Easyjet FO anxiety attack

[Raph737]

Any thoughts? I wonder what was the underlying issues that caused this FO to "freak out"...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/easyjet-pilot-suffers-mid-air-anxiety-attack-during-flight-with-148-passengers/ar-AAHc6jY?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=mailsignout

[73qanda]

I’ll hazard a guess.......... a stress load that he or she was unable to manage.

[Chazlington]

Cue the debate about whether Cadets flying Airbuses straight out of flight school is good/safe.

[flyfan]

Could happen to everybody, and nobody was hurt. Help him to get his confidence back and that‘s it, no reason for a huge media story there. We‘re all human, people...there’s nothing to see, carry on.

[cappt]

Should probably consider a different career.

[Duchess_Driver]

Cue the debate about whether Cadets flying Airbuses straight out of flight school is good/safe



Hardly fresh out of nappies... probably about 450hrs post training. Like everything in life, coming out of integrated schools you get some excellent students, most average and some poor.

Slightly surprised that it was his first experience of a “late go-around”. Should have done plenty of them in school...

When did Easy retire their last 73?

[AviatorDave]

Cue the debate about whether Cadets flying Airbuses straight out of flight school is good/safe.

Why that? Most of them, especially at easyJet, due so quite successfully and safely.
What happened to this FO could also happen to a most experienced captain, depending on personal circumstances.

The more interesting part would be to see how this is dealt with (help vs. punishment), but I am somewhat confident that Easy will get this one right.

[blind pew]

Know of a captain who locked himself in the loo whilst the boys decided where they would divert to after FCO and surrounding airfields closed with fog. Only came out after he heard the gear come down.
Poor sod in this case obviously way out of comfort zone..maybe better training the answer or even three crew like the good old days

[ukc_mike]

The more interesting part would be to see how this is dealt with (help vs. punishment), but I am somewhat confident that Easy will get this one right.

From the AAIB report::

Experiencing a panic attack does not necessarily preclude someone from holding an aviation medical but, once known, the condition must be declared and adequately controlled. After support from the operator, his AME and other medical professionals, the co-pilot was assessed as fit to return to flying.

I would post a link to the report (published yesterday), but I don't have enough posts.

[CHfour]

Should probably consider a different career.
An understandable reaction but around 1 in 5 of the general population suffer from anxiety at some time in their life so must have developed coping strategies to prevent anxiety turning into panic. I've had a couple of passengers board my aircraft and then offload themselves as a result of anxiety. If only they could understand that anxiety feeds on itself as the sufferer erroneously believes that they are going to loose control of themselves which seldom happens.

[Capt Fathom]

It may sound tough, but we don’t need pilots who are scared of flying!

[jmmoric]

It may sound tough, but we don’t need pilots who are scared of flying!

He could use training a few go arounds and learn that "firewalling the throttle" is okay, and better than the alternate. Other than that, I definately understand that he could become anxious if not used to turbulence and changing wind conditions during short finals, and low on time as well feeling a need to "show he is up for the task"... 600 vs. 14000 hours is, no matter how nice the guy in the other seat is, still a pressure.

So get him into a cockpit, and let him regain his confidence. If he cannot, that's another matter.

[cattletruck]

So get him into a cockpit, and let him regain his confidence. If he cannot, that's another matter.

I've always been a believer in giving people a second chance, but in my own opinion this is not the time and place. He should have been weeded out earlier (or at least played cards then). Most non-LLC passengers wouldn't expect anything less, but I guess it's just simply another case of you get what you pay for.

[sonicbum]

Other than that, I definately understand that he could become anxious if not used to turbulence and changing wind conditions during short finals, and low on time as well feeling a need to "show he is up for the task"... 600 vs. 14000 hours is, no matter how nice the guy in the other seat is, still a pressure.

So get him into a cockpit, and let him regain his confidence. If he cannot, that's another matter.

While wishing our colleague a quick recovery and a bright career, I have to disagree with the above, as all those sensations should have been experienced during initial pilot training.
It is ok to put 250 hours guys on the RHS of an airliner IF there is enough "squeezing" during flight training to minimise any kind of unwanted outcome with paying customers onboard.
Anyway, our colleague might be reading us and here nobody is perfect, so again hope he will make it to retirement as a pilot but there are issues that need to be addressed -IMHO- with "modern" flight training.

[Banana Joe]

I had an event during my very very early career (now I am in the early phase, so there you go), less than 100 hours on type, a sudden windshift during the flare that made me lose 15 knots of airspeed. A go around was made by myself but some damage had been done. No biggie, the aircraft flew just fine. Subsequent successful landing, on the same runway, done by myself. I came out clean with the higher ups and said what I might have done wrong during that phase. I was supposed to receive some extra training, but at no time was my job in jeopardy. Training quickly cancelled after the internal safety report confirmed my piloting technique, according to the book, was correct and we had an actual windshear with no warnings. I saved the day with the go around, indeed.

Ok, I do not suffer from anxiety and this event did not affect me. Everybody is different, but I would hope the lad gets a second chance, with the support required.

And I bet this lad had less than 100 hours on a real airplane before getting to fly an A320. He must be an MPL product.

[jmmoric]

While wishing our colleague a quick recovery and a bright career, I have to disagree with the above, as all those sensations should have been experienced during initial pilot training.
It is ok to put 250 hours guys on the RHS of an airliner IF there is enough "squeezing" during flight training to minimise any kind of unwanted outcome with paying customers onboard.
Anyway, our colleague might be reading us and here nobody is perfect, so again hope he will make it to retirement as a pilot but there are issues that need to be addressed -IMHO- with "modern" flight training.

A Piper or Cessna on a windy, gusty, turbulent day and cross wind landings will always help the confidence :)

But people can definately go through many hours before encountering something "new" or "interresting"... It's these new and interresting things that makes you learn.

[Banana Joe]

If the person involved is confirmed to be a MPL graduate, I am curious to know the actual amount of hours he had on SEP before progressing his training in the simulator. And it would be also interesting to know what wind limits were imposed for his training on during the initial phase. I heard of schools that would not let you fly with wind reported more than 10 kts.

Simulators, as good as they might be, are not good at replicating variable wind conditions.

[Meester proach]

I've always been a believer in giving people a second chance, but in my own opinion this is not the time and place. He should have been weeded out earlier (or at least played cards then). Most non-LLC passengers wouldn't expect anything less, but I guess it's just simply another case of you get what you pay for.


jeez, it’s not about a second chance the guy/ gal had a psychological problem.
even with the best training 600 hrs will seem at times not a lot when you are dealing with the European weather.

And don’t start with the 250 hrs nonsense, BA have been doing it for years successfully .

the outcome is correct - AME is satisfied so they are back online .

[lomapaseo]

Don't throw away the man

Help him manage. I believe more than a few of us have had panics attacks in life. Once addressed they are safer than the guy who never had one and great support for the next guy.

In the end I would prefer flying with a pilot who has had one and experienced coming out of it.

[bulldog89]

What if the next time the CPT is incapacitated for any reason? Is his stress level going to be lower than this time? I don't think so. Will A flight attendant land the plane? Again. I don't think so.

This is not about the total amount of hours of anything like that. I think pretty much everyone had his "oh ****" moment, even during training, but we didn't freeze and we just kept flying the aircraft. As pilots there is a small number of things we're not allowed to do, and one of these is for sure freezing while doing our job.

