Really good article on the 737 Max

[Dick Smith]

This is a long and detailed article (https://apple.news/AHhKSVOlLS0GHBTAPJI9UXA) but well worth the read. It discusses the areas of automation and whether we have gone too far, or not enough. It also mentions that wonderful term “airmanship”.

What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?
Malfunctions caused two deadly crashes. But an industry that puts unprepared pilots in the cockpit is just as guilty.

Read in The New York Times: https://apple.news/AHhKSVOlLS0GHBTAPJI9UXA

[V-Jet]

That was well worth reading. Thanks.

[mrdeux]

It’s interesting, but I don’t know that I’d call it ‘really good’. It has been the subject of discussion in ‘Rumour and News’, and largely reads like a Boeing PR blurb.

[Slezy9]

largely reads like a Boeing PR blurb.

I'm note sure Boeing PR would put this out...

On the corporate level, the company is the worst sort of player — a corrosive agent that spreads money around Washington, pushes exotic weapons on Congress, toys with nuclear annihilation, sells all sorts of lesser instruments of death to oppressive regimes around the world and dangerously distorts American society in the ways that President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned against in his prescient 1961 farewell address.

[PoppaJo]

There is a disturbing amount of lack of information from multiple companies in regards to new technology.

Airbus NEO is another. Noticeable control differences on rotate or flare that result in different techniques being applied. There are pilots out there who were not told of this prior to EIS. The issue they raised was that there is potential to get messy if handled like a ceo, and some did. Jetstar Pilots will see what I’m talking about when it arrives next year. If your not briefed on this ask the question. If your company knows nothing about it then you shouldn’t be flying it. Pilots and companies finding out new type handling characteristics as it happens in the air only leads to distractions. The first 50 feet isn’t the time to be second guessing yourself on handling characteristics.

You need to be two steps ahead of new technology it seems, not one.

[Gate_15L]

There is a disturbing amount of lack of information from multiple companies in regards to new technology.

Airbus NEO is another. Noticeable control differences on rotate or flare that result in different techniques being applied. There are pilots out there who were not told of this prior to EIS. The issue they raised was that there is potential to get messy if handled like a ceo, and some did. Jetstar Pilots will see what I’m talking about when it arrives next year. If your not briefed on this ask the question. If your company knows nothing about it then you shouldn’t be flying it. Pilots and companies finding out new type handling characteristics as it happens in the air only leads to distractions. The first 50 feet isn’t the time to be second guessing yourself on handling characteristics.

You need to be two steps ahead of new technology it seems, not one.


Thats alright.. apparently according to this bastion of truth and knowledge of an article, Airbus are less challenging to fly...

The twist is that Kirana could have built his airline on the Airbus 320, an airplane that is less challenging to fly, but instead chose the equivalent Boeing 737, which counts on pilots as the last resort if something mechanical or otherwise goes wrong.

I stopped reading it from then on. what a load of tripe. Show me a A320 or any modern airliner where the pilot isn't "the last resort if something mechanical or otherwise goes wrong"..? The A320 has it's own set of vices and personalities that must be mastered and respected. They're still there. They're just different.

The heart of the problem is partially automation. We have stuff buried so deep in the lines of code, that a programmer makes an error, sometimes years in advance which given the right set of circumstances, could manifest itself into a catastrophic loss. The error then often only presents itself to the unsuspecting flight crew who now have only a limited amount of time, under trying circumstances to decipher the problem and take corrective action. You can't program for every possible outcome or circumstance in aviation, hence the art of the science of flying... And now they want to take out that last line of defence, the pilot, by going to single pilot and remotely operated aircraft.

[George Glass]

Closest I’ve read yet to an accurate analysis of what happened.

[lederhosen]

It is indeed a good article. As an experienced 737 captain I would however pick up on a couple of things he presents as fact, which I would see a little differently. For example I have never used the trim cutout switches outside the simulator. In fact I cannot remember anyone else having to either. Also manual thrust is not standard operating procedure on takeoff. You get the occasional machine where autothrust is inoperative and it is no big deal. But generally deselecting it halfway through the initial climb needs a bit of thought and is far from an automatic highly trained response. Otherwise I agree with his general direction.

[hoss]

Good article, shame it took a while.

Fly the Aircraft first.🙂

[QuarterInchSocket]

Good read, thanks Dick. Quote also hits the nail on the head

[Okihara]

Excellent read, thanks for sharing. Just an absurd reality of gross negligence laid bare. I wonder who would want to fly on an Indonesian airline after reading this.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Dick,
As usual you are pursuing your own agenda. I wonder what you could do to help Glen Buckley?
If you actually worked with the team, and supported causes that the GA industry is currently fighting against CASA, you might achieve something constructive.

Instead here you are, still screaming into the wind alone like you did on Airspace reform in the Class E debate 15-20 years ago.

Get with the team.

[spektrum]

Why isn't Tricky Dicky working with Glen?

[27/09]

Dick,
As usual you are pursuing your own agenda. I wonder what you could do to help Glen Buckley?
If you actually worked with the team, and supported causes that the GA industry is currently fighting against CASA, you might achieve something constructive.

Instead here you are, still screaming into the wind alone like you did on Airspace reform in the Class E debate 15-20 years ago.

Get with the team.

and
Why isn't Tricky Dicky working with Glen?

