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slfool
26th Aug 2019, 19:12
A pilot fell ill at the controls of an aeroplane flying from Manchester to the Atlantic island of Madeira, forcing the flight to be diverted to northern Portugal.The airline, Jet2, confirmed that the aircraft had to land in Porto on Monday, adding that a replacement aircraft and crew had been dispatched to get passengers to their proper destination. According to one report, which Jet2 did not confirm, the other pilot was joined in the cabin by a passenger, who helped land the plane. They made the announcement that there had been an incident on the flight deck and another Jet2 pilot who happened to be on holiday came forward from the back of the plane,” MailOnline quoted one of the passengers as saying.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/26/jet2-pilot-ill-manchester-madeira-plane-porto

foxmoth
26th Aug 2019, 20:32
You have to admire the Suns ability to overdramatise! “Hero off duty pilot lands plane” - completely ignores the fact there would have been a first officer who should have been more than competent to do this by himself, yes good that the off duty guy gave a hand, but not really “hero” stuff!

DuctOvht
27th Aug 2019, 06:15
How do you know it wasn’t the First Officer who was ill?!

beardy
27th Aug 2019, 06:19
How do you know it wasn’t the First Officer who was ill?!
Is Funchal still a Captains only landing?

Final 3 Greens
27th Aug 2019, 06:26
Pilot ill, diversion. One donk quits, press on for 2h20.

I know which airline I'd prefer to travel with.

foxmoth
27th Aug 2019, 06:41
:ugh:How do you know it wasn’t the First Officer who was ill?!

then of course you still have the Captain who should be even more competent!

Nightstop
27th Aug 2019, 07:46
Yes, FNC is Captain only approach, landing and take off. Anyway, medical care is far more comprehensive on the Mainland than Madeira. Incapacitation of a Flight Crew member is a Mayday where I’m from, LAND ASAP.

sonicbum
27th Aug 2019, 12:03
Apparently the Cpt was incapacitated.

Off Duty Pilot Helps Out When Jet2 Boeing 757 Captain Falls Unwell (https://simpleflying.com/?p=35622?utm_source=pop)

foxmoth
27th Aug 2019, 19:21
A rather more balanced report from the DT!

sudden twang
28th Aug 2019, 03:48
Nightstop
I’m not sure I’d use the terminology Land ASAP.
I’ve not seen an FM or OM say that.
I hope they make a full and speedy recovery.

Bam Thwok
28th Aug 2019, 05:28
Nightstop
I’m not sure I’d use the terminology Land ASAP.
I’ve not seen an FM or OM say that.
I hope they make a full and speedy recovery.

Here’s the correct “terminology”...


Declare an emergency ("MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY") and plan to land at the nearest suitable airport. Consider the following factors:

Increased workload.

Weather conditions.

Familiarity with alternate airports.

Nightstop
28th Aug 2019, 06:33
If the ECAM could detect pilot incapacitation, it would display LAND ASAP. Are you suggesting we fly onwards for hours with only one conscious pilot?

homonculus
28th Aug 2019, 08:22
Are you suggesting we fly onwards for hours with only one conscious pilot?

For those rotary pilots who fly single crew, at night, into unsurveyed sites with sick patients in the back, this could be an interesting debate :mad:

Sipping my G and T in the back I would rather the FO flew into an airport he was familiar with, especially if relatively inexperienced. The risk of a second incapacitation is statistically tiny over a matter of hours.

CEJM
28th Aug 2019, 09:22
For those rotary pilots who fly single crew, at night, into unsurveyed sites with sick patients in the back, this could be an interesting debate :mad:

Sipping my G and T in the back I would rather the FO flew into an airport he was familiar with, especially if relatively inexperienced. The risk of a second incapacitation is statistically tiny over a matter of hours.

Comparing apples and oranges. The rotary pilot who flies single crew is operating an aircraft that is certified for single crew operation. A B757 is not certified for single crew operation, hence why they landed at a suitable airfield.