I truly hope he fully recovered from his condition, otherwise I'd consider him as an additional threat to safety.

[Reverserbucket]

Interesting comment about restricting training with W/V >10kts as I have witnessed this myself, although usually only for solo flight. I have been aware of instructors who insist on landing the aircraft themselves when x-wind component or anything other than flat calm conditions prevail though as well. A lot of basic training (well, up to 150 hours on an integrated course these days) is conducted far from home in fairly benign conditions, which is after all, the reason the training was sent there in the first place, and as a consequence, trainees get very little by way of experience or decision making due to weather. Although missed approach procedures are still taught, again in my experience the opportunity to practice - say, at the end of a sortie on very short-final leading to a circuit to land, is not taken often. The demands on making each sortie fit the prescribed lesson length, ATC expectations and busy circuit environments often make it restrictive to do so.

I know of a student who was chopped pre-solo due to suffering panic attacks during the stall entry, every time; parents threatened legal action and was readmitted on condition that training continued with an instructor with a better appreciation of phycological considerations...i.e. don't go near the stall as it upsets the student. Another was found to be taking Diazepam...but only before solo exercises...because they were the 'most stressful'. These are integrated ATPL students on EASA approved courses at big ATO's, no doubt like the F/O in the AAIB report.

[parkfell]

GIf the person involved is confirmed to be a MPL graduate, I am curious to know the actual amount of hours he had on SEP before progressing his training in the simulator. And it would be also interesting to know what wind limits were imposed for his training on during the initial phase. I heard of schools that would not let you fly with wind reported more than 10 kts.

Simulators, as good as they might be, are not good at replicating variable wind conditions.

According to the AAIB the Co-pilot’s flying experience was 686 hours (of which 512 were on type).
Assuming ‘flying experience’ means airborne time then 174 hours accrue?

Reversebucket makes a very valid point about the lack of exposure to less than benign conditions.

Banana Joe makes comment about simulators. I would suggest that some extremely challenging conditions (pre programmed nasties) can be created in the simulator. Next time you are in the box for a LPC/OPC ask the TRE to “spice up your life” for 10 minutes. Watch the smile in response to your request.

There has been some speculation, as the AAIB narrative is a fairly sanitised report. There is no clue as to the characteristics of the two pilots. Psychometric testing such as ‘16PF’ would reveal detail information.
What is for certain is that the departure of the FO from the flightdeck would have come as a surprise, if not a shock to the Captain. I cannot recall such an event in the recent past?

It most certainly will have concentrated the minds of management, and those who deliver CRM.

An additional item to be considered in the Threat & Error Management process.

[Reverserbucket]

Mr Guest v Flybe Ltd (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5bcdb277ed915d4349d7c03c/Mr_Guest_v_Flybe_Ltd_-_1301761.2017_judgment_Final.pdf)

Not recorded whether he left the flightdeck but interesting related reading.

[Water pilot]

What is the approach to sim training landing in adverse weather conditions? On a scale from 0 ( until the student is able to successfully pass one or two challenges) to 10 (not only can the student do it in their sleep, they are doing it in their sleep because everybody involved is so bored with the exercise) where is the cut off?

[Meikleour]

This incident should be a wake up call to the industry regarding its setting of standards and screening.

In the AAIB report the pilot said that the unexpected go-around from a low height he found frightening and that he had never experienced a go-around in the aeroplane before.

That statement I found most disturbing on two levels. Had he really never done a go-around even during his basic training and why did he find a normal all engine go-around frightening? Likewise, if an unexpected event is likely to trigger a "panic attack" event then perhaps this individual is not suited to this job? I say this because the whole point of training is to enable the individual to function under a certain amount of stress.

Before I am attacked for not understanding mental issues perhaps the industry needs to rethink whether or not this career should be pursued by anyone regardless of aptitude or temperament.

[parkfell]

Mr Guest v Flybe Ltd (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5bcdb277ed915d4349d7c03c/Mr_Guest_v_Flybe_Ltd_-_1301761.2017_judgment_Final.pdf)

Not recorded whether he left the flightdeck but interesting related reading.

I have now read all thirty pages. Family pressures, young family played its part. You just wonder if ‘PF16’ (psychometric test) or something similar, had been conducted prior to employment whether any area of concern would have been revealed??

Shortened version concerning employment dismissal ~ Start at paragraph 123 regarding the unfairness for dismissal section / judgement.

What this demonstrates is the need for the employer to play it with an absolute straight bat. (Watching just now the Ashes test match from the Oval ! ). Any chinks in the armour will open up a claim of “unfair dismissal” as it did in this case.

[sonicbum]

Before I am attacked for not understanding mental issues perhaps the industry needs to rethink whether or not this career should be pursued by anyone regardless of aptitude or temperament.

Very good points, especially this very last one. Basic flight training and subsequently airline training must ensure that a candidate is suitable for the aviation environment by using all the available training methods not only to transfer the knowledge to the trainee but also to test his capability to cope with stress and unexpected changes, in short term his resilience.
For a pilot, resilience is one of the most important if not the most important trait of personality as each and every time we close the doors and start the engines we have no idea what is going to happen as in real life there is unfortunately no script like in the sim.
Exposing the trainee to a variable level of stress during his progression till reaching the "breaking point" is beneficial for everybody, as it is the best possible "snapshot" You can take of somebody aside from any psychometrical and psycho aptitude tests. The idea of seeing the trainee like a newborn baby that needs to be spoon-fed till he gets to the cockpit of an airliner is probably beneficial to the training organisation that aims to train as many pilots as possible but not to the trainee himself that has no idea of how and when he is going to raise his white flag and give up.
In my airline we have been training pilots in house for the past 50 years from 0 and we have always tried to build confidence in our trainees by showing them where, according to their stage of progression, they would reach their point of no return. Normally 90% of them would take it as a challenge to set the bar higher and think "I'll show You next time You &*^@#" and the remaining part would take it personally and stop progressing, despite all the efforts from the instructors to reassure them. Unfortunately this is how You keep screening.

[Banana Joe]

Banana Joe makes comment about simulators. I would suggest that some extremely challenging conditions (pre programmed nasties) can be created in the simulator. Next time you are in the box for a LPC/OPC ask the TRE to “spice up your life” for 10 minutes. Watch the smile in response to your request.


Will try next month.

[FLCH]

Are new applicants given a psychological test prior to employment as someone asked earlier, it could have sent up a potential red flag.

Or is it against the law to make distinctions as to whether someone is psychologically fit or not ?

[The Range]

And what if on his next flight the captain gets incapacitated?
I wouldn't want to be on that plane.

[Steepclimb]

Bluntly do you want him beside you in an emergency? Remember this wasn't even an emergency just a go around. Not routine but a little stressful. Yet he broke.

What would happen if he found himself in a real emergency?

What clinches it for me is that he left the flight deck. Unforgivable IMHO.

A career change is needed.

[CaptainMongo]

Who hasn’t gotten rattled in a cockpit? Yeah fine, but removing oneself from the cockpit?

That dog don’t hunt.

[Joe le Taxi]

I think I would ask the guy to leave the flight deck if it was a full on anxiety attack, and was proving worse than useless - even potentially dangerous. He may not have had a choice in the matter. I hope he gains confidence.

