobody has a crystal ball to predict the future, but how is Brexit going to affect Jet2 in the future? Will they still have their ALC base?
How big is the holding pool for 737 FO's and is there any timeline for next recruitment drives?

[Whitemonk Returns]

The ALC base is long established and having recently invested in quite a bit of airport property at the overseas bases I would imagine their future is quite secure, if anything I would expect more bases to open in a few years once the dust has settled.

As for the 737... everything, and I do mean everything, has turned its focus onto the Airbus program and the mad scramble to get it up and running in the next few weeks. Things will start up again but if I had to guess I would say they are crewed up for this season and it will be Autumn before it starts again.

[Dog Star]

TUI seems to have the better working conditions

[karanou]

As a long term prospective employer you don’t have to look much further than the three airlines very varying loyalty to those recently employed/ in holding pools, and response to the challenges the wiser airline community currently face in the near to mid future.

from very good sources I understand one of the following statements can be linked to each of the OPs identified three airlines.

Airline a) cutting and carving crews with abandon.

Airline b) informing those in the hold pool they are no longer needed after assuring those passing assessment they were needed (meanwhile continuing to assess further candidates)

Airline c) securing everybody in employment and keeping promises and looking to mitigate the challenges by offering crews part time/unpaid summer leave/varying flexible Agreed options

It may be possible to determine who A who B and who C are, I also understand C also owns their own hotels, ocean liners have good loss of licence/PHI benefits as well as concessionary travel amongst many perks. If anecdotal evidence proves to be true then there’s a varying degree of loyalty to newly started/holding pool individuals

it’s fair to say low cost suits some people, but there are many benefits to a more upmarket airline that others may enjoy. In simple terms do your research in each case and ascertain how you want to be treated through your career. And how desperate you are for the left hand seat. Prob 24 months difference for the right candidate from the more basic low cost airline/ to the less low cost airline cheap and cheerful holiday/ to the more upmarket airline/tour operator.

[UAV689]

Ryr just had their pay proposal in the UK voted down.

In the proposal was a payrise of about 0.7% a year for capts, and a huge 80,000 cut for new upgrades over a period of 8 years...

They have thrown their toys out the pram so badly, they have forced STN and EDI bases to a 5/3 roster at their latest attempt to threaten and blackmail staff to accept another paycut....

[Captain Spam Can]

As a long term prospective employer you don’t have to look much further than the three airlines very varying loyalty to those recently employed/ in holding pools, and response to the challenges the wiser airline community currently face in the near to mid future.

from very good sources I understand one of the following statements can be linked to each of the OPs identified three airlines.

Airline a) cutting and carving crews with abandon.

Airline b) informing those in the hold pool they are no longer needed after assuring those passing assessment they were needed (meanwhile continuing to assess further candidates)

Airline c) securing everybody in employment and keeping promises and looking to mitigate the challenges by offering crews part time/unpaid summer leave/varying flexible Agreed options

It may be possible to determine who A who B and who C are, I also understand C also owns their own hotels, ocean liners have good loss of licence/PHI benefits as well as concessionary travel amongst many perks. If anecdotal evidence proves to be true then there’s a varying degree of loyalty to newly started/holding pool individuals

it’s fair to say low cost suits some people, but there are many benefits to a more upmarket airline that others may enjoy. In simple terms do your research in each case and ascertain how you want to be treated through your career. And how desperate you are for the left hand seat. Prob 24 months difference for the right candidate from the more basic low cost airline/ to the less low cost airline cheap and cheerful holiday/ to the more upmarket airline/tour operator.

Karanou which one of these airlines will make you redundant the quickest? Tip ask a 100 from 2010, there’s no loyalty from airlines when times are tough. Make your choice based on what works for you and any mouthes you need to feed.

[bringbackthe80s]

What he said. May I add, in this time and age there is simply no need for charter operations.

[Vokes55]

What he said. May I add, in this time and age there is simply no need for charter operations.

High load factors and record bookings, even in the current climate, would suggest otherwise.

[mustbeaboeing]

Passengers on UK Charter Airlines also have ATOL protection, which many members of the public, regrettably, have used of late.

[karanou]

Karanou which one of these airlines will make you redundant the quickest? Tip ask a 100 from 2010, there’s no loyalty from airlines when times are tough. Make your choice based on what works for you and any mouthes you need to feed.

I think we are on roughly the same page there.

I guess the more aggressive business model company will likely cut you adrift more clinically as you are purely an asset to be used and abused. With a great view from the office window of course! In the same circumstance as present news I think you can plainly see who would cut you adrift at the slightest challenge to the airline, then who you may have slightly more loyalty from and who would actually keep you as far as practicable. The proof is in the three respective actions recently. I understand my account to be reasonably factual as I’ve sources in all three airlines. It’s there it’s as factual as I can be. It appears to be happening thus .

We all have differing circumstances, outlook and life experience. And view of the future. With this in mind and considering the chance of which outfit has a stronger long term future, the truth is nobody really knows. However you may also, have to factor in the OP question about the three B737 outifits and relate summararily the potential from the non B737 operators who are aggressively currently muscling into the charter/package holiday market. EasyJet are a very strong and wealthy airline and in the three quoted airlines I think it’s fair to say, and I stand correcting here, are looking to enter the market somewhere in a similar position to Jet2. I’m no expert but my understanding is that Ryanair are still a point to point low cost operator.

However, If RYR/Wizz et al also look to follow ezy move, and look for reach further into this area of opportunity by business model amendment then you may well have 4 airlines now in the lower echelons of the holiday package market (don’t quote me on this.... and if MOL is reading - you don’t need to go here it will cost you too much money. Honestly) 🙂 then all vying for the same hotels same routes trying to expand continually. That would become quite a cat fight god forbid it happened.

Ill be honest on a personal travel level then the days of me buying stand alone stuff has plateaued. I still do it in certain circumstance but have gone back to the full covered package in recent times. For reasons stated in a post above

Interesting times indeed. It’s certainly time to do very far and wide research when looking to select your career airline. I still maintain being treated right with respect and humility is important to many people. Some will accept anything under the guise of company propaganda. But Conversely many will have the ability to see outside this.

[Vokes55]

Passengers on UK Charter Airlines also have ATOL protection, which many members of the public, regrettably, have used of late.

On a similar note, only one of the above airlines is repatriating all of their customers from Italy this week.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Massive thread drift but TUI and particularly Jet2 have little to fear from Easyjet or God forbid, Ryanair, entering into the package holiday market.

It's called customer service. The latter two dont have any. They are fine to get a cheap return ticket to a city of your choice but no way would any sane individual trust their yearly family holiday to be run be either of them. For sure they will be cheap, but you will get what you pay for.

[BluSdUp]

Here is a quick question for all of You:
Is anyone hiring as of the last week? Ie, Has any of You been on courses that has been canceled etc?
I know there is a slight delay , especially in larger airlines, but quite frankly, any airline that has not stopped ANY hiring until further notice must be severely out of touch with reality.
Same goes for upgrades.
Good luck to all.

BTW
I took a rather dead end job in 1989 as an instructor and finally got my Class3 Instructor , as opposed to some of my more picky classmates in Gimli that only hung around places with twin aircraft.
I knew the economy was slowing down.
Found out what Resession was like ,the hard way, and here we go again!
Its all about economy and longterm goals,,,
Regards
CptB

[Mr Good Cat]

As a long term prospective employer you don’t have to look much further than the three airlines very varying loyalty to those recently employed/ in holding pools, and response to the challenges the wiser airline community currently face in the near to mid future.

from very good sources I understand one of the following statements can be linked to each of the OPs identified three airlines.

Airline a) cutting and carving crews with abandon.

Airline b) informing those in the hold pool they are no longer needed after assuring those passing assessment they were needed (meanwhile continuing to assess further candidates)

Airline c) securing everybody in employment and keeping promises and looking to mitigate the challenges by offering crews part time/unpaid summer leave/varying flexible Agreed options

It may be possible to determine who A who B and who C are, I also understand C also owns their own hotels, ocean liners have good loss of licence/PHI benefits as well as concessionary travel amongst many perks. If anecdotal evidence proves to be true then there’s a varying degree of loyalty to newly started/holding pool individuals

it’s fair to say low cost suits some people, but there are many benefits to a more upmarket airline that others may enjoy. In simple terms do your research in each case and ascertain how you want to be treated through your career. And how desperate you are for the left hand seat. Prob 24 months difference for the right candidate from the more basic low cost airline/ to the less low cost airline cheap and cheerful holiday/ to the more upmarket airline/tour operator.

With the greatest possible respect,
this sounds like you are trying to sell things to yourself, based on a decision you made. Did you recently join, or are planning to join TUI?

Upmarket airline? The passengers are the same bog-standard mix you get on any European airline. They get on, have a drink, buy a bit of food and duty free. Then they get off. Sounds a bit pretentious to pretend otherwise. ‘Upmarket’ would be flying in First or Business on a full service airline.

Regarding securing people’s futures... they didn’t about 10 years ago. And like all airlines they’ll do whatever they need to do this time around. Some guys who joined recently are being forced on to a fleet they didn’t want (permanently) after being promised something else. Just like other airlines do.

I wasn’t aware of B telling the hold pool it wasn’t needed, but I will enquire this week. Sounds like a load of rubbish.

More fake news and misinformation probably.

[SAB]

Did the TUI brigade see what the Company did to their Colleagues in TUIfly Nordic?

Business as usual.

[karanou]

“With the greatest possible respect,
this sounds like you are trying to sell things to yourself, based on a decision you made. Did you recently join, or are planning to join TUI?”

Not personally, but for balance person giving me the lowdown may have this angle.