Funchal is a captains only landing so even if the F/O pushed on, he would not have been able to land in Funchal and had to divert to Porto Santo. Another airfield he might never have been.

Whilst statistically the risk of a second incapacitation might be small, it really depends on the reason for the incapacitation. It could be due to a batch of dodgy food or drink. Statistically it might be a very small risk but not a risk that should be taken lightly at 38000 feet.

deltahotel
28th Aug 2019, 09:38
And in the meantime the incapacitated pilot is not receiving medical care. Does anyone think it unreasonable to divert so that a sick passenger can receive treatment?

foxmoth
28th Aug 2019, 10:44
And in the meantime the incapacitated pilot is not receiving medical care. Does anyone think it unreasonable to divert so that a sick passenger can receive treatment?
that echoes my thoughts that people seemed to forget about the poor guy who was ill, yes it may have just been some sort of faint, but how do you know until it has been properly checked out!?

EcamSurprise
28th Aug 2019, 13:45
For those rotary pilots who fly single crew, at night, into unsurveyed sites with sick patients in the back, this could be an interesting debate :mad:

Sipping my G and T in the back I would rather the FO flew into an airport he was familiar with, especially if relatively inexperienced. The risk of a second incapacitation is statistically tiny over a matter of hours.

Which has nothing to do with multicrew aircraft operations. Why even post?

p.s when one engine fails the second usually doesn’t fail either. Usually..

sudden twang
28th Aug 2019, 15:06
If the ECAM could detect pilot incapacitation, it would display LAND ASAP. Are you suggesting we fly onwards for hours with only one conscious pilot?

Nope not what I was getting at.

MarcK
28th Aug 2019, 15:35
Comparing apples and oranges. The rotary pilot who flies single crew is operating an aircraft that is certified for single crew operation. A B757 is not certified for single crew operation, hence why they landed at a suitable airfield.

Funchal is a captains only landing so even if the F/O pushed on, he would not have been able to land in Funchal and had to divert to Porto Santo. Another airfield he might never have been.

Whilst statistically the risk of a second incapacitation might be small, it really depends on the reason for the incapacitation. It could be due to a batch of dodgy food or drink. Statistically it might be a very small risk but not a risk that should be taken lightly at 38000 feet.
By not "certified for single crew operation" are you implying that it cannot be flown by a single pilot? I guess every flight will have to carry a spare pilot so that there will (almost) always be 2 up front.

OldnGrounded
28th Aug 2019, 16:13
By not "certified for single crew operation" are you implying that it cannot be flown by a single pilot? I guess every flight will have to carry a spare pilot so that there will (almost) always be 2 up front.

Of course it can be flown by a single pilot -- unless and until the workload increases (for some reason) to the point where it can't.

Are we really having an argument about whether or not it's a good idea to "land nearest suitable" when one of two pilots on a commercial airliner has become incapacitated?

Back at NH
28th Aug 2019, 16:19
Are we really having an argument about whether or not it's a good idea to "land nearest suitable" when one of two pilots on a commercial airliner has become incapacitated?

It would appear so :rolleyes:

Nightstop
28th Aug 2019, 16:24
The best we can do here is try to educate the ignorant. You never know, they may have enough money to buy their way into the right hand seat one day.

MarcK
28th Aug 2019, 17:08
Of course it can be flown by a single pilot -- unless and until the workload increases (for some reason) to the point where it can't.

Are we really having an argument about whether or not it's a good idea to "land nearest suitable" when one of two pilots on a commercial airliner has become incapacitated?
Well, there was the arguement above as to what constitutes "suitable". A "captain only" airport? One in which the PF has never landed before? etc.

Smalahove
28th Aug 2019, 17:09
Funchal is a captains only landing so even if the F/O pushed on, he would not have been able to land in FunchalUh, are you sure about that?

parkfell
28th Aug 2019, 17:11
A sensible decision was made to divert given the Capt incapacitation.
Make full use of the automatics to reduce the workload.
Declare Emergency

Good outcome in the circumstances. Is there really any more to say?
Rotary pontifications are irrelevant to this particular thread.

