Convair 440 crash on approach to Toledo-Express airport

[Raffles S.A.]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190911-0

[Airbubba]

Nothing unusual on the 0630Z LiveATC.net tape. These old freighters are not required to have a CVR or FDR are they?

[Raffles S.A.]

The video on Fox News showed a fierce fire, and if they crashed on approach it doesn't look good for the crew.

Update: They say the crew died

https://www.foxnews.com/us/cargo-plane-toledo-ohio-crash-flames-aircraft

[Airbubba]

Joe Rotterdam of the Lucas County Port Authority erroneously identified the plane as a CV-340 and reporter McKenzie Kuehnlein called the plane a Conveyor in an interview on the 6 am local news.

Unfortunately the crew is now confirmed dead:

Two killed when cargo plane crashes near Toledo Express AirportBy Jeff Smith (https://www.13abc.com/content/bios/289046211.html) | Posted: Wed 3:49 AM, Sep 11, 2019 | Updated: Wed 8:29 AM, Sep 11, 2019

SWANTON, Ohio (WTVG) - The Toledo Lucas County Port Authority has confirmed that two people were killed when a cargo plane crashed just outside of the Toledo Express Airport early Wednesday morning.According to crews on the scene, that plane was a conveyor [sic] cargo plane flying from Millington, Tennessee which crashed on top of two semis at Bubba's [no known relation - Airbubba] Auto and Deisel [sic] near the airport around 3 AM Wednesday morning.

Police on the scene say the plane was fully engulfed when they arrived on the scene this morning. Port Authority officials say that fire is now extinguished. Police and fire crews from multiple departments arrived on scene to assist.

https://www.13abc.com/content/news/Cargo-plane-crashes-near-Toledo-Express-Airport-560011491.html (https://www.13abc.com/content/news/Cargo-plane-crashes-near-Toledo-Express-Airport-560011491.html)

[JanetFlight]

First of all may the crew rest in peace and condolences to all involved.
Does anyone knows if this was a commercial cargo flight, a private one, which far/part, or the name of the operator doing the flight/exploring this CV last days?

[Spooky 2]

First of all may the crew rest in peace and condolences to all involved.
Does anyone knows if this was a commercial cargo flight, a private one, which far/part, or the name of the operator doing the flight/exploring this CV last days?


I believe this was a cargo charter, probably a FAR Part 125 operation used to move auto components to various assembly plants located throughout that region. These kinds of operaions have been around for at least 40+ years now.

[atakacs]

I'm still amazed that there is an economic case for commercial flights in the US with such an outdated aircraft. It really boggles the mind that there is apparently no modern equivalent on the market (and yes I understand that it might not be relevant at all to this specific accident).

[Raffles S.A.]

This is how close they were to the runway


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1023x539/screen10_png_1876cf534eb833da20e9026690e5fbe6c6f0e4eb.jpg

[BRUpax]

Anyone with the visibility and cloud base was at the time?

[Caboclo]

I work in the car parts air transport business myself, and have frequently seen this aircraft in Laredo. Cargo flying lends itself to older airplanes because new ones are so expensive. Unless your profit margin compares to Fedex, it’s awfully hard to pay those prices. Flying car parts has a very high profit per trip, but it’s all unscheduled, with no guarantees of a steady cash flow. You don’t want an expensive asset sitting around doing nothing half the time. In the case of the Convair, I would guess it was just the owners hobby, rather than a serious business.

[Raffles S.A.]

Anyone with the visibility and cloud base was at the time?

From ASNMETAR Weather report:05:52 UTC / 01:52 local time:
KTOL 110552Z 23005KT 10SM CLR 25/19 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP194 T02500194 10272 20250 51007
06:52 UTC / 02:52 local time:
KTOL 110652Z 23004KT 10SM CLR 24/19 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP196 T02440194

[Airbubba]

From the Ohio State Patrol Facebook page:

OSHP investigating deadly cargo plane crash in Lucas County - Victims have been identified

The Ohio State Highway Patrol is investigating a cargo plane crash in Springfield Township in Lucas County. The plane had two people on board at the time of the crash and both were pronounced deceased at the scene. No other injuries on the ground have been reported.

At 2:44 a.m., the Patrol was notified of vehicles on fire near Interstate 80, in close proximity to Toledo Express Airport. Troopers from the Toledo Post arrived on scene and reported a plane crashed near 10101 Garden Road, the site of a trucking business.The plane, a Convair CV-440, was owned by Barker Aeromotive, Inc., and was loaded with automotive parts. Troopers worked with law enforcement officials in Texas notify next of kin. Crew members were identified as Douglas R. Taylor [the aircraft appears to be registered in his name - Airbubba], 72, and Donald C. Peterson Sr., 69, both of Laredo, Texas.

The National Transportation Safety Board has been notified and will be on scene later this afternoon.

The Ohio National Guard Fire Unit; Toledo Fire and Rescue Department; Springfield Township, Monclova Township, and Whitehouse fire departments; Lucas County Sheriff’s Office; Ohio Environmental Protection Agency; Federal Aviation Administration; and the American Red Cross are assisting on scene.




Note the radioactive hazmat sign on the trailer in the first picture below. :eek:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x705/69767231_2465764996850587_3836840610757607424_n_155719221314 b56fe1acab668970cada387c63ae.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x705/69873305_2465765100183910_2395425195100733440_n_9f0ebaf03621 687d6d5bfe1bb8e3b892f71f2a8b.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x705/69874269_2465765053517248_5965915444811399168_n_e297a49c077d 859d1cf756ed6f2d373388d2e04f.jpg

[Airbubba]

Taylor's pilot licenses:


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1478x918/taylor_6803fba0203e0f23e9d379382d08daaabcfddc22.jpg

Peterson's pilot licenses:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1487x880/peterson_78487d4924e43d574832b560d250cacc8159b22c.jpg

[neilki]

Taylor's pilot licenses:


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1478x918/taylor_6803fba0203e0f23e9d379382d08daaabcfddc22.jpg

Peterson's pilot licenses:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1487x880/peterson_78487d4924e43d574832b560d250cacc8159b22c.jpg
A note on FAA licenses: -the 'Date of Issue" is really the date the physical license card was produced. Something as simple s a change of address will update the date of issue..

[Airbubba]

A note on FAA licenses: -the 'Date of Issue" is really the date the physical license card was produced. Something as simple s a change of address will update the date of issue..

The widow of one of the pilots said that he had flown for nearly 50 years.

From the Toledo Blade:

A freight pilot who had nearly 50 years of flying experience was one of two men who died after their cargo aircraft crashed less than a mile from Toledo Express Airport.

The nighttime incident, which is still being investigated, happened early Wednesday and caused a fiery impact after the twin-engine went down in the parking lot of a repair shop.

Ohio State Highway Patrol investigators identified the two on board as Douglas R. Taylor, 72, and Donald C. Peterson, Sr., 69, both of Laredo, Texas.

It was the type of flight the two had taken many times — flying auto parts from Laredo to cities that manufacture vehicles, said Kathy Peterson, who was married to Donald Peterson for 25 years. Her husband flew across the country from Texas to Alaska to Ohio, she said. (left=https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2019/08/21/plan-to-rename-airport-after-local-nasa-icon-gene-kranz-taking-off/stories/20190821159)“I knew something happened around 3 o’clock this morning because the airport tracks all their flights and they called me and said something happened because the airports keep in touch with each other. The longer it went on, I started watching the news and I saw what had happened,” Mrs. Peterson said. “I don’t know why it happened, but it happened. We have to wait for the investigators to do that.”

There were no other injuries reported on the ground.

The 62-year-old cargo aircraft, a twin-engine Convair 440, was approaching the airport at about 2:37 a.m. when it crashed in the parking lot of Bubba’s Diesel and Auto Repair, an auto business near Garden and Eber roads in Monclova Township, officials said. The aircraft’s flight originated at 6:36 p.m. Tuesday in Laredo, Texas. It later stopped in Millington, Tenn. — outside of Memphis — before departing at 11:14 p.m. Tuesday from the Millington Regional Jetport and heading for Toledo, according to flight records.

“It’s really horrible. It still feels like he’s going to come home,” said Ms. Peterson, who was preparing to celebrate her 25th wedding anniversary next week. “He was a great pilot and a great guy, and I loved him very much.”



https://www.toledoblade.com/local/police-fire/2019/09/11/officials-plane-crashes-outside-of-toledo-express-airport/stories/20190911118

[MarkerInbound]

Nothing unusual on the 0630Z LiveATC.net tape. These old freighters are not required to have a CVR or FDR are they?

Under 121 or 125 they would have to have a basic 11 channel FDR. There is no requirement for a CVR. Given the ambient background noise a CVR wouldn’t pick up much that’s not on the ATC tapes.