“I wasn’t aware of B telling the hold pool it wasn’t needed, but I will enquire this week. Sounds like a load of rubbish”

Maybe a wise move go ask the question prior posting publicly. I have it on good authority they dropped people like a hot potato. ‘after assessing, placing in a hold pool then confirming - the job no longer exists’ happy to be corrected should you find out different. Again I may be off the mark happy for you to correct me if this is the case.

[Black Pudding]

Maybe a wise move go ask the question prior posting publicly. I have it on good authority they dropped people like a hot potato. ‘after assessing, placing in a hold pool then confirming - the job no longer exists’ happy to be corrected should you find out different. Again I may be off the mark happy for you to correct me if this is the case.

Can you clarify, do you mean after they were put into a hold pool or after they had been offered a start date ?

[Jonty]

I know people in the hold pool with B, and I haven’t heard that.

[macdo]

Would not have thought this a few weeks ago, but, if I had to choose between these three in the current climate, I would delay that choice as long as possible. To misquote, 'it's only when the tide has gone out, do you discover who isn't wearing a swimsuit'.

[Mr Good Cat]

Maybe a wise move go ask the question prior posting publicly. I have it on good authority they dropped people like a hot potato. ‘after assessing, placing in a hold pool then confirming - the job no longer exists’ happy to be corrected should you find out different. Again I may be off the mark happy for you to correct me if this is the case.

Well, two guys I know in the pool haven’t been told that. If true, and it’s the ones with minimal experience, then I feel sorry for them. I can’t see the benefit of any company dropping them from the pool. I know how it works at Company B, and the pool isn’t picked from based on date of interview - they pick on suitability, experience and availability to name but a few criteria. There’s really no benefit in taking them off file.

[karanou]

Well, two guys I know in the pool haven’t been told that. If true, and it’s the ones with minimal experience, then I feel sorry for them. I can’t see the benefit of any company dropping them from the pool. I know how it works at Company B, and the pool isn’t picked from based on date of interview - they pick on suitability, experience and availability to name but a few criteria. There’s really no benefit in taking them off file.

Obviously there must be some benefit to the airline to drop people out of the pool. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

challenging times ahead for all airlines. Hopefully the negative effects don’t impact any more people than absolutely necessary.

[SEBBES]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what Jet2 are doing with their crew during this period? It's been quite public what TUI and Ryanair are doing but, unless I've missed something, very quiet from Jet2?

[bex88]

No news from my friend on the inside.

[nowhereasfiled]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what Jet2 are doing with their crew during this period? It's been quite public what TUI and Ryanair are doing but, unless I've missed something, very quiet from Jet2?

Nothing. Nobody is working apart from the odd rescue flight, but nobody has been laid off/furloughed/sent on UPL, All crews are on Home Standby or Reserve. Some are still in the SIM in Bradford as far as I’m aware.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Some are still in the SIM in Bradford as far as I’m aware.

The sim centre closed the night Boris put us in lockdown(ish)

[Altostratus]

Jet 2 have a healthy balance sheet

[Brian Pern]

Jet 2 have a healthy balance sheet
They won't if the lockdown lasts a few months. Paying salaries to staff is all well and good, but companies are not charities, especially as the Government has offered to step in. Sad to say, but I don't see many people going on holiday this year, it's going to be a tough ride for the Holiday Airlines.
l

[Boeing 7E7]

Nothing. Nobody is working apart from the odd rescue flight, but nobody has been laid off/furloughed/sent on UPL, All crews are on Home Standby or Reserve. Some are still in the SIM in Bradford as far as I’m aware.

Just to clarify... Jet2 staff are still receiving their normal salary?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Just to clarify... Jet2 staff are still receiving their normal salary? - yes they are.

[Brian Pern]

- yes they are.

Which is going to cripple them sooner than later, if they are paying the whole Dart Group then they will soon swallow any money they have. Sadly its not good for business

[JM926]

Which is going to cripple them sooner than later, if they are paying the whole Dart Group then they will soon swallow any money they have. Sadly its not good for business

I’m sure the directors of the business will be aware of how long they can continue paying what they’re paying and I’m sure if they need to change the current arrangement to ensure the longevity of the business then they will. They’re not stupid....

[Brian Pern]

While it is nice to see Jet2 paying their staff, they have got no money comming in, the Dart Group may still be busy as they are a logistics company, but they will not be able to prop up the company for ever. With no outside income, any airline will struggle.
Summer 2020 is as good as written off, anyway you cut it. Jet2 several years ago decided to focus on holidays, this will affect their future massively, in hindsight the Airbus expansion was not a good idea, they will be the first to go, Jet2 have massive overheads, they have their own handling, employ more people at the check In than their competitors, which is all money. This thread is about 3 large operators, sadly I think the two companies who rely on Holiday traffic will struggle to survive, if they do they will be much mich smaller.

[flocci_non_faccio]

I actually tend to think that if any company is going to come out of this well it'll be Jet2. People will be going on their two week summer holiday when this is over, whether it be this year or next. I'd not be surprised to see a busy winter 20/21 too for them and TUI. I'd expect business and city break type travel to suffer more than bucket and spade flying, and as I understand it Jet2 have a very loyal customer base and seem to major on customer service. I've no doubt that if it were permitted, Brits would still be travelling abroad now. It's in the psyche.

I don't know enough about the company to judge what will happen to the Airbuses. I do think it's only a matter of time before Jet2 joins the rest of the industry in enforcing paycuts/ unpaid leave. That seems inevitable.

[Brian Pern]

Well, in 2019 the group Staff Salary costs were £412,400,000 or £35,360,000 per month (yes that is millions) all off their report and accounts.
People will want to travel, that is a given, most working people won't have any money for holidays this summer, so won't be going abroad anytime soon. However people will still travel for work and other needs, which suits the low cost operators not holiday companies.
For all everyone's complaints Ryanair are best suited to survive this and they are still paying their staff somthing at the moment.
This has the potential to put the industry back years, or even decades.

[flocci_non_faccio]

A lot of working people didn’t really have the money to travel before this crisis but still found a way to! The two week summer holiday is ingrained in the British psyche and I think that is going to continue. What the yield is going to be on those holidays though...it’ll be all about bums on seats I suspect. Hoteliers will be applying the same logic. I expect there to be some amazing deals to be had.

In complete agreement about setting the industry back decades.

[hec7or]

Do Jet 2 have a chain of High Street shops to support like TUI Travel have, or is this something they don't need due to internet sales, I would be concerned about the overheads of a retail store, would a bailout cover the rental and business rates or just the staff salaries?

[Vokes55]

most working people won't have any money for holidays this summer, so won't be going abroad anytime soon..

Really? In this industry maybe, but in the real world, many people are still working (from home) on full pay, and spending far less on things such as eating/drinking out, recreational activities, petrol and other bills. The majority of people that I know outside the aviation industry will come out the back of this with more money. None of the cars in my cul-de-sac have moved for 5 days.

I think the holiday companies will do just fine. After weeks trapped indoors, everybody is going to want their summer holiday. Winter bookings are going to be at an all time high, with many of the holidays that were booked for April-June being deferred until later in the year. As somebody else mentioned, it's business travel that will suffer as companies realise they don't need to pay extortionate amounts on J-class travel for a meeting that could take place over the phone.

[Big Tudor]

Do Jet 2 have a chain of High Street shops to support like TUI Travel have, or is this something they don't need due to internet sales, I would be concerned about the overheads of a retail store, would a bailout cover the rental and business rates or just the staff salaries?

No, Jet2 do not have any high street shops. All retail on the high street is done through independent agents who Jet2 have built up good relations with over the years. Direct bookings are through the website or call centre.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

It was reported from LBA that Dart Group had a war chest of £400 million for an event exactly like this. If nothing moves, Jet2 burns through £1 million per day.

There is also £1.5 billion in cash reserves. Nearly all the ground staff and cabin crew will be getting most of their salaries paid by Rishi.

Whilst the impact will be huge, Jet2 should weather the storm.

[excrab]

As generous as JfP makes them sound, all J2 have done at the moment is to pay March salaries in full. Much as I would like to think they will keep paying my full salary, the sensible thing to do would be to keep as small a skeleton staff of management and engineers as possible on a reduced salary and furlough everyone else. When an upturn eventually comes they can unfurlough the trainers, get people current in the sim whilst still furloughed (which is allowable under the government rules) and then bring people back onto salary as the flying programme requires.
Not doing something like that and taking any help available whilst it is available would appear to be very bad business sense... I’d rather be paid £2500 per month by the government and still have a job at the end of this than getting my full salary and see the company fold or have to make compulsory redundancies later.
Noticeably the Tui group has already had 1.8 Billion euros from the German government. Whether any of that filters to Tui UK I don’t know, but they have already put staff on half salary and stopped all training courses for those recently recruited.

[hec7or]

No, Jet2 do not have any high street shops. All retail on the high street is done through independent agents who Jet2 have built up good relations with over the years. Direct bookings are through the website or call centre.

In that case, I would presume that Jet2 will be more able to weather a prolonged hiatus than the traditional vertically integrated tour operators.

[Crewing Gimp]

While it is nice to see Jet2 paying their staff, they have got no money comming in, the Dart Group may still be busy as they are a logistics company, but they will not be able to prop up the company for ever. With no outside income, any airline will struggle.
Summer 2020 is as good as written off, anyway you cut it. Jet2 several years ago decided to focus on holidays, this will affect their future massively, in hindsight the Airbus expansion was not a good idea, they will be the first to go, Jet2 have massive overheads, they have their own handling, employ more people at the check In than their competitors, which is all money. This thread is about 3 large operators, sadly I think the two companies who rely on Holiday traffic will struggle to survive, if they do they will be much mich smaller.