Nothing more to see ~ move on

Hotel Tango
28th Aug 2019, 17:47
Uh, are you sure about that?

Have you read anything? FNC is a Captains only landing according to company SOPs. Had there been no other alternative an exception may no doubt have possibly been made. As it was, there was an abundance of alternatives and they took the best one. End of!

Smalahove
28th Aug 2019, 19:27
FNC is a Captains only landingWhen the captain becomes incapacitated, the FO immediately becomes PIC, and if he decides there's an emergency, he can land wherever the hell he likes.

As it was, there was an abundance of alternatives and they took the best one.In this case, yes. I took the post as a blanket statement that the FO can't land there. My bad.

beardy
28th Aug 2019, 20:14
When the captain becomes incapacitated, the FO immediately becomes PIC, and if he decides there's an emergency, he can land wherever the hell he likes.

In this case, yes. I took the post as a blanket statement that the FO can't land there. My bad.

I take it you have never been to Funchal. In theory in an emergency you are correct, in practice you wouldn't consider it. In normal ops FO is not permitted to land at Funchal and for good reason.

Council Van
28th Aug 2019, 20:24
Porto was close, the Southerly Runway has an ILS and it is a big city with quality medical facilities.

What more could you want when your Captain is taken ill. Get them.down safely and on the way to hospital ASAP. It appears as if it was a job well done.

Smalahove
28th Aug 2019, 20:33
In theory in an emergency you are correct, in practice you wouldn't consider it.Oh, I dunno, if the captain was having a heart attack and Funchal was the nearest airport, I would definitely consider it.

Chesty Morgan
28th Aug 2019, 20:42
Oh, I dunno, if the captain was having a heart attack and Funchal was the nearest airport, I would definitely consider it.
Spot on, go anywhere you like in an emergency. And having operated to Funchal for the last 7 years it's really not that big a deal.

beardy
29th Aug 2019, 04:45
And having operated to Funchal for the last 7 years it's really not that big a deal.

Ah well, I will have to disagree with you. Funchal can bite badly, sometimes when you least expect it. IMHO it's not an airfield to be considered as 'not a big deal.'

Nightstop
29th Aug 2019, 06:19
I too have operated into FNC, for at least 15 years on a regular basis. It can be a really nasty place to land safely. I don’t know what the weather was on the day, but even when forecast calm / Cavok it can turn rapidly to the opposite. There’s no credit in risking the lives of everyone to save one person, I wouldn’t want an F/O to do so for me.

parkfell
29th Aug 2019, 06:25
Spot on, go anywhere you like in an emergency. And having operated to Funchal for the last 7 years it's really not that big a deal.

What has not been disclosed is the experience of the FO.
Pleased that you find FNC 'a piece of cake' with your 7 years experience.
The FO made a perfectly sensible decision; just what is it that people don't get......?

Move on ~ nothing more see here.

sudden twang
29th Aug 2019, 06:52
Whilst saving up to buy my way into the RHS someday I thought I’d improve my ignorance by reading some books on how to be an ex hamster Sky god. It differentiated between LAND ASAP and land at nearest suitable.
It had a chapter on pilot incapacitation and pointed out that there would not be any monitoring so a methodical and careful style was needed rather than a high workload environment. It suggested ( not the case here) that the first available option is not always the optimum solution and gave the example of the crewmember severing a finger. An island airport was close but discussion with medical experts suggested a diversion to a major hospital on the mainland, a considerable distance away, was a better decision and the finger could be reattached.

The Jet 2 event had a successful outcome well done to all and hopefully a speedy recovery for the incapacitated pilot.

The book also said that one of the behavioural markers of ignorance was thinking a 757 had an ECAM ( only joