RFDS feeling effects of global pilot shortage

[aussiepilot]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-17/rfds-feeling-effects-of-pilot-shortage-launches-program/11494640

RFDS requires minimum 4000hrs TT, including 2000hrs as PIC.

How do their T&C (pay, roster, lifestyle) compare to that of the airlines?

[machtuk]

Thttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-17/rfds-feeling-effects-of-pilot-shortage-launches-program/11494640

RFDS requires minimum 4000hrs TT, including 2000hrs as PIC.

How do their T&C (pay, roster, lifestyle) compare to that of the airlines?


The 'Rufduss' was the best job once upon a time and very hard to get in to, you had to know someone behind the scenes to get a gig. Those days are long gone!

I might have to come out of retirement, to fly the jet of course, I've got enuf Turbo prop time to sink a ship:)

[Rated De]

No such thing as a pilot shortage...Just ask Airline IR the world over..

[Duck Pilot]

T&Cs aren’t to bad, nor is the lifestyle particularly if you want to live in a regional area. Equipment is second to none and I’m pretty sure all of the people are great. Pretty much the same can be said for Careflight I believe.

It really depends on what you want to do. Aeromed certainly cannot be compared to jet RPT ops, both operationally and in terms of T&Cs.

[sms777]

Damn.....I may have to come out of hibernation too. I think I will qualify...... except my age. Whitout googgleing what is their age limit?.

[machtuk]

Damn.....I may have to come out of hibernation too. I think I will qualify...... except my age. Whitout googgleing what is their age limit?.

I'm older than you 777 and they need me, you should be a walk up start..lolol

[industry insider]

Pretty much the same can be said for Careflight I believe.

Er probably not.

[deja vu]

Jeez these people are unreal....." an obligation to give back to the industry".... you must be joking. Where do they find these idiots? By the time someone has the required hours they have spent a fortune and years getting licences and ratings and most likely living in sh@%holes on subsistence rates, and they need to "give back". I'll bet the CEO of the RFDS is on 3 times a pilots salary and is tucked up in bed by 10pm

[Duck Pilot]

Ok, I was totally wrong. Care to elaborate further? Opposed to making one liner statements? It’s a public forum my friend....

[neville_nobody]

Maybe they should focus on why people keep resigning from the RFDS. I'd have a small wager that money isn't one of the top reasons.

[machtuk]

Maybe they should focus on why people keep resigning from the RFDS. I'd have a small wager that money isn't one of the top reasons.


there are a few reasons why they lose drivers and can't get drivers. The numbers just aren't there anymore compared to say 10-20 years ago so the drivers with the req Hrs are not stopping off at their door. IT has steered plenty of people towards a career that doesn't involve shift work and repetitive training and checking. The Airlines have recruited aggressively over the last 10 years or so drying up the pool. GA is all but dead meaning the traditional ladder is very weak. let's face it money is the biggest incentive for most, the Ruffdus simply can't compete with the big shiny jets job, they are exiting in numbers the Ruffdus has never seen before!
Sign of the times, the Australian flying landscape has/is changing!

[spektrum]

How long is it to a Brisbane base with them?

[industry insider]

Ok, I was totally wrong. Care to elaborate further? Opposed to making one liner statements? It’s a public forum my friend....

Allegedly: The people are not great, infighting. Factually: management very poor, major contractual vulnerability in 2020.

[neville_nobody]

let's face it money is the biggest incentive for most, the Ruffdus simply can't compete with the big shiny jets job, they are exiting in numbers the Ruffdus has never seen before! Sign of the times, the Australian flying landscape has/is changing!

So quality of life and commercialisation of the RFDS aren't an issue then?

[deja vu]

there are a few reasons why they lose drivers and can't get drivers. The numbers just aren't there anymore compared to say 10-20 years ago so the drivers with the req Hrs are not stopping off at their door. IT has steered plenty of people towards a career that doesn't involve shift work and repetitive training and checking. The Airlines have recruited aggressively over the last 10 years or so drying up the pool. GA is all but dead meaning the traditional ladder is very weak. let's face it money is the biggest incentive for most, the Ruffdus simply can't compete with the big shiny jets job, they are exiting in numbers the Ruffdus has never seen before!
Sign of the times, the Australian flying landscape has/is changing!

Well maybe you could come out of retirement along with sms777 and work for the RFDS, help them out, along with a few others who have had a career already and would just do it for fun. Yeah, the aircraft look nice enough but believe me after few years the novelty wears off, especially when the guy who puts the fuel in the wings earns more as a base pay not to mention his overtime. The paramedics in the ambulance probably 150% the pilots salary. So it's not so much the lure of the shiny jet, its about providing for a family and maybe for a comfortable retirement in the future, can't blame anyone for that.

For 50 years I have been hearing about aviation operators not being able to afford to pay a reasonable/liveable wage. Like everyone else I am a great supporter of the RFDS but they are just going to have to offer what it takes to attract and keep the right pilots for their services. GA might have changed but offer an attractive package and there would be any number of applicants. I would be interested in the RFDS costings and see who is earning what!

[compressor stall]

... but they are just going to have to offer what it takes to attract and keep the right pilots for their services.Like they do for docs and flight nurses. It’s supply and demand and this is a clever media spin 101.

[snoop doggy dog]

A couple of decades ago, there was in-fighting, poor and micro management, Pilot's expected to be charitable with their time, whilst managers paid at least twice as much as pilot's, for half the work and CEO's a lot more. Plus, as mentioned, in bed by 10pm and weekends off. :sad:
Doctors nurses, refuellers and just everyone else paid more. :sad:
I guess it's more important for the RFDS, and many other aviation companies, to have the axillary staff, as Pilots and Engineers are not really important for a flying operation*?! :mad:
It's hard to pay Pilots and Engineers more, as it's more important for the ones higher up to hit a bonus, than pay properly :ugh:
RFDS have a shortage of Pilot's, whom will accept sh!t conditions is my bet ;)
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[spektrum]

Is it really that bad in relative terms? The pay seems to be inline with most regional captain pay if not better and you're not staring down the barrel of 5 sectors and a min rest over nights week in week out. And you're not baby sitting cadet FOs.

Literally every airline, even mainline receives a whole lot of negative sentiments on this website. Can someone please tell me which flying job in this country is the best kept secret?

[deja vu]

Is it really that bad in relative terms? The pay seems to be inline with most regional captain pay if not better and you're not staring down the barrel of 5 sectors and a min rest over nights week in week out. And you're not baby sitting cadet FOs.

Literally every airline, even mainline receives a whole lot of negative sentiments on this website. Can someone please tell me which flying job in this country is the best kept secret?
Yes, regional captains pay is just as lousy.

[machtuk]

Is it really that bad in relative terms? The pay seems to be inline with most regional captain pay if not better and you're not staring down the barrel of 5 sectors and a min rest over nights week in week out. And you're not baby sitting cadet FOs.

Literally every airline, even mainline receives a whole lot of negative sentiments on this website. Can someone please tell me which flying job in this country is the best kept secret?

It's not that bad, some just want it all which aviation doesn't cater for! Some seem to always 'compare', "he is getting more than me mentality"! It's not about comparing it is what it is, don't like it then you shouldn't have signed up!!!!!! I spent many years in AeroMed, was the best job, not the best paid but the best job, not everything is about money, we are so focused on the $$$ some lose sight of life itself! The Ruffdus like ALL Co's have their internal issues, what aviation Co doesn't?

[74world]

Hey DEJA_VU.....loved your comments, unfortunately you were spot on ! :rolleyes:

[spektrum]

Yes, regional captains pay is just as lousy.

Fair call. Curiously where do you draw the line of lousy / not lousy?

It's not that bad, some just want it all which aviation doesn't cater for! Some seem to always 'compare', "he is getting more than me mentality"! It's not about comparing it is what it is, don't like it then you shouldn't have signed up!!!!!! I spent many years in AeroMed, was the best job, not the best paid but the best job, not everything is about money, we are so focused on the $$$ some lose sight of life itself! The Ruffdus like ALL Co's have their internal issues, what aviation Co doesn't?

Thanks for a balancing input. I also dare say that people who are all about the money are far more likely to voice their complaints via this medium then the large group of pilots who just lurk and get on with the job.

[Burleigh Effect]

Can someone please tell me which flying job in this country is the best kept secret?

I’d bet this is certainly toward the top of the list.

Paspaley Flying Boats - Paspaley Group (http://www.paspaleygroup.com/aviation/mallards)

[deja vu]

[QUOTE=spektrum;10572685]Fair call. Curiously where do you draw the line of lousy / not lousy?


I would draw the line of lousy/not lousy based on earning enough that a pilot can afford to provide modestly for a family and maybe even save enough for a reasonable retirement. Despite all the comments that it is wrong to compare I can't help but mention that a Melbourne suburban train driver earns around the same as a RFDS / Regional Captain pilots fixed pay before his/her penalty rates kick in, possibly doubling his/her take home pay. The train driver does this with zero training costs or years of striving, simulator and medical renewal and job security for life.

[KRviator]

Despite all the comments that it is wrong to compare I can't help but mention that a Melbourne suburban train driver earns around the same as a RFDS / Regional Captain pilots fixed pay before his/her penalty rates kick in, possibly doubling his/her take home pay. The train driver does this with zero training costs or years of striving, simulator and medical renewal and job security for life.AS a train driver I can endorse your philosophy. I gave up flying for a career 13 years ago and have never looked back. Suburban guys, particularly in Brisbane and Melbourne are quite well paid notwithstanding the roster.

Freight drivers - depending on company and depot - can earn well over $140K and if you go to one of the Pilbara operators you can take home north of $200K easily, particularly if you are employed as a residential driver there, though FIFO employees are on much less. I now work a 2 week on, 4 week off roster and gross around $110K but that was my choice to go part-time. On a 2 on, 2 off FIFO roster, that was around $165K give or take, though a good mate has just left for another company and is on $210K as a casual Driver.

We still have Cat1 medicals to comply with, though that is essentially the equivalent of an aviation Class 1, with a few things omitted, and I know of quite a few guys who have struggled to pass that with the more stringent criteria imposed recently, mostly stress testing or sleep related. To earn the sort of coin though, you are up at all hours, can have your shift changed at the drop of a hat +2 hours or -4 hours, many depots operate "blank line" or "pencil" rosters, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't find out what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today, though the Suburban drivers have a fixed roster and can swap jobs/days with other volunteers to suit their own needs.

Knowing what I know now would I ever go back to flying as a career? RFDS, perhaps, but I don't have the experience to qualify, but beyond that, not a bloody chance... I fly for fun now, when I want, where I want and I don't have to deal with security going to work every shift...:mad:

[krismiler]

I had a mate who did a short spell with the RFDS,

Basically maintenance is as good as it gets, they can't afford to have an aircraft break down when a call comes in so write it up and it's fixed no questions asked.
They really look after you and job security is excellent.
By GA standards pay is good however he did mention that the flight nurse earned more than he did.
Base was determined by supply and demand, apparently Charleville was popular and no one wanted to leave.
You are required to live within a certain distance/time to the airport.
Single pilot IFR, and could be quite demanding when trying to land on a bush strip during a stormy night.

It's a unique job, like flying in Antarctica or being a seaplane pilot in the Maldives.

[pilotchute]

I have a suspicion that the new generation of pilots starting out in Australia see being in GA for any longer than 2 years is a failure by the pilot.

Its all aboat getting multi crew turbo prop time as a leg up to the big jet.

Cobham Coastwatch
Rex
Sharp
Skippers
Jetstar
Virgin

If these companies could source all their pilots via pay for training, sorry "cadet scheme" they would.