Brian I seem to remember you were getting a little stressed out about the airbus a few months ago.

When the airline starts up again I can assure the airbus will operate, the company wouldn’t of continued training flights till the day after the final holiday customers returned home.

People want to go on holiday, and will remember what Jet2 did to get them back home over the last month.

All airlines big or small are in trouble, the government will need to choose who they rescue with furlough etc.

But Jet2 have money in the bank, which will hopefully see it through these uncertain times.
which of course the government can assist with its managed return to the sky.

The way I see it is it will be 3 winter costs in a row, Then the return of airlines and holiday companies for Summer 2021, whoever survives will prosper massively. And who says the company will focus on holidays only on its return? Flybe have already left a big gap in the market.

The Gimp

[AIMINGHIGH123]

I’m not fully up to speed with Jet2 latest but I thought the travel side barely made any profit anyway?

Distribution side will be doing even better now.
Cargo is massively important at the moment.
BA flights are still only really operating because of the cargo side of things same as EK.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

I’m not fully up to speed with Jet2 latest but I thought the travel side barely made any profit anyway?

Distribution side will be doing even better now.
Cargo is massively important at the moment.
BA flights are still only really operating because of the cargo side of things same as EK.

What a load of tosh. Before posting garbage perhaps you should have a read of the Dart Group Annual Report.

[GKOC41]

While it is nice to see Jet2 paying their staff, they have got no money comming in, the Dart Group may still be busy as they are a logistics company, but they will not be able to prop up the company for ever. With no outside income, any airline will struggle.
Summer 2020 is as good as written off, anyway you cut it. Jet2 several years ago decided to focus on holidays, this will affect their future massively, in hindsight the Airbus expansion was not a good idea, they will be the first to go, Jet2 have massive overheads, they have their own handling, employ more people at the check In than their competitors, which is all money. This thread is about 3 large operators, sadly I think the two companies who rely on Holiday traffic will struggle to survive, if they do they will be much mich smaller.
There's always one doom and gloom merchant. Airbus expansion after a major rival went bust why not. No one saw this coming. The Staff will remember they got paid. Time to furlough now and batten down the hatches and be ready to start again. Good luck and be safe J2

[Normal Pilot]

Still nothing from J2 management regarding what their plans are from what I've heard.

[LBAflyer22]

Well, in 2019 the group Staff Salary costs were £412,400,000 or £35,360,000 per month (yes that is millions) all off their report and accounts.


And a good chunk of that is made up of seasonal staff - resort staff, ground operations and seasonal cabin crew. All of which will not be paid as they are probably reducing the levels of staffing required (not bringing back staff, not recruiting for the season etc). All this will drastically reduce the wage bill which i suspect spikes during the May-October period.

[Bam Thwok]

But the “Rt Hon” Gentleman is correct....... have a look of the company’s results for over the last 10+ years.
The “distribution” side (namely Fowler Welch..... TRUCKS) is successful, but generates a fraction of the profits compared to the airline and holiday company.
The “airline” hasn’t flown freight for some years now, and even then, was limited to Royal Mail contracts after the Channel Express A300’s went.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

As generous as JfP makes them sound, all J2 have done at the moment is to pay March salaries in full.

I merely answered the question, it was in no way meant as making them sound generous, merely fact. I suspect that it won’t be long before we hear about the battle plan and discover our financial fate, the benefit we have had is time as has been reported, Jet2 have a decent chunk of ££ in the bank, so they haven’t had to knee jerk like others have.

It would make perfect sense to make as much use of the Government’s furlough scheme to save a large proportion of the salary bill, I feel sure that will come to most.

[Flying Wild]

All Jet2 crew have been furloughed with immediate effect. Backdated to their last flight. No information on any uplift on the Govt scheme as yet.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Backdated to their last flight

Duty, not flight. Any duty counts.

[Flying Wild]

Duty, not flight. Any duty counts.

My bad, the letter must have taken pointers from Ryanair though. It provided a whole lot of nothing, whereas other airlines have been able to provide concrete information to their crews so they at least can plan for the next few months. Jet2? Just keep on waiting...Hardly working together as one team is it?

[Bam Thwok]

My bad, the letter must have taken pointers from Ryanair though. It provided a whole lot of nothing, whereas other airlines have been able to provide concrete information to their crews so they at least can plan for the next few months. Jet2? Just keep on waiting...Hardly working together as one team is it?

I look at it differently.....
PM and SH are applying their characteristic “modus operandi” in reacting to this crisis.
That is, a pragmatic, measured approach and NOT rushing in.
The letter, however vague, is only the first stage of this process but was required legally so as the company can now claim under the Governments “furlough” scheme.
It states that we will soon have further information of how that will effect us all “ individually”.

The meat on the bones will be made clear to us soon enough and I’m sure there will still be more questions to answer..... however, remember this could be a whole lot worse. Think of all those who were with FlyBe or with Thomas Cooke !

I, for one, was already planning for this. Realistically though, I’m planning for a lot longer than “the next few months”.

[Big X]

Whilst I don’t disagree that there is more to come from the company on this. I think the general feeling among the troops on the front line is that it has not been executed or communicated very well. The letter we received was vague at best and requires a little reading between the lines to find a glimmer of hope that there will be a financial uplift on top of the £2500 paid by the Job retention scheme.

We have had OSI’s telling us everything is ok, we are financially well placed. Philip allegedly wandering the crew room saying we can go for 400 days without any Ops. Followed by a period of silence and then a letter saying sorry your now being furloughed.

As I said I’m also expecting more from the company but it would have been nice to have been given more information yesterday. It smacks of the usual Jet2 HR cock up with information slowly being drip fed while staff are sat at home waiting and worrying.

[sloping_roof]

Big X I couldn't agree more!

We have had OSI’s telling us everything is ok, we are financially well placed. Philip allegedly wandering the crew room saying we can go for 400 days without any Ops. Followed by a period of silence and then a letter saying sorry your now being furloughed.

I think it has been handled very badly by an airline that is promoting the strapline "Jet2cares". It might all turn out alright, but at the moment PM doesn't appear to care very much about his staff who are all sat at home wondering how they are going to pay their mortgages.

[Flying Wild]

Whilst I don’t disagree that there is more to come from the company on this. I think the general feeling among the troops on the front line is that it has not been executed or communicated very well. The letter we received was vague at best and requires a little reading between the lines to find a glimmer of hope that there will be a financial uplift on top of the £2500 paid by the Job retention scheme.

We have had OSI’s telling us everything is ok, we are financially well placed. Philip allegedly wandering the crew room saying we can go for 400 days without any Ops. Followed by a period of silence and then a letter saying sorry your now being furloughed.

As I said I’m also expecting more from the company but it would have been nice to have been given more information yesterday. It smacks of the usual Jet2 HR cock up with information slowly being drip fed while staff are sat at home waiting and worrying.

Don’t get me started on the farce of social media informing staff of destination closures. That an email couldn’t be sent out at the same time to keep all informed shows a major failing in leadership and communication.

[Kirks gusset]

With BA crews accepting a 50% pay cut it kinda sets a benchmark..maybe Jet2 will make up the difference to take the crews to 50%...On the other hand, as BA is reducing the cabin and ops costs this may influence their generous offer.. tough times ahead for sure..

[Jcmcgoo]

I’m at one of the three named airlines, and I consider that each will react to the challenge in its own way. They are clearly three different entities, vastly differing cultures and their reaction to their latest threat will give clear indication to how they value their respective staff.

I have personally been quite impressed by the timely reaction from my own company. The company and the union working hand in hand. Between them they did manage to put many minds at ease a few weeks ago now. .My own company moved relatively quickly and we able to announce their plans going forward at quite an early juncture. The company worked closely with trade unions and it is my understanding both were on a similar page through debate to reach short term solutions to current challenge

This has changed and amended slightly since, due an award from a govt on the continent which provided no small means of security for the business, and then moves by our own U.K. govt. I can’t speak for everyone at my company, certainly no spokesperson, however from an individual viewpoint, their response for me was timely, considered, changeable to suit the ongoing situation and showed no small means of humility to employees. There was a fair display of leadership thrown in for good measure too. I’m sure you will, in any company, find those who wouldn’t be happy. But that’s just a fact of life.

Id suggest, with balance, the other two companies reacted differently. But this would no better nor worse, more simply be in line with their best efforts to secure the company going forward. It may give an indication to how employees are valued by the respective company and give some indication to the strength of their financial situation but more importantly going forward then I hope everyone is safe and some idea of Career security.

it is of course possible that things will look remarkably different once we come out of the other side of the current situation. But at the moment it’s good that everyone has an idea of the forward plan.

Good luck stay safe.

[banterbus]

Big X I couldn't agree more!

We have had OSI’s telling us everything is ok, we are financially well placed. Philip allegedly wandering the crew room saying we can go for 400 days without any Ops. Followed by a period of silence and then a letter saying sorry your now being furloughed.

I think it has been handled very badly by an airline that is promoting the strapline "Jet2cares". It might all turn out alright, but at the moment PM doesn't appear to care very much about his staff who are all sat at home wondering how they are going to pay their mortgages.

I couldn't disagree more. We are financially well placed, and at no point have they said that this situation is OK. Why wouldn't they furlough us?? They would be insane not to. I'm surprised you didn't see that one coming!

I think our company has handled this very well; I appreciate the fact that this can't be a simple thing to sort out. I would much rather any decisions made by our management are considered, and as effective as possible to ride this out with all jobs intact.

Then put yourself in their shoes, they must be playing out an incredible amount of possibilities right now. What happens if this continues into Autumn? What is the outcome at our popular destinations? What about training and currency for each scenario? etc etc. The contingencies for the company must be endless, and as we have been told, the priority is to be ready when this blows over, for the inevitable pent up demand that is going to be there for the taking.

It is clear to me that they are soon to come to an agreement that is not going to be just the standard furlough amount, and we should remember that there are a lot more pilots working for other airlines in different countries that are not going to be looked after like this - you should be grateful.

Maybe this is a wake up call to those that maybe over-stretch themselves financially. Go and speak to a financial advisor about how much accessible cash one should hold on to for these kind of eventualities.

Have faith in an owner and CEO who do actually care about the company!

[MrKipling]

Crewing Gimp: People want to go on holiday, and will remember what Jet2 did to get them back home over the last month.

Might want to go on holiday; but will they book holidays straight out of the gate as countries re open their borders? Can they afford holidays? There wont be many pilots going on holiday after this any time soon. I like your optimism though.

I also think Jet2 didn't come out of this looking too shiny either just reading the press and news sites. Jet2 and Easy both got a bit of a slating, rightly or wrongly.

Anyhow, best of luck to all, I feel you are going to need it.

[rotorwills]

Holidays will be the last thing that regular people will have any money to spend on this year. It's a complete economic disaster which is happening all around us. He can appear to be optimistic but let's try and remain balanced somewhat. Yes our industry appears to be being hit hard right now, but you have to realise that other than some service industries and the food provision trade the rest is severely damaged every day we have this lockdown. The world is being changed and here we have delusions of potential holiday makers rushing to take up space in one of our aircraft being proposed by some. Oh dear says a lot for some of our esteemed colleague posters.

It appears to me that this bug is about to devastate the world we know and the future, well I'm not sure our politicians are suited to extract us in the best manner. Condolences to all family's losing their loved ones at this terrible time.

[flocci_non_faccio]

People will still go on holiday. Brits always find the money to get away in the summer. It absolutely will be seen as a priority, as soon as restrictions are lifted. There's also going to be a huge impetus behind efforts to get tourism going again in Spain, Greece etc. Business travel and city break type flying will suffer, but I suspect package holiday companies will come out of this bruised and battered but not terminally wounded.

It appears to me that this bug is about to devastate the world we know and the future, well I'm not sure our politicians are suited to extract us in the best manner.

The reaction to this virus will prove in time to be the most catastrophic overreaction imaginable. There seems to be a notion floating around that life must be saved at all costs. The harsh reality is that life does have a monetary value attached to it. President Trump is the only politician so far who seems to have been brave enough to acknowledge that at some point the balance is going to tip and we're going to have to get on with our lives, even though doing so is going to cause deaths.

[Vokes55]

It certainly feels like that when all of your colleagues and a lot of friends are in the dire situation aviation has found itself in.

However I played an online poker tournament last night with old school friends and all 9 of them in completely different jobs are working as normal from home, full pay no sign of any economic loss (in fact saving money as they haven’t been spending on anything). There will be plenty people who come out of this fine and will want to travel as soon as they can.

Likewise. The majority of my closest friends will come out of this with more money than they would’ve done, with expenditure on gym memberships, weekly golf hacks, petrol, sky sports, beer, curry nights and every other recreational activity all going into savings/holiday fund accounts instead.

Judging by the doom and gloom on this forum, I’d say the majority of members either have no friends outside of the aviation industry or have spent the majority of their new found free time watching the news.

[SaulGoodman]

While I agree it is not all doom and gloom. We have to keep one thing in mind though. Package Holiday operators like TUI, Jet2 and others are by law accountable when their customers cannot complete their holidays. They either have to provide their clients vouchers or worse, reimbursements. They also have to work out how much of the damage they can share with their suppliers (airlines / acco / etc). The problem is if one big player falls this might trigger a chain reaction. Package operators like TUI, who have expensive assets like airplanes and hotels are hit the hardest I guess. Luckily TUI was in reasonable good shape.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Luckily TUI was in reasonable good shape.

Hope so, just booked a holiday with them for next year!

Tour operators continue to offer uber low deposits on holidays next year. I'm not holding my breath but hopefully people will take a small punt on a credit card and book a something for next year. Cash flow for these businesses is absolutely vital right now. Without it we expect some high profile casualties over the coming months.

[frozenpilot]

It is far too early to make assumptions about how the industry will shape up! We can all agree it will be a very bad year for Aviation, some weaker Airlines will fail and there will be mistrust between nations and some loss of consumer confidence. However, we are assuming science and technology don’t play their part! Some of the biggest brains on the planet are working tirelessly to find testing kits, trial medication and find technology solutions to allow life to prevail. These are the darkest days now, and it’s understandable to feel vulnerable..... But just like this nasty virus finds a way, humans will find a way. I recall 9/11 was the end of aviation, confidence gone, there will be no demand for air travel, it’s over!

I’m sure there will be many who say the issue is not the virus it’s the impending recession.... Fair comment. However, unlike 08-10 recession there will be a level playing field globally, there won’t be austerity like last time as the world is currently closed for business. Opening the cash taps will be the only way to jolt business and people back to life! I imagine we are only scratching the surface of the state aid that will be required this year. But, remember there are large numbers of people who won’t even notice a difference to daily life... Some even better off.

Also, consider the Government are well aware of the immense pressure on the Aviation sector at the moment. Like many other industries there will be benefits in the form of tax reliefs, APD etc. Plus Airports, foreign countries will be desperate to entice the British public through their gates and to their shores. There will be a period of reduced costs for Airlines. Now, the big one...... Oil.... tanked... through the floor! As this is the biggest single unit cost for most Airlines, we can likely see a period of reduced fuel prices, which could be immensely significant for many Airlines over the next few years in terms of recovery.

Now let’s look at UK Aviation in isolation. In the leisure market a significant player ( TCX ) went bust last year causing a natural contraction. Also, the demise of a Flybe has left a hole in domestic travel which the Government will be keen to see plugged. There is a possibility of a couple of high profile players becoming insolvent, and it is likely the long haul market will be suppressed for a few years to come. However, I recall in the wake of 9/11 a certain Irish Airline picking up large quantities of cheap Aircraft and embarking on a significant growth cycle... We can assume there will be cancelled orders and excess stock of Aircraft knocking around for the next few years.... This will be viewed as opportunity by the more bold/shrewd in the industry.

Ultimately no-one knows what will happen, Aviation is hurting and will hurt More over the next 6 month. The significant pain will be short term ( maybe 3 months more ). A key question I ask myself is the international relationships and trust. If country A is clear, but B has seen a flair up in cases... Will travel restrictions be imposed/remain It is conceivable trust in the market will disappear in the short term, but effective treatment and testing, followed by a vaccine with 12-18 months will see a sustained recovery. I guess we can largely write off this year in Aviation, but I would ask the doom merchants to provide data of demand, forward bookings for this winter or maybe next year. Until we see that sort of data, assumptions are based on people’s own fear and propaganda.

There is no doubt Aviation will bounce back, it may take time and it may change. However, unlike many other occasions there is motivation to get business working. I personally believe the package holiday will emerge even stronger. The benefits of ABTA/ATOL. Also, the concept of all inclusive... ‘ I pay my money and sit by a pool and be catered for...don’t need to leave my hotel and mix .’ It’s simple human nature. That, backed up by science and technology will facilitate the crazy Brits darkening the shores of Benidorm and Magaluf once again. We need to sit tight and ride a very nasty storm and hope our employers have the resources to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But more importantly focus on the bigger picture of thousands people loosing their life... and doing our bit!

[MrKipling]

Vokes55 Judging by the doom and gloom on this forum, I’d say the majority of members either have no friends outside of the aviation industry or have spent the majority of their new found free time watching the news.

What type of flying do you do? Because unless you are doing schedule round the UK with weekends off or are part time having any kind of social life is very difficult.

What are you doing with your free time? Oh maybe I shouldn't have asked ;)

[Max Angle]

It absolutely will be seen as a priority, as soon as restrictions are lifted.
I would agree, almost all my friends (and lots of them are not high earners) are saying things along the lines of "I hope my holiday in July, August, etc. is still on"

[NoelEvans]

...
Judging by the doom and gloom on this forum, I’d say the majority of members ... ... ... have spent the majority of their new found free time watching the news.
I have no "new found free time" BUT I have been 'self-isolating' from the news for about 3 weeks now. I do not need to watch repetitive doom mongers. I walk the dogs, work in the garden, read books, listen to music and go to work. And life is enjoyable. Not a single thing that you watch in the news is going to change your career over the next few weeks. But trying to find something 'between the lines' (or between the twaddle?) in the news can be depressing. So cheer yourself up and just don't watch it. This applies to every airline and every flying job at the moment.

[MINself]

I would ask the doom merchants to provide data of demand, forward bookings for this winter or maybe next year. Until we see that sort of data, assumptions are based on people’s own fear and propaganda....There is no doubt Aviation will bounce back, it may take time and it may change!

Some interesting points, please tell me us you have data that the aviation industry will be back to normal by the winter?
Most agree that the industry will bounce back, that in itself doesn’t make one a sage on the subject, as to when this happens, well, that’s for the debate, but past events have shown that as global disruptions to the world economy go, this hangover may take a few more years to get over than you infer.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Luckily TUI was in reasonable good shape.

More like good job TUI got a bail out from the German government.

[SaulGoodman]

would the GerGov give a “bail out” to an unhealthy company?
The Bail Out in fact was a loan that had to be approved by the banks. You think the banks would approve if they expected TUI not to be able to ever pay back?

[Normal Pilot]

I don't think governments always bailout healthy companies do they, they wouldn't be bailing it out if it was healthy. Healthy companies have cash reserves to cater for the unthinkable.

Quick look at TUI AG's books and they were forecasting a net profit of approximately £500 million, however they have a net debt of over 5 BILLION, so basically they have zero cash in in the bank, hence the reason for needing bailing out.

TUI AG is certainly not a company I would put any cash into.

[double-oscar]

At the moment it is not a bailout. It is a line of credit which may or may not be needed depending on how long the current situation lasts. It is a prudent move as there is still much uncertainty and it is better to have it in place now rather than trying to find support later should the world situation deteriorate further. As to putting money into the company, the current situation did not deter a multi-national investor buying 3.5% of the company.

[asuweb]

banterbus

I agree in part with both Big X and Banterbus. Using the GOV job retention scheme is indeed a very prudent and sensible business move. It simply makes sense - it's effectively free money and will increase the sustainability of the cash reserves the company has. However the communication has to date in my opinion been lacking. The letter we all received was half baked, and unintentionally (I have no doubt) caused a lot of anxiety and uncertainty to a lot of staff. Almost a week on and the fact is, there's not one of us employees who have been furloughed, who have any firm idea of what we may or may not be paid this month or in the months to come. Yes, we all assume there will be an uplift of some kind, but that is actually only an assumption - I'm 100% certain it's a correct assumption, as our Management do actually care, but still, it is an assumption. So yes, I agree the use of the furlough scheme is a good thing, but let's not pretend the communication around has been anything other than dismal.

[Boeing 7E7]

I don't think governments always bailout healthy companies do they, they wouldn't be bailing it out if it was healthy. Healthy companies have cash reserves to cater for the unthinkable.

Quick look at TUI AG's books and they were forecasting a net profit of approximately £500 million, however they have a net debt of over 5 BILLION, so basically they have zero cash in in the bank, hence the reason for needing bailing out.

TUI AG is certainly not a company I would put any cash into.

Because of the low interest environment that has been around since 2008 I think you’ll struggle to find any big multinational businesses that hasn’t taken advantage of debt and low interest rates. Which with the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England have just got even lower.

[Normal Pilot]

DTG, EZJ both have net cash. DTG probably has one of the strongest books amongst the airlines.

Any company with more debt that it can pay will eventually go bust, doesn't matter how cheap the debt is, you have to pay it back one day.

[frozenpilot]

Some interesting points, please tell me us you have data that the aviation industry will be back to normal by the winter?
Most agree that the industry will bounce back, that in itself doesn’t make one a sage on the subject, as to when this happens, well, that’s for the debate, but past events have shown that as global disruptions to the world economy go, this hangover may take a few more years to get over than you infer.


I’m certainly not suggesting this winter and next year it will be back to the good times! I am not inferring that. Outside the Flight deck I work with Aerodrome stake holders and regulators across the globe. It is widely expected it will take several years to recover ( if it’s even possible ) to 2019 traffic levels. However, so many people talk of Aviation being doomed, shrinking to nothing, and all sorts of other scary prospects. However, we must look at each event in isolation. P*ssed off Brits stuck at home for extended periods being part funded by the Government! Oil costing a fraction of what it did previously. Chancellors motivated to prop economies up, not normal in a recession.

I am for not one second suggesting how this may play out.... It is severe for the industry! But.... in the UK we have seen a number of Airlines fail prior to COVID, so there has been a natural contraction. I personally have lived through 9/11, SARS,MERS,swine flu and two significant gulf wars. I am saying that humans do and will find a way to trust the industry again, and they will!. Things will certainly change, it will be most prevalent in long haul markets and business travel. But I genuinely am mildly optimistic that we can and will prevail unlike other times of setback. I do believe a I unilateral global response is key and the limiting factor until we see a vaccine available.

[Boeing 7E7]

DTG, EZJ both have net cash. DTG probably has one of the strongest books amongst the airlines.

Any company with more debt that it can pay will eventually go bust, doesn't matter how cheap the debt is, you have to pay it back one day.

It’s easy to think that way. The reality is that debt does not ‘have to be paid back one day’. Rather, it needs to be serviced and debt rolled over. It’s easy to confuse what an individual might have to do, with loans and credit cards and the reality of how business works.

[Normal Pilot]

I’ve been investing for 30 years, I know how it works, but thanks for trying to educate me.

Find a company with excessively more debt than profit, short it and over the long run you will win.

Thomas Cook was one of them, so was FlyBe (it made me a significant amount shorting these) Aviation examples but there are hundreds of companies with excessive debt.

[MINself]

However, we must look at each event in isolation. P*ssed off Brits stuck at home for extended periods being part funded by the Government! Oil costing a fraction of what it did previously. Chancellors motivated to prop economies up, not normal in a recession..

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/hsbc-expects-european-airline-consolidation-amid-covid-19-crisis/137774.article

I found this article, copied from another thread very interesting, as a view from an analyst that seems fairly balanced, pointing that the aviation industry as we knew it in January will take a few years to return.

“...It also warns of weak traffic growth stretching deep into the upcoming decade. “It will take until 2022 or maybe 2023 to recover the level of traffic seen in 2019, since aviation volumes are directly related to economic activity and the world economy will shrink through this outbreak...”

[Flying Wild]

Jet2 have announced their pay intentions during furlough and for a fixed period of April to Sept 2020. Basic salary will be reduced by 30.00% for Captains, 24.81% for Senior First Officers, 23.14% for First Officers, and 18.56% for Second Officers. When the airline starts flying again, but during the period April to Sept, by 20.00% for Captains, 14.56% for Senior First Officers, 12.09% for First Officers and 8.54% for Second Officers.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

That’s got to be up there as the best package out there currently! Good on the Jet2 guys!

The % reduction is only lower In jet2 because the pay scales are less than other U.K. airlines in the first place so the addition to the government max furlough amount is roughly the same.

tui pilots are very happy with their covid deal and the collaborative approach from management has been warmly received. EasyJet on the other hand have pilots rejecting deals and management making grabs on terms and conditions.

looking at how pilots have been treated during the furlough certainly indicated Tui and jet2 are the employers of choice amongst these.

tui also receiving massive state support from the German government.

I work for Tui and fly with plenty of ex easyJet, Ryanair and jet2 pilots, I don’t know any that have voluntarily gone the other way.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I don’t know any that have voluntarily gone the other way.

I do. Not many I will grant you, but there are guys at Jet2 that left Jet2 to go to TUI and hated it and have returned.

[brn-2-fly]

Does anyone notice a trend here that anything even remotely positive mentioned about TUI is quickly knocked down by those at Jet2?

Why is that?

I notice that when Thomas Cook were still around it was a friendly competitive attitude, just banter between colleagues at the two employers.
Certainly only my opinion but it’s quite sad that it’s not just the odd comparison of T’s and C’s these days, the impression I get more often that not is it’s basically whatever Jet2 do is the best, and anyone else can happily keep quiet.

[there she blows]

Does anyone notice a trend here that anything even remotely positive mentioned about TUI is quickly knocked down by those at Jet2?

Why is that?

I notice that when Thomas Cook were still around it was a friendly competitive attitude, just banter between colleagues at the two employers.
Certainly only my opinion but it’s quite sad that it’s not just the odd comparison of T’s and C’s these days, the impression I get more often that not is it’s basically whatever Jet2 do is the best, and anyone else can happily keep quiet.
unfortunately the management culture is “ let’s give um a good kicking”.
whether it is other companies,airports, or more importantly employees that are deemed unworthy.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Does anyone notice a trend here that anything even remotely positive mentioned about TUI is quickly knocked down by those at Jet2?

Why is that?

I notice that when Thomas Cook were still around it was a friendly competitive attitude, just banter between colleagues at the two employers.
Certainly only my opinion but it’s quite sad that it’s not just the odd comparison of T’s and C’s these days, the impression I get more often that not is it’s basically whatever Jet2 do is the best, and anyone else can happily keep quiet.

I was one of the 600 who lost their job when Thomas Cook folded. Luckily, I was offered a new job with Jet2. I have found them to be excellent and I'm very happy with the overall package. I applied for dozens of jobs but my main focus was staying in the UK. I'm sure I would have been equally happy with TUI but I didn't get an interview.

Some people are rather childish about "their airline" being better or superior to others. What matters is that as an employee you are happy. Simple as that.

Lets hope we are all around wearing our existing uniforms 6 months from now.

[Boeing 7E7]

I do. Not many I will grant you, but there are guys at Jet2 that left Jet2 to go to TUI and hated it and have returned.

What a pointless statement. The work which Jet2 and Tui short haul do is broadly similar in the destinations they fly to. But Tui’s terms and conditions are significantly better. Hence the significant flow of (excellent) Jet2 pilots to Tui. The fact that a handful may have returned to Jet2, says nothing. It’s about as relevant as saying my grandad lived to be a 102 even though he smoked 50 cigarettes a day. Anecdotally it’s true, but hardly disproves the accepted facts.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

What a pointless statement

I would disagree, I was merely pointing out that the comment that inferred that nobody leaves TUI to go to Jet2 is incorrect.

TUI do have better T’s and C’s but their swapping round of 787 to 737 and sending people to Scandinavia and bullet trips followed by taxis across the country doesn’t suit all. Don’t get me wrong, Jet2 has warts, as do all airlines.

I would go with a similar view to Whitemonk - Jet2/Tui top of the list, EZY next, BA if it suits you personally and McDonalds before Valdermort Airlines.

[SeaBreeze1]

I do. Not many I will grant you, but there are guys at Jet2 that left Jet2 to go to TUI and hated it and have returned.

I find it extremely hard to believe they “hated” being at TUI. What’s to be hated about better Ts&Cs, better pay and opportunity for LH?

I agree with the other posters. Most of us have a “we’re all in this together” kinda attitude but the J2 brigade soon turn up to shout them down!

If you want to play that game I flew with a few ex J2 Captains in my FR days and they said they’d never go back - must be something wrong with them huh?

[Big Tudor]

If you want to play that game I flew with a few ex J2 Captains in my FR days and they said they’d never go back - must be something wrong with them huh?

And if you want to play THAT game, I was at Britannia when far better T&C’s than the current TUI offering were the norm and saw sizeable numbers leave for EasyJet, Virgin, BA and the Middle East, never to return. Must be something wrong with them huh?

[there she blows]

I find it extremely hard to believe they “hated” being at TUI. What’s to be hated about better Ts&Cs, better pay and opportunity for LH?

I agree with the other posters. Most of us have a “we’re all in this together” kinda attitude but the J2 brigade soon turn up to shout them down!

If you want to play that game I flew with a few ex J2 Captains in my FR days and they said they’d never go back - must be something wrong with them huh?
channel express fly flowers from Bournemouth to the islands, Britannia fly passengers around the globe,
its the mental aspect of a wanna be culture

[SeaBreeze1]

And if you want to play THAT game, I was at Britannia when far better T&C’s than the current TUI offering were the norm and saw sizeable numbers leave for EasyJet, Virgin, BA and the Middle East, never to return. Must be something wrong with them huh?

No airlines’ T&C’s are as good as they were 15+ years ago chap.

I’m merely trying to understand certain J2 guy’s insecurities which become apparent whenever anybody says something positive about TUI.

Case in point I guess.

[Big Tudor]

Or maybe it’s because J2 guys are soundly fed up with the derogatory comments directed to them and the company over the years, a number of which were from TUI pilots. Guess drinking all that kool- aid has provided a certain level of resilience.

And as for the “No airlines’ T&C’s are as good as they were 15+ years ago chap.” comment. There’s one where T&C’s are significantly better than they were 15 years ago ‘chap’.

[Boeing 7E7]

I would disagree, I was merely pointing out that the comment that inferred that nobody leaves TUI to go to Jet2 is incorrect.

TUI do have better T’s and C’s but their swapping round of 787 to 737 and sending people to Scandinavia and bullet trips followed by taxis across the country doesn’t suit all. Don’t get me wrong, Jet2 has warts, as do all airlines.

.

Yet even this quote is misleading. There are pilots who are dual fleeted. Many were surprised that this option was so heavily bid for and over subscribed during the last bid round. Some pilots like it! The Scandinavia flying suits some people very well and there is an element of taxing from one base to another. But it is hardly a significant part of most pilots experience in Tui. You are quite simply wrong and as others have pointed out, question your motives. I wish Jet2 pilots well and I hope their terms and conditions improve quickly to rival those that Tui presently enjoy. We are all in this together.

[Big Tudor]

Jet2 pilots well and I hope their terms and conditions improve quickly to rival those that Tui presently enjoy. We are all in this together.

Agreed, and no further comments from me. Good luck to everyone no matter what colour your fuselage.

[Capt Scribble]

FNF. The trick is to not spend your life in that hotel room, but get out and about.

[Hawker400]

That's just absolutely beautiful when you're young, dumb and full of :oh:​​​​​​

It's easy to get into that lifestyle but it doesn't appease to everyone.

[aileron]

Jet2 vs TUI vs shorthaul vs long haul vs could’a vs should’a vs would’a and then there’s the haters.
Whatever airline you work for (I’ve worked for more than half a dozen) there are always those who spend their time bitching about everyone but themselves. Thankfully there are some who are more self aware and appreciate what they have, spend some time reflecting and appreciate the simple things. It generally keeps getting better for those types, whoever they work for. Ts and Cs apart some people will never be happy. A group of people can convince themselves that the sky is green or that their airline isn’t going bust, it doesn’t alter the reality. I don’t get the jealousy, it’s a free market.
Im at TUI, flying long haul and happy. If the pay check goes into the bank on the 25th I’ll be even happier. It’s always been month to month in my head.......it’s all a bonus, nothing is a certainty. It’s going to end one day so enjoy the journey. I remember the good guys I’ve flown with in whatever airline under whatever Ts and Cs we had at the time. CV19, I Hope, will come to an end and we can all get back to flying, with a big smile on our face.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

And if you want to play THAT game, I was at Britannia when far better T&C’s than the current TUI offering were the norm and saw sizeable numbers leave for EasyJet, Virgin, BA and the Middle East, never to return. Must be something wrong with them huh?

I was in Britannia too.

Exactly how many people, do you know who left Britannia to go to

1 easyjet
2 virgin

Britannia had a better pension than the current Tui one but my work life balance is much better now than it ever was in Britannia days.

I know 1 who left to go to easyJet for a quicker command and a basing not offered by Britannia. There are undoubtedly many more coming the other way. My Britannia colleague went for a virgin interview and they asked him what he was doing there, he stayed in Britannia/Tui in the end.

Britannia and Tui have their faults but it’s simply not realistic say that sizeable numbers leave for easyJet and virgin.

in the same way that Tui doesn’t get pilots from BA because their terms and conditions are seen as better.

[pudoc]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

I’d disagree, plenty of people have left TUI and gone to Virgin in recent years. TUI’s highly average pension, lack of a proper salary scale (with top salaries a lot less), endless positioning on certain fleets and the threat of dual fleet saw many post-2012 joiners leave in the last couple of years. Mainly to BA, but they hire huge numbers of people compared to Virgin so that’s why you hear less of it.

Different story to those who joined pre 2012. Britannia is also a different story. But I’m talking about today.

TUI is still a good company, and better than J2 and Ryanair in my view. But I’d rather be at BA or VS. Some of the more senior TUI guys fail to understand this, but I think some of them forget what conditions new joiners are coming in on.

[Stone Cold II]

I’m with the orange lot, been there 16 years there must be a reason, oh yes I’m home with the family everyday, despite popular belief I can count on one hand how many 4 sector days I’ve done in the past 6 months and I’ve not know anyone leave here to go to TUi. I bid for what I want and generally get it. Yes we have a new bloke from Ryanair who used this crisis to try and force a Ryanair contract on us and the entire workforce including base management united and said no. I’m sure he will try again but after his efforts I cannot see how he can maintain his position.

Now the main point is it doesn’t matter what airline you work for. The best ones are the ones who pay you a competitive package, give you the base you want, be financially secure and give you the lifestyle that works best for you. Everyone is different. I have no interest in long haul, or flying back from Turkey touching down at my base at 6am, but that’s me and everyone is different.

Right now fingers crossed we all pull through together.

[Capt Scribble]

FNF. I suggest another career If you do not enjoy visiting places and the company of others. Aircrew are generally able to get on with colleagues professionally and socially even when few will ever make it to your xmas card list.

[bringbackthe80s]

I have the feeling you’re not nightstopping with anybody next week

[twogoodstarts]

Personally I love the balance of 2-3 nights away every week versus the rest of the week at home with the wife and kids.

I think I’d go mad if I was stuck at home every night. It’s always nice to have a change of scenery even if it’s just for 24-48 hrs, especially when it’s a miserable, cold, dark and wet winter in the U.K.
Plus being away makes me miss the family and look forward to seeing them again.

[Sick]

I am sooooo glad that I am not nightstopping with someone like you next week!! that seems an immature response and the feeling is probably mutual. If a colleague says he/she doesn't want to meet up, I totally understand that. While I liked meeting up with the crew on layovers, I knew it would make my rest and jetlag much worse, and usually the guys who always hit the town were useless zombies on the way home. Moreover, I hated the schlep of on blocks, wait ages for everyone to be ready, terminal or crew bus, shepherd crew towards a hotel shuttle that may or not be there, check in, find a room/bed that thousands of people have slept in, etc etc all times two, and all the while, so tired I want to puke. I ended up hating all that.

[deltahotel]

I think it’s quite a mature response to someone who spends so much effort telling us how little he likes his job.

I get your point about not always wanting to meet up and sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t depending on how my/our rest is going.

If you get to the hating it all stage then move on if that’s possible and if not don’t take it out on your colleagues.

All of which is slightly hijacking the thread for which I apologise.

[NoelEvans]

I have the feeling you’re not nightstopping with anybody next week
Oh yes, I am!

deltahotel is spot on about meeting up or not when away. But I would not enjoy working together with anyone who hates the job so that their attitude is
... this job is about making as much money as possible as quickly as possible so I don't have to do it for a moment longer than absolutely necessary ...

However, this is going off topic. Apologies. So take up again before where we interrupted.

[banterbus]

This thread is hilarious!

Just to confirm, different people like different things, appreciate the perks of different jobs to others, and have different priorities.... surely not!

[bluepilot]

Ok guys, this my dad is bigger than your dad, I have a bigger willy etc contest is pointless and ridiculous.

Yes I work for Jet2, very happy with the way we have been treated during these awful times. I am a happy bunny, mainly as I like the lifestyle and the ease of my job here. TUI has a lot of attractions for some people for different reasons, BA / Virgin the same.

What is becoming apparent in these unusual times are who the decent employers are. Who looks after their employees and which airlines are looking to take advantage of this situation to batter T @ Cs.

Lets all hope at the other side of this we all have a job that we are happy with and life can get back to some kind of normality.

[Meester proach]

Best job will be the one that exists in six months !

[zero/zero]

Amen to that! Most sensible post on this thread...

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Let's hope they all exist still in 6 months, 12 months, 24 months.......