[HPSOV L]

I’ve known very experienced middle aged pilots (plural) who have developed anxiety. It’s not uncommon after an accumulation of stressful life events such as divorce etc and the trigger is unpredictable. Chances are one of your colleagues has experienced it. The timing of this case was unfortunate but it is treatable.

[anchorhold]

Having ready the AAIB report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d517fb2ed915d7640c1c35c/Airbus_A319-111_G-EZGR_09-19.pdf

This flags up concerns about some of the current training practices and selection in the airline industry.

Anxiety is not new even among experienced pilots both in military and the civilian world. I can think of a highly experienced and respected RAF C130 who after thousands of hours flying and many years of good service had to give up flying. a midair between two RAF Tornados in Scotland, one of the crew had after a long military flying career been suffering from anxiety. Likewise in the civilian world, I recall in the mid eiighties a flight out of BHX, where the copilot completely lost it somewhere over Lyon. I dont think he flew again. The point here is that I think there is a difference between anxiety in a very experienced pilot, who is likely to have managed stress throughout his/her career through flying experience. I myself never really knew how I was going to react to a highly stressful in the early stages of my career. After a few near misses, pan calls and mayday calls, I know how I react under abnormal situations and stress.

This situation in my mind flags up concerns over the so called 'children of magenta', twenty years ago, a co-pilot mostly likely had over 1500 hrs including coping will stress whether that was in the military, or single crew air taxi work in very poor weather. What the report fails to mention is the breakdown of the co-pilots flying experience including hand flying experience. Was the pilot capable at flying for example a C172 in a 17 knot crosswind, could he even fly a light aircraft?. I think we know the pilots going through training now, take very well to flight automation, but there is still a nagging question as to their ability to cope with a situation like Souix City or the A320 into the Hudson River.

I am very dubious about if peer support would have made any difference, and how odd the co-pilot was not aware of it anyway. Then there was the AAIB comments about the communication, why did the captain comment on turbulence, probably because it was forecast or part of the airfield arrival brief. As for the AME signing him off, was this the 'trick cyclist' at Gatwick or a specialist in anxiety, or the local AME, who knows.

While there are many sympathetic comments, I have reservations. On this occasion, the co-pilot was anxious about landing and removed from the flight deck. So what would have happened if the fifty year old captain had been incapicitated coupled with a cross wind?

[Auxtank]

Cue the debate about whether Cadets flying Airbuses straight out of flight school is good/safe.

Yup.
This.

[OldnGrounded]

. . . but there is still a nagging question as to their ability to cope with a situation like Souix City or the A320 into the Hudson River.


With respect, I think questions about pilots' readiness to cope with situations like those apply to, well, to pilots in general. Fortunately, we don't have to learn the answers to real-world tests very often.

[parkfell]

I know of a student who was chopped pre-solo due to suffering panic attacks during the stall entry, every time; parents threatened legal action and was readmitted on condition that training continued with an instructor with a better appreciation of phycological considerations...i.e. don't go near the stall as it upsets the student. Another was found to be taking Diazepam...but only before solo exercises...because they were the 'most stressful'. These are integrated ATPL students on EASA approved courses at big ATO's, no doubt like the F/O in the AAIB report.

It would appear these parents simply didn’t understand just what training was about, and the ATO simply folded under the prospect of m’learned friends being involved. It would have been interesting if this case ever ended up in court as to what arguments the plaintiffs would have made. The prospect of expensive legal action is never appealing.

I however find it remarkable that this ‘little darling’ might have been issued a CPL/IR, and possibly employment in the RHS?

As for the little darling on diazepam...........Class One issue ?

Good news is on the near horizon. Upset recovery training is being introduced later this year by EASA as a mandatory item for all little darlings. A mild sorting out of the ‘sheep from the goats’. That would clearly have made the ATOs training so much easier to explain to the parents.

[slowjet]

We all know that the key to this is to have very rigorous aptitude and selection programs .We have dumbed down education standards. The only really important consideration from Flight schools is how the student will pay. Licencing Authorities do not screen.When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.Even the professionals charged with "training" the unlikely cadets are not acting swiftly enough with the clear no-hopers.

Recalling Officer & Aircrew Selection for the UK military,a five-day selection process was in place aimed, mainly, to predict the likelihood of success or failure on the training course. But the MOD was paying. Civil selection for a place at the BOAC/BEA College of Air Training was a similar affair involving three separate visits to the Selection Board. Very tough aptitude and personality screening was involved. But, the corporation were paying.

One of the best, in my experience, was the initial screening interview for a sponsored course with British United Airways.Interviewer got me very relaxed about one of my fave subjects and then turned a bit nasty, interrupting with ; "ok, enough of that. Tell me, if I covered 60 miles in 18 minutes , what sort of speed would I be doing ?". He was not interested in the answer at all but took careful note of the candidates behaviour in reply. But, BUA were paying.

These sort of incidents will continue until we get back to selecting the right stuff. That will not happen while Mum & Dad pay all fees for dumbed down snowflakes and flightschools seek, only,full classrooms.

[beardy]

We all know that the key to this is to have very rigorous aptitude and selection programs .We have dumbed down education standards. The only really important consideration from Flight schools is how the student will pay. Licencing Authorities do not screen.When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.Even the professionals charged with "training" the unlikely cadets are not acting swiftly enough with the clear no-hopers.

Recalling Officer & Aircrew Selection for the UK military,a five-day selection process was in place aimed, mainly, to predict the likelihood of success or failure on the training course. But the MOD was paying. Civil selection for a place at the BOAC/BEA College of Air Training was a similar affair involving three separate visits to the Selection Board. Very tough aptitude and personality screening was involved. But, the corporation were paying.

One of the best, in my experience, was the initial screening interview for a sponsored course with British United Airways.Interviewer got me very relaxed about one of my fave subjects and then turned a bit nasty, interrupting with ; "ok, enough of that. Tell me, if I covered 60 miles in 18 minutes , what sort of speed would I be doing ?". He was not interested in the answer at all but took careful note of the candidates behaviour in reply. But, BUA were paying.

These sort of incidents will continue until we get back to selecting the right stuff. That will not happen while Mum & Dad pay all fees for dumbed down snowflakes and flightschools seek, only,full classrooms.

Cobblers.

Panic attacks are a form of mental illness that may be triggered by life events. They are not necessarily inherent and could affect anybody.
It's time you and your cohort wised up to mental health.

[parkfell]

Are new applicants given a psychological test prior to employment as someone asked earlier, it could have sent up a potential red flag.

Or is it against the law to make distinctions as to whether someone is psychologically fit or not ?
The Class One medical includes an assessment of your mental state both on initial issue or thereafter.

[parkfell]

Cobblers.

Panic attacks are a form of mental illness that may be triggered by life events. They are not necessarily inherent and could affect anybody.
It's time you and your cohort wised up to mental health.

​​​​​Reverserbucket post at 1650 yesterday concerning Matthew Guest v. Flybe Limited at an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal describes in detail the emotional issues which can occur. Definitely worth a read for those interested in mental health flying issues. Allow yourself two hours.

[CaptainProp]

I've always been a believer in giving people a second chance, but in my own opinion this is not the time and place. He should have been weeded out earlier (or at least played cards then). Most non-LLC passengers wouldn't expect anything less, but I guess it's just simply another case of you get what you pay for.