RFDS is now stuck with trying to source pilots who used Govt funding to pay for their licence because they failed to get into one of the above schemes.

[outnabout]

Pilotchute, I am also seeing and hearing of more GA companies who will select a self-funded pilot over a VETFEE funded pilot any day. As a broad generalisation, self-funded pilots are more likely to turn up on time, be prepared and have done some homework prior to the lesson / flight. VETFEE pilots are more likely to be at uni because Ma & Pa want them to do a degree, and becoming a pilot might help pickup chicks.

We are also seeing the first failure rate when GA pilots move from singles to twins (piston or turbine)...there are those who shouldn't be flying anything more complex than a 206, and there are those who shouldn't be flying...

On the regional airlines, we are starting to see the difference between cadets who are trained to operate an aircraft within a particular set of paremeters, and those ex-GA jockeys who can fly an aircraft. Both are now appearing in the captains seat, and the difference is obvious.

The RFDS situation is just the tip of the iceberg.

[deja vu]

I had a mate who did a short spell with the RFDS,

Basically maintenance is as good as it gets, they can't afford to have an aircraft break down when a call comes in so write it up and it's fixed no questions asked.
They really look after you and job security is excellent.
By GA standards pay is good however he did mention that the flight nurse earned more than he did.
Base was determined by supply and demand, apparently Charleville was popular and no one wanted to leave.
You are required to live within a certain distance/time to the airport.
Single pilot IFR, and could be quite demanding when trying to land on a bush strip during a stormy night.

It's a unique job, like flying in Antarctica or being a seaplane pilot in the Maldives.

Sorry to labour the point but Krismillers mate only worked for the RFDS for a short time, why, could it be he/she couldn't get a sustainable wage? He goes on to mention "By GA standards the pay is good" The truth is that GA pay standards are appalling. The reasons for this are unchanged over 50 years that I know of, pilots working for below salary, flying unserviceable aircraft overweight and out of hours etc just to get the hours to get to the high paying gig in an airline, then sneering at GA as crap. Shonky operators cutting corners, tendering below par to get a contract and then putting the screws on pilots to make it work for them. And so we come to this now that the RFDS is claiming it's a global shortage of pilots that is responsible for their predicament, what garbage.
Make no mistake, the RFDS is not that cosy fuzzy Mother Theresa like benevolent organisation it makes out, it's a business, as ruthless and cutthroat as any other in this industry and a long way from the Rev. Flynn's idea of a community service.
And for a few obviously retired ex airline pilots to suggest that RFDS or GA pilots should just suck it up because they "want it all" and have lost sight of what life is all about or the CEO to suggest the "pilots give back to the sector" is the height of hypocrisy.

A look at the post from KRviator will give you an idea what is happening in the real world, he has to be the smartest guy to visit PPrune. We all know why his industry can afford to pay what they do, no shonky operators undercutting and no sycophantic drivers prepared to work for less. Costs passed onto the consumer, easy

[machtuk]

Sorry to labour the point but Krismillers mate only worked for the RFDS for a short time, why, could it be he/she couldn't get a sustainable wage? He goes on to mention "By GA standards the pay is good" The truth is that GA pay standards are appalling. The reasons for this are unchanged over 50 years that I know of, pilots working for below salary, flying unserviceable aircraft overweight and out of hours etc just to get the hours to get to the high paying gig in an airline, then sneering at GA as crap. Shonky operators cutting corners, tendering below par to get a contract and then putting the screws on pilots to make it work for them. And so we come to this now that the RFDS is claiming it's a global shortage of pilots that is responsible for their predicament, what garbage.
Make no mistake, the RFDS is not that cosy fuzzy Mother Theresa like benevolent organisation it makes out, it's a business, as ruthless and cutthroat as any other in this industry and a long way from the Rev. Flynn's idea of a community service.
And for a few obviously retired ex airline pilots to suggest that RFDS or GA pilots should just suck it up because they "want it all" and have lost sight of what life is all about or the CEO to suggest the "pilots give back to the sector" is the height of hypocrisy.

A look at the post from KRviator will give you an idea what is happening in the real world, he has to be the smartest guy to visit PPrune. We all know why his industry can afford to pay what they do, no shonky operators undercutting and no sycophantic drivers prepared to work for less. Costs passed onto the consumer, easy

i feel sorry for people like you, you truly are just plain angry with yr multiple "bag 'em" posts!
How many years did you work for the RFDS to make you so bitter?

[Hans Solo]

i feel sorry for people like you, you truly are just plain angry with yr multiple "bag 'em" posts!
How many years did you work for the RFDS to make you so bitter?

Deja Vu is spot on...after decades in the rfds, it has become a corporate entity and a long way from when I started....Management are their for one reason,,,themselves!

[logansi]

i feel sorry for people like you, you truly are just plain angry with yr multiple "bag 'em" posts!
How many years did you work for the RFDS to make you so bitter?

More than likely they applied and never got a job with them, and because they didn't hire 'gods gift to aviation' then clearly they are a bad place.

[rcoight]

The job is excellent, but the pay is lousy. It really is as simple as that for a lot of people.
The pool of pilots who have the experience required and are happy to do what is required to the required standard for the money on offer is drying up.
Unfortunately RFDS management refuse to accept that reality.
Rather than trying to attract people who are only ever going to use them as a leg-up to the airlines they’d be better off properly looking after the pilots already there so that they don’t leave. Believe me, a lot of them don’t want to leave but they have a family and a life like everyone else.
As has been mentioned above, the fact that the pilot is the lowest paid person out of everyone in the aircraft is a disgrace.

[Global Aviator]

Why are the drivers the least paid onboard? Because they can get away with it. I agree it is a disgrace. I have never flown these demanding ops, just a few jet patient transfers.

The rosters seem stable, demanding call out and weather, remote strips, black holes.....

Experience levels used to be demanded extremely high.

Why have pilot wages been allowed to slip?

Yes the public think its a charity service hence the huge amounts raised in the public arena. Yet private companies that may tender low to win the contract but then? Where does all the money raised go?

Why are these drivers not some of the best paid???

[Cloudee]

Why make a big deal about the pilot being the lowest paid on board? Doctors and nurses need a uni degree and substantial extra qualifications to work in the aero medical field. It’s not a competition between them and the pilots. By all means go for higher wages, but you won’t get the money by pointing to the medical staff and complaining.

[Hans Solo]

Why are the drivers the least paid onboard? Because they can get away with it. I agree it is a disgrace. I have never flown these demanding ops, just a few jet patient transfers.

The rosters seem stable, demanding call out and weather, remote strips, black holes.....

Experience levels used to be demanded extremely high.

Why have pilot wages been allowed to slip?

Yes the public think its a charity service hence the huge amounts raised in the public arena. Yet private companies that may tender low to win the contract but then? Where does all the money raised go?

Why are these drivers not some of the best paid???

They don't give a **** about their current pilots and and have no qualms about breaching the EBA when it suits them, so why would the current Pilots want to stay!!

[deja vu]

More than likely they applied and never got a job with them, and because they didn't hire 'gods gift to aviation' then clearly they are a bad place.
I'm not sure if this post is just an appalling use of English or is the new virtue signalling around the use of the latest Woke gender pronouns, they and them.

In any case for your ease of understanding and to avoid offending any very sensitive woke souls, God's gift to aviation ( herein after to be known as "they" ) never did apply to the RFDS ( herein after to be known as "them"), When "they" was seeking employment in the general aviation field, "them" only operated in remote areas and "they" chose to accept work with another city based Aeromed operator for many years and thereafter enjoyed an amazing career through to retirement in heavier than air vehicles of a more significant size and speed. So "them" were never offered or enjoyed the benefit of "they"'s God given gift.

Clearly "them" or "they" are not "a bad place", or even a good place for that matter. A place has co-ordinates, you know a whole lot of numbers in groups with a letter in front. In fact "them" is an organisation, not a place. "They" has no opinion on wether "them" is a good or bad organisation but "they" believes that "them" do not currently offer good long term career prospects for people like "they", gifted or not.

[lucille]

Just perused the RFDS website, I see an advert for B350 pilots with required min hours of 2000 plus 500 ME. Seems a tad on the low side unless all they’re doing these days is flying the magenta line.

Deja Vu is correct about the history of GA pilots conditions. I look back on my career and shake my head at what I accepted just to get a few more hours on the next level up, Only did well after leaving to fly overseas. A move that I cannot recommend too highly to anyone wanting to lift themselves out of the poverty cycle.

[Obidiah]

Why make a big deal about the pilot being the lowest paid on board? Doctors and nurses need a uni degree and substantial extra qualifications to work in the aero medical field. It’s not a competition between them and the pilots. By all means go for higher wages, but you won’t get the money by pointing to the medical staff and complaining.

Exactly!!

They get paid more because they are worth more, the pilots role on board is probably the least complex and least demanding of all three roles along with the fact the only role which has sensible (??) duty time restrictions.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Exactly!!

They get paid more because they are worth more, the pilots role on board is probably the least complex and least demanding of all three roles along with the fact the only role which has sensible (??) duty time restrictions.

What is 'worth' anyway? Who decides what someone is worth? Purely as an observation, the pilot on these flights is responsible for all lives onboard not just the patient. Duty time restrictions don't mean anything when you are single pilot IFR going into/out of an outback strip at 4am in crap weather. How ironic that an employer demands high levels of experience with a certain level of pay but then when it suits them i.e. supply drops, they simple reduce the hours requirement. New joiners are magically 'worth' more!

[deja vu]

Just perused the RFDS website, I see an advert for B350 pilots with required min hours of 2000 plus 500 ME. Seems a tad on the low side unless all they’re doing these days is flying the magenta line.

Deja Vu is correct about the history of GA pilots conditions. I look back on my career and shake my head at what I accepted just to get a few more hours on the next level up, Only did well after leaving to fly overseas. A move that I cannot recommend too highly to anyone wanting to lift themselves out of the poverty cycle.



I too note only one pilot job on the RFDS website and that is for someone to warm a RHS on a B350 based at Jandakot and paying around $20K below the average Australian salary.. Strange for an outfit that claims it can't get pilots.
Sadly the overseas options we took have long since become "uneconomically viable" too.

[deja vu]

Exactly!!

They get paid more because they are worth more, the pilots role on board is probably the least complex and least demanding of all three roles along with the fact the only role which has sensible (??) duty time restrictions.

Without a pilot no one is worth anything. Maybe instead they could jump in a road ambulance for the trip from Charleville to Brisbane, at least the ambulance driver would be getting well paid.

[krismiler]

I look back on my career and shake my head at what I accepted just to get a few more hours on the next level up, Only did well after leaving to fly overseas. A move that I cannot recommend too highly to anyone wanting to lift themselves out of the poverty cycle.

I know exactly what you mean, with the oversupply in the early 1990s employers could and did take advantage with below award wages and conditions. If you didn't accept then there was always someone who would. Going overseas was the best thing I ever did and I only wish I had been in a position to do it sooner.

Bad employers are crying because they don't have a queue of pilots willing to take whatever they offer and even the good ones are battling with retention as the path to the airlines has sped up.

BTW My mate got a job with Flight West on the F28 and is now with Cathy.

[deja vu]

Why make a big deal about the pilot being the lowest paid on board? Doctors and nurses need a uni degree and substantial extra qualifications to work in the aero medical field. It’s not a competition between them and the pilots. By all means go for higher wages, but you won’t get the money by pointing to the medical staff and complaining.

So correct me if I am wrong, but if a pilot had a degree from a uni, like a degree in aviation (LOL) from say RMIT Uni he/she should be paid the same as a doctor or a nurse or at least significantly more than the current rate.. And do tell us more about the "substantial extra qualifications to work in the aero medical field" What complete tosh.

[deja vu]

i feel sorry for people like you, you truly are just plain angry with yr multiple "bag 'em" posts!
How many years did you work for the RFDS to make you so bitter?
Don't feel sorry, feel ashamed!

[Cloudee]

So correct me if I am wrong, but if a pilot had a degree from a uni, like a degree in aviation (LOL) from say RMIT Uni he/she should be paid the same as a doctor or a nurse or at least significantly more than the current rate.. And do tell us more about the "substantial extra qualifications to work in the aero medical field" What complete tosh.

A pilot doesn't need a degree, a nurse or a doctor does. Clearly you have no idea of the extra qualifications you need to work as a doctor or nurse for the RFDS but you can claim it to be tosh. You must be one of those skygods.

[deja vu]

A pilot doesn't need a degree, a nurse or a doctor does. Clearly you have no idea of the extra qualifications you need to work as a doctor or nurse for the RFDS but you can claim it to be tosh. You must be one of those skygods.

Quite right, I have no idea of any extra "substantial" qualifications needed to work as a doctor or a nurse for the RFDS and that is why I asked you to clarify. I suspect you don't know either and that you just made that up.
Doctors and nurses do a course of study and when it's completed successfully they get a document called a Degree, when a pilot successfully does a course of study he/she gets a licence, same thing really, a permit to exercise the privileges of whatever document you receive.

So until you can clarify it all this particular skygod thinks you talk absolute tosh.

[Global Aviator]

Without a pilot no one is worth anything. Maybe instead they could jump in a road ambulance for the trip from Charleville to Brisbane, at least the ambulance driver would be getting well paid.

Just a little googling - https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Salary/Ambulance-Victoria-Paramedic-Salaries-E351141_D_KO19,28.htm so the drivers are also the paramedics. Doesn’t seem that high to me!

This kind of flying should be the best paid in industry. It’s not just flying it’s single pilot flying which means you do it all. Plus as a poster wrote even though one tries not to be involved there is that emotional attachment that is natural. It’s easy to say one doesn’t get involved but I’m sure it’s always there.

I bet the companies are making a good buck. Tendered contract at a rate. So I ask again all the money raised through public donations where does this go?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Amazing what lengths some people will go to to justify an organisation not paying people what they’re worth.

GA as a whole has a terrible history of taking advantage of people. It’s quite enjoyable watching the industry as a whole at this part of the cycle where pilots are becoming a valuable commodity again and it’s the pilots fault for not being loyal to employers. Ha.

[Rated De]

Amazing what lengths some people will go to to justify an organisation not paying people what they’re worth.

GA as a whole has a terrible history of taking advantage of people. It’s quite enjoyable watching the industry as a whole at this part of the cycle where pilots are becoming a valuable commodity again and it’s the pilots fault for not being loyal to employers. Ha.



Very true.
Once it was a simple handshake. How time has progressed.
Companies have the leverage: too many pilots, having paid too much money for the available employment. Terms and conditions in a slow spiral ever since.

However, demographics and the incredible success of the HR/IR reducing terms and conditions see insufficient supply.

Rather amusing. The industry desperate to hold on to the status quo resorts to calls of loyalty and professionalism. The same thing they considered irrelevant for the last few decades.

[Alice Kiwican]

I too note only one pilot job on the RFDS website and that is for someone to warm a RHS on a B350 based at Jandakot and paying around $20K below the average Australian salary.. Strange for an outfit that claims it can't get pilots.
Sadly the overseas options we took have long since become "uneconomically viable" too.

Not sure where you are looking but every section has EOI ads for pilots on the RFDS website. Also I think you’ll find the B350 is Dubbo and that Western Ops (eg Jandakot) only have PC12’s and PC24’s

[machtuk]

Don't feel sorry, feel ashamed!

ok I feel ashamed for you then, sad either way you feel the need to be so negative about everything seeing as (I assume ) you never even worked for them!

[spektrum]

Machtuk, I feel you buddy but you're getting trolled by the autists. Time to get off the internet.

[rcoight]

Exactly!!

They get paid more because they are worth more, the pilots role on board is probably the least complex and least demanding of all three roles along with the fact the only role which has sensible (??) duty time restrictions.

That’s a joke, right?
Nice trolling.

[rcoight]

A pilot doesn't need a degree, a nurse or a doctor does. Clearly you have no idea of the extra qualifications you need to work as a doctor or nurse for the RFDS but you can claim it to be tosh. You must be one of those skygods.

I’m an RFDS pilot. My partner is an RFDS flight nurse. Thus we have a lot more idea than you do, mate.

She thinks it’s extraordinary how little the pilots are valued by management, and is worried about the constantly lowering requirements to be considered for the (pilot) job.

I wonder what would happen if the flight nurses simply refused to fly with low time pilots?

[Cloudee]

I’m an RFDS pilot. My partner is an RFDS flight nurse. Thus we have a lot more idea than you do, mate.

She thinks it’s extraordinary how little the pilots are valued by management, and is worried about the constantly lowering requirements to be considered for the (pilot) job.

I wonder what would happen if the flight nurses simply refused to fly with low time pilots?


Read my posts again mate. I have no problem with RFDS pilots being paid more than they whatever they are getting, I don't doubt management want to lower costs by offering lower wages (and they still get inundated with pilot applicants). I was just replying to the guy who seems to think it is an affront to humanity if the pilot is not the highest paid person on board.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Deja Vu,
Am I correct in understanding that you think a pilot with a university degree has achieved a degree of academic achievement equivalent to that achieved by a Doctor? ...or even a Nurse?

[rcoight]

Read my posts again mate. I have no problem with RFDS pilots being paid more than they whatever they are getting, I don't doubt management want to lower costs by offering lower wages (and they still get inundated with pilot applicants). I was just replying to the guy who seems to think it is an affront to humanity if the pilot is not the highest paid person on board.

Ok. The thing is RFDS are NOT inundated with applications - at least not from people they should be considering.
They are now considering (and more) applications from people who wouldn’t have made the “filing cabinet” a few years ago. It is not unreasonable to ask why the entry standards have dropped so much.
To be honest, the public should be asking this question.
The obvious answer is that while historically RFDS has (rightly) been considered to be the very best of GA and a genuine long term career goal for the right people, in the current environment what they offer is simply not attractive enough to bring in the caliber of pilots the job requires.
What’s happening now is that ****loads of low-time pilots are using RFDS to pump up their resume for a year or two and then leaving ASAP to that airline job they really wanted all along.

[krismiler]

What’s happening now is that ****loads of low-time pilots are using RFDS to pump up their resume for a year or two and then leaving ASAP to that airline job they really wanted all along.

"I'm not interested in flying for the airlines." Is right up there with "Of course I love you." and "The cheque's in the post." It must be one of the most overused lies in the aviation industry.

[deja vu]

Deja Vu,
Am I correct in understanding that you think a pilot with a university degree has achieved a degree of academic achievement equivalent to that achieved by a Doctor? ...or even a Nurse?

No, I do not think or suggest that a pilot "has achieved a degree of academic achievement to that of a Doctor" ? ..or even a Nurse? Some may have but its is not even about that. Some previous posters suggested that Doctors and Nurses were "worth" more than others members on the RFDS team because they had "Uni degrees", so I simply asked if a pilot had a "Uni degree" would they or should they be paid more money. I got no response to that.

What this whole thread is about to me is that GA pilots do not receive sufficient renumeration to live a modest life and a comfortable retirement considering their responsibilities. This has mostly come about, in my view, by a supply and demand situation. Operators like the RFDS have taken advantage of this for many years and now claim that they can't get pilots to work for peanuts as easily any longer and so plead for the pilots to "give back to the sector" while happily paying up to $450K for a GP, if I am reading their website correctly. No one begrudges the Doctor or Nurse earning what they do, thats probably just market forces too.

If we were to pay people based on "academic achievement" alone would aircraft refuellers be making $120K+, train drivers in the Pilbarra $250K+, Alan Joyce $24Million, plumbers $300K etc etc. ???.

A look at the RFDS website shows one vacancy for a pilot in Dubbo, RHS for a B350 earning about the same as check out staff at woolies. There are numerous ads for EOI for pilot jobs, but these are not vacancies but an exercise in filling a filing cabinet with applications. No urgent shortage at all.

I can't help, in my negative cynicism, suspect there is more at play here with this whole issue.

[deja vu]

ok I feel ashamed for you then, sad either way you feel the need to be so negative about everything seeing as (I assume ) you never even worked for them!


Its only hypothetical, of course, since neither of us ever worked for the good old "RUFFDUS", that if you had, you would have happily carried the doctor's bags out to the aircraft whilst they strolled out empty handed. I can picture it now.

[deja vu]

How long is it to a Brisbane base with them?

Enter the Brisbane base in your GPS, it should show you the track and distance to the Brisbane base. Or you could apply to "them" and ask "them' how long. Unbelievable.

[deja vu]

Deja Vu,
Am I correct in understanding that you think a pilot with a university degree has achieved a degree of academic achievement equivalent to that achieved by a Doctor? ...or even a Nurse?

Is it my paranoia or is the word "pilot" in lower case and "Doctor" and "Nurse" with capitals of any significance.?

[machtuk]

Its only hypothetical, of course, since neither of us ever worked for the good old "RUFFDUS", that if you had, you would have happily carried the doctor's bags out to the aircraft whilst they strolled out empty handed. I can picture it now.

…....and you know this how? You obviously never worked for them but don't assume I never did!

[deja vu]

…....and you know this how? You obviously never worked for them but don't assume I never did!
Call it a gift if you like but I have the ability to pick a BS artist from a long way off. If you had ever worked for the RFDS ( as a pilot) we would have had a blow by blow description many posts ago, "AeroMed for many years and enough turbo prop time to sink a ship so only the jet for me". Spare us!
I learned many years ago that in aviation never to assume anything, maybe you know the rest.

[machtuk]

Call it a gift if you like but I have the ability to pick a BS artist from a long way off. If you had ever worked for the RFDS ( as a pilot) we would have had a blow by blow description many posts ago, "AeroMed for many years and enough turbo prop time to sink a ship so only the jet for me". Spare us!
I learned many years ago that in aviation never to assume anything, maybe you know the rest.

Oh you are gifted alright, for all the wrong reasons! You really are sad angry case! Anyway lets just say you will never know my background as you think you have all the answers so continue being a nasty piece of work, something you are good at but entertaining I guess, in to the ignore list for you!!

[deja vu]

Oh you are gifted alright, for all the wrong reasons! You really are sad angry case! Anyway lets just say you will never know my background as you think you have all the answers so continue being a nasty piece of work, something you are good at but entertaining I guess, in to the ignore list for you!!

Oh no, not the ignore list. Must have touched a nerve.

Oh well there are lots more sycophants out there happy to denigrate the GA industry, lecture pilots on what they should accept and how they should think and generally advocate on behalf of opportunists like the good ole Ruffdus.

[spektrum]

Enter the Brisbane base in your GPS, it should show you the track and distance to the Brisbane base. Or you could apply to "them" and ask "them' how long. Unbelievable.

What is the harm in asking the question on the forum? Why are you such an angry person?

[Obidiah]

That’s a joke, right?
Nice trolling.


No it wasn't and have I far more meaningful things to fill my day with than trolling.

Aside from my firm belief that both nurses and doctors level of academic qualification is above that of even an ATPL qualification, the fact that both doctors and nurses have a higher level of work intensity coupled with longer hours in any given RFDS day forms my belief they are both worth more than the pilot, hence why they are paid more.

As I am aware the attrition rate is vastly more attributed to the lack of work life balance than that of pilot remuneration.

Deja Vu;

Midwifery is usually (at least until very recently) an extra qualification required of a flight nurse along with a solid ED background.

[deja vu]

What is the harm in asking the question on the forum? Why are you such an angry person?

Well I guess I was sort of reacting to someone who doesn't have the nouse to find this information for "themselves" , rather put out a general question and have someone else do all the investigation to answer your query. Having spent many years on the committees of pilot unions I have very little affinity for those who rely on others to do all the work on their behalf. How pathetic is that, how do you expect things to improve if you can't get off your backside and enquire for yourself? and then refer to those who do the hard yards as "autists" . Yeah I do get angry

Never mind, Alice Kiwican, obviously a RFDS insider has come to your aid, ...

[deja vu]

No it wasn't and have I far more meaningful things to fill my day with than trolling.


Deja Vu;

Midwifery is usually (at least until very recently) an extra qualification required of a flight nurse along with a solid ED background.

Is that it? is midwifery required or not ? (usually or until recently, what the??? ) A far call from "extra substantial qualifications" required for doctors and nurses for RFDS operations.
Maybe you could spend your day meaningfully by checking the accuracy of the stuff you claim and are prepared to put into print.

[spektrum]

Well I guess I was sort of reacting to someone who doesn't have the nouse to find this information for "themselves" , rather put out a general question and have someone else do all the investigation to answer your query. Having spent many years on the committees of pilot unions I have very little affinity for those who rely on others to do all the work on their behalf. How pathetic is that, how do you expect things to improve if you can't get off your backside and enquire for yourself? and then refer to those who do the hard yards as "autists" . Yeah I do get angry

Never mind, Alice Kiwican, obviously a RFDS insider has come to your aid, ...

Rather than waste someones time at the organisation by calling, emailing etc, I figured the sensible thing to do FIRST would be to try my luck hoping someone in the know lurking these boards would volunteer the information.

All I was after was someone to type 'x years'. It was not an onerous request yet you've spent how long responding to and getting riled up over something you had no real interest in. How angry do you get when something actually worth getting angry over occurs? Do become violent or do you know to take your meds before things escalate?

[deja vu]

Rather than waste someones time at the organisation by calling, emailing etc, I figured the sensible thing to do FIRST would be to try my luck hoping someone in the know lurking these boards would volunteer the information.

All I was after was someone to type 'x years'. It was not an onerous request yet you've spent how long responding to and getting riled up over something you had no real interest in. How angry do you get when something actually worth getting angry over occurs? Do become violent or do you know to take your meds before things escalate?
Amazing, you don't have the gonads to contact them directly for fear you are wasting their time when they are claiming to have a pilot shortage, but it's ok to expect others "lurking the boards" ( LOL) to know the answers. Sorry, nothing but an oxygen thief.

[Obidiah]

Is that it? is midwifery required or not ? (usually or until recently, what the??? ) A far call from "extra substantial qualifications" required for doctors and nurses for RFDS operations.
Maybe you could spend your day meaningfully by checking the accuracy of the stuff you claim and are prepared to put into print.

Deja vu;

For what it's worth I just added that information for your benefit as you appeared to want to really drill down on another contributors post regarding such. It had been a requirement but there is some relaxation due to the difficulty in finding nurses with this qualification, likely now a case by case scenario. As for other extra qualifications I could not say, generally you will find the nurses are somewhat older than the average of the pool due to the years required to obtain the skill sets for the job.

Maybe you could celebrate this small single point win with a champagne popper discharged in your mouth.

[Global Aviator]

What’s wrong with calling it what it is? It’s demanding and challenging work. Why wouldn’t you want the Pilot (with a capital) being paid extremely well.

It reminds me of corporate jet owners who happily drop 60 mil on a machine yet push for cheaper Pilots?

In both cases if I was down the back either on life support or drinking the best 18 YO I would like to know I had the best I could get up the front..........

[Capt Fathom]

Someone on this thread is hanging on just a bit too tightly.
So much angst.
I just hope they don’t fly aeroplanes for a living. Or for pleasure!

[rcoight]

....the fact that both doctors and nurses have a higher level of work intensity coupled with longer hours in any given RFDS day forms my belief they are both worth more than the pilot, hence why they are paid more..

With respect, that is completely untrue.

Regardless, no one is suggesting the flight nurses don’t deserve what they get (they certainly do).
The issue is that RFDS management have totally failed to recognise the reality of the pilot shortage and are still conducting themselves as though they have a mountain of high quality pilot applications to call on every time someone leaves.

They don’t. And as a result they are heading very quickly towards what could be a real crisis for them.
All they need to do is recognise what’s happening and make more effort to stop the pilots they already have from looking elsewhere.

[j3pipercub]

Pile-its (capital Pee) for the RFDS (or any other aeromed organisation doing single pilot stuff in tubrprops) need to be paid at least 160-170k if the companies want to keep an experience base. Plain and simple. This is what a level 3 FO grosses with Virgin and is more than fair considering all the extra duties and risks involved in the operation (7 sector unscheduled night, refuel your own aircraft, top up oxygen in addition to towing it into and out of the hangar). If the companies in question do not think this figure is appropriate, they have to be comfortable with the higher cost of training and a higher risk of incident/accident due to pilot inexperience and turnover.

i also don’t think deja vu’s posts are aggressive or holding on too tight. They are repsonding to posters who seem to want to make the argument personal. But what would I know, I have to hold on tight, it’s so small you see.

j3

[lucille]

What’s irrelevant is the argument about who is worth more on the aircraft. The point is RFDS pilots are not being paid enough for the experience and competencies required to consistently operate with the required margin of safety in their (sometimes) demanding operation.

Someone earlier stated an airline F/O grosses $160K. Bluntly, all he/she has to do is adhere to SOPs, fly the magenta line with full automation and retract the landing gear on command. I’d argue, in comparison to a single pilot RFDS pilot, that F/O is grossly overpaid. (A lot of airlines overseas are now throwing pimply faced, 200 hour pilots into the RHS of A330s.... ask yourselves, how demanding can that job really be?).

To put the value of the RFDS pilots job in another albeit over dramatic perspective ... if the medical staff make an egregious mistake, they bury it. If a pilot does similar they bury him (and whoever else is on board). I’m pretty certain the medical crew on board any RFDS aircraft would be happy to know they have experienced, competent pilots up front being paid a reasonable wage.

Deja Vu is right! GA stinks.

[lucille]

Hopefully a few laughs to take some of the anger and heat out of this thread...

https://youtu.be/2P4Vv4Z2Ddg

[Trevor the lover]

Golly gosh, and I thought all the little year 9 girls at my daughter's school were catty little bitches. I wouldn't hire one of you little girls.

[krismiler]

(A lot of airlines overseas are now throwing pimply faced, 200 hour pilots into the RHS of A330s.... ask yourselves, how demanding can that job really be?).

A lot of these airlines actually train their pilots through from ab initio into the RHS at their expense rather than expecting to have already licensed and experienced pilots knocking on their doors with a fist full of $$$ to pay for their own endorsements.

Due to the nature of their operation, the RFDS can't have the sort of turnover that a charter operator in Darwin would expect. Single pilot, night IFR, high performance aircraft going into marginal strip strips during the wet season is best done by someone who's already done it a few hundred times and has "the knowledge" of his patch. A pilot who knows that if he crosses the reservoir and turns onto a heading of 210 then the airfield will be straight in front of him or that the bottom end of the runway is a bit soft when it rains. Things you only learn on the job, not from books.

Structure the pay and conditions so that competent and experienced pilots are attracted and retained. They need the grey haired 50 year olds with 10 000 hours in the log books who are going to stick around until retirement rather than the early 20s youngsters with 3000 hours and a current application in with several airlines. Unfortunately the youngsters without heavy commitments can afford to fly cheap whilst filling up the log book until they move on, the older pilots with mortgages, teenage children and an eye on the retirement fund can't.

[Burleigh Effect]

"I'm not interested in flying for the airlines." Is right up there with "Of course I love you." and "The cheque's in the post." It must be one of the most overused lies in the aviation industry.

Any suggestions on how to actually phrase a cover letter or application when you genuinely have no desire to fly for an airline?

I’ll clarify, specifically no desire to fly jets for ‘mainline’ operators.

[deja vu]

Deja vu;

For what it's worth I just added that information for your benefit as you appeared to want to really drill down on another contributors post regarding such. It had been a requirement but there is some relaxation due to the difficulty in finding nurses with this qualification, likely now a case by case scenario. As for other extra qualifications I could not say, generally you will find the nurses are somewhat older than the average of the pool due to the years required to obtain the skill sets for the job.

Maybe you could celebrate this small single point win with a champagne popper discharged in your mouth.
Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.

[Hans Solo]

Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.

Right...I've been doing this for decades, so I have some semblance of what goes on.....Number 1 the Docs are worth every bloody cent they get paid and more in my opinion....2 The Nurses are professionals that deserve to be paid well and 3..The Pilots are professionals that deserve substantionally more than they get, though it should not be based on what Dr's or Flight Nurses get, but on their own hard earned skills.
Hans

[Cloudee]

Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.
Well let’s just see if the docs are looking for a nurse straight out of uni or one with substantial extra qualification and experience. Here’s a current job ad.

The Royal Flying Doctor Service (QLD Section) is seeking suitably skilled and qualified nurses for the role of Flight Nurse (Midwifery) at our Townsville Base. The services provided from this base range from inter-hospital transfers to aeromedical and emergency response in remote areas. Our Flight Nurses are a valued and respected part of the aeromedical tam, showcasing their high-level clinical skills and patient care on a daily basis, and enjoying the challenge of never knowing what the day will bring.

Who we are looking for?

You are an experienced and high-performing Registered Nurse and Midwife with AHPRA registration, with exceptional patient care and equal commitment to contributing to the team and operational goals.

In addition, you will have:


A minimum of four to five years’ experience (within the last 7 years) in a critical care environment in either a recognised Major Regional or Tertiary Hospital Emergency Department, with a 24 hour in-department medical coverage or a recognised Intensive Care Unit. The required time can consist of critical care experience across both environments.
Current Advanced Life Support (ALS), Paediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS) and Neonatal resuscitation certification.

[deja vu]

Well let’s just see if the docs are looking for a nurse straight out of uni or one with substantial extra qualification and experience. Here’s a current job ad.

The Royal Flying Doctor Service (QLD Section) is seeking suitably skilled and qualified nurses for the role of Flight Nurse (Midwifery) at our Townsville Base. The services provided from this base range from inter-hospital transfers to aeromedical and emergency response in remote areas. Our Flight Nurses are a valued and respected part of the aeromedical tam, showcasing their high-level clinical skills and patient care on a daily basis, and enjoying the challenge of never knowing what the day will bring.

Who we are looking for?

You are an experienced and high-performing Registered Nurse and Midwife with AHPRA registration, with exceptional patient care and equal commitment to contributing to the team and operational goals.

In addition, you will have:

A minimum of four to five years’ experience (within the last 7 years) in a critical care environment in either a recognised Major Regional or Tertiary Hospital Emergency Department, with a 24 hour in-department medical coverage or a recognised Intensive Care Unit. The required time can consist of critical care experience across both environments.
Current Advanced Life Support (ALS), Paediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS) and Neonatal resuscitation certification.


Sure, saw that, but as your little mate suggests that although the RFDS might be looking for those qualifications in some locations, they are just not getting them. I hope you looked at numerous other RFDS ads for nurses, for example one in Cairns where midwifery would be an advantage but not required.

[rcoight]

What is wrong with some of you people?
No-one said the Dr or Nurse should be paid less. Get over it.
They have to be very well qualified and experienced. And, IN THE PAST, so did the pilots.
I didn’t even get an interview until I had well over 4000 hours, and that was all proper IFR charter, not buzzing around the circuit for most of it.
Because of the pilot shortage and the fact that a lot of RFDS pilots have walked into an airline job paying far more money, the RFDS has - rather than look after their existing pilots - simply lowered their requirements.
That is a very bad idea for a lot of reasons. Not least of which is that the nurses are starting to get worried.

[deja vu]

What is wrong with some of you people?
No-one said the Dr or Nurse should be paid less. Get over it.
They have to be very well qualified and experienced. And, IN THE PAST, so did the pilots.
I didn’t even get an interview until I had well over 4000 hours, and that was all proper IFR charter, not buzzing around the circuit for most of it.
Because of the pilot shortage and the fact that a lot of RFDS pilots have walked into an airline job paying far more money, the RFDS has - rather than look after their existing pilots - simply lowered their requirements.
That is a very bad idea for a lot of reasons. Not least of which is that the nurses are starting to get worried.
So do you know why the RFDS would allow this to go on?
Could it be that CEO's don't need/want to be responsible for increased costs during their watch which may be reflected on their CV, the ticket to their next job.? I would hate to think it was arrived at from an EBA.

[Centaurus]

They need the grey haired 50 year olds with 10 000 hours in the log books who are going to stick around until retirement

Thomas Cook have just gone under. Should be lots of spare pilots if RFDS that short of crews?

[redsnail]

Centaurus, they might be experienced but I doubt many will have the experience that RFDS needs. Many of their pilots would not have flown a turboprop, let alone any significant single pilot remote area experience. Certainly no one from the MPL background will have the appropriate experience.

krismiler Very few UK airlines pay for ab initio to hero flight training. Not many airlines do it in Europe either. Most cadets are looking at a £100-150K price tag.

[lucille]

Centaurus, they might be experienced but I doubt many will have the experience that RFDS needs. Many of their pilots would not have flown a turboprop, let alone any significant single pilot remote area experience. Certainly no one from the MPL background will have the appropriate experience.

krismiler Very few UK airlines pay for ab initio to hero flight training. Not many airlines do it in Europe either. Most cadets are looking at a £100-150K price tag.

Precisely.

And furthermore, those of us with tons of bush experience from decades ago and who have moved on to the gravy train of airline and other multi crew highly automated aircraft have lost the knack of single pilot IFR. Too many years staring at that magenta line addles the brain. I know that I could not do it today.

The pool of genuinely capable pilots from which the RFDS can confidently recruit has shrunk. They can expand that pool by offering the same salary as any mainline airline captain would earn.

[mattyj]

It’s good that you admit it..I have to admit too..there’s plenty of young guys who are much better sticks than me around. On the other hand..I have some leave and I got my eyes on a cub at the local GA field 🤤

[deja vu]

Thomas Cook have just gone under. Should be lots of spare pilots if RFDS that short of crews?
The RFDS are not short of crew, they are just short of the crew who will stay on a pittance. They are unwilling to do what any reasonable and sensible business would do and offer what it takes to attract and retain such essential specialist employees. They would rather bleat about an imaginary pilot shortage. Time to look at management I would think.
Ex airline pilots are not the answer, we know how that goes!

[Rated De]

The RFDS are not short of crew, they are just short of the crew who will stay on a pittance. They are unwilling to do what any reasonable and sensible business would do and offer what it takes to attract and retain such essential specialist employees. They would rather bleat about an imaginary pilot shortage. Time to look at management I would think.

Precisely.

[Derfred]

Genuine question: how do the RFDS Doctors and Nurses get paid compared to a cushy suburban practice?

[Scarecrow388]

Genuine question: how do the RFDS Doctors and Nurses get paid compared to a cushy suburban practice?

Yep! Not the best in Australia but still decent and they're treated fairly well as far as employers go plus having RFDS on your resume. They have a reasonably high retention rate as a result for their medical staff unlike a lot of private aeromedical services in Oceania. RFDS were pretty over staffed a few years back when careflight took the contracts in QLD and Darwin which should indicate the quality of careflight...

Nurses are RN and Midwife registered (4 years combined at uni), crit care cert (2 years working in ED/ICU plus 12 months study), remote area skilled (usually at least 2 years) and typically 5 years total at a start working ED or ICU.

Base nursing wage is around $118-120k a year. Typical comparative role in a hospital would be a Clinical Nurse Consultant which is around $90-100k a year.

But on top of that you get to travel and still reasonably be home on time (Unlike a lot of employers RDDS are fairly strict with them in the air), paid work to remote community events, very little management responsibility, flexible hours and leave and if you live close enough to the airport you can be on call at home in most areas. But more than anything in 99% of jobs you're working as 1 nurse as your medical/cabin/ground crew and yourself as the pilot and 1-2 patients. Responsibility is higher but so is autonomy.

Doctors depend on the region and role but are typically FRACGP (GPs), FACEM (ED doctors) or FANZCA (Anesthetics) in their emergency roles.
Doctors wages are highly variable so it's hard to estimate but more than enough to retain their doctors, in the $250,-350k mark for their GPs and $300-500k for their specialists and senior medical staff. The GPs that I know in central ops are typically FRACGP and Anesthetics or emergency and have worked in large ED or theaters before.


Just a little googling - (Glass door) so the drivers are also the paramedics. Doesn’t seem that high to me!


​​​​​​Glass door isn't a accurate representation. You'll have hard pressed to find a paramedic earning less than 90k straight out the door of their internship and​​​​ unlike pilots, aren't capped by casa at working overtime.
paramedics in the city are easily pushing 100k+, rural area and team leaders comfortably sit in the 150-180k mark.

Above coming from the perspective of a gov emplyoed Nurse/Paramedic who has friends working as doctors and nurses for them.

[krismiler]

Any suggestions on how to actually phrase a cover letter or application when you genuinely have no desire to fly for an airline?

The only sure way is to be above the age limit for the airlines, which is a bit difficult these days with all the anti discrimination legislation, but the older you are the better you look. Having a restriction or waiver on your ticket is another plus point, as is being significantly overweight.

RFDS need bush pilots, not children of the magenta line. Whilst it would be unreasonable to expect the same pay as an airline Captain, first officer level would be realistic as a Kingair can’t bring in the income that a B737 can. The trade off for lower pay is a more relaxed working environment without having every aspect of your day micromanaged with SOPs, over regulation and endless simulator checks.

If the RFDS paid the same as the airlines they would have a lot of applications on the files from airline Pilots who are fed up of the endless bulls**t and would rather do what they enjoy which is flying a plane. Once the golden handcuffs are on they are very hard to remove.

[Toruk Macto]

Do airline pilots make good RFDS pilots generally ? Are airline pilots disadvantaged at the interview stage ? How many airline pilots actually get a start with aeromedical operations ?

[DrongoDriver]

Just a thought, why don’t the RFDS go two crew?

Get a low-time (500-700hr pilot) in the RHS, get them involved in the operation. Get experience with a mentor in the LHS then after a few years move them into the left seat.

But I agree, the RFDS pilots definitely need to be on an airline salary. Simple market economics, pay more for a better product.

[spektrum]

Just a thought, why don’t the RFDS go two crew?

Get a low-time (500-700hr pilot) in the RHS, get them involved in the operation. Get experience with a mentor in the LHS then after a few years move them into the left seat.

But I agree, the RFDS pilots definitely need to be on an airline salary. Simple market economics, pay more for a better product.

For this proposition then yes, they will need to pay jet airline pay. The RFDS is one of the few places where you can get refuge from baby sitting someone whilst getting a reliable income. Make it multi crew and you'll see even more people leave. It's the same crap then may as well try and go where the money is better.

[zanthrus]

Drongo Driver, the PC12 is weight limited at remote bases. Standard fuel load for some bases (1800lbs?) is way less than full tanks (2300lbs?). You could have onboard a pilot(essential!), flight nurse, doctor, up to two stretcher patients non stretcher patients, a police officer, or patient relative. So easily 6-7 persons. If you get retasked mid flight to a close destination you will be too heavy to land. Adding another pilot to the load doesn't really help in this regard.

[DrongoDriver]

For this proposition then yes, they will need to pay jet airline pay. The RFDS is one of the few places where you can get refuge from baby sitting someone whilst getting a reliable income. Make it multi crew and you'll see even more people leave. It's the same crap then may as well try and go where the money is better.

Ah of course. Totally forgot having someone in the RHS is “babysitting” :rolleyes:

They couldn’t be passing on experience or sharing the workload in such a high-intensity scenario like aeromedical flights into the middle of nowhere. I forgot that people are born with 10,000 hours and there’s no place for young pilots trying to improve their skills. No wonder the young guys nowadays have such a bleak outlook on the industry...

[junior.VH-LFA]

For this proposition then yes, they will need to pay jet airline pay. The RFDS is one of the few places where you can get refuge from baby sitting someone whilst getting a reliable income. Make it multi crew and you'll see even more people leave. It's the same crap then may as well try and go where the money is better.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[spektrum]

What's the problem? Every major airline in Australia takes cadets and its not everyones wish to fly with them. Remember, there is no pilot shortage in Australia. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for the money airlines (mainly regionals) are paying.

[Jeffory]

To be fair, the majority of GA in Australia is generally a pretty bad work environment to be in. Why endure 4,000 hours of it when someone can just babysit you in a multi crew environment? We can't all be born during a that period in time that makes us great pilots, so most of us younger drivers will always just be inept.

[Trevor the lover]

Krismiler, were you serious??
"The trade off for lower pay is a more relaxed working environment without having every aspect of your day micromanaged with SOPs, over regulation and endless simulator checks"

Do you really think they are not working to strict SOPs? Do you really think they are not doing 6 monthly sim sessions?? Quite offensive that you dumb it down. Professional aeromedical pilots operate to strong SOPs and are trained and tested to the same standard as the airlines...

And I'd like to know what constitutes a bush pilot now. These days the aircraft are fitted with advanced avionics and GPS guidance - not much different to airlines. The difference is dirt strips and less radar ATC guidance. Still lots of following the magenta line.

[DrongoDriver]

What's the problem? Every major airline in Australia takes cadets and its not everyones wish to fly with them. Remember, there is no pilot shortage in Australia. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for the money airlines (mainly regionals) are paying.

I never said anything about cadets. The RFDS is the last organisation in the world who should take cadets. The reason I said 500hr-700hr is that it’s usually a pilot whose done a wet season or at least a bit of GA flying. They’re around the time where regionals are trying to poach them and if you get them into the organisation, they see the lifestyle, conditions and what they’re doing actually making a difference.

The other problem with having such high requirements is that they’re usually only attained after 5+ years in GA. Good luck finding someone after that period in GA who doesn’t now hate GA and wants the security and cashflow of an airline job.

[krismiler]

Krismiler, were you serious ?

No offense meant but you would have to experience the airline environment to believe the endless regulation, micro management, daily blizzard of memos and instructions and sheer volume of all the books. Pedantic checking and training, every move being monitored and in many cases, a punitive culture. Back of the clock and timezone changes are no fun either.

I've done bush and aeromedical in past lives and quite frankly, would be quite happy to go back to it if I had a decent base, same pay as I'm on at the moment and staff travel benefits.