[Black Pudding]

I’d like to first say I don’t work at any of the 3 airlines mentioned and I hope nobody take offence to me adding to this thread. I did work for Thomson for 3 years but was made redundant in the 2010 event. Last in, last out which I fully agree with. I totally enjoyed working there and would have never left. Great company back then, I don’t know about now but I still have friends there who are very happy. I also have friends working at Jet2 who are also happy. Ryanair, I don’t know anyone there.

With reference to the title of the thread, Jet2, Tui Or Ryanair, I would not work for Ryanair unless I had to, and chances are I wouldn’t bother unless it was financially beneficial to me and was at a base I could survive at. I think I would just not bother and go back to truck driving or working in the Far East on an Airbus which is what I’m current on at present.

So regarding Tui or Jet2

For me it would be all about lifestyle, income, job satisfaction, job security and basing.

I remember many years ago whilst working on the ramp before I qualified, I managed to organise a jumpseat observation flight with a Britannia base Captain. As they had an amazing colour scheme that gave the impression of a wonderful company to work for, I asked him what he thought of the new colour scheme that they were in the process of changing to, the light blue Thomson.co.uk colour scheme. His reply was he did not give a **** as long as his job, terms and conditions and lifestyle did not change. Initially I was shocked but many years later I now fully understand what he meant.

If I did work for BA, the prestige of saying I worked for BA means nothing to me. Who the hell wants to live anywhere near London and work out of LHR. If you’re from down that neck of the woods, then fair enough, but why would anyone want to move down there from their home area. For me only if it was the last option. Would I be ashamed to say I work for either Tui or Jet2, no I wouldn’t. I’d work for either but as we know, it depends on if you’re a FO or Captain who you would aim for. I would go from present Captain to FO at TUI if I had to, but if an opportunity of DEC at Jet2 was there, I would take that as a priority.

As for long haul. If you’re young and want to see the world, then happy for you, but when you get to the wrong side of 50, spending hours on end in a tin can to spend around 20 hours free time down route for a few beers and a steak is not glamorous at all. I’d rather be at home with family or in a pub with real friends. That’s my own personal preference. You want long haul ? crack on with it and very happy for you if you can get what you desire. Loads aimed for Virgin because they wanted long haul.

If you have a job that pays well, nice routes, you’re happy, job security and at a preferred base, then we have to be very grateful. Having to take a job in another part of the world can be stressful and demanding on a family, I know.

Regarding the above post reference we’re better than you ? I do actually know guys who have left each Tui for Jet2 and vice versa. It’s not all one way and good luck to them for their reasons.

Pay, happiness, lifestyle, base. Job security.

My thoughts are with all that have still not found a job since Monarch, TCX and Flybe’s demise, especially those with a totally waste of time rating and maybe outstanding loans ie MPLs.

Good luck to all crews in all UK companies during the coming months/year.

[Tommy Gavin]

Very accurate! One thing though, if you do LH you can live wherever you want. Which is a great advantage I believe. I live 3 hours away from base, would never be able to do that on short haul. LH can be a great lifestyle, on part time even better.

[Capt Scribble]

“As for long haul. If you’re young and want to see the world, then happy for you, but when you get to the wrong side of 50, spending hours on end in a tin can to spend around 20 hours free time down route for a few beers and a steak is not glamorous at all.”

BP, speak for yourself! I’m the wrong side of 60 and the chance to get away (and my job) suddenly disappeared last September. Life is not so much of a beach any more.

[Black Pudding]

Really sorry to hear that. I would have also done long haul had there been no other option. If an option, I’d rather not.

[Capt Scribble]

BP. I have no complaints and fortunate to have been an oldie when the edifice collapsed. Having got away with defying gravity for a brilliant 46 years, I was probably on borrowed time!

[NoelEvans]

A thing to remember in this job is that gravity always wins! Our job is to ensure a 'score draw'.

(Off topic a bit again, with current situation the nightstopping is not quite so enjoyable right now. But I suppose it beats not nightstopping. Read that however you wish.)

[SAB]

Now confirmed TUI to fire 8000 in their organisation. Any preliminary idea how this will affect their pilots? I know TUI already got rid of several pilots who had started with them in march/april.

[DooblerChina]

8000 is 12% of the Summer head count, more like 15% of the current Winter one. There is at the minute no plans to reduce pilot headcount however I personally am expecting it as we took on 100+ purely for this Summer which won’t be needed.

No body knows at the minute though as the airlines react to the needs of the holiday side of the business and they haven’t decided about future schedules yet. We may get away with no redundancies if Winter sun goes crazy... who knows

This by the way is just my opinion, I don’t have any insider knowledge.

[Jcmcgoo]

As the dust is now settling after the first stages of the impact to the wider aviation community, the three airlines are, as it stands still in business. All three are now flying again in a fashion.

I cannot speak for Ryanair or Jet2, although I have friends at both I’ve never worked for either.

TUI I know first hand, have worked with the trade union, held a ballot on taking a pay and work cut for a period of time. The deal was agreed by Management and by BALPA then put to the vote. The vote had a good turn out and a high vote to accept the deal that had been thrashed out.

Its not a perfect place to be in any industry right now, not least the Aviation sector, but to my own mind the process shown by TUI although there are people within the mix who have genuine reason not to be fully happy with all of it, then generally speaking, TUI has been adult it’s been reasonably well communicated, and the problem of how to go forward has shown a fair amount of “shared ownership”

On a personal level I am happy to have played a part in keeping everyone who wants to be in a job in one. At least for now. Plenty more water and plenty more bridges to flow under.

Many years ago a very fine mentor of mine taught me never judge a person or an organisation when everything is scooting along nicely. It’s dead easy to look good as a person as a dept, as a manager, as a management team, as a board of directors and as an organisation when everything’s going well.

Better to make an analysis when it’s backs to the wall time. That’s when the hidden character shows. Good, bad, indifferent or indeed downright evil.

My opinion, TUI though not perfect in many ways have, upto now given a fairly good account of themselves and I’m proud to be part of that. And on a financial front although, as expected watching the pennies due restricted money flowing into the business until, best guess until next summer seemingly have a reasonably sensible financial plan going forward.

[pudoc]

We can blow smoke up TUIs rear end all we like, the fact is 25% of their capacity is/was 3rd party which can be cut at a moments notice. If this wasn’t the case, don’t be fooled into thinking TUI would not have made redundancies.

I’m ex-TUI and look back fondly at my times there, but let’s not fool ourselves that they’ve avoided redundancies to be nice. Let’s not forget Project Transformation just a few years ago. It’s just happened to work out well there for both parties.

Airline management are the same everywhere, greedy and in it for themselves.

[IRRenewal]

It's time we get over the idea that some companies are 'nicer' than others. The single most valuable asset to any company is not as we would like to believe its people, but is in fact the company itself. When things go pear-shaped on a global scale like they are now any company will do whatever it needs to do to survive. Being nice isn't going to pay the bills.

Another idea we need to get over is that airline management are somehow worse than management in any other line of business. They're not. But they are there to serve the interests of the business, which is not necessarily the same as looking after the interests of the people working for the business.

Ps: I do not work in management (aviation or otherwise) and have no intension or desire to do so.

[twogoodstarts]

Even without the third party flights going ahead, we’re still going to be overcrewed at TUI for quite some time.

Having suffered no pilot redundancies at TUI has little to do with management being nice or not being nice.
It is down to a strong representation by its pilot Union and it’s current company council.
I’m sure that when negotiations started, our management would have almost certainly had Pilot redundancies up their sleeves, along with a whole host of other losses of T&C’s.

Thankfully the relationship between Balpa and our Pilot management is the best it's been in a while, therefore the Union was able to agree a package of measures which looked at a more longer term picture for the company, including a ‘12 month paid at 80% of basic’ voluntary severance scheme for 47 of the most senior pilots on the highest (20+) year pay scales, which along with other measures has resulted in zero redundancies.

The negotiations have focused the attention of management to the longer term picture of in-house re-growth, without the need to rely on expensive third party operations.

[Jcmcgoo]

An accurate account as id see the recent developments/plans for the future at TUI

Just for clarity, as there seems to be some misunderstanding certainly with posters that followed my own just above - Id personally not made any reference to "niceness" - guilty however of feeling pleased Id been allowed the opportunity to play a small part in the decision made regarding peers careers. By virtue of the set up that is well described in "twogoodstarts" post above.

For sure all businesses are being forced to make some hard decisions presently, we all get that they will protect the business at all costs, which is absolutely right and just. However its equally clear that each business can accomplish this in different ways. that's a function of their current financial situation/future plan/resilience and a very large slice of company and departmental culture whether it has any inclusive or team ethos to making those big decisions.

Recruitment will return one day and hopefully when we do eventually return to some semblance of a notion of normality, then the cream of the crop use information freely available here and now about how companies react under pressure in relation to employees to decide where they prioritise their target airline of choice - different strokes for different folks and all that...

So theres a reasonably balanced warts and all account so far at TUI as it stands twixt the first phases of COVID and prior the winter increase in the virus.

[guy_incognito]

Second hand info so can’t confirm its veracity, but it seems that Jet2 management have threatened the pilots there with further redundancies if they don’t immediately sign up to huge, non time limited pay cuts.

£70k for a 737/757/A321 captain: the new normal. Terms and conditions will never recover from this.

[OhNoCB]

Just to add a bit more perspective to the above. Jet2 communicated a need for redundancies and a pay cut from August - December some time ago now. This has been stalled and not yet agreed by BALPA, much to the displeasure of many who feel that whilst the redundancies are awful, it is an industry problem and not a snipe for the sake of it by Jet2 management. The company has since communicated that as the proposed period of pay reduction has now begun without any agreement, further delay could damage the effect of this cost saving measure and could have repercussions.

Whilst I can absolutely not speak for everyone, I know a fair proportion of my local colleagues share the same view as me, in that the company deserve a little bit of faith in these challenging times and that BALPA are actually jeopardising more jobs by stalling and asking for cast iron guarantees which I am not sure are reasonable given the current global situation.

[Oceanic815]

As stated above, Jet2 have taken the decision to cut Pilot pay to 70% until the end of the year. At the moment they are massively over crewed and will be even more so in the winter. The company have worked out that this, coupled with the 102 redundancies, is what they need to do in order to survive with a reasonable cash balance until next summer. In the big scheme of things, keeping crews on 70% pay whilst most are at home I think is pretty generous. It’s unfortunate for the 102, but I understand most joined this winter in anticipation of a bumper summer season. No doubt they will be welcomed back when things pick up. Jet2 Ts and Cs have improved immeasurably over the last few years and I have no doubt that pay will return to previous levels when the finances allow. Let the Company manage the situation. Unfortunately BALPA demanding a fixed date when pay will return to normal is not very helpful. There are too many variables including potential further lockdowns or quarantine arrangements. BALPA demanding things in the current climate may well result in further job losses; oh the irony!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Second hand info so can’t confirm its veracity, but it seems that Jet2 management have threatened the pilots there with further redundancies if they don’t immediately sign up to huge, non time limited pay cuts.

I haven’t had any such “Threat”. I have read a communication distributed by BALPA that indicates that delays to the current deal might result in increased costs and therefore further job losses. Whilst the cuts are disappointing, and the redundancies are very sad for those being let go, I fail to see how any airline could offer to give a date when pay will go back to previous levels.

[macdo]

Oceanic815

Just for balance and in no way a poke at you. But I think you would be less sanguine if you were currently in line to be canned, especially since most of the 102 are looking at their 2nd redundancy within a year. More to the point,BALPA is there working in your best interests and will be only too aware of the risks involved in asking for too much. Look at how a sensible industrial negotiation has mitigated the threat (so far) at TUI and how poorly unrepresented pilots have fared at Emirates. I'm not saying that J2 management are saints or monsters, but you never needed good representation more than you need it now.

[Oceanic815]

Macdo
No offence taken and I accept everyone will have their own view on BALPA. I really do feel for the 102, especially those facing a double redundancy. But as I understand it nearly half the pilots in the company are surplus to requirements this summer, and that was before the Spanish situation. Most of the 102 have not completed line training so unfortunately they were the easiest option. With regard to BALPA knowing the risks of overplaying their hand, the correspondence from them that I have seen (as a non member) seems very aggressive. Jet2 management have never been a fan of any union and BALPA demanding things in the current climate is really not going to help that. If we were back to a full flying schedule then that would be different. For another view, imagine how I would feel if I was made redundant, as a result of increased company costs due to the actions of a union I’m not even a member of!

The company management are the only ones who know the full implication of various actions on the balance sheet. My personal view is to let them get on with it without added distractions, and hopefully we can welcome back some of the 102 next year.

[MANTHR]

Whilst I have the utmost sympathy with Jet2 management having to make savings for the overall good of the business, I do find it frustrating that it appears that they have not entertained any sort of mitigation. Sensible suggestions from BALPA including sabbaticals, unpaid leave, part time, sharing the burden by a further pay cuts (not just of the 102 but of the entire workforce) appear to have been totally ignored. Almost a “we know better attitude”. I’m aware that it could be said the same of BALPA, insisting they know better too, however BALPA surely will have more expertise by their very nature. Management certainly don’t need to take the advice or assistance offered but to throw it aside without explanation is neither helpful nor professional. These are unprecedented times and I would have thought the assistance of a professional organisation like BALPA would have been of huge benefit.

I agree with many above that to ‘poke the bear‘ at this stage is risky so I would also leave well alone however once this is all over I really do hope that the BALPA team and the management can reflect on how things could have been done much much better for the benefit of everyone....

The 102 pilots, among many others are now being thrown out to a saturated market and I am truly saddened that nothing could have been done to save even a few of them. IMHO the only hope is that when things do improve Jet2 will recruit heavily once again and they’ll be asking those they let go back in first...

[Whitemonk Returns]

For a bit of balance to the company cheerleading that has been posted above and is prevalent in all of the company whatsapp groups let me share some cold reality to the Jet2 'deal'....

1. Its not a deal, a deal requires negotiation, of which there was none on the companies part as they refused to engage
2. People found out through a company email to a Balpa rep, a union of which most are not a member, why some of colleagues got paid less last month than others, a fact the company promised wouldn't be the case
3. The 'deal' has a higher pay cut with no end in sight than any of the actual deals agreed at TUI, RYR and BA, not to mention the loss of all bonuses for the previous year in which we made a healthy profit.
4. The 'deal' has a way higher percentage of redundancies of the pilot workforce than BA, TUI and RYR

The pilot bodies response: Why are BALPA trying to negotiate improvements on this awesome deal?!

​Caveat to include Balpa don't help themselves with some of the idiotic Q & A they published recently.
​​​​​

[Too Few Stripes]

Whitemonk has nailed it. The naivety among many of the pilots at Jet2 has amazed me.

[Flying Wild]

Naivety, combined with ambivalence and a sprinkling of fear of rocking the boat.

There are many who aren't very happy with where things are going. I for one am disappointed that the company has basically put their fingers in their ears during their meetings with Balpa and called it "consultation". Regardless of the company finances, it's just plain wrong.

But, what can the pilot workforce do? Go on strike? We have mortgages to pay, families to feed. With the economy and job market as it is, what alternative do we have than to put up and shut up for the time being?

[Banana Joe]

So no more #Jet2cares banners on social media? :E

[macdo]

Flying Wild

As always and as you state, somewhere near the middle lies the truth.

[MANTHR]

Banana Joe

🤣 I roll my eyes every time I see one!

[Flying Wild]

Oh, they care alright. About the bottom line...

[Boeing 7E7]

I guess you get what you pay for. If Jet2 was as unionised as say TUI, things might have been different. But for the sake of £50 a month you’ll never know.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

or unionised like Thomas Cook was, and we all know how that went.

[guy_incognito]

I’m not an expert in corporate finance, but I’m pretty sure that the rampant uncontrolled debt and catastrophic mismanagement at Thomas Cook was slightly more of a factor in its insolvency than the pilots being unionised.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Interesting article on the Flight Global website. Dart reckon they have enough cash to stay afloat until next August even if the fleet remains grounded. Whatever way you look at it, Dart must have some pretty robust finance plans.

[macdo]

or unionised like Thomas Cook was, and we all know how that went.
A (even for pprune) particularly ill-informed comment. Plenty of online documented evidence to refute.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

"guy_incognito" What makes you say unionisation was a factor in the insolvency of TC?.

Base closures, crew replaced by Eastern European ACMI contractors, etc this is the effect of unions..

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Strange you should say that. TUI had planned in a few ACMI Smartlynx aircraft for this summer.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

Were they using ACMIs for expansion or cost reduction?

[PilotLZ]

It's cheaper to wet-lease a couple of aircraft seasonally than to keep them year-round with all the associated personnel, given that just a fraction of the capacity is needed outside the peak summer season.

[macdo]

Satoshi Nakamoto

With regard to TCX's use of ACMI (and it is reasonable to assume TUI's motivation would be the same) the objective was to enable expansion in the most cost effective way and at the same time drive down the fixed cost of running an airline all year. This often caused tension between the management and the pilot workforce (not cabin crew, as company crew were used to ensure on board product standardization) due to the feeling, sometimes backed up by stated intention, that the direction of travel was towards more ACMI and less TCX fleet. In the end, Union negotiation enabled a compromise to be reached so that both parties could be reasonably satisfied that UK jobs were secure and that the company could be cost effective. There were casualty's along the way. A couple of small bases were dis-established for year round pilots jobs, but in the years up to TCX's failure in-house pilot recruitment was maintained and increased in spite of an increase in ACMI use during the summer. I have absolutely no doubt that ACMI usage in TCX would have been far greater if the Union had not been there to push back against it. None of this had much bearing on the eventual Group business failing. as that was due to the greed and rank amateurishness of the Board of Directors, as pointed out when they were publicly humiliated by Rachael Reeve MP, during the House of Commons Business Select Committee investigation into the failure. TUI seem to be run by a lot of far smarter people than TCG was, the question is, are they smart enough to out-run Covid19.?

[Vokes55]

TUI’s planned use of ACMI was to cover the Max grounding. Nothing more, nothing less.

The only regular 3rd party flying TUI have is Sunwing and Norwegian, amounting to about eight lines of flying per Summer - certainly not 25%.

Sunwing is reciprocal with TUI aircraft and crew heading West during the Winter.

During normal times, of course.

[pudoc]

easyJet, BA and Virgin all did flying for TUI every year prior to this summer. TUI had around 20 aircraft planned for 3rd party this summer and only 6 MAXs (excluding delayed deliveries) that are grounded. So the remaining 14 aircraft works out at roughly 25%.

Thats my understanding anyway. I guess my main point was: TUI guys must be pleased that 3rd party can be scrapped rather than their own jobs.

[Vokes55]

For the tour operator, yes. Why stop there, you can book TUI holidays to the Indian Ocean with flights on almost every Middle Eastern airline too. This thread is about the airline.

They were due to have significantly more than 6 Max’s in service by this summer, and were crewed accordingly, so no jobs have been saved due to ACMI being scrapped.

The only planned ACMI aside from Norwegian or Sunwing is due to the Max grounding.

[flamingmoe]

Are applications open at RYR yet? Obviously no hiring for a while, just wondering if they plan to create a hold file for when things pick up again, and if there’s many stood down pilots waiting for a return date.

[flamingmoe]

As expected, Thankyou sir/maam.