You mean pilots with probably top 4-5 T&Cs in Europe? easyJet has FOs taking home €6000 / month on the “European” contracts.

CP

[autothrottle]

Huge sympathy to the FO. Been here myself but with the right treatment they will recover and come out the other side. We don’t know the full facts but anxiety is a manifestation of depression, which anyone can suffer, and recover from. Most unlikely that being low houred had anything to do with it, could happen to someone with 10,000 hours if they are ill.

[sonicbum]

Huge sympathy to the FO. Been here myself but with the right treatment they will recover and come out the other side. We don’t know the full facts but anxiety is a manifestation of depression, which anyone can suffer, and recover from. Most unlikely that being low houred had anything to do with it, could happen to someone with 10,000 hours if they are ill.



Very true, but the point is : should it be treated the same way if that happens to a middle aged seasoned aviator that has definitely very few options to change his careers path and a young barely qualified pilot (let alone those in flight schools) that can still turn his life upside down as many times as he likes ? Is it a good decision to be treated for anxiety disorders at the very beginning of a pilot career ? Is it better to leave a life out of the flight deck with no medications or in the flight deck on prescription pills and psychological support for several decades till retirement ?

[Banana Joe]

Age has got nothing to do with it.

[Landflap]

The selection programs that others have referred to aimed, in part, to weed out those candidates who "appeared" to show a higher tendency to stress. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but the results were pretty good. Hamble had a 500 questionnaire followed by interview with a fully qualified Psychologist. Many thought one test was a co-ordination exerrcise. It wasn't. It looked hard at how candidates might re-act once placed in a high stress situation. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but I know who I'd rather be sitting behind ; someone who passed formal selection or someone who falls apart at selection questions, like, "What is a half divided by a half" when asked in a stress environment. Amazing how many go red in the face and bleat out " A quarter!".

[beardy]

The selection programs that others have referred to aimed, in part, to weed out those candidates who "appeared" to show a higher tendency to stress. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but the results were pretty good. Hamble had a 500 questionnaire followed by interview with a fully qualified Psychologist. Many thought one test was a co-ordination exerrcise. It wasn't. It looked hard at how candidates might re-act once placed in a high stress situation. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but I know who I'd rather be sitting behind ; someone who passed formal selection or someone who falls apart at selection questions, like, "What is a half divided by a half" when asked in a stress environment. Amazing how many go red in the face and bleat out " A quarter!".
The archaic belief that future mental health problems and weaknesses can be predicted by the selection processes you advocate has fortunately been consigned to the dustbin of historical bad ideas.

Stress is not the same as this young man's mental health problems.

Last week in Hereford a former hooligan committed suicide. His selection, discipline and training were of little use.
I hope you never have to have recourse to the few resources there are for mental health issues.

[Landflap]

Beardy, there was never an attempt to predict future mental health problems. Those who displayed problems while under stress were weeded out because airline pilots are supposed to be able to handle highly stressful events calmly and efficiently. The young man referred to appears to have had an "event" when placed in a stressful situation. Stress is often the trigger and those who cope well under stress are unlikely to have a triggered event. Hardly archaic beliefs going on here.

[Less Hair]

Messing up an approach so the captain takes over is one thing, getting locked out of the cockpit for the remaining flight is something else. With all respect to stress and mental issues I think we don't have the full picture. If it was just some limited personal high stress situation -like family trouble, broken love or similar- I hope he can return. If not I'm more strict since that certain german FO back then. Who had been permitted to return.

All the other medical limits for pilots are super strict like eyesight and such. Many good pilots are blocked from a career because of very minor imperfections. However mental health issues suddenly get that extra bonus for softer limits. Why is that?

[slip and turn]

The selection programs that others have referred to aimed, in part, to weed out those candidates who "appeared" to show a higher tendency to stress. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but the results were pretty good. Hamble had a 500 questionnaire followed by interview with a fully qualified Psychologist. Many thought one test was a co-ordination exerrcise. It wasn't. It looked hard at how candidates might re-act once placed in a high stress situation. Might be "cobblers" to you "Beardy" but I know who I'd rather be sitting behind ; someone who passed formal selection or someone who falls apart at selection questions, like, "What is a half divided by a half" when asked in a stress environment. Amazing how many go red in the face and bleat out " A quarter!".Is that really a selection question with no other context? If it is, then some question setters really are a little bit up themselves unless the purpose of asking it is to remind that clarity is needed in loose verbal or written communication in order to avoid communication errors initiated by those asking the questions. As it stands it is a trick question with no defined context or parameters and thus no definable purpose. If the question was set as what is ½/½ or 0.5/0.5 it would have true mathematically defined context. Otherwise it simply identifies a senseless miscommunication opportunity between the person asking the question and the person answering it. Would you fail a selection candidate who would of passed {sic} with better practice at stupid questions, in favour of one who would have never seen such a question before but happened to see the trap?

I will freely admit that from my totally unstressed chair this morning I did not see the "trap". I think that might be because my brain was long ago trained to be able to answer much more rigorously set mathematical problems. But I have today learned a little bit about potential miscommunication in a cockpit if this is how aviators question each other in 2019 and expect to weed out weakness in others by waiting for mistakes to arise out of sloppiness in their own written or spoken words.

Again if it is a real selection question, at best one would hope the selectors might be looking for an instant retort as a safety check such as "do you mean half of a half or do you mean point 5 divided by point 5?", but in practice what are they really going to get from a control group of even the most unstressed expert mathematicians or engineers?

[RoyHudd]

Messing up an approach so the captain takes over is one thing, getting locked out of the cockpit for the remaining flight is something else. With all respect to stress and mental issues I think we don't have the full picture. If it was just some limited personal high stress situation -like family trouble, broken love or similar- I hope he can return. If not I'm more strict since that certain german FO back then. Who had been permitted to return.

All the other medical limits for pilots are super strict like eyesight and such. Many good pilots are blocked from a career because of very minor imperfections. However mental health issues suddenly get that extra bonus for softer limits. Why is that?


Agreed. We do not have the full picture. Therefore judgements are not in order. Investigation and possible retraining of the FO are required. Retraining does not automatically mean a return to the flight deck.

[deja vu]

Fine if he is a trapeze artiste or a tight rope walker but I wouldn't want this character flying my family or any other , I do sympathise and wish him well in some other career.

[Uplinker]

Stress can be very insidious. I know from personal experience that one can be extremely stressed by events without feeling stressed or showing any outward signs of it. Then an event occurs that, on top of everything else, causes the individual to run out of “stress capacity” and their performance suddenly drops dramatically. They are not mentally ill, just overloaded.

It seems odd for a modern trainee pilot to be stressed by current airline flying or training to the extent that they leave the cockpit during landing (!), so maybe a career change is required. Having said that, who knows what other events were happening in their life? Possibly relocation, maybe first time living away from home, first time finding somewhere to live, difficult training course or nowhere quiet to study, not able to sleep fully, applying for airside security passes etc, etc, can be a heavy stress load.
.

[beardy]

There are some commentators here who seem to be that this young person's problem was an inability to make correct decisions whilst stressed. And that behaviour can be predicted.

It seems to me that the problem was a breakdown of behaviour, not of decision making. That points to a mental health problem. I posit that this is not predictable and is not looked for in any current nor in any past selection process.

[Meester proach]

There are some commentators here who seem to be that this young person's problem was an inability to make correct decisions whilst stressed. And that behaviour can be predicted.

