Declaring an Emergency

[parkfell]

A FLYBE DASH 400 was recently subject to an AAIB monthly report.

In summary the cargo door seal failed resulting in a depressurisation followed by an emergency descent to FL100.
A mayday call was transmitted. Once level at FL100 and it had all calmed down it was downgraded to a PAN call.
Uneventful landing.

My Qs to ATCOs:

1. When ScACC notified EDI approach controller of the incident, what actions do ATC take.
2. When the downgrade to PAN is made, what new actions do ATC take.
3. CAP413 gives an example of cancelling a MAYDAY (light ac restarted the engine : now normal operations.)
I cannot find anything which talks about downgrading from Mayday to PAN.

I would welcome ATCOs views on the merits of downgrading, and how this now impacts upon the ATC function.

[Gonzo]

parkfell,

Important here to differentiate between the priority state (MAYDAY v PAN) and any emergency response that the tower will call to meet the aircraft. They are two different matters. ATC can put on a Full Emergency response for what the flight crew might not deem an emergency (engine failure, One of four hydraulic systems failed, etc). Conversely, ATC might not call any response at all for a MAYDAY.

It all depends on the issue at hand.

MAYDAY v PAN is only used by ATC to determine the priority level of that flight among the other flights being dealt with at that time. We then use the detail of the problem to determine the emergency response.

[zonoma]

Mayday - imminent danger, immediate action required: depressurised so need immediate descent FL100.

PAN - now we are at FL100, we are out of imminent danger but still require priority handling/approach.

Mayday = pilot can choose any airport, any runway, any direction PAN = pilot can choose any airport but ATC state which runway for landing.

Mayday vs PAN - other than mentioned above, ATC would do very little differently. IF there was a Mayday and PAN heading to the same airport within similar times, the Mayday will probably go in first (I have seen the opposite but for very good reasons)

Mayday = I'll get you the most direct route possible including through any active danger area PAN = I'll get you the most direct route possible however may go around some danger areas that co-ordination may not be possible to achieve to transit.

[FantomZorbin]

Speaking as an ex-D&Der, it is much better if the pilot assumes the worst and declares MAYDAY then downgrades according to the progress of the incident … it is far easier to stand down emergency services than to play catch-up!

[jmmoric]

Speaking as an ex-D&Der, it is much better if the pilot assumes the worst and declares MAYDAY then downgrades according to the progress of the incident … it is far easier to stand down emergency services than to play catch-up!

There are airports around the world that specifically require the crew to state the requirement for FFR, mostly because they may come long way from, lock down roads, prepare hospitals etc.... Other places, most that happens is within the airport, and doesn't affect too much outside, hence the ATCO's have a little more "control" of what they deem is suitable for the situation, and activate the FFR standby on their own discretion.

But to the question, PANPAN is priority as well, only priority that is higher is if another reports a MAYDAY. So as long as anyone doesn't report MAYDAY, the PANPAN comes in first, if someone reports a MAYDAY, the PANPAN would already have decided that their priority is not important enough that they want to block a MAYDAY. something something :)

[parkfell]

If a MAYDAY is declared by an airliner, will ATC automatically alert the external services to attend the airfield, or is it dependant upon the nature of the emergency.

If the emergency is then downgraded graded to a PAN, can the external services be cancelled and return to their bases before arriving at the airfield. If the external services cannot be cancelled en route, is there any point downgrading the MAYDAY to PAN status.

[Glamdring]

If I remember this incident correctly, it had already been downgraded to a PAN by the time EDI was notified. Think a Local Standby was put on.

[Gonzo]

If a MAYDAY is declared by an airliner, will ATC automatically alert the external services to attend the airfield, or is it dependant upon the nature of the emergency.

If the emergency is then downgraded graded to a PAN, can the external services be cancelled and return to their bases before arriving at the airfield. If the external services cannot be cancelled en route, is there any point downgrading the MAYDAY to PAN status.

Again, there are two separate issues here.

The degree of priority given to a certain flight by ATC is determined by the MAYDAY/PAN.

The emergency response (Aircraft Ground Incident, Local Standby, Full Emergency, Aircraft Accident Imminent etc), if any, is determined by the actual nature of the problem. So if the nature of the problem hasn’t changed, then the emergency response won’t change.

In many circumstances, once an emergency response is called, then it would need the RFFS to cancel or downgrade, rather than ATC.

[jmmoric]

If a MAYDAY is declared by an airliner, will ATC automatically alert the external services to attend the airfield, or is it dependant upon the nature of the emergency.

If the emergency is then downgraded graded to a PAN, can the external services be cancelled and return to their bases before arriving at the airfield. If the external services cannot be cancelled en route, is there any point downgrading the MAYDAY to PAN status.


One call goes to RCC, normally through the ACC... RCC will have a lot of work to do gathering information, and finding assets in the vicinity for SAR usage etc., but that's often a side ATCO's or pilots rarely see (until a figther slips in beside the airliner to follow him, or helicopter after the C182), RCC may also, depending on the situation, wait and see (there's normally no need for them if the aircraft reaches a runway, and is within reach of the local units)

But RCC operations is a different animal all together, used to be there for a decade, and we were allowed to spend gonverment money (a lot if required) and send out the units we deem necessary.

[LookingForAJob]

This topic has been discussed before and you might find some useful information if you search for earlier threads.

Your question relates to an incident in the UK and most of the answers are specific to the UK; other countries do some of this stuff very differently. I am long out of ops but back in my day the controller had quite a lot of discretion in the response to an aircraft in distress or emergency (you can read that as there wasn't much written down about what problem got what response, just a few examples for guidance). We have now moved into an environment where a lot of controller actions are pre-ordained - from day one of training, controllers are often taught if 'this' happens, you do 'that' - there may be a reflection of that in zonoma's reply.

In the UK my understanding is that still, with respect to downgrading, once an emergency response has been initiated at an airport, which technically can only be done by ATC or RFFS, downgrading the level of response can only be done by the Fire Officer i/c, and in most cases that will only happen after the aircraft has landed (again, things happen differently in other places). The problem with downgrading is that if events unfold in a way that mean that had downgrading not occurred the outcome would have been better, whoever took the decision to reduce the response will have some very difficult questions to answer.....so even if the pilot declares that there is now a situation which warrants a PAN, it is unlikely that the ground response will be downgraded before the aircraft is on the ground.

[parkfell]

The problem with downgrading is that if events unfold in a way that mean that had downgrading not occurred the outcome would have been better, whoever took the decision to reduce the response will have some very difficult questions to answer.....so even if the pilot declares that there is now a situation which warrants a PAN, it is unlikely that the ground response will be downgraded before the aircraft is on the ground.

So from a practical point of view, there seems to be little merit in downgrading to a PAN. Once the external services have been deployed, then a stand down will only occur once the ac in on the ground and the Fire Chief in conjunction with other interested parties agree to do so.
From the flying point of view, there is not 100% certainty that a secondary (related) event might not develop to increase the difficulties experienced. Possible a critical (rare) emergency such as an uncontained cabin fire.
There is an academic argument that another emergency might appear, and by downgrading an obvious priority order will be followed with similar ETAs. I personally would discount this as a TEN to the minus ‘x’ possibility.

[LookingForAJob]

I stand to be corrected by someone currently on the frontline but I think your summary nicely sums it up in practical terms. There is an additional consideration that despite the best efforts of all involved in an incident response information can, and frequently does, get miscommunicated, misunderstood or confused. By downgrading the level of a distress or urgency call, if that 10 to the -x were by chance to occur later in the flight, there’s every chance that trying to tell others that it’s a full emergency again would be met with cries of ‘No, it’s been downgraded’! I’ve seen something similar happen on more than one occasion. Although it’s counter-intuitive, for the sake of saving a few minutes of external services time, once a ground response has been triggered it’s usually best to let things run until the aircraft lands. Most responders will usually say that it’s all good practice anyway. The only downside is that while attending the airport, external services are not available to respond to other incidents although emergency plans make provision if necessary to move other resources to ensure a minimum level of cover remains available in the surrounding areas. (Note that this is a UK-orientated answer. Always remember that other States are available.)

[alfaman]

There is an academic argument that another emergency might appear, and by downgrading an obvious priority order will be followed with similar ETAs. I personally would discount this as a TEN to the minus ‘x’ possibility. ....which I've seen happen...twice....

[parkfell]

parkfell,

Important here to differentiate between the priority state (MAYDAY v PAN) and any emergency response that the tower will call to meet the aircraft. They are two different matters. ATC can put on a Full Emergency response for what the flight crew might not deem an emergency (engine failure, One of four hydraulic systems failed, etc). Conversely, ATC might not call any response at all for a MAYDAY.

It all depends on the issue at hand.

MAYDAY v PAN is only used by ATC to determine the priority level of that flight among the other flights being dealt with at that time. We then use the detail of the problem to determine the emergency response.

I would suggest that an engine failure would result in an emergency being declared. There is however a school of thought that a simple flame out (loss of thrust) would only merit a PAN call on an Airbus 320.

Call me old fashioned, but when 50% of thrust/power is lost with a much higher percentage of performance that is a MAYDAY in my book every time.

Can you give me an example when a MAYDAY declared, and ATC “might not take any response at all”. I am curious.

[N90-EWR]

Can you give me an example when a MAYDAY declared, and ATC “might not take any response at all”. I am curious.

"We're out of Colombian coffee!"

:p

[parkfell]

"We're out of Colombian coffee!"

:p

intentionally left blank

[letMfly]

Can you give me an example when a MAYDAY declared, and ATC “might not take any response at all”. I am curious.
Several years ago at Aberdeen an inbound helicopter made a rather panicky MAYDAY call on first contact with me on the TWR around 8 miles from the airfield , “unable to lower the landing gear”. At the time, our local instructions stated that for helicopters making a MAYDAY call at that stage of flight an “Aircraft Accident Imminent” must be declared by ATC to the emergency services, however, based on previous experience with similar circumstances I delayed this until the intentions of the captain were established. A much calmer voice from the cockpit stated, “we’ll just hold offshore and try to sort it out”. Ten minutes later the problem was sorted, gear down and a normal approach and landing made.

[parkfell]

Several years ago at Aberdeen an inbound helicopter made a rather panicky MAYDAY call on first contact with me on the TWR around 8 miles from the airfield , “unable to lower the landing gear”. At the time, our local instructions stated that for helicopters making a MAYDAY call at that stage of flight an “Aircraft Accident Imminent” must be declared by ATC to the emergency services, however, based on previous experience with similar circumstances I delayed this until the intentions of the captain were established. A much calmer voice from the cockpit stated, “we’ll just hold offshore and try to sort it out”. Ten minutes later the problem was sorted, gear down and a normal approach and landing made.

Interesting that an emergency was declared when it was.
Tell ATC that there is an issue which needs to be resolved using the ‘QRH’ (non normal checklist). Hold offshore.
If unsuccessful then declare it.

[letMfly]

Interesting that an emergency was declared when it was.
Tell ATC that there is an issue which needs to be resolved using the ‘QRH’ (non normal checklist). Hold offshore.
If unsuccessful then declare it.
Yes, it struck me as a bit of an over-reaction by the pilot on the initial call but it certainly raised my adrenaline levels in what was an already incredibly busy traffic situation. If I had just acknowledged the MAYDAY and carried out the required actions, it would have meant instant runway sterilisation, go-arounds, delays to inbound and outbound traffic and a full call-out of all the emergency services. The local instructions relating to helicopter emergencies were swiftly amended to allow more leeway in decision making.
To answer the original question - in forty odd years of controlling, this is the only incident I know of where a MAYDAY call has led to no action by ATC.