[MarkerInbound]

Interesting that both of them have, besides the recip Convair type, DC-3 types, CW-46 types and YS-11 types. Guessing they had worked together for many years.

Thinking back on it Barker Aeromotive was who we dealt with 35 years ago in LRD three jobs ago running car parts in -3s and Convairs.

[ironbutt57]

I work in the car parts air transport business myself, and have frequently seen this aircraft in Laredo. Cargo flying lends itself to older airplanes because new ones are so expensive. Unless your profit margin compares to Fedex, it’s awfully hard to pay those prices. Flying car parts has a very high profit per trip, but it’s all unscheduled, with no guarantees of a steady cash flow. You don’t want an expensive asset sitting around doing nothing half the time. In the case of the Convair, I would guess it was just the owners hobby, rather than a serious business.


its a very serious and lucrative business

[srjumbo747]

Condolences to all concerned.
Is it normal in the US to have pilots over 65 to fly commercially together?

[Australopithecus]

its a very serious and lucrative business
When I cut my teeth in that game in the mid seventies it was lucrative only if you ignored the downtime. The fixed expenses keep accumulating, waiting for the next call from a panicked auto cargo coordinator. Back then you could make a ton of money quickly, and then lose it just as fast when things tapered off. We used to hope for rail strikes, interstate closures and snowstorms.

Happy to no longer fly anything with a DC, L or CV prefix. Or for that matter fly anything in Great Lakes wx systems.

[Airmotive]

In the late 90s I worked the overnight shift on the ramp in Norfolk, VA (ORF), home of Ford’s F-150 production line. Ford was continuously working out the bugs of just-in-time inventory control, and so it was rare for an evening to pass without some classic (if not antique) cargo plane to pull up unannounced with a load of parts. No expense was spared to keep the production line running. The most memorable was a DC-8...taxied in, the pilot opened his cockpit window and dropped a paper grocery bag down to the ramp. I never did learn what was in the bag. It weighed maybe five pounds. Whatever it was, it warranted a DC-8 flight at 2AM.

[Surlybonds]

The most memorable was a DC-8...taxied in, the pilot opened his cockpit window and dropped a paper grocery bag down to the ramp. I never did learn what was in the bag.

Emergency donut order? :rolleyes:

[Spooky 2]

Condolences to all concerned.
Is it normal in the US to have pilots over 65 to fly commercially together?

I don't believe there are any age restrictions under Part 125 as long as it remains domestic. This reminds me of a Flying Tigers L1049 accident at KBUR back around 1962.

[MarkerInbound]

Condolences to all concerned.
Is it normal in the US to have pilots over 65 to fly commercially together?You would have to define normal. Parts 91k, 125 and 135 do not have any age restrictions. But of the ~283 thousand active commercial and ATP pilots in the US there were 46,511 older than 65 the beginning of this year or about 16 percent. So over all.

[Old Boeing Driver]

Condolences to the families and may the pilots RIP. In looking at their certificates, I wonder if they were ex Air America or Continental Air Services guys.

[Raffles S.A.]

From the above pictures the direction of the crash appears to have been roughly in the direction of the arrow, which would make it a very steep turn onto final from that position. The flightaware track shows they made a left hand downwind pattern for the runway.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1480x805/screenshot_from_2019_09_12_17_46_14_b6c079da4ddad444d09dc72b 96c560f7f775fbc0.png

[Raffles S.A.]

NTSB preliminary reort. No indication as to what may have happened.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20190911X54810&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=MA

[Lord Farringdon]

A sad event. Condolences to all the families concerned. N24DR in better times.

(Image attributed to Flightaware.)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/752x547/n24dr_bfa96e0de882c46a1a7257573a081a00c04cd27b.jpg

[XB70_Valkyrie]

A not-helpful statement in the media:

"“I’m surprised it does not have a black box. Obviously, the black box is proved to be an extremely useful tool in aviation investigations and I don’t know if this plane was required to have a black box or not,” said James Hall, a former NTSB board chairman and current managing partner of Hall & Associates in Washington."

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/police-fire/2019/09/12/national-transportation-safety-board-begins-looking-into-cargo-plane-crash/stories/20190912111

I'll throw out some possibilities: load/CG shift or PIC medical event on final.

[A Squared]

Under 121 or 125 they would have to have a basic 11 channel FDR. There is no requirement for a CVR. Given the ambient background noise a CVR wouldn’t pick up much that’s not on the ATC tapes.