[rcoight]

Just a thought, why don’t the RFDS go two crew?

Get a low-time (500-700hr pilot) in the RHS, get them involved in the operation. Get experience with a mentor in the LHS then after a few years move them into the left seat.

But I agree, the RFDS pilots definitely need to be on an airline salary. Simple market economics, pay more for a better product.




The day RFDS go two-crew will be the day I hand in my resignation.
Luckily, it won’t happen.

Completely agree with your last paragraph.

[KRUSTY 34]

No offense meant but you would have to experience the airline environment to believe the endless regulation, micro management, daily blizzard of memos and instructions and sheer volume of all the books. Pedantic checking and training, every move being monitored and in many cases, a punitive culture. Back of the clock and timezone changes are no fun either.

I've done bush and aeromedical in past lives and quite frankly, would be quite happy to go back to it if I had a decent base, same pay as I'm on at the moment and staff travel benefits.

It’s not rocket science is it krismiler?

Serious question: In the big scheme of things, just how much would a 50% pay rise for the pilots add to the cost of the operation. When you have hundreds or even thousands of drivers I get it. But we’re talking about a handful of dedicated people who would gladly stay if they were simply able to build a deservingly slightly above average life for themselves and their families​​​​​​. Not to mention the long term solving of the RFDS Crewing issues!

Frankly I still shake my head that we are even having this discussion.

[deja vu]

Frankly I still shake my head that we are even having this discussion.
At last I have an ally. Its not about what Drs. Nurses, airline pilots etc earn but about a liveable and sustainable salary.
The idea that 2 crew would solve the problem is farcical, all that means is that 2 people are surviving below the poverty line

[Dexta]

I think a point a lot of people forget is the list of things that can end a pilots career suddenly, medical issues mainly but other regulatory burdens as well. Other professions (Doctors, nurses etc) do not have the same 'sword of Damocles' hanging over them. This should be reflected in their renumeration.

[rcoight]

Serious question: In the big scheme of things, just how much would a 50% pay rise for the pilots add to the cost of the operation. When you have hundreds or even thousands of drivers I get it. But we’re talking about a handful of dedicated people who would gladly stay if they were simply able to build a deservingly slightly above average life for themselves and their families​​​​​​. Not to mention the long term solving of the RFDS Crewing issues!
Frankly I still shake my head that we are even having this discussion.

Absolutely spot on.

Unfortunately management don’t see it this way. The sad truth is they just don’t place much value on what the pilots do.

Except, of course, when there’s PR to be done. Then they want pilots and nurses out there smiling away saying how lucky they are and how amazing everything is...

[Obidiah]

I have no doubt throwing more money at RFDS pilots will help with retention but as I understand those that leave are often just looking for a better roster or natural career progression. Whilst the likes of Deja vu will try and convince you RFDS pilots are earning something akin to poverty line incomes, the reality is their incomes are generally well into a 6 figure amount, additionally there are also substantial tax benefits due to the charity status of RFDS.

In short RFDS pilots are considered to be in the top 10% of wage income earners in Australia. Whilst the likes of Barnaby Joyce may struggle on their 200k salaries most sensible people can sustain a good standard of living on a RFDS income.

As to the superlative skills of RFDS pilots, and yes they are pretty skilled pilots, some skilled pretty pilots too, but I doubt they can be called highly skilled bush pilots in the traditional sense, PNG pilots and similar are the true bush pilots and the accident rate reflects the difficulty of their work.

The challenging remote area flying disappeared along with NDB's, dead reckoning and piston engines, now its a world of FMS and glass cockpits and zero tolerance for risky scenarios. Airstrips are all surveyed, and generally of high standard for dirt strips, LSALT's are well promulgated and conservative and rigid SOP's rule the day/night. SPIFR in the likes of B200's and PC12's is not overly demanding compared to that of the piston engine era.

If management were to substantially increase pilot wages during the present relatively short lived high pilot demand times to retain pilots then they would wear this expense during the depressed times. Their trick is to see how long they can juggle with the present attrition rate until the cycle trends down, probably the easier tool to use is bolster the numbers the best they can, improve rosters and work/life balance and when things trend down tighten up the roster again. I don't suspect any of this is an easy process for management to deal with.

[neville_nobody]

All those sprouting 'children of the magenta line' BS probably need to move on from the 70s and realise that a PC12NG ( and virtually any new GA aircraft / Biz Jet) is way more technically advanced than either a A320 or B737 and that in fact it probably takes more airmanship to fly either jet than a PC12 due to a lack of technology.

I would argue that a RFDS Pilot in a PC 12 is much more of a magenta line follower than any domestic airline pilot just by the simple fact they are actually flying new technology. By comparison the magenta line in a A320\737 can't keep you in controlled airspace in Australia amongst other limitations. Additionally neither jet has all the avionics SA that is available to RFDS pilots. Newer GA aircraft are built for private pilots so have more help and work load reduction built into them than any airliner in Australia has.

I would suggest that the RFDS could probably get away with a lower experience level just by the simple fact that their aircraft are actually really technically advanced.


https://youtu.be/qW8ksXoE6P0


https://youtu.be/3JjGAWJhZyc

[BigPapi]

Neville, absolutely spot on.

Anybody who thinks that RFDS pilots are out there fighting thunderstorms with an ERC, an ADF and a whiz wheel really have the rose-tinted glasses on

[Trevor the lover]

Hence my question in post 107 - just what is a bush pilot now? Is remote area flying really remote area flying when a coupled up GPS takes you to within 3 meters of some Kimberley dirts strip.

[deja vu]

If management were to substantially increase pilot wages during the present relatively short lived high pilot demand times to retain pilots then they would wear this expense during the depressed times. Their trick is to see how long they can juggle with the present attrition rate until the cycle trends down, probably the easier tool to use is bolster the numbers the best they can, improve rosters and work/life balance and when things trend down tighten up the roster again. I don't suspect any of this is an easy process for management to deal with.[/QUOTE]

I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying... which from my understanding is that if management give the pilots a pay rise now, at a time of high pilot demand then they would have to " wear this expense" in times of a pilot glut. Hmmm. how awful. Or to suggest that to improve rosters and work/life balance now to help retain crews but screw them back again when we have got plenty of applicants. How exploitive is that? Disgraceful!

The standard of living argument is absurd. Barnaby has 2 families and they are all big eaters. Too many variables to be able to generalise. We have been talking about having a rewarding career and a comfortable retirement not involving Centrelink.

Would it be possible that you have more than a passing interest in all this,? just saying

[rcoight]

Good question. It certainly sounds like management / accountant speak.

[Hamley]

... just what is a bush pilot now? Is remote area flying really remote area flying when a coupled up GPS takes you to within 3 meters of some Kimberley dirts strip.

You bet Trev. They are all using GPS and iPads. Do you think that makes them lesser Pilots? I don’t.

These things help to keep them safe and makes their operations more efficient. Amazing enhancements to situational awareness.

Don’t anyone start with ‘its too distracting they forget the basics blah blah blah...’ there are plenty of good pilots out there using this stuff. You’d be a bad pilot if you didn’t.

I bet their wizz wheel forefathers would’ve put an iPad in their flight bag if it had been available to them.

Young pilots find it hard to stick it out in GA with bad pay and dodgy employers for enough time to make RFDS minimums. In the meantime airlines often offer a quicker path to stable employment.

[krismiler]

Back in the old days progression into the airlines was harder and the RFDS was a good option for a pilot who had served his bush apprenticeship but missed out on QF/Ansett/TAA. It was a more secure and better paid option then charter or night freight. Due to the poor conditions in GA, it wasn't difficult for the RFDS to offer a better deal. A stable job with an employer who wouldn't go bust was a big attraction for an older pilot with a family and a mortgage.

These days GA is drying up and new pilots are spending far less time up north and out west before moving on to a better job. Even good employers are having difficulty in attracting and retaining the sort of pilots they want, the bad ones who previously got away with paying below the award just get laughed at.

The pool that the RFDS previously looked to recruit from has shrunk, they aren't competing with third level operators for pilots now and need to improve the package.

[KRUSTY 34]

Good question. It certainly sounds like management / accountant speak.

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

[harrryw]

I wonder if when the wizz wheel was introduced people decried its use as only by those who could not handle a little real arithmetic and hence were not as good in the arcane art of piloting an infernal device from one place to another.

[sdielectrical]

The doctors are pretty good at curing pilots of their aviation sickness. Would recommend it.

[rcoight]

The doctors are pretty good at curing pilots of their aviation sickness. Would recommend it.

What is that supposed to mean?

[sdielectrical]

What is that supposed to mean?
A year working for the RFDS was a good experience, but it changed me and by the end of it I no longer had any desire to fly commercially ever again. I went back to my old job (non aviation) and now I have a much better life and so many more prospects and opportunities. I no longer have to deal with all the negative things about commercial aviation in Australia and I no longer have to worry about putting food on the table and being able to leave something for my kids.

Only 9 months have passed but I will never look back. I have no class 1, no IPC, no ASIC. Things couldn't be better.

The RFDS has a lot of problems but they are their problems, not mine. Interestingly, soon after I left 2 more pilots left from the same base. They both went back to their old jobs.

"The best job in GA" , well maybe. That is for the individual to decide.

A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction)

[Sceva]

A year working for the RFDS was a good experience, but it changed me and by the end of it I no longer had any desire to fly commercially ever again. I went back to my old job (non aviation) and now I have a much better life and so many more prospects and opportunities. I no longer have to deal with all the negative things about commercial aviation in Australia and I no longer have to worry about putting food on the table and being able to leave something for my kids.

Only 9 months have passed but I will never look back. I have no class 1, no IPC, no ASIC. Things couldn't be better.

The RFDS has a lot of problems but they are their problems, not mine. Interestingly, soon after I left 2 more pilots left from the same base. They both went back to their old jobs.

"The best job in GA" , well maybe. That is for the individual to decide.

A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction)

So, is this sentiment still accurate then?

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/611460-rfds-central.html?highlight=RFDS+central

[kingRB]

A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction)

yet here you are, on a pilots forum.

[KRviator]

yet here you are, on a pilots forum.So am I - after not having been paid to fly since 2004. What's your point? His opinion and commentary are just as valid as someone still earning a crust flying.

[SCPL_1988]

Hi, I've been overseas for a while and returning to Aus in the near future.
I would appreciate any direction on the RFDS interview.

[sdielectrical]

Hi Everyone,

My post recently was one of a general experience in aviation but I would like to clarify now that I have had many jobs and the 1 year I worked for the RFDS South Eastern Section was the worst job I have had in my life. I have been fortunate to work for some fantastic individuals who have helped me progress in the industry and trusted me with their machines, their livelihoods and their reputations. Many of these jobs I have had have been very low paid financially. The RFDS job was a higher paying job, but I paid a much higher price with the way I was treated. When I compare back to the early days there is no comparison for me. Chalk and Cheese. If something ever happened to me one day whilst I was on the clock for the RFDS I know just how shafted I would be. It is not a comfortable situation to be in.

After 6 months in the job I told them to get stuffed and gave them 6 months notice. They left me alone for 6 months and I walked out the door on the last day my instrument rating was valid.

It is a small industry and mates look after each other.

Don't go and work for these clowns.

I used to donate money to the RFDS. I could not bring myself to do that anymore.

Very disappointing.

You have been warned. If anyone would like information please PM me.

I am not on here very often so please be patient with replies

Cheers

[Towering Q]

moving to places like Meekatharra and Kalgoorlie etc to fly single engine turbine with the experience that RFDS are chasing is becoming harder to justify. Most guys with that time have already done the country stint and it would be a backward step career wise. HR types and insurance companies are still all about ME time. Jets aren’t for everyone but living in those towns isn’t for many either

I don't think it's realistic to compare Kalgoorlie with Meekatharra.

Meekatharra, population just over 1000, high crime rate, 2 pubs, 1 supermarket. Not much to do, and a long drive to Geraldton or Perth to get to the coast.

Kalgoorlie, population over 30 000, plenty of places to eat out, good sporting facilities, 4 hours from Esperance, 6 from Perth. It's basically an inland city, without all the traffic and hassles of Perth.
I lived in Kal for 15 years and had a great time. The town does go through its ups and downs, according to the mining cycle, but it's still a great place to live. Oh, and don't believe all that BS on Kalgoorlie Cops!

In Westops, Kal was usually the second favourite base, after JT. Broome has probably secured that spot now.

[morno]

Hi Everyone,

My post recently was one of a general experience in aviation but I would like to clarify now that I have had many jobs and the 1 year I worked for the RFDS South Eastern Section was the worst job I have had in my life. I have been fortunate to work for some fantastic individuals who have helped me progress in the industry and trusted me with their machines, their livelihoods and their reputations. Many of these jobs I have had have been very low paid financially. The RFDS job was a higher paying job, but I paid a much higher price with the way I was treated. When I compare back to the early days there is no comparison for me. Chalk and Cheese. If something ever happened to me one day whilst I was on the clock for the RFDS I know just how shafted I would be. It is not a comfortable situation to be in.

After 6 months in the job I told them to get stuffed and gave them 6 months notice. They left me alone for 6 months and I walked out the door on the last day my instrument rating was valid.

It is a small industry and mates look after each other.

Don't go and work for these clowns.

I used to donate money to the RFDS. I could not bring myself to do that anymore.

Very disappointing.

You have been warned. If anyone would like information please PM me.

I am not on here very often so please be patient with replies

Cheers

Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....?

[machtuk]

Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....?

I have to agree with you there Morno, I've got a few mates that have been thru the SE section of the RFDS, best job they ever had they always mention so something doesn't add up with that one post?

[The Butcher's Dog]

Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....?
Has to be, that's a very short length of tenure for that kind of job. Not for everyone I guess..............

[morno]

Has to be, that's a very short length of tenure for that kind of job. Not for everyone I guess..............

Yeah it isn’t for everyone, definitely true. But the comments from the author suggests that wasn’t the problem.

[megle2]

Snake bite brings up Careflight NT pilot shortage comment

​​​​​​https://www.katherinetimes.com.au/story/6474230/station-hand-with-snake-bite-waits-through-the-night-because-of-landing-strip-red-tape/?cs=1459

[deja vu]

Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....?
Ok, lets get back to the basic thread.
I ask you WHY do the RFDS allegedly have a problem employing and then retaining pilots for their operation? 130 or so earlier posters have gone back and forth on this topic, most of whom probably have no idea of what it's like to work for the RFDS TODAY.

Then a fairly recent past-employee posts about the experience and you and a couple of others are happy to suggest that there is something relevant he/she is not telling us. I would have thought that the post in question makes it clear that there was a personality clash, but you want to imply there was something more sinister at play. After all, who wouldn't want to work for the RFDS because "a few mates reckon it was the best job they ever had", really, when was that and how irrelevant is that?
There is also a current employee posting, trying to tell us of how it is TODAY, mostly in negative terms, but no he/she is considered a malcontent who "wants it all"

If you know something, I for one would like to hear about it.

[morno]

Déjà Vu,
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.

What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?

I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.

However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.

Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.

[machtuk]

Déjà Vu,
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.

What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?

I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.

However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.

Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.


well said Morno -:)

[Alice Kiwican]

Déjà Vu,
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.

What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?

I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.

However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.

Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.
Yes what he said 👍😀

[deja vu]

Yes what he said 👍😀
Yeah, I don't know what he said but I agree with it!

[Stationair8]

Must have had a bad experience with a flight nurse!

[glekichi]

So much back and forth on this debate and so much right on both sides.

As a pilot that's done both... I'll err on the side of saying the RFDS job is slightly less technically demanding.
(Perhaps just because you're left to do things your own way within the realm of SOPs)
The skills required, whilst very specialised, aren't beyond most pilots. Its just about exposure.
Conversely, airline ops aren't beyond most RFDS pilots or those of other backgrounds.

You don't go into the RFDS as an expert in the field. You learn as you go, just like anywhere else.

Retention though. This is key.

They need to pay somewhere between airline FO and airline Captain, which currently doesn't seem to be the case.

I find airline duties more demanding, the flying more demanding, etc., but we get a lot more days off and better pay to compensate.
The RFDS was more emotionally demanding, without a doubt. But also very, very rewarding.

But, the level of responsibility.

Id go back to the RFDS any day, but the pay cut is unswallowable, even as an airline FO.

[dontgive2FACs]

I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person.

Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).

With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.

By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).

An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.

Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...

I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.

[deja vu]

I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person.

Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).

With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.

By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).

An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.

Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...

I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.
Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.

The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.

So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.

[Curiousfact]

Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.

The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.

So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.

Kind of curious, what is the rough number for a current rfd pilot salary, with its corresponding base and experience level? Goggling around, I found glassdoor mentioned around 92k average but they dont really specify location/experience.

[deja vu]

Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.

The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.

So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.

Standby for the foreign pilot card for the good old Rufdus, all becomes clear now.

[jnvivier]

AS a train driver I can endorse your philosophy. I gave up flying for a career 13 years ago and have never looked back. Suburban guys, particularly in Brisbane and Melbourne are quite well paid notwithstanding the roster.

Freight drivers - depending on company and depot - can earn well over $140K and if you go to one of the Pilbara operators you can take home north of $200K easily, particularly if you are employed as a residential driver there, though FIFO employees are on much less. I now work a 2 week on, 4 week off roster and gross around $110K but that was my choice to go part-time. On a 2 on, 2 off FIFO roster, that was around $165K give or take, though a good mate has just left for another company and is on $210K as a casual Driver.

We still have Cat1 medicals to comply with, though that is essentially the equivalent of an aviation Class 1, with a few things omitted, and I know of quite a few guys who have struggled to pass that with the more stringent criteria imposed recently, mostly stress testing or sleep related. To earn the sort of coin though, you are up at all hours, can have your shift changed at the drop of a hat +2 hours or -4 hours, many depots operate "blank line" or "pencil" rosters, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't find out what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today, though the Suburban drivers have a fixed roster and can swap jobs/days with other volunteers to suit their own needs.

Knowing what I know now would I ever go back to flying as a career? RFDS, perhaps, but I don't have the experience to qualify, but beyond that, not a bloody chance... I fly for fun now, when I want, where I want and I don't have to deal with security going to work every shift...:mad:

How did you get started with Freight driving? Asking for a friend...

[KRviator]

How did you get started with Freight driving? Asking for a friend...The easiest way is to look on Seek using the keyword "Locomotive" (https://www.seek.com.au/locomotive-jobs?page=2&sortmode=ListedDate). Entry-level drivers jobs are usually titled "Trainee Locomotive Driver" or occasionally "Trainee Train Driver", but using the more general Locomotive means you'll catch qualified jobs as well and can tweak your resume to show what you'll eventually be doing. IF you're in Auckland, TransDev is Currently advertising for Trainee's (https://www.seek.co.nz/job/40667651?type=standout#searchRequestToken=4104a661-489f-4997-90b8-ac42e1c80ec6) for their 2020 schools but I think they're the suburban trains. If you do come across one that you'll apply for, sell your mechanical aptitude, understanding of physics & maths - inertia/gearing/levers etc, ability to work as part of a team, but also independently as needed, a good communicator to liase with Train Control & Signallers, etc.

Off the top of my head, once you've done your training in the classroom and are qualified to go out as a Driver's Assistant/Fireman/Observer/Second Person, you should be on around $60K, depending on the company. Classroom training will be around 3-4 weeks depending on company and another week or two to qualify as a DA. Qualified driver's, depending on company and depot, will be on between $110-190K. To get qualified as a Driver, from off the street, will take 12-24 months depending on company needs. The blokes that do the "relay working" (sleeping in a crew car as the train travels with the 2nd crew on the loco) out of Adelaide to Perth & Darwin are at the upper end of that salary range. Queensland Coal Driver's around the middle and general freight are in the bottom third or so - but overtime can boost that significantly. Time spent away from home adds up too with various allowances.

A word of warning: There is shiftwork, then there is railway shiftwork. It isn't "Oh, I've got 0400's all next week". Trains run early, late or are cancelled altogether. Fatigue can be a huge factor depending how far you have to drive for work and if you don't make an conscious effort to keep fit, you will find yourself struggling to pass the medicals as you age, it is a very sedentary job. That being said, I've been doing it for 14 years and I wouldn't do anything else - flying included.

[TinFoilhat2]

Are you able to fly for an airline like Cobham for example or QLink and do part time flying for the RFDS as well? If so what would a part time RFDS pilot be paid approximately?

[Climb150]

Are you able to fly for an airline like Cobham for example or QLink and do part time flying for the RFDS as well? If so what would a part time RFDS pilot be paid approximately?
So you go around the Alliance thread beating your chest and then come here asking a question that proves you don't have even a CPL.

Even if someone is on leave without pay, I highly doubt RFDS would hire them for they will only disappear when things improve. If they were a regular line pilot absolutely not.
Got to the backyard and play while the grown ups talk.

[Al Fentanyl]

Do not know where you folks are getting your info but here is the actual RFDS Qld numbers

Aeromedical Pilot: Base Rate effective 1 July 2018 $119,946.52

increases per year x WPI to and including 2021

Retention Tiers - In addition to the Role Base Rate applicable to the Employee's classification, the Employee will receive the Retention Loading for completion of 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 years' Continuous Service with the Employer, as set out in the table below:
2 years 4%
4 years 11%
6 years 12%
8 years 13%
10 years 14%

Additional allowances for Remote Area $10k gratuity, ~$10k accommodation, Refuelling allowance ca $900, LoL $2K, and vehicle allowances. Superannuation at 12.5%, 6 weeks annual leave, personal leave, study leave, URTI leave, annual medical expenses, Salary Packaging to GUV $30K, FRMS approved roster so basically 2 days, 1-2 nights, Grey day and 4 days off.

Far above the Award and actually pretty good on any terms of comparison.

[Skippy69]

To navigate toward the Thread title a little, I'm not sure if they're indeed feeling the pinch, no I've not got the experience of a 20 year captain or even a 10 year Captain, but I meet all their requirements and some and still never received any sort of response.

The RFDS in my eyes has always been the pinnacle of flying. I delved very lightly in the airline world but most of my time is GA and I've heard of them interviewing Instructors with no charter background- which I find both infuriating and sad- hopefully not true.

They've recently just put up a relieving pilots add based in WA and hopefully their, "pilot Shortage" will figure it's self out.

Stay safe and happy guys!

[Stan dard]

Is there any updates about the current conditions at RFDS QLD? Surely they are hemorrhaging pilots like most operators.

[OutbackDan]

Not good. 4 pilots have resigned for the airlines in the last couple of weeks. Pilot cohort down 25% across the state with more hurt coming.

[Prattnwho]

Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!

Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?

Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.

[evilducky]

Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!

Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?

Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.

Can't speak to QLD, but across western and central.

