Easyjet pilot grounded for whatsapp message to friends

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

I hope they get the help they need.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0823/1070459-easyjet-pilot-grounded-after-saying-he-was-suicidal/

[Auxtank]

I hope they get the help they need.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0823/1070459-easyjet-pilot-grounded-after-saying-he-was-suicidal/

"they" ???

Really doesn't need to be a thread on this. This is someone's life - they threw out the flags, they got noticed and action was taken. End of story.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

Really? what about those who don't 'throw out the flags' and get noticed?

[OldnGrounded]

"they" ???

Really doesn't need to be a thread on this. This is someone's life - they threw out the flags, they got noticed and action was taken. End of story.

"They" is now being used as a "singular neuter" pronoun, because . . . well, because English doesn't have one and, for some reason, younger folks find constructions like "he or she" unsatisfactory. I hate it and think it's simply stupid, but it seems to have become standard usage.

I agree, Auxtank. There's nothing to see here. Everything seems to be working just as we would hope.

[yanrair]

The point here is how well will he be treated by the company. If treated well, more troubled souls may come forward. If badly, the opposite. He needs family support, medical treatment and the full range Of psychological interventions. And in the fullness of time with recovery may fly again.
Cheers
ryr

[krismiler]

After the German Wings crash in 2015 no one is going to take any chances and I think that's the end of his licence. He's probably looking at a ground job from now on.

If you need professional help then go to the appropriate place, social media isn't that place. The better employers have counselling available from professionals for flight crew with problems such as stress or alcohol. Sadly, he's almost certainly blown his career when he could have sought help and been taken off the roster for a while instead.

[giggitygiggity]

Sadly, he's almost certainly blown his career when he could have sought help and been taken off the roster for a while instead.

Oh do p**s off. Comments like 'blown his career' are why people keep quiet and don't bring their issues to the company. That aside, I'm not sure a whatsapp group is really social media, yes it's online, but a private conversation isn't inherently social media.

[krismiler]

Do you really think that a Whatsapp group is a better option for someone with a problem than a professional counsellor ? Whilst confidentiality is part of the process, any counsellor would recommend he be taken off the roster if they thought he was a safety threat. This could have been done quietly and he could have received the help he needed and been returned to flying status if deemed fit.

By effectively going public with his issues he's backed the company into a corner and they have no other option than to ground him

[Global Aviator]

It never amazes me the amount of people that look at me like I am crazy when I tell them I have used counselling!

The more of us who can show it as normal and not a stigma the better.

We all have our own reasons, mine was fairly simple I was so confused about chasing jobs/money/??? That chatting to an independent person was fantastic. Helped me get my priorities right.

[Mike Oxbig]

This is quite blatantly an advert but if you do not wish to contact your company, you can contact “Stiftung-mayday.de” which is a confidential organisation using pilots and cabin crew to help council people. They offer CISM Counselling - Critical Incident Stress Management. Go to their website and have a look through their FAQs. It is something supported by my company (500+pilots) and is openly talked about during each Ground Recurrent.

[Herod]

I for one wish him a good outcome. Hopefully the company will provide help and support. With the right intervention, he could be back in the seat again, given time.

[Sobelena]

For those who advocate that after good councelling he could go back on the line, I have this question: Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.

[Semreh]

Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.

I'd far prefer to fly with someone who has acknowledged their mental health issues and believes themselves, with the agreement of mental health professionals, to be in control of their mental state than with someone who has unacknowledged and/or unmanaged problems, especially if they are problems that are actively being hidden.

Given the prevalence of mental health issues in the general population, it is not unlikely that there are at least some pilots that should not be flying. This means it is very important to provide the greatest possible support to those who put their hands up and ask for help so that others feel encouraged to do so. This is not about judging people, it is about achieving the best outcomes.

[PerPurumTonantes]

For those who advocate that after good councelling he could go back on the line, I have this question: Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.
Would you fly with someone who had had chicken pox in the past? What about if they'd had a heart attack? What if they were short sighted and needed glasses?

I felt suicidal once for a couple of days after a relationship breakup. I got over it. Would you fly with me? What about someone who was diagnosed bipolar? What about someone who's just a miserable git?
​​​​​
Mental health is the same as physical health. It's not black and white. Some things are temporary and go away with no risk to ops. Some things don't. And some things are completely out of the question.

[krismiler]

He would need to be assessed by a psychiatrist approved by the CAA before returning to flying duties. The psychiatrist would have to be satisfied that he would put his own family onboard with the pilot concerned, and would be mindful of any liability he might incur if his decision proved incorrect, so very little benefit of the doubt would be given. It's now gone beyond Chief Pilot/Director Flight Operations level as his fitness to hold a medical certificate has been brought into question.

[Radgirl]

It matters not on iota how it was picked up - the treatment of the illness is the same. Of course ideally he should have contacted his AME if he felt unable to speak to his employer but he was ill.

when his illness is treated and he is no longer ill, why should he not work provided the regulator is satisfied?

I am interested in Easyjet's comment All pilots are licensed under aviation regulators and as part of this are subject to extensive regular medical assessments which include mental health assessments . My AME must have forgotten this part of the examination last time....and the time before...and the time before

[CaptainProp]

I'd far prefer to fly with someone who has acknowledged their mental health issues and believes themselves, with the agreement of mental health professionals, to be in control of their mental state than with someone who has unacknowledged and/or unmanaged problems, especially if they are problems that are actively being hidden.

Given the prevalence of mental health issues in the general population, it is not unlikely that there are at least some pilots that should not be flying. This means it is very important to provide the greatest possible support to those who put their hands up and ask for help so that others feel encouraged to do so. This is not about judging people, it is about achieving the best outcomes.

A lot of you should read this again. And again. If people and companies had this attitude there would be a lot of people helped. People who desperately need help but who haven't been strong enough to step forward because they are afraid of being judged and "blow" their career.

CP

[krismiler]

My AME must have forgotten this part of the examination last time....and the time before...and the time before

Some authorities are starting to look in pilots mental health as part of the annual/6 monthly medical. Approved doctors have guidelines and may refer a candidate for further investigation if in any doubt. Subtle questions may be asked in general conversation and responses noted, rather than a session on the couch.

The Chief Pilot is seldom a trained mental health professional but is expected to decide on someones fitness to operate his company's aircraft. He should be able to make lower level decisions such as time off if a pilot is going through a marriage break up or is dealing with the death of a close relative. Peer counselling or someone approved by the union could be appropriate in some cases requiring a more indepth response.

Alcohol or prescription drug abuse at a lower level would require a company grounding and treatment of the employee by an outside specialised agency.

Illegal drug abuse would definitely have to involve the regulator as a breach of the law would be involved.

Anything suicidal requires immediate grounding and the regulator to be involved, followed by a lengthy period of assessment to determine if a return to flying duties is going to be possible at all. The liability issues at stake are horrendous if a disaster were to happen and comparable to what Boeing are going through with the MAX and its MCAS.

[CaptainProp]

It matters not on iota how it was picked up - the treatment of the illness is the same. Of course ideally he should have contacted his AME if he felt unable to speak to his employer but he was ill.

when his illness is treated and he is no longer ill, why should he not work provided the regulator is satisfied?

I am interested in Easyjet's comment . My AME must have forgotten this part of the examination last time....and the time before...and the time before

Is it not only a requirement to check new employees according to new regulations?

CP

[medod]

For those who advocate that after good councelling he could go back on the line, I have this question: Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.

Absolutely yes. I hope that, post-Germanwings, all airlines have stronger procedures to protect the public from suicidal pilots than just grounding the ones who admit their feelings before locking the door and setting FL000.

[dnx]

We should all take notice. This 'case' is interesting because it shows that social-media is not the proper place to air your troubles and/or grievances.
Peers, colleagues and/or friends who are not qualified to (assess someones mental state or any other 'legal' issue for that matter) make these decisions can cause enormous harm no matter how well intentioned.
This person should have sought counseling if he/she was this desperate. His/her 'peers' in the WhatsApp group could not fathom his/her state of mind and thus decided to alert his/her employer.
If he/she had sought counseling hopefully things would have been handled more discreetly and after a while he/she would have been allowed to resume duty.
Now with all the media attention such becomes very difficult even if there is no actual risk anymore.
I recall a case where someone spend almost 8 years awaiting trial for something his colleagues thought he confessed to.
"I know you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure if you realize that what you heard is not what I meant". So true!

[Hotel Tango]

Would you fly with someone who had had chicken pox in the past? What about if they'd had a heart attack? What if they were short sighted and needed glasses?

For me that reply to Sobelena doesn't quite compare. My answers to your question would be yes, yes and yes. However, someone who may want to deliberately take their life and take a plane full of pax with them is something else. Is an alcoholic not always regarded as an alcoholic regardless of the fact they may not have touched a drop for 10 years or more?

[Meester proach]

I know of at least three pilots who have killed them selves , it’s not immune to this sort of thing than any other industry.

the difference with eurowings was, he decided that wasn’t enough and wanted to be a mass murderer as well. Piece of ####.

[mikewil]

I know of at least three pilots who have killed them selves , it’s not immune to this sort of thing than any other industry.

the difference with eurowings was, he decided that wasn’t enough and wanted to be a mass murderer as well. Piece of ####.




You summed it up perfectly. The thing people don't seem to get is that wanting to end your life, and intending to commit mass murder are two unrelated things. There have been many airline pilots over the years who have taken their lives, those who choose to do it in an aircraft have gone and hired an aeroclub Cessna, not taken down an A320 full of pax.

The more airlines (and regulators) that treat mental health issues as an "instant grounding", the more pilots will choose to suffer in silence and the more unsafe the overall outcomes will be.

[Clop_Clop]

Can be tragedies on the home front and no mental illness also, impossible to know and this is not the forum for it but more in general...

Good advice earlier trying to talk to someone mature non-judgemental person with some life experience themselves...

[FarTooManyUsers]

part of the Germanwings case that i found particularly shocking was that Andreas Lubitz's own doctor had declared him "unfit for duties" - but the doctor didn't report this to the airline.

i haven't heard anything from EASA / national governments since then to change the doctor's duty of confidentiality ... to a duty of reporting concerns to the employer.

[Denti]

part of the Germanwings case that i found particularly shocking was that Andreas Lubitz's own doctor had declared him "unfit for duties" - but the doctor didn't report this to the airline.

i haven't heard anything from EASA / national governments since then to change the doctor's duty of confidentiality ... to a duty of reporting concerns to the employer.

Unfit for duty is the general term on your sick note in germany. Now, every MD can contact the police or relevant authority if he deems the public or the patient at risk, and especially with doctors dealing with mental issues that is not completely uncommon so they are very much aware of that. The rules in that regard have not changed in Germany, and probably will not do so, even if they do, there is absolutely no need to tell your MD your occupation, so he might be very unaware of the risks any diagnosis could involve. That is why peer to peer programs have been introduced as a requirement by EASA, and the requirement to assess the mental state of any pilot during his medical.

Any mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.

[nolimitholdem]

All pilots are licensed under aviation regulators and as part of this are subject to extensive regular medical assessments which include mental health assessments

I am interested in Easyjet's comment . My AME must have forgotten this part of the examination last time....and the time before...and the time before

I'm pretty sure that all AME's have been required to ask probing questions along the lines of "has one experienced anxiety or depression since one's last medical examination" for some time now. I can't remember the exact wording but it would certainly serve as the cursory "mental health assessment" referred to. I've heard it at EASA medical renewals for several years now at least.

So yeah, perhaps your AME forgot, but if so it doesn't speak highly of adherence to standard.

[OldnGrounded]

Any mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.

In fact, it would be outright dangerous, unless, of course, employers were mandated to respond in ways that wouldn't effectively mean automatic destruction of careers.

[Black Pudding]

Oh do p**s off. Comments like 'blown his career' are why people keep quiet and don't bring their issues to the company. That aside, I'm not sure a whatsapp group is really social media, yes it's online, but a private conversation isn't inherently social media.

A WhatsApp group is social media

[hans brinker]

A WhatsApp group is social media
No, it's not. I am on a WhatsApp with my Mom and Dad so we can text for free internationally. How is that even remotely close to Instagram

[hans brinker]

mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.

No, I can see that, and I am a big fan of HIMS and no-fault reporting, because punishment for mistakes leads to not reporting of mistakes, and that doesn't make it better.
Someone with previous mental health issues not being on a shorter leash: not ideal either.

[Black Pudding]

No, it's not. I am on a WhatsApp with my Mom and Dad so we can text for free internationally. How is that even remotely close to Instagram

The company I work for class any WhatsApp messages sent to a group of 2 or more as social media. We have had colleague Get into bother because of messages being sent on WhatsApp groups.

[AerocatS2A]

Your company’s definition is stupid. They may as well classify email as social media,

[krismiler]

Company emails are sent to approved people and password protected, sharing any message received or giving someone else your log in details is a disciplinary offence.

