RIP Capt. Al Haynes.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.

[Speed of Sound]

R.I.P. dude!

[Gipsy Queen]

Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.

Remarkable indeed. These were no children of the magenta and for which 185 souls on board must have been profoundly grateful.

[mattler]

They say we should never meet our heroes... if that were a rule, then Capt. Haynes was definitively the exception.

'Had the privilege of having a one on one dinner with him back in 2002. I was only 20, but it remains one of the highlights of my career to this day.

Not only did he and his colleagues accomplish something remarkable on that fateful day in Sioux City, but he continued to enrich others by giving freely of his time. He was truly a hero, mentor, and inspiration.

Rest in peace Captain Haynes, and Godspeed.

[slf4life]

Rest In Peace Captain, you earned it and then some.

[568]

Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.

I once had the pleasure in meeting Captain Al Haynes at a safety seminar. A most unassuming and quietly spoken man who exuded great passion for safety in aviation but also outside of his profession. He deeply cared about "people being prepared" for such disasters as earth quakes and spoke at many venues on this very subject.
R.I.P Captain Al Haynes

[josquin]

Rest In Peace, Captain Al Haynes

[vilas]

RIP Capt. Haynes. A good pilot that he was was even an excellent human being.

[hoistop]

When I was just starting my aviation career, I had a privilege of having a beer with him back in 1994 in Oshkosh. What he told me, changed my way of thinking on procedures, checklists-orderly approach to anything.
Will be grateful forever.
Rest in peace Capt. Haynes.

hoistop

[inducedrag]

Rest In Peace Captain

[A0283]

They did a great job indeed. Nice to hear that the impression he made was also true in real life.
The lessons learned were not only on the piloting side. The accident helped in supporting safer design solutions that were already there, and future designs.

[rubik101]

RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.

[ironbutt57]

RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.

obviously you've never walked through one of those "flat cornfields"" if you had, you might realize how ridiculous your idea is, also first responder services in that "flat cornfield" might be hindered by their ability to reach the scene....sorry buddy, this crew made the best decision....

[capngrog]

RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.

"Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless!

Cheers,
Grog

[50 ft radio]

" I been flying jets since 68 and never had anything happen like this." Capt Al RIP

[wongsuzie]

It was powered all the way to the corn field.No gilding.

[212man]

Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully

Posted on what? Pretty sure there were no internet bulletin boards in 1989.

"Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless! Quite! A bizarre comment

[Smalahove]

Posted on what? Pretty sure there were no internet bulletin boards in 1989.Usenet newsgroup, perhaps?

[bud leon]

RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.

I'm not surprised your opinion was widely condemned. The fact that 185 survived is the story here. It's really outrageous given what those guys did to get the plane down.

This incident is used as a case study of effective emergency management. Bringing the plane into an airport saved many lives. Not taking anything away from Capt Haynes or the crew, because this was an exceptional example of crew resource management, a big factor in the survival rates of this incident was the efforts of Sioux City to engage in comprehensive emergency response planning and response which was led by Gary Brown, the Woodbury County Disaster and Emergency Services director. He is an unsung hero of this incident, and someone Haynes has said is the true hero. Disaster arrangements all around the world have been modeled on Gary Brown's emergency planning, which would not have worked anywhere near as effectively if the plane was "glided" into a random cornfield.

It's such an outstanding example of how people can and should respond to critical incidents in the cockpit and on the ground.

[Feathers McGraw]

Worth stating that the crew were forced to use asymmetric power on the remaining engines to maintain control, rolling off power on both engines on final may well have been the cause of the wing drop and subsequent cartwheel on touchdown.

So easy to recommend a different course of action, but don't forget that Captain Haynes did say, when asked which runway he wanted to use "you want to be particular and make it a runway huh?"

RIP Captain Al Haynes

[testpanel]

I was just a FI starting my flying career, building hours in the early ´90s.
One day i got the opportunity to join a lecture AL gave at Langley AFB, VA.

Al introduced himself and let us first see and hear what happened before giving a lecture so simple and strong i have never experienced again, i cannot remember how long it took, but i do remember the tapes, the real recording with ATC!

The moment I heard ATC talking I thought " I think I know this guy!"

AL`s lecture was amazing, will never forget it!
And he did it in so simple words, as it was "normal" to him, just to do HIS and his crew´s job.
I learned a lot that evening, and still carrying it with me, because that lecture you don't get in flight school nor CRM-courses nor from fellow colleagues .....
from nobody!

2 days later I did (i think) an IR training flight with a guy that was an ATC controller in Newport News airport, it was the ATC guy that offered AL even a highway close to the airport in case they could not make it or needed an option (the guy I heard on the tape from AL` lecture)
This ATC guy (sorry bud, i forgot your name, its in my logbook but i am away from home...) left his hectic NY ATC place for a quiet Iowa...... and than got this on his hands....

To the family of AL, I am sorry for your loss, but you all can be proud of him, at least HE showed me some real CRM

RIP AL!

[Turbine Overheat]

May he continue to fly with the eagles
RIP

[vilas]

His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. I don't think anything can be more ridiculous than this. Everyone only tries to save lives but that's generally not possible unless the aircraft is kept in one or at least a few pieces. Gliding is also flying. With controls failure with a tendency to roll what Haynes did is nothing short of miracle.

[Joejosh999]

RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
Their control surfaces were damaged and/or fixed in such a way that gliding was impossible. They needed significant power (asymmetric) just to prevent the aircraft from rolling onto its back.
No gliding available.

[MichaelKPIT]

...and someone Haynes has said is the true hero.

Indeed. And Captain Haynes would always begin his lectures by honoring the 110 people who perished in the accident. Truly a great man. RIP.

[Akrapovic]

"Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless!

Cheers,
Grog
Welcome to Pprune. . .. .

[ironbutt57]

Welcome to Pprune. . .. .


no kidding!!!!!

[Atlas Shrugged]

rubik101 said:........Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating .....
No it doesn't. You're an idiot.

[His dudeness]

I don't think anything can be more ridiculous than this. Everyone only tries to save lives but that's generally not possible unless the aircraft is kept in one or at least a few pieces. Gliding is also flying. With controls failure with a tendency to roll what Haynes did is nothing short of miracle.

+1. Taking the struggling aircraft to place without obstacles and rescues services was the best decision he could have made under the circumstances. Ironical enough, the aircraft did in the end rest in a - CORNFIELD. This crew made a super job.

[Lord Farringdon]

Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone,....

Your a pilot Rubik and I'm not. So on this esteemed forum I should just keep my fat mouth shut, but in this case have you ever wondered why you were the subject of such opprobrium and why you still continue to be? May I suggest you search for the missing logic in your argument since at the moment it seems like you would have taken this deeply stricken airliner and its precious cargo into a remote paddock and because physics is ...well physics, you would have suffered exactly the same low speed controlability issues that Captain Haynes and his erstwhile crew did. Except the unknowns of your cornfield probably would have solicited a much worse outcome and this is before we even consider that you have removed yourself from the life support systems that are encapsulated in our emergency response teams at the airfield. This aircraft should not have still been capable of being flown, but it was. Not to take anything away from Sully or the recent Russian A320 crash, but in contrast these events left the crews with quite flyable aircraft if you accept that flight time was extremely limited. Capt Haynes and the crew of AA96 (an earlieer DC10 cargo door blow out event) were both left struggling with aircraft that no longer wanted to remain in stable flight.The teamwork, ingenuity, personal skills and ability and most importantly, the 'don't give up' attitude, in both of these cases avoided complete disasters and saved far more lives than you give credit for Rubik. I throw your own quote back at you, 'there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations".

I'll close the flight deck door on my way out.

[noske]

Flight Safety Foundation point out a guest article he wrote back in 1991 for one of their publications: United 232 (https://flightsafety.org/ap/ap_jun91.pdf)
Ten pages well written and worth reading. And even including some humor:
By then, we were about 14 seconds into the episode, and Bill said to me, “Al, I can’t control the airplane.” [...] I then said the dumbest thing I ever said in my life: “I’ve got it.”

[SeenItAll]

Rubik: Just a few points about gliding into the ground. To do that in a controlled fashion, you need to have the ability to use your tail control surfaces to flare the plane to a slower speed, And to not stall at this slower speed, you need to be able to deploy your flaps. This plane had none of these options available. They could not slow below 200+ kts and keep the plane in the air. They could not raise the nose other than by increasing engine thrust. While gliding might have been a good idea if they could dump speed down to 120 kts., but they could not. And as we know, KE = (1/2)*m*(v^2). So they had close to 3 times as much kinetic energy to deal with as in a controlled ditching. It was a miracle that they could even get the first impact with wings close to level.

[Akrapovic]

Pre those God-awful Air Crash Investigation shows. . . . a decent documentary on Sioux City .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s20NvLGrV8s

[Daddy Fantastic]

RIP Captain Haynes.

Blue skies and fair winds.

[cavuman1]

Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....

- Ed :ok:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....

- Ed :ok:
I don’t doubt Captain Bob Welliver will be on hand to join the party to welcome Captain Haynes.
Respect
David

[ironbutt57]

Your a pilot Rubik and I'm not. So on this esteemed forum I should just keep my fat mouth shut, but in this case have you ever wondered why you were the subject of such opprobrium and why you still continue to be? May I suggest you search for the missing logic in your argument since at the moment it seems like you would have taken this deeply stricken airliner and its precious cargo into a remote paddock and because physics is ...well physics, you would have suffered exactly the same low speed controlability issues that Captain Haynes and his erstwhile crew did. Except the unknowns of your cornfield probably would have solicited a much worse outcome and this is before we even consider that you have removed yourself from the life support systems that are encapsulated in our emergency response teams at the airfield. This aircraft should not have still been capable of being flown, but it was. Not to take anything away from Sully or the recent Russian A320 crash, but in contrast these events left the crews with quite flyable aircraft if you accept that flight time was extremely limited. Capt Haynes and the crew of AA96 (an earlieer DC10 cargo door blow out event) were both left struggling with aircraft that no longer wanted to remain in stable flight.The teamwork, ingenuity, personal skills and ability and most importantly, the 'don't give up' attitude, in both of these cases avoided complete disasters and saved far more lives than you give credit for Rubik. I throw your own quote back at you, 'there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations".

I'll close the flight deck door on my way out.


very well said, you have better "aviation judgment" than Rubik, if indeed he is a pilot...(hopefully he is not)

[criticalmass]

A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.

[ironbutt57]

A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.



yes indeed....

[tow1709]

SLF here. Reading the CVR transcript http://www.tailstrike.com/190789.pdf, there was initially an (unnamed) Captain riding in the jumpseat, who contributed early on to getting the aircraft under some degree of control. He later gave way to Capt Fitch and then went to sit back in the cabin. Did he survive the subsequent landing?

[iggy]

I believe he suffered permanent paralysis after hitting the cockpit dashboard during the crash, but I'm to be corrected.

[Paul Lupp]

RIP Captain Al, gone but not forgotten.

To paraphrase something I saw elsewhere this morning:
"Great old pilots never die, they just go on to fly at a much higher altitude"

[TWT]

Links to a documentary ( 6 parts) with Denny Fitch in this article

https://www.flyingmag.com/pilots-places/pilots-adventures-more/lifesaving-united-captain-dennis-fitch-dies-69/