FDR's are not required for recip aircraft, even under Part 121.

[A Squared]

Interesting that both of them have, besides the recip Convair type, DC-3 types, CW-46 types and YS-11 types. Guessing they had worked together for many years.

Not necessarily, DC-3s, Recip Convairs, and C-46's were all pretty common in the non-sked world in the 1960's and 70's even into the 1980's there's a few of each still operating in various places.

[Raffles S.A.]

I'll throw out some possibilities: load/CG shift or PIC medical event on final.

Overbanking to get onto final? Looks at the image I posted above. Also 2am in the morning, in their WOCL.

[cats_five]

Overbanking to get onto final? Looks at the image I posted above. Also 2am in the morning, in their WOCL.

If the turn is balanced and airspeed is constant the only extra force on the load is some g - how much depends on the angle of bank.

[BRE]

Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?

[aterpster]

Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?
The only conversion I recall was the Convair 580.

[EastMids]

Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?
Yes it was. Turboprop conversions are Convair 580 / 5800 (Allison 501), Convair 600 / 640 (Rolls Royce Dart) and Convair 540 (Napier Eland)

[ironbutt57]

yes, it is still piston powered...(see the photo)...and the above mentioned YS-11 is a turboprop, RR Dart powered, never was a recip

[ironbutt57]

If the turn is balanced and airspeed is constant the only extra force on the load is some g - how much depends on the angle of bank.

and what causes the increase in G load??? increase in angle of attack, if the speed being flown is not increased as a factor of stalling speed (min maneuver) to account for the increased AOA during the bank,or the wing is not unloaded by reducing the pitch (AOA),(thus changing the aircraft's trajectory) the classic stall/spin occurs..one of the most prevalent accident scenarios in general aviation today..

[MarkerInbound]

FDR's are not required for recip aircraft, even under Part 121.

Yes, you’re right. I was remembering we had to upgrade the recorders on one of our CV fleets. It was the 600/640, not the recip.

[MarkerInbound]

Not necessarily, DC-3s, Recip Convairs, and C-46's were all pretty common in the non-sked world in the 1960's and 70's even into the 1980's there's a few of each still operating in various places.

I spent most of the 80s behind 1820s, 1830s and 2800s and went through LRD a lot so I remember that business. It’s just the YS was such an oddball and to have two pilots with the type would be very rare. Piedmont, Reeve Aleutian and Mid Pac were the only major US operators.

[cats_five]

and what causes the increase in G load??? increase in angle of attack, if the speed being flown is not increased as a factor of stalling speed (min maneuver) to account for the increased AOA during the bank,or the wing is not unloaded by reducing the pitch (AOA),(thus changing the aircraft's trajectory) the classic stall/spin occurs..one of the most prevalent accident scenarios in general aviation today..

A balanced turn at a safe speed will not cause the load to shift.

[B2N2]

Night VFR during what is an exceptionally pleasant night in an airplane you’ve flown for a long time with a crew member you’ve known for years going into an airport you’ve been to hundreds of times.

Premature descent below MDA during a visual approach ?
A clear night and bright lights can give you the visual perception you are closer to the airport.

[Lord Farringdon]

Yes, if I understand the narrative so far, these operations are somewhat 'just in time' and 'we need it now' rather than a planned and scheduled flight. How long had the crew been up before launching this mission I wonder? I know the constant drone and vibration of a C130 could put a declared insomniac to sleep in minutes and I imagine a recip like the accident aircraft would have similar sleep inducing powers especially at that time of night on a crew that may have already had a longish day. Just agreeing that maybe they weren't as sharp as they could have been as they made an all too familiar approach. Flaps down?

[jimtx]

Back side of the clock although the first leg on this one looks like it should not present a problem. Tag legs after a back side of the clock leg usually involved not 100% capable crews, depending on their rest preparation prior to flight. I flew a lot all night international flights, 3 crew, with adequate preparation and never felt degraded. On those same flights I've seen reserve pilots called out to fill a slot that could/would not use their rest period and were toast at the end of the flight. But, at one of my two airlines, we used to have an easy MIA HAV charter turn around that left at midnight and returned at 2 that was easy peasy. One night we had to wait for 2 or 3 hours to get going back to MIA. We could not get a checklist done right to save us. I think there is an NTSB report of a DC-8 crew who after a long day crashed moving the AC under part 91 with no limit and the conclusion was fatigue.