Once proprietary information is shared outside the company’s control, it’s effectively social media. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, even PPRuNe can be accessed by anyone able to create an account. Even if you restrict your posts to friends or approved followers, there is no control over over them being passed onto third parties.

A flight attendant might take a picture of a pilot sleeping in the flight deck and post it to a company cabin crew WhatsApp group, another member thinks it’s funny and shares it on Facebook, her younger brother then shares it with his school mates, eventually it’s in a newspaper. The picture is traced back because another flight attendant informs her manager about the original WhatsApp post. The girl who took the picture gets fired.

Most companies have rules for social media and its best to follow them if you want to keep your job.

[AerocatS2A]

Sure, but if I send a group of friends a personal email (not company email, not company email address, not proprietary company information) saying I’m not feeling well mentally, that’s not “social media” and I don’t see how sending a group message via a messaging app is either. What if I just write a hand written note, photocopy it, and send it to the same people, is that “social media”?

I will endeavour to follow company rules on social media but that doesn’t stop me thinking some of them are stupid.

[krismiler]

If you had information that another one of your company's pilots mental state was disturbed and he was talking about suicide, would you feel compelled to inform yout chief pilot or not ?

[AerocatS2A]

Not at first. My first step would be to get them to seek appropriate counselling. If that didn’t work then yes I’d have to inform the company. What does this have to do with whether a Whats App group is social media or not?

The key point is that he reached out to someone, whether it’s friends or a professional doesn’t matter provided he gets the help he needs.

By the way, a hard copy photo can also be spread and end up in the public domain. It’s not actually “social media” that is the problem, sharing any compromising information, in any form, to anyone, removes control from you and is a risk. Social media just happens to be a convenient method for sharing and many people have little understanding of the privacy or otherwise of their social media accounts.

[Black Pudding]

All it takes is one person to take a picture of a message you sent (by whatever means that was) and then send that picture to someone else. It’s very simple, before posting any message by whatever means, think about the implications for your company if the general public becoming aware of it. If you bring your company’s image into disrepute, damage or harm, then chances are you’ll get fired. You may even find your own career has come to an end.

[Deltasierra010]

WhatsApp is not “social media” like Twitter or Facebook which may be received by many others, it is a one to one encrypted message. So it must have been the intended recipient who informed the airline, and in my opinion quite rightly. There is actually quite a large section of the population that have suicidal thoughts but not many have the means to do it readily available.
For a firearms licence in the U.K. your mental health is checked not just by your GP but your family as well, because you have the means commit suicide or kill others, I see no reason that the same standards should not apply to airline pilots, an employer that has any negative evidence simply must take action, it’s tough on the individual but there is life after airline pilot.

[EEngr]

Once proprietary information is shared outside the company’s control,
But was this WhatsApp post proprietary company information? It was something about his mental state that he shared with friends. Possibly not during working hours or on company property.

WhatsApp may be getting a raw deal here. What would one expect if a pilot shared his depression with a buddy over a pint at the pub? And his buddy subsequently called the airline and shared his concern?

[Water pilot]

I'm kind of shocked that there are "two sides" to this discussion. I think that the action taken by everybody in this situation was appropriate, the pilot's comments should be taken at least as seriously as a passenger who makes a 'joke' at the checkpoint where we all have to take off our shoes and be virtually stripped.

Flying is a different sort of job and not everybody can do it. There are very few jobs where you can affect so many lives so quickly, and pilots should be held to a much higher standard of physical and mental health than stockbrokers, computer programmers, or even ship's captains. There are millions of people who are affected by epilepsy (which in many cases is treatable) who are valuable, smart, productive citizens but probably not the best choice for a job where crisis involves multiple flashing lights. I understand that the vast majority of people with mental health issues are not a danger to themselves or others, and the vast majority of people who have some form of suicidal ideation are not going to be mass murderers. However, flying is a job where the consequences of putting the wrong person in the pointy end are severe enough to outweigh whatever moral injustice comes from discriminating against people with mental illness.

To answer the question about flying with somebody with treatable schizophrenia, the answer is "certainly not!" The drugs used to treat schizophrenia are precisely the sort of drugs that one should not take while flying!

Psychology is an inexact science, many would argue that it is not a science at all (disclaimer, my parents were psychologists and I studied it fairly seriously in college as a career path.) Perhaps someday we will know enough about humans to know when somebody who is serious enough about suicide to talk about it with friends is actually at risk of committing suicide (perhaps with a bunch of people unwillingly along for the ride) but the research indicates that we are not there yet.