Come Guys, this thread has nothing what so ever to do with GA in Australia nor Glen Buckley. Take your agenda to another thread.

[Professional Amateur]

An article that largely shows the fault of children of the magenta line.... But accurately balmes the parents. A long but worthwhile read.

I often read articles about crashes hoping to learn something or to simply consider 'what would I have done if I were in their shoes'.... Well the same thing probably.... If your ill equiped by the system to fly the aircraft then a similar result is likely. No... Inevitable.

Cant really balme the pilots despite the fact that they were at the control column.

[nefarious1]

After watching another child of the magenta balls up a visual STAR while trying to fly the FMS, I’ve gone into the office to ask a C&T manager if they do any manual hand flown sectors during line training....”No, they might stuff up”. Well hey, they might also learn something and build skills and confidence. I frustratingly walked out thinking of managers as ostriches with their heads in the sand, and ass holes in the sunshine.

[Professional Amateur]

After watching another child of the magenta balls up a visual STAR while trying to fly the FMS, I’ve gone into the office to ask a C&T manager if they do any manual hand flown sectors during line training....”No, they might stuff up”. Well hey, they might also learn something and build skills and confidence. I frustratingly walked out thinking of managers as ostriches with their heads in the sand, and ass holes in the sunshine.


My point exactly. They know, but it costs money and by the time something happens they would have likely moved on.

Digging deeper..... The regulators allow it to happen.... So who is to blame.

[mates rates]

After reading this it just confirms the auto throttle will kill you in these automated aircraft.Neither crew in these accidents thought to reduce or close the throttles.I would suggest all sim sessions should have manual flying with no auto throttle usage to check the coordination skills and build confidence to be able to operate without it.

[lucille]

After watching another child of the magenta balls up a visual STAR while trying to fly the FMS, I’ve gone into the office to ask a C&T manager if they do any manual hand flown sectors during line training....”No, they might stuff up”. Well hey, they might also learn something and build skills and confidence. I frustratingly walked out thinking of managers as ostriches with their heads in the sand, and ass holes in the sunshine.

Whether we old fogies like it or not, the magenta line is destined to become queen. Not long before any sort of hand flying between the "gear up"call and 50 AGL will be banned by SOPs. All in preparation for the day ATC's computers assume direct control of the aircraft's track and speed. You already receive clearances and requests via CPDLC it's only one small step further to communicate directly with the automation. The biggest weak link in the chain so far is the lack of 100% reliable communications.
And as far as physically handling emergencies?.. You can always teach a computer with enough sensors to do it better than a human.

Incidents like these plaguing the 737 Max are just part of the learning curve for the manufacturer's (and their customers) on their route to making the pilot as superfluous as possible. Its just that Boeing never envisioned the corruption, and lip service to training and standards by some of the airlines out there coupled with the ineptitude of some of their crew. They can no longer ignore what they've always pretended didn't exist and its been an expensive lesson for Boeing. You can be sure Airbus's eyes are like soup bowls too.

Net result is the ever increasing automation of airliners - and it will be sold to us because its safer, cheaper, more efficient.. blah.. blah..blah.

[JustinHeywood]

...and largely reads like a Boeing PR blurb.

Oh come on. Did you read the entire article?

For a mere $60k, Lion’s pilot academy guarantees you a job as an airline pilot, with a 95% success rate. What could go wrong?

A regulatory system and culture that allows complex and imperfect aircraft to be flown by inadequately trained pilots - THAT is the real culprit from my reading of the article.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Dick,
As usual you are pursuing your own agenda. I wonder what you could do to help Glen Buckley?
If you actually worked with the team, and supported causes that the GA industry is currently fighting against CASA, you might achieve something constructive.

Instead here you are, still screaming into the wind alone like you did on Airspace reform in the Class E debate 15-20 years ago.

Get with the team.

I think you might need counselling for your deep-seated Dick-issues.

[Berealgetreal]

Look at your manuals and you see the Autopilot being required to be used more and more.

Then you go to the simulator and people are scratching their heads why people don’t have the skills. Bizarre system/scenario.

All of this for airspace management and “safety” figures. The tail has been wagging the dog for a long time.

[Okihara]

I just spoke to a trainee from India today who told me that some schools over there have their students solo with an instructor in the right seat. Not sure how this is supposed to make me feel. Using an induction argument, you could still argue that if the instructor is trained to the same standard, this is pretty much a solo anyway.

[nefarious1]

The point is not about the future of automation, but the fact that when the automation starts fighting against you, and no matter how advanced it is it will, then you need to be able to disengage and stabilise the situation before scratching your head and working it out. Nobody likes or accepts the computers killing us, they are not the top of the food chain.

[Outtahere]

Its just that Boeing never envisioned the corruption, and lip service to training and standards by some of the airlines out there coupled with the ineptitude of some of their crew

Both manufacturers have known for quite some time, its just convenient to to turn a blind eye. Its also easier to turn away when it goes on in third world countries on the other side of the globe.

Certain aircraft exceedances are reported directly airframe to manufacturer.

[MickG0105]

After reading this it just confirms the auto throttle will kill you in these automated aircraft.Neither crew in these accidents thought to reduce or close the throttles.

I don't think that is necessarily correct with regards to the Lion Air crew. After getting to 5,000 feet there are something like 10 changes to N1 in about 7 minutes. That's not likely to have all been the AT is it?