It seems to me that the problem was a breakdown of behaviour, not of decision making. That points to a mental health problem. I posit that this is not predictable and is not looked for in any current nor in any past selection process.


Exactly. I think calm behaviour under stress is being confused with mental illness by some of the above.

[Procrastinus]

Sorry for him, but he should have his licence suspended immediately. What if he gets in a 'tizz' with an real emergency plus a landing on limits?

[Chris the Robot]

There are some safety-critical industries which recruit heavily from those with military and/or emergency services backgrounds. Whilst I'm aware that there are people from these backgrounds who could have developed various psychological conditions related to trauma, I'd be surprised if more than a few applied for a safety-critical role and if selected, passed the medical.

If the airlines recruited forty-somethings with a couple of decades of non-flying military experience or emergency services experience, would it be less likely for an airline to find itself in this sort of position? Any airline recruiting such people would probably need to fund training, it's expensive enough without a family to feed.

[Gipsy Queen]

Would you fail a selection candidate who would of passed {sic} with better practice at stupid questions, in favour of one who would have never seen such a question before but happened to see the trap?

Thanks s&t - gets me going as well. I get so bored of these things!

As has been suggested, there is a difference to be recognised between a possible inability to function well under stress and mental impairment or illness. I think it important to determine which applies here but we have nothing like sufficient knowledge to enable an informed judgement.

[Reverserbucket]

Mental impairment vs capacity under stress is not discussed in the AAIB report of course, but the facts remain that the F/O stated that he was "afraid" that he might touch down on the runway edge while floating in the flare, and that his impression of the go-around being a "frightening and serious event" were reinforced - in fact, there are several references to the co-pilot feeling frightened in his stated comments, which to my mind, is not a function of dwindling capacity leading to the anxiety attack but rather some underlying issue. These were not extraordinary events but normal procedures that he should have been exposed to many times in basic and type-training. He left the cockpit during a critical phase of flight - this is the serious issue in my view and I find it hard to imagine a scenario beyond physical incapacitation where this could be deemed professionally acceptable.

[TelsBoy]

As a pilot who has experienced anxiety and its crippling affects on life, I read this thread with much interest and sadness.

Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).

A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.

I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?

Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.

[Uplinker]

For sure, we should be considerate, and I hope I was.

We don’t know exactly what happened, only what was reported, However, if a pilot with nearly 700 hours does not feel they can control and arrest a sideways drift close to minima, and/or has to go around - and this situation scares them - well, are they really in the right profession? and didn’t they cover this situation in training?

Just a thought: Do cadets these days still do spinning and spin recovery during their ATPLs? What about engine failure during a go-around in an MEP? I can’t see someone who is scared of going around from minima being comfortable in a spinning aircraft, or with an engine failure !

[parkfell]

Mandatory Upset Recovery Training in being introduced later this year as part of the CPL/IR,
and a requirement before the first multi-crew type rating for those in the transitional period.

[Reverserbucket]

No mandatory incipient or developed spin training required during basic training any longer Uplinker although there is some quite advanced UPRT conducted at one school I'm aware of although to be introduced in due course as described by parkfell.

TelsBoy - pleased to hear that you have returned to flying and that you are managing your health; good news. Did you identify an issue in advance and declare to your AME or did you suffer an episode in flight which lead to a declaration of reduced medical fitness? I ask because a big part of the problem with mental health appears to be the recognition that anything is abnormal by the sufferer. I speak as someone who has experienced at first hand a close relative who, after a significant period of time where we and colleagues knew things weren't right, has been diagnosed with a form of paranoid psychosis. Although not employed in a safety critical function when working, my relative will not accept the diagnosis, refuses to continue a course of medication, has lost an influential and high earning job (following a number of incidents of unusual and erratic behaviour) with little prospect of a return to the workplace, and refuses to acknowledge that there is an organic problem that might be managed successfully. My relative hid the symptoms well for a number of years although became something of a recluse in the process and although not employed in the aviation industry, an attitude prevailed where mental health was/is not openly discussed for fear of being perceived as weak and a risk, despite well advertised peer support and counselling resources.

Germanwings certainly lead to some changes in terms of how we manage mental health in European aviation to some extent, but I worry about the perceived stigma associated with a diagnosis in what remains a very conservative work environment. The risk associated with undeclared or 'unseen' disabilities in a locked cockpit environment is not well understood, despite Germanwings 9525 - there remains much reliance on self-declaration.

[sonicbum]

As a pilot who has experienced anxiety and its crippling affects on life, I read this thread with much interest and sadness.

Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).

A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.

I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?

Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.

Congratulations first of all for having successfully identified and solved the issue, as we pilots are used to, so kudos for that and good job ! Also congratulations for sharing Your experience that will undoubtedly help many other pilots that are or could potentially be affected by any form of anxiety or depression.
I believe Your case to be different though from the one discussed above, as You have faced non aviation related heavy stressors that have (very understandably !) triggered a clinical anxiety that could have obviously have had repercussions also on your work and all other life activities, so the top notch (and difficult) decision making was too go and seek for help.
As far as I understood on this thread the young fella was subject to some heavy stressors directly linked to his flight activity at a very early stage of his life, hence the question of pursuing in this career path or looking somewhere else ?

[Officer Kite]

Just a thought: Do cadets these days still do spinning and spin recovery during their ATPLs? What about engine failure during a go-around in an MEP? I can’t see someone who is scared of going around from minima being comfortable in a spinning aircraft, or with an engine failure !

Stalls yes, spins no. Uprt consisted of closing our eyes whilst the instructor put the aircraft into an abnormal attitude, we opened our eyes and had to recover (you'd find the aircraft pitched up steeply in a 45 deg turn then wings level, nose down stuff). Engine failures on go around are also done.

Though if this person in question was an MPL student then they may never have done the last part, i understand they never fly an mep.

There was some interesting UPRT during type rating though. Those new sims are capable of some very aggressive and sudden scenarios to say the least :E

[parkfell]

I know I have mentioned it in the past, from the QFI point of view, about turning ac upside down etc /spinning etc but if any BA pilots who trained at Prestwick late 1980s+ would like to contribute to the benefits of their AS202 Bravo flying, it might assist in explaining why EASA has introduced the limited mandatory training. Probably a political compromise as ever.

[Gipsy Queen]

I know I have mentioned it in the past, from the QFI point of view, about turning ac upside down etc /spinning etc but if any BA pilots who trained at Prestwick late 1980s+ would like to contribute to the benefits of their AS202 Bravo flying, it might assist in explaining why EASA has introduced the limited mandatory training. Probably a political compromise as ever.

In a post of a year or two back, I lamented the withdrawal of mandatory spin and stall experience from the basic PPL syllabus. Perhaps this change was occasioned by the inability of the usual spam-can to do either but there is no question that a pilot familiar with these manoeuvres and capable of performing them is a better pilot as skills acquired outside the box enhance one's general ability. It was in this post that I made the distinction between learning to fly and learning to pass the test and this distinction applies equally to a private license and a transport licence. It's the difference between me and Alfred Haynes whose obit is in today's Telegraph.

Don't know what is included in UPRT but imagine it may be sort of equivalent to what I remember as Recovery from Unusual Attitudes.

[Mozella]

Reading these posts reminds me why I no longer ride onboard commercial airliners.