[Deltasierra010]

“Over a pint in the pub,” with a mate. As a mate I would not be liable for any future incident in the way the company would, so I would hear his story and decide wether his state of mind was a risk. If it was just depression and feeling down due to relationship issues for instance I wouldn’t take any action, if he was in a serious state and talking about suicide, he would be advised to stop flying and sort his issues out.
If I was a fellow pilot I would keep close contact with him, ultimately if I thought he was a risk I would blow the whistle.

[EEngr]

If a person has suggested they are feeling suicidal; it’s a cry for help. What they do not need is an amateur psychiatrist who is unable to provide the skilled help required.
This is a good point. On the other hand, we should give some credit to a buddy sharing a pint who can read emotional clues and toss out what might have been a flippant remark. Not so easy to do when the message comes in as plain text. Maybe lacking an obligatory wink emoticon.;) This sort of thing would be way above my amateur psychiatrist's pay grade. Particularly where numerous lives might be at stake.

[hans brinker]

The company I work for class any WhatsApp messages sent to a group of 2 or more as social media. We have had colleague Get into bother because of messages being sent on WhatsApp groups.

So a group text between 3 people is social media?

[krismiler]

Whilst undertaking a training Captain course, we students were told that should any psychological problems emerge with our trainees we were "not to go there" and to tell them to seek professional help. Issues such as past abuse or alcoholism could come to light and we could easily make things worse by having a go at a problem we weren't trained to deal with.

Talking once seriously, or a few times jokingly about suicide means that person needs help and it's up to mental health professionals to provide that help. Immediate grounding is the only option for a pilot and it's up to the medical department to take it from there.

[jumpseater]

So a group text between 3 people is social media?


Correct.

Social media is a website or application that enables users to create and share content or to participate in social networking. After Facebook the second most popular social media app is WhatsApp. This forum is ‘social media’ as are blogging platforms like Wordpress, and image sharing sites like Instagram.

As has been pointed out a private conversation can easily become public, be it WhatsApp or email, through intentional or unintentional action. Therefore don’t post pissed, and think before you hit ‘send’, once it’s left your phone/PC/tablet you have no control over that data at all.

With any such discussions regarding health and similar personal information, you need to treat it as you would your bank account details and passwords. It’s very easy to be blasé about the likes of Facebook and the information you’re potentially sending to the world using it, you can read it in this thread. Social media is incredibly useful, and potentially very damaging used carelessly. As an example, any of you whom have used the private message system here to discuss events or possibly individuals, you have no guarantee that information won’t be reposted for example by the recipient, here or elsewhere.

Think before you post!

[Denti]

As has been pointed out a private conversation can easily become public, be it WhatsApp or email, through intentional or unintentional action. Therefore don’t post pissed, and think before you hit ‘send’, once it’s left your phone/PC/tablet you have no control over that data at all.

Rather far fetched definition. With that every phone call, text, conversation is basically social media. All of those can be recorded and shared publicly. There is a difference between the whole world with Facebook, or just two carefully chosen recipients with either a phone call, text, whatsapp message, or even snail mail. Of course, the Whatsapp status is quite different, as anybody who has your phone number in their contacts can read that.

[jumpseater]

Rather far fetched definition. With that every phone call, text, conversation is basically social media. All of those can be recorded and shared publicly. There is a difference between the whole world with Facebook, or just two carefully chosen recipients with either a phone call, text, whatsapp message, or even snail mail. Of course, the Whatsapp status is quite different, as anybody who has your phone number in their contacts can read that.

Not far fetched at all. The ability to record, retain and publish ‘media’ images, words, sound is evolving rapidly. A few years back a phone call was just that, no record apart from number dialled and duration, I’m aware of a person who now records all his calls via an app. As he’s in law enforcement it’s been useful when some of his ‘clients’ have called him! The UK law society has practice guidelines here https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/social-media/ possibly useful reading for some people to understand the implications of today’s technology if used inappropriately or maliciously, and to appreciate what ‘social media’ encompasses.

NB for context I occasionally do media/journalistic work.

[Denti]

Well, to be clear, with that definition everything we do and say is social media. And in a way it is. Now, that removes freedom of speech because everything, no matter what and in what circumstances, can be used against you. Be it in jest, being out after a few drinks, or enjoying a nice night with company.

I guess in the UK people are a lot more relaxed about stuff like that than elsewhere. In germany recording calls without expressive consent of all participants is illegal and can land you behind bars (and in that case out of a job as pilot, even if it is only a suspended sentence you would not be allowed to go airside. Whatsapp messages are actually protected by the same kind of law, however, larger groups (certainly not 3) would be seen as either public or limited public statements. Even normal ATC radio is protected and listening to it without any need is actually illegal, broadcasting ATC radio via the internet will be shutdown and possibly prosecuted by a government agency.

That said, someone mentioning to friends that he is suicidal should be pointed very directly to the relevant professional help, and in case of pilots that is of course the mandatory peer to peer program that protect the job while things get sorted out without the company knowing what exactly is the issue.

[hans brinker]

Not far fetched at all. The ability to record, retain and publish ‘media’ images, words, sound is evolving rapidly. A few years back a phone call was just that, no record apart from number dialled and duration, I’m aware of a person who now records all his calls via an app. As he’s in law enforcement it’s been useful when some of his ‘clients’ have called him! The UK law society has practice guidelines here https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/social-media/ possibly useful reading for some people to understand the implications of today’s technology if used inappropriately or maliciously, and to appreciate what ‘social media’ encompasses.

NB for context I occasionally do media/journalistic work.

From the website you quote:

Social media are web-based and mobile technologies that turn communication into active dialogue. There are many different types of social media channels, which attract specific audiences for different purposes. These include:

forums and comment spaces on information-based websites, for example BBC Have Your Say, the Law Society Gazette or Roll on Friday
social networking websites such as Facebook and LinkedIn
video and photo sharing websites such as Flickr, Instagram and YouTube
weblogs, including corporate and personal blogs
micro-blogging sites such as Twitter and Tumblr
forums and discussion boards such as Yahoo! Groups or Google Groups
online wikis that allow collaborative information sharing such as Wikipedia
any other websites that allow individual users or companies to publishing or share content with other users.

Suspiciously absent are text and WhatsApp. I know the reason: IT IS NOT SOCIAL MEDIA!!!!
If you address your message at a specific person, or a few select persons it is not SOCIAL MEDIA. Of course your media could end up on the whole internet, but what you are saying is regular snail mail is social media just because you scanned and posted your grandma's birthday card.
Intent of wider distribution is required for the social part to apply.


NB for context I occasionally think.


(sorry for the screaming)

[Fursty Ferret]

For those who advocate that after good councelling he could go back on the line, I have this question: Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.

Yes. And I often do.

[Water pilot]

Yes. And I often do.
That doesn't give me a good feeling about flying, which I have to in a few weeks.
I won't go into details but a family friend who is a brilliant psychologist had a patient who became famous for all of the wrong reasons.

[hans brinker]

Yes. And I often do.

I will have to disagree. The risk is just not worth it. Even if the chance of something happening is extremely low, for aviation that is probably still high. Fatal accidents are down to 60 per TRILLION passenger revenue kilometer. Having a known risk allowed to continue is not the right thing. I feel bad for the pilots affected by mental health issues, but our job is probably the worst for risk of injury or death to other people in case of mishaps due to mental health. If the eurowings guy would have had pretty much any other job, he would have been the only fatality.

[jumpseater]

Well, to be clear, with that definition everything we do and say is social media. And in a way it is. Now, that removes freedom of speech because everything, no matter what and in what circumstances, can be used against you. Be it in jest, being out after a few drinks, or enjoying a nice night with company.

I guess in the UK people are a lot more relaxed about stuff like that than elsewhere. In germany recording calls without expressive consent of all participants is illegal and can land you behind bars (and in that case out of a job as pilot, even if it is only a suspended sentence you would not be allowed to go airside. Whatsapp messages are actually protected by the same kind of law, however, larger groups (certainly not 3) would be seen as either public or limited public statements. Even normal ATC radio is protected and listening to it without any need is actually illegal, broadcasting ATC radio via the internet will be shutdown and possibly prosecuted by a government agency.

That said, someone mentioning to friends that he is suicidal should be pointed very directly to the relevant professional help, and in case of pilots that is of course the mandatory peer to peer program that protect the job while things get sorted out without the company knowing what exactly is the issue.

Denti, we are very similar with the legal aspects of call recording and ATC recording in the UK too, I don't know the specifics of my police contact and their personal recordings, but I have no reason to doubt he was being truthful, he does interesting work. I agree the crew member concerned hopefully is getting the support required, it would be a real shame if this were an off the cuff comment taken out of context, but it does show the potential impact of using social media platforms whichever form they take.