[back to Boeing]

I would suggest that an engine failure would result in an emergency being declared. There is however a school of thought that a simple flame out (loss of thrust) would only merit a PAN call on an Airbus 320.

Call me old fashioned, but when 50% of thrust/power is lost with a much higher percentage of performance that is a MAYDAY in my book every time.

Can you give me an example when a MAYDAY declared, and ATC “might not take any response at all”. I am curious.

from a deep and distant dark memory from air law loss of more than 33% of power plant is an automatic mayday. 1 engine on a twin is always a mayday. Anymore engines and it’s a “depends”.

however in practical world I’ve had 2 situations in my career. 1 was a full mayday with loss of multiple hydraulic systems that we would never have downgraded. The other we lost some electric systems which led to downgraded flap extension (landed with reduced flap) but we were empty so we were still landing at a lower speed than with a normal traffic load. We hadn’t declared a pan or a mayday but we were returning to departure airfield and we told them exactly what was happening. We told them we were still expecting to make a normal landing and being able to vacate at the normal exit with no issues hindering our return to stand. We were still met with the full blues and two’s.

Now personally from a pilot perspective If I need to I’ll declare a mayday, and not bother downgrading till I’ve **** down and deal with the paperwork later.

I fly all over the world, not everyone understands a pan and I don’t want the additional mental maths of “is it a pan, is it a mayday, what exactly does my ops manual say again”. Mayday and be done with it.

[letMfly]

Now personally from a pilot perspective If I need to I’ll declare a mayday, and not bother downgrading till I’ve **** down and deal with the paperwork later.


Yup, MAYDAYs can be stressful!

[back to Boeing]

In the case of my mayday the first thing we did after securing the aircraft was head to the local shopping mall to buy civvies so we could go to the pub and get s**tfaced. Freudian slip if I’ve ever done one.

[good egg]

As a simple point of note, at my unit, if the aircraft in question is airborne then ATC can upgrade/downgrade the incident as deemed appropriate.
If the aircraft is on the ground it is the Airport Fire Service’s responsibility to upgrade/downgrade the incident.

There are many factors involved in the response to each emergency by outside services (including, perhaps for hospitals, moving existing patients, clearing non-urgent operations, etc.). It seems eminently sensible to downgrade an incident once ‘facts’ are established. On the other hand, you could play it out.

Those are decisions we make. That is part of our job.

[Gonzo]

I would suggest that an engine failure would result in an emergency being declared. There is however a school of thought that a simple flame out (loss of thrust) would only merit a PAN call on an Airbus 320.

Call me old fashioned, but when 50% of thrust/power is lost with a much higher percentage of performance that is a MAYDAY in my book every time.

Can you give me an example when a MAYDAY declared, and ATC “might not take any response at all”. I am curious.

As ATC, I don’t care what is declared by the crew for a 50% loss of power in terms of emergency response, my procedures will say what I have to declare as the emergency response (Local Standby or Full Emergency) based on the actual problem. If the crew declare a MAYDAY or PAN they’ll be given the appropriate priority over over traffic. I’ve had a 50% loss of power come in without declaring anything at all, but I still put on a Full Emergency.

Likewise for partial hydraulic failures, we’ve put Full Emergencies for those many times without any priority being declared by the crew.

I’ve also had MAYDAY declared for a sick passenger...this required no emergency response.

I still feel some here are conflating state of urgency with emergency response.

[FlightDetent]

I still feel some here are conflating state of urgency with emergency response. This sentence may be the first time great number of "us" heard about the difference between the two. If I had not overheard a conversation between ATC and ARFF folk by pretty much co-incidence years ago that I could not make any sense of, myself included.