[Uplinker]

@Telsboy: I was stressed once. I went to my GP thinking he might prescribe sleeping aids or something but after diagnosing my symptoms he said “you’re stressed and I am signing you off work for 2 weeks starting today”. This hit me like a slap on the face, because I didn’t feel stressed at all, I just couldn’t seem to do my job as well as I usually did and didn’t know what was wrong with me. (A lot of stuff was going on at home).

Very interesting that spinning and MEP flying and engine failure in a twin on go-around has been dropped from the ATPL. That’s the problem right there. We did both in real aircraft, not in a SiM. Ditto unusual attitude recovery. It prepares you for bad situations and gives you the confidence that you can deal with them and recover safely. It also would weed out any cadets who were truly scared by flying.

Spinning always made me uncomfortable, but only like on a roller coaster where you get very very uncomfortable for a moment when it changes direction or plummets, but you know deep down that you are perfectly safe. Spinning training in a Zlin, as we did, was worse, since it seemed to flip over on to its back when entering the spin. However, a few years later, I inadvertently span a Shed - real one, not a SIM - an empty training flight with no passengers (!) - and because of my spin training, I was not scared, just momentarily WTF? and looking out of the windscreen at fields rotating below us. Then; right, spin recovery, here we go.

Towards the end of the ATPL course, we went up in the Zlin again and flew inverted. That was very weird.

But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.

How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from an SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?

[Officer Kite]

Very interesting that spinning and MEP flying and engine failure in a twin on go-around has been dropped from the ATPL. That’s the problem right there. We did both in real aircraft, not in a SiM. Ditto unusual attitude recovery. It prepares you for bad situations and gives you the confidence that you can deal with them and recover safely. It also would weed out any cadets who were truly scared by flying.

But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.

How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual, real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from a SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?


They're dropped from the MPL, they go SEP to 320 or 737 sim. I did the regular ATPL route, flew an MEP and did real life single engine go arounds. Although spins are no longer a requirement, some schools might deliver them as an add on UPRT course, not sure.

[parkfell]

You might recall a BA 747 overflying Africa probably 20 years or so ago, when a mentally ill passenger entered the flight deck “with intent”.
The Captain “poked” him in the eyes as the FO fought to keep control of the ac.
The ac eventually rolled by 94° with the nose dropping.
Fortunately the FO was ex Hawk whose previous experience of came to the fore, and smoothly returned in to straight & level.
A good example of why appropriate training prior to licence is important.

[Oxazole]

Officer Kite I’m not sure where you’ve got this information from. Speaking from firsthand experience of the easyJet MPL at least, the MEP training syllabus is still covered and the initial UPRT covers recovery from high and low nose attitudes, incipient spins and fully developed spins in an aerobatic SEP.

[Fursty Ferret]

When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.

​​​​​​In my experience, the typical "snowflake" of whom you speak so disparagingly is more able than most to work effectively with other people. Unlike your background which appears to rely on shouting, intimidation, and fear of authority to effect results.

This is no different to any other issue that might require medical treatment, and since the pilot is back at work and both easyJet and the regulator are content, there is nothing more to say.

Other than, of course, to point out to the dinosaurs that life has moved on since the 1940s.

[flash8]

​​​​​​When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.Even the professionals charged with "training" the unlikely cadets are not acting swiftly enough with the clear no-hopers.Kos was the thin edge of a large wedge.

As for the guy in question, my sympathies, sometimes it is very easy to feel overwhelmed, nothing to be ashamed of, happens to us all to some degree.

[Officer Kite]

Officer Kite I’m not sure where you’ve got this information from. Speaking from firsthand experience of the easyJet MPL at least, the MEP training syllabus is still covered and the initial UPRT covers recovery from high and low nose attitudes, incipient spins and fully developed spins in an aerobatic SEP.

My information is the ICAO MPL syllabus itself and it does not mandate MEP aircraft usage during the little actual flight hours there are in the MPL course. That isn’t to say some schools do not use an MEP, it’s to say they don’t have to and a large number don’t.

As for spin training, again it is not mandatory. Some do (oaa i know did aerobatic uprt in the usa) full spins etc and others just cover stalls and other unusual attitude recoveries - i myself never did a spin as I previously mentioned (CPL/IR). We covered how to recover were it to occur, but didn’t do one. To be fair though i don’t know anyone even from other schools who did actually fully spin in am aircraft, it’s a serious situation to be playing with.

[pilotchute]

Panic attacks can happen for no apparent reason to people with no history of anxiety or metal illness. Young and old.

Unless he has panic disorder and didn't disclose it, leave the poor person alone. The last thing he needs is to log onto Prune and see people judging him.
​​​​

[pilotchute]

I never said pretend it didn't happen, just dont brand the guy weak which some here appear to be doing.

[wiggy]

To be fair though i don’t know anyone even from other schools who did actually fully spin in am aircraft, it’s a serious situation to be playing with.



Depends what you mean by serious? As a QFI many moons ago I "played with" a few hundred at least and survived..

With the correct instruction/handling, with aforethought, in a suitably certified aircraft, spinning should be a routine manoeuvre, albeit one you shouldn't be casual about undertaking.

I think one problem we have is that some younger aviators have possibly never ever indulged in the likes of aeros or experienced extreme attitudes in a real aircraft. That can sometimes just perhaps produce a mindset, perhaps even a fear, that anything much more than e.g. 30 angle of bank is getting close to the "edge of the envelope"- in the Chuck Yeager, not FQIS, sense of the term..:ooh:

[parkfell]

My information is the ICAO MPL syllabus itself and it does not mandate MEP aircraft usage during the little actual flight hours there are in the MPL course. That isn’t to say some schools do not use an MEP, it’s to say they don’t have to and a large number don’t.

As for spin training, again it is not mandatory. Some do (oaa i know did aerobatic uprt in the usa) full spins etc and others just cover stalls and other unusual attitude recoveries - i myself never did a spin as I previously mentioned (CPL/IR). We covered how to recover were it to occur, but didn’t do one. To be fair though i don’t know anyone even from other schools who did actually fully spin in am aircraft, it’s a serious situation to be playing with.

FTE Jerez have conducted MPL since 2010. DA42 flying is part of that syllabus together with UPRT on the T67 / Robin

As Wiggy says nothing to fear for junior birdmen

Spin training is a matter of routine provided the briefings and teaching are robust


Officer KIte: your inbox is full, unable to PM

[A320baby]

Exactly what’s been said in previous posts! Panic attacks can happen for no reason! So give the person a break!

[CaptainMongo]

If this took place on a line check: a pilot is unable to perform a go around, and subsequently removes him or herself from the cockpit for the duration of the flight, should he or she pass the line check?

[beardy]

If this took place on a line check: a pilot is unable to perform a go around, and subsequently removes him or herself from the cockpit for the duration of the flight, should he or she pass the line check?
Why would you ask a question when you already know the answer? And since it didn't happen, the question is hypothetical, of what relevance is it?

Or are you just stirring the pot for no other reason than mischief making?

[Less Hair]

Finally he is paid and needed to do a job and be available in the cockpit.
While everybody can have a bad day and perform sub par at times, and that's okay with me, some constant medical condition is not acceptable. He can possibly be treated and return to full capabilities. But I'm against hidden issues that can suddenly affect everybody else at any time. If unfit to fly or unwell do not report for duty please.

[parkfell]

New research published BBC on line today for those interested in mental health issues

[sonicbum]

Exactly what’s been said in previous posts! Panic attacks can happen for no reason! So give the person a break!


​​​​​​​Just for the sake of enhancing our knowledge, it is not true that panic attacks happen for no reason. They can well happen for no apparent reason but statistically speaking people that have been subject to anxiety/panic/depression disorders have found one or more potential root causes, which in the end is quite logical. There have been also multiple cases over the years of people experiencing those issues due to pure organic reasons, such as hormonal imbalance necessitating treatment. So there is basically always something going on behind the scenes in those cases and the most important point is to accurately target the issues and find a proper solution. By the way I am not a psychologist at all, just attended a course in order to be able to deliver a CAA functional sim check to anyone experiencing a medical suspension due to those and other reasons.

[pilotchute]

Panic attacks can happen for no apparent reason to people with no history of anxiety or metal illness. Young and old.

Unless he has panic disorder and didn't disclose it, leave the poor person alone. The last thing he needs is to log onto Prune and see people judging him.
​​​​
Pretty sure I didn't say no reason. Just no reason may be apparent at the time.

[Propellerhead]

After the Germanwings suicide the CAA are very cautious about mental health issues so the fact that he’s been cleared again to fly means he must have passed a rigorous procedure to get his medical back, so I think we can rest assured he is safe to fly. Also I believe that when people hide these type of conditions they can be worse - the anxiety of thinking what the consequences of having an anxiety attack and what people will think must add considerably to it. Once out in the open and having received treatment I’m sure he has strategies for dealing with those kind of feelings. And perhaps greater awareness of not flying when unfit from lack of sleep or fatigue - an ever present issue with low cost flying.

I’m very pleased that this guy has received treatment and is back on the line. It will encourage others with mental health issues to seek help rather than bottle it up and hope no one notices.

What effect would grounding anyone who has a mental health issue have on the number of people seeking help do you think? Very much the same as disciplining people who make mistakes instead of retraining them has on an open safety reporting culture.

[Nil further]

It is my observation after a few years in the game that so called open/just cultures in aviation are a spent force .

the culture is open and just until the reporter threatens to reveal the emperor has no clothes then the messenger is very quickly put back in their place.

the airlines CAA,FAA, NTSB & AAIB are all very keen to support the Just Culture myth and will brutally protect their bonuses / sinecures.

Ask Sully how justly he was treated, there are plenty others out there who dare not speak.

[Diavel]

It is my observation after a few years in the game that so called open/just cultures in aviation are a spent force .

the culture is open and just until the reporter threatens to reveal the emperor has no clothes then the messenger is very quickly put back in their place.

the airlines CAA,FAA, NTSB & AAIB are all very keen to support the Just Culture myth and will brutally protect their bonuses / sinecures.

Ask Sully how justly he was treated, there are plenty others out there who dare not speak.
It is in many ways a way for the industry to look good.
but there is not much substance to it.
Anyway I believe that the person who freaked out needs to find a new job. Clearly he does not perform well under pressure, and as FC I would not be too happy working with people like that

[Kinell]

Kind words, but would you really be happy for your family to fly with this First Officer on the flight deck? I certainly would not. How do you, (or the CAA) know that there will no further issues, particularly during any emergency situations? Answer - you don't.

[pilotchute]

You better start taking the bus Kinell. Pilots with depression/anxiety conditions have been flying around for 15 plus years now. They are scrutinized closely and jump through many more hoops than normal to keep a class 1 .

Find something else to be concerned about.

[RHS]

A few years after entering the airlines, I had a particularly hairy event with weather that for all intents and purposes should have caused an accident. But for the grace of god, it did not. There wasn’t much we could have done, it was simply “one of those things”. It “shook” me up for a little while, and I admit to feel a level of discomfort when in similar weather conditions for a while afterward.

I spoke to a few older and wiser pilots about it, also consulted my company. It never bordered on an effect on my ability to perform, but it bothered me.

To cut a long long story short, I ended up booking on to an upset recovery course, refresh things I did in basic training. I haven’t experienced any of the issues since that course. Anyone reading this feeling a bit uneasy, find someone you trust, go spin, loop, roll etc. Etc. Explore your ability and the envelope, absolute game changer.

[BewareOfTheSharklets]

All the other medical limits for pilots are super strict like eyesight and such. Many good pilots are blocked from a career because of very minor imperfections. However mental health issues suddenly get that extra bonus for softer limits. Why is that?

Because mental health problems can be hidden much more easily than physical impairments. If you act "tough" against mental health issues, people will hide them rather than seeking treatment which is much more likely to have a bad outcome.


​Reverserbucket post at 1650 yesterday concerning Matthew Guest v. Flybe Limited at an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal describes in detail the emotional issues which can occur. Definitely worth a read for those interested in mental health flying issues. Allow yourself two hours.


​​​​​​I read through all that and found it very worthwhile. A very difficult situation for all involved, though I guess all issues relating to mental health and aviation are.

However, if a pilot with nearly 700 hours does not feel they can control and arrest a sideways drift close to minima, and/or has to go around - and this situation scares them - well, are they really in the right profession?
My impression was that he wasn't fearful of the go-around but rather the aftermath (cockpit gradient). Performance Pressure being higher than normal because the skipper had needed to take control from him the day before.

[AviatorDave]

(...)
My impression was that he wasn't fearful of the go-around but rather the aftermath (cockpit gradient). Performance Pressure being higher than normal because the skipper had needed to take control from him the day before.

If the captain took control from him the day before and the control takeover was for good reason, then I do not think that cockpit gradient would play a role here. Pressure to do it right yes, but unless I have missed it, there has been no information about the captain’s personality contributing to a particularly high stress environment.
IMHO he got so hooked up with getting it right this time that he was finally overwhelmed, regardless of the guy sitting next to him.

[LEM]

License directly to the garbage bin.

[ReturningVector]

License directly to the garbage bin.





While I understand where you are coming from, I sincerely doubt that this will be beneficial for airline safety. Quite the contrary, I think this will scare a lot of pilots with mental issues from coming forward or seeking help.
As far as I can see EasyJet made the right call here, by offering help to overcome his anxiety and reinstate him.

[Reverserbucket]

Ask Sully how justly he was treated
I would but can't afford his fee :} Was told that in preparation for the Congressional hearing following the Colgan crash, wanted to charge another witness for a discussion beforehand to share background information. I understand she declined. Jeff Skiles is a really nice guy though.

[parabellum]

The bit that concerns me most is that, if reported correctly, this young FO got up and left the flight deck during a critical stage of flight. Throughout his initial training and continuation training he will have become imbued by the fact that he is a vital part of a two man crew and most needed during the critical stages of flight, i.e. TO and landing. To have cast this aside and decided his personal problems overcame all else is a worry.

One aspect this FO may have to consider is, his actions having become public and the subject of inquiry, whether or not his loss of licence insurers need to be told. Non disclosure of essential information is grounds for underwriters to refuse to pay up, they may consider this to be essential information that the FO is duty bound to disclose. Any underwriters out there like to comment?

[OldnGrounded]

I would but can't afford his fee :} Was told that in preparation for the Congressional hearing following the Colgan crash, wanted to charge another witness for a discussion beforehand to share background information. I understand she declined. Jeff Skiles is a really nice guy though.

Yes, Sully has leveraged that landing to build a profitable little empire (http://www.sullysullenberger.com/). It's hard to blame him; that's pretty much how celebrity is monetized in our system.

[Nil further]

Given that his employer et al were throwing him under the bus

can you blame him ?

[OldnGrounded]

Given that his employer et al were throwing him under the bus

can you blame him ?

Nope. Not a bit.

[XB70_Valkyrie]

Two quick points: the prior flight's go around "The commander took control during the flare and executed a go-around."
That has to have had some impact on his own confidence.

Secondly, anxiety attacks can and do produce physiological symptoms, e.g. increased heart, respiratory rates, nausea etc.
It is the body's response to situations or triggers.

[4runner]

License directly to the garbage bin.



license or medical?

[4runner]

While wishing our colleague a quick recovery and a bright career, I have to disagree with the above, as all those sensations should have been experienced during initial pilot training.
It is ok to put 250 hours guys on the RHS of an airliner IF there is enough "squeezing" during flight training to minimise any kind of unwanted outcome with paying customers onboard.
Anyway, our colleague might be reading us and here nobody is perfect, so again hope he will make it to retirement as a pilot but there are issues that need to be addressed -IMHO- with "modern" flight training.

“squeezing”? Hardly. They’re pampered. Euro pilots also don’t do full stalls. Unless they’re doing it by accident. That’s none of my business though. Keep up the written tests....

[hans brinker]

“squeezing”? Hardly. They’re pampered. Euro pilots also don’t do full stalls. Unless they’re doing it by accident. That’s none of my business though. Keep up the written tests....

Yeah, did both (FAA&JAA). JAA: 2 years of written test. FAA memorize Gleim book, 3 days, take an ATP written, and of you go, (but to get a good job you need a 4 year degree, preferably not related to aviation).... (neither of these requirements do anything to improve aviation safety).

Doing full stalls doesn't improve safety nearly as much as keeping aircraft out of stalls.

[bulldog89]

. Euro pilots also don’t do full stalls.


And you're wrong.

[4runner]

Doing full stalls doesn't improve safety nearly as much as keeping aircraft out of stalls.[/QUOTE]

unless you don’t know what to do, from initial flight training primacy. Then get an aircraft you’ve been taught is impossible to stall. Then stall said aircraft and keep it stalled until you hit the water. EASA pilots only conduct full stalls for instructor training.

[Banana Joe]

They taught me to be an instructor and I didn't know...

[bulldog89]

EASA pilots only conduct full stalls for instructor training.


Stop writing false information. Maybe some glamorous school doesn't do full stalls, but that's not "EASA pilots".

I think stall training was like in lesson number 5 of my PPL...

[Henri737]

Stop writing false information. Maybe some glamorous school doesn't do full stalls, but that's not "EASA pilots".

I think stall training was like in lesson number 5 of my PPL...
Including departure stalls and spintraining in a Cessna 150 aerobat, so that about EASA pilots is absolute BS.

[Uplinker]

...............Doing full stalls doesn't improve safety nearly as much as keeping aircraft out of stalls.

I am not sure that is true. Obviously modern passenger jet flying should never get anywhere near a stall or a spin. But, If a pilot has never experienced a full stall or a spin, then they haven’t practiced overcoming the natural (incorrect) reaction, nor can they develop full confidence in their ability to recover. This robs them of vital knowledge about their ability to control an aircraft in challenging conditions.

In a fully developed stall or spin, the first time you ever do it, there is no way you want to push forward on the stick - the instinct is to pull up, but you must push forward to unstall the wing in order to recover. A bit like skiing - you gain control when you lean forwards, but when you are learning to ski, the last thing you want to do when out of control whizzing down a slope is to lean forwards !

Without actually entering and recovering from such manoeuvres, there is no guarantee that you will overcome your natural, (and incorrect) instinct. The correct recovery needs to be practised and become a reflex - there is not time to think, “ah, OK, a stall, now what did my instructor say I had to do to recover?”

I wonder if F/O Bonin on AF447 had ever practiced full stalls? I suspect not.

[Nil further]

What’s this got to do Anxiety Attacks ?

[Henri737]

What’s this got to do Anxiety Attacks ?
You are correct, slowly leaving the thread "anxiety", but the further your personal capabilities are past the operational boundaries of the aircraft, the more relaxed you will be operating within the flight enveloppe. You cannot train aerobatics on an average aircraft. Hence what is your opinion about MPL? Also see the tread FAA manual flight.

At the company I flew, manual flight is a big part of training (I'm retired now after 20k+ hrs on the 737)

Anxiety is a state of mind that can happen to everybody, but hands-on training will make the chance for anxiety smaller.

(apology if my English is a bit shaky!)

Henri

[Meester proach]

I think the idea is that better manual handling will give more confidence , and therefore people will be less anxious about handling.

Our current Boeing sim includes steep turns and stalling . Good fun and good to get the scan going again.

[hans brinker]

Doing full stalls doesn't improve safety nearly as much as keeping aircraft out of stalls.

unless you don’t know what to do, from initial flight training primacy. Then get an aircraft you’ve been taught is impossible to stall. Then stall said aircraft and keep it stalled until you hit the water. EASA pilots only conduct full stalls for instructor training.[/QUOTE]

No Airbus pilot is taught an Airbus is impossible to stall, all receive training while in alternate law with the stall warning. The pilot that held the stick back on AF447 did a horrible job, but let’s not pretend that means no EASA pilot knows how to fly.

[hans brinker]

I am not sure that is true. Obviously modern passenger jet flying should never get anywhere near a stall or a spin. But, If a pilot has never experienced a full stall or a spin, then they haven’t practiced overcoming the natural (incorrect) reaction, nor can they develop full confidence in their ability to recover. This robs them of vital knowledge about their ability to control an aircraft in challenging conditions.

In a fully developed stall or spin, the first time you ever do it, there is no way you want to push forward on the stick - the instinct is to pull up, but you must push forward to unstall the wing in order to recover. A bit like skiing - you gain control when you lean forwards, but when you are learning to ski, the last thing you want to do when out of control whizzing down a slope is to lean forwards !

Without actually entering and recovering from such manoeuvres, there is no guarantee that you will overcome your natural, (and incorrect) instinct. The correct recovery needs to be practised and become a reflex - there is not time to think, “ah, OK, a stall, now what did my instructor say I had to do to recover?”

I wonder if F/O Bonin on AF447 had ever practiced full stalls? I suspect not.








I ski, and I have taught my kids how to ski and I agree pilots should be taught all the basics, and I support training full stalls, I did in primary training, and we do them in Upset recovery training on the A320. I still think AF447 should have been prevented by the PNF/PM by fully taking control as he saw Bonin zooming up. Waiting for the stall to develop and still only partially take control did nothing. As the more experienced pilot, and the acting PIC, he should have pushed the takeover button and said “my control” the moment the AP disconnected at night in weather.
Not getting in trouble beats getting out of trouble.

[Uplinker]

Hi Hans, I think we agree with each other.

Obviously prevention is better than a cure, but when the subject of this thread feels they cannot remain in the cockpit for a challenging landing - which is the very essence of being a pilot - I ask myself why. What was missing from their training such that a challenging approach and landing caused so much anxiety that they left the cockpit?

Or, possibly, we are all barking up the wrong tree?