[Deltasierra010]

WhatsApp is very useful for private messages between individuals or small groups it is secure , there is no point in using WhatsApp if you want large number of recipients to see the message. Other contacts in your address book cannot see the message, the only way it can be seen by others is if they gain access to your smartphone.
Do remember you are putting your trust in the recipient, forward, copy and paste can be used to send the message to others, which is probably what happened

[KRviator]

For those who advocate that after good councelling he could go back on the line, I have this question: Would you feel comfortable to fly (both as crew or pax) with a pilot who has a mental history? In truth it's quite a dilemma for the airline.Damn straight, I would. And why such an emphatic answer? Because said colleague would feel comfortable raising a potential mental health issue as they have had counselling for it before, and not only kept flying, but kept their job. So they know 'the system' works and has helped them before, so they will seek help again if they need to. What scares me more are (in order) tired pilots, and those that have issues but can't or won't declare them or seek help for fear of losing their licence or job.

[FlightlessParrot]

Jumpseater, for some purposes WhatsApp might count as social media, but the security model is totally different--which is why it, and the similar Telegram, are popular with people who do NOT want their communications becoming public, for good and bad reasons.

Sure, if you tell someone something on WhatsApp, they might spread the news. But the same applies to information sent over a secure company email system. It's a human issue, not a tech one. Currently, it is being suggested that the President of the United States may have shared a classified satellite image on Twitter. Twitter sure is social media, but the escape of information (if there was one) happened from a US Government communication system which is, presumably, intended to be secure and not social media at all, and it was not the government official who put it on the Govt system who was responsible for the dissemination of information.

This is a basic distinction, and no amount of general discussion of digital media will change the fact that WhatsApp is designed to be, and is fairly successfully implemented to be, a private means of communication to limited groups of participants, who have to be permitted to join by the owner of the group. It only begins to look like social media if you post private communications to a group owned by the Burnley Pigeon Fanciers Society, and if you do that you probably print out work emails and leave them in the pub.

[Denti]

Jumpseater, for some purposes WhatsApp might count as social media, but the security model is totally different--which is why it, and the similar Telegram, are popular with people who do NOT want their communications becoming public, for good and bad reasons..

One thing that is actually true is that one tiny part of Whatsapp is public and could therefore be considered social media in the way that you put out a public statement without knowing who can read it: the status. So all those videos, memes and pictures people put in there, can be read by anyone who has the number of the poster. No matter if they know each other, if the sender ever gave his number etc. But i do agree, the message part is largely not social media although large groups could be put into that category as they are quite often along social structures (school year, family, work group etc). However, even there you know who is in the group and you can moderate your language and information disclosure accordingly. Just from someone who managed chat groups with a few hundreds members, whatsapp is really not a good tool for that, use Telegram, much better administration options and ease of use, not to mention it is not limited at 255 members, but of course less safety as it does not have end-to-end encryption.

In contrast, putting something on Twitter, Facebook or even on the status within whatsapp is not controlled at all. With a single tweet Trump publicly confirmed the specs of the KH 12 series of spy satellites and their capabilities because of course that picture (showing a mishap at an iranian space launch site) was analyzed within minutes offering quite juicy information for those of us who are space nerds. Which is of course a nice example of disclosing formerly classified information to the whole world.

[Maoraigh1]

Not a professional pilot, but had worked with a with a colleague who had mental health problems, until he got early retirement for health issues. He was never suicidal. He was sometimes awkward. As a pax I wouldn't worry too much about many mental health issues.
But suicidal (or having a grudge against humanity) as an adult is different for flightdeck. I'd prefer not.
I wouldn't be so bothered about an actual suicide attempt in early teens.

[megan]

From what the article says I wonder if the statement "probably going to kill myself" could have been taking out of context. Did a recent outback caravan trip and after changing two shredded tyres I felt like killing myself as well, in fact felt as though I was already well on the way after the exertion. ;)

[parkfell]

This thread about a mental health issue, and the action taken by Easyjet, might be in response to an event reported by the AAIB in their September 2019 bulletin about a company ac flying into GLASGOW last September where the FO had an anxiety attack and vacated the flightdeck.

The company will be acutely aware of the importance of dealing without delay in a holistic way when such issues occur.