Western Ops definitely the better of the PC12 sections. Stronger EBA, better pay, more comprehensive service, all NG fleet (central still with some classics). Some really good people at the top and in training and checking. Not perfect but as solid as it gets in GA. Semi-closed tender for their contracts with the state government - they don't have Pelair breathing down their neck like Victorian and South Eastern sections had/still have. Western also does almost all the medical component in house - doctors/nurses/ops team. Makes for a pretty good atmosphere and tight teams on the bases.

Regional base to start, expect Meeka, Hedland or Kal. Each base has its own shortcomings. Broome in 1-2 years. Jandakot in 2-3 years. Shorter if you're lucky, some people landing Jandakot within a year. Rosters can be hard when the bases are understaffed, but you'll do 18-20 shifts in 28 days, nearly all standby from home. Commonly morning/morning/afternoon/afternoon/night/night/grey day/ then RDO x 3. 700ish hours per year in the logbook, the FRMS caps you at 750. Hours are harder than the numbers make it sound, most guys are cooked at 750. Big duty days after decent standby periods, and lots of back of the clock.

PC24 within 3-4 years if you really want it, are competent and willing to go back to Broome. Seems like they want to give it to the younger and keener players, there's a little bit of seniority but just being there for a while doesn't guarentee you anything. 2 year bond. PC24 shifts/rosters a bit rough - lots of Broome - Perth return at unsociable hours. Ignore what the propaganda from Central section tells you about the PC24 - in WA it is a sealed surfaces only machine.

Westops will take you with 1500 of the right hours (or even slightly less). IFR, night, turbine, Part 135 - if you tick these boxes and are good with people you'll get a good look in. The job really can't be done with much less than 1500 hours and a decent footing on IFR - the section is set up so every base/crew does aeromed including high acuity primaries. I think my second or third callout after check to line was a nasty medevac in **** conditions, I had barely more than 1500 hours and was ****ting bricks even after 80 hours of line supervision prior to check. I remember getting told in week one that one in three hires don't get through to line check - saw plenty of people scrubbed for not cutting the mustard.

Great memories though. If you've been offered Westops I'd say go for it, you won't regret it.

[Prattnwho]

evilducky

Cheers for the great answer mate. Appreciate your insight.

[umop apisdn]

Can't speak to QLD, but across western and central.

Western Ops definitely the better of the PC12 sections. Stronger EBA, better pay, more comprehensive service, all NG fleet (central still with some classics). Some really good people at the top and in training and checking. Not perfect but as solid as it gets in GA. Semi-closed tender for their contracts with the state government - they don't have Pelair breathing down their neck like Victorian and South Eastern sections had/still have. Western also does almost all the medical component in house - doctors/nurses/ops team. Makes for a pretty good atmosphere and tight teams on the bases.

Regional base to start, expect Meeka, Hedland or Kal. Each base has its own shortcomings. Broome in 1-2 years. Jandakot in 2-3 years. Shorter if you're lucky, some people landing Jandakot within a year. Rosters can be hard when the bases are understaffed, but you'll do 18-20 shifts in 28 days, nearly all standby from home. Commonly morning/morning/afternoon/afternoon/night/night/grey day/ then RDO x 3. 700ish hours per year in the logbook, the FRMS caps you at 750. Hours are harder than the numbers make it sound, most guys are cooked at 750. Big duty days after decent standby periods, and lots of back of the clock.

PC24 within 3-4 years if you really want it, are competent and willing to go back to Broome. Seems like they want to give it to the younger and keener players, there's a little bit of seniority but just being there for a while doesn't guarentee you anything. 2 year bond. PC24 shifts/rosters a bit rough - lots of Broome - Perth return at unsociable hours. Ignore what the propaganda from Central section tells you about the PC24 - in WA it is a sealed surfaces only machine.

Westops will take you with 1500 of the right hours (or even slightly less). IFR, night, turbine, Part 135 - if you tick these boxes and are good with people you'll get a good look in. The job really can't be done with much less than 1500 hours and a decent footing on IFR - the section is set up so every base/crew does aeromed including high acuity primaries. I think my second or third callout after check to line was a nasty medevac in **** conditions, I had barely more than 1500 hours and was ****ting bricks even after 80 hours of line supervision prior to check. I remember getting told in week one that one in three hires don't get through to line check - saw plenty of people scrubbed for not cutting the mustard.

Great memories though. If you've been offered Westops I'd say go for it, you won't regret it.

Really great insights and a good read. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

[Xeptu]

I did 8 years in Aeromed in the early years. I still have good memories of it, it's probably the only job I had where I felt truly needed and appreciated. Landing on the Highway was fun and flare paths using the old kero pot flares, don't suppose they do any of that these days. No GPS back then and not all our aircraft had VLF Omega. You learn what weather flying is. I understand now when other pilots look at me funny when I talk about how to negotiate thunderstorm cells, both cold stream and tropical.

[compressor stall]

Been a while for me now, but yes, landing by a couple of faint kero flares and some car headlights in the outback on a visual circuit on a blackhole night sure focussed the attention, and the genuine "thank god you're here" response from the station owner/publican etc cannot be described.

I was somewhat indifferent to 90% of inter hospital transfers through, being somewhat routine. But the aforementioned landings made up for it and kept you on a high for a while.

[Xeptu]

Oh Yeah same same. You know throughout my Airline years I always thought that the other pilots knew what I know. It was only 10 years ago in my own private operation with 2 retired Airline pilots like myself that they don't. It seems our group is a very small group indeed.

[pithblot]

I'm happy to have been a part of it too, and the good certainally outweighed the bad - especially with the benefit of hindsight. Really did enjoy the flying, camaraderie and sense of being a part of something worthwhile. Agree with you CS that “the genuine "thank god you're here" response from the station owner/publican etc cannot be described“. There are many opportunities to thank God in aeromed.

[evilducky]

I was somewhat indifferent to 90% of inter hospital transfers through, being somewhat routine.

This probably needs to be stressed too. You'll probably only do a handful of super high stakes retreivals a year where you're involved in outright saving a life, the rest will be low acuity transfers, repat flights or clinics. For the most part you're just making up for the absolute lack of specialist care in WA other than down south, Gero, Hedland and Broome.

Missed your dialysis appointment during the day and now in renal failure, and its a Friday night with no local services until Monday? RFDS to Perth. Non-specific pain in the gut but you're in a super remote community? RFDS to Broome (absconded on arrival).

Don't even dream about a road landing or limited flare path, there are guys who've been there 15 years and have never done either outside of training. Just too many good mining strips around and the medical threshold required to risk a AU$10mil asset on something other than an actual airstrip is very, very high.

[MalcolmReynolds]

This probably needs to be stressed too. You'll probably only do a handful of super high stakes retreivals a year where you're involved in outright saving a life, the rest will be low acuity transfers, repat flights or clinics. For the most part you're just making up for the absolute lack of specialist care in WA other than down south, Gero, Hedland and Broome.

Missed your dialysis appointment during the day and now in renal failure, and its a Friday night with no local services until Monday? RFDS to Perth. Non-specific pain in the gut but you're in a super remote community? RFDS to Broome (absconded on arrival).

Don't even dream about a road landing or limited flare path, there are guys who've been there 15 years and have never done either outside of training. Just too many good mining strips around and the medical threshold required to risk a AU$10mil asset on something other than an actual airstrip is very, very high.



During my line training on the PC12NG I had to land at Meekatharra with two vehicles and two portable lights in 600m at night. It was after a 10 hour, four sector duty and the ground crews working on the runway lights had cut the wrong cable. So we had two vehicles at the threshold and two lamps at the far end. Training Captain made me land the buggar. Was fine but you never know what might happen! 😲

[Xeptu]

During my line training on the PC12NG I had to land at Meekatharra with two vehicles and two portable lights in 600m at night. It was after a 10 hour, four sector duty and the ground crews working on the runway lights had cut the wrong cable. So we had two vehicles at the threshold and two lamps at the far end. Training Captain made me land the buggar. Was fine but you never know what might happen! 😲

On a big sealed runway with GPS approach, I can't imagine that's even a serious challenge, lol I can hardly wait for compressor stalls grinning reaction.

[morno]

QLD Section still do jam tin/dunny role flare landings onto property strips, but really only out of Mount Isa and Charleville bases, occasionally Cairns as well.

The only road landings in Qld are onto the purpose built road strips. Still good fun though, seeing all that traffic held up while you come in and do your thing then depart.

It’s genuinely a fantastic job and as others have said, you’re very appreciated by those who rely on the service. Yes there’s some pretty ordinary moments medically wise, some that still haunt me to this day. But if you’ve got any sort of tolerance for seeing a bit of blood and suffering, then you walk away with a great sense of satisfaction.

I can’t speak much about requirements to get into Qld these days, they appear to have changed so much because of the lack of applicants compared to years gone by. What I do hear though is where they might have 1 fail to qualify over a 5 year period, they’re now getting 1 every 6 months or so :bored:. And I wouldn’t put that down to bad training, I’d simply put that down to them not being able to attract the right people.

[OutbackDan]

I can only speak for QLD section and agree with Morno.

The remote bases (Mt Isa and Charleville) certainly do the best mix of flying, combining the 'good ol' station flare landings along with plenty of trips into the tertiary Hospitals closer to the coast. Allowances at remote bases also means you will also earn 25-30k more then the coastal bases. Rosters are good, 14 shifts in 28 days, usually 4 on, 4 off. Half day shifts, half night and home pretty much every night unless there's an AOG or occasionally a priority task means you'll end up away from base. Coastal bases do the fairly mundane Hospital to Hospital transfers which is not overly exciting. Expect much more challenging and exciting taskings out of Charleville/Isa/Cairns.

FRMS is 700 flying hours a year. Flying hours vary between bases, Expect to fly between 400-600 hours a year, Townsville, Rocky and lately Charleville have been hitting 600 and over. If you fly over 600 you will earn an extra $260 for every hour over 600 paid annually. New Aeromed pilots start on around $135,000, Clinic pilots about $105,000. Both those figures to change shortly as a new EBA is up for vote very soon.

Minimums are always advertised as having 4000 hours total, however Aeromed pilots are getting in with 2500 or so. The Remote area mentoring program (RAMP) pilots have been getting in with around the 1500 total hour mark.

Aeromed is not everyone's cup of tea. It's busy, tiring, sometimes emotional and sometimes traumatic. Taskings can sometimes do your head in and waiting hours for an ambulance to come collect you patient can be beyond frustrating. But that odd job that comes in where you truly make a difference makes up for it. The highs certainly outweigh the lows though and I loved my time at RFDS and reflect very fondly on some of the jobs I was part of and relationships I made.

[nomess]

So what type of person are they looking for? And what are they getting?

I know they had been quite picky historically. Was always one of the most competitive jobs to grab. Now, why bother when one can get a A320 or 737 job with only flying a Cessna Caravan.

The ‘career RFDS’ pilot is probably non existent these days.

[MalcolmReynolds]

On a big sealed runway with GPS approach, I can't imagine that's even a serious challenge, lol I can hardly wait for compressor stalls grinning reaction.

Xeptu, Well at the time it was for me as I was dog tired. Maybe you ( Chuck Yeager) are superhuman but whatever dude!

[Towering Q]

The ‘career RFDS’ pilot is probably non existent these days.

Numbers 1 to 20 on the Westops seniority list probably qualify as "career RFDS pilots".:ok:
​​​​​​​

[Xeptu]

Xeptu, Well at the time it was for me as I was dog tired. Maybe you ( Chuck Yeager) are superhuman but whatever dude!

I didn't mean it as a degrade mate. I was taking the piss. OH! the Luxury. I do remember being on the nod at 5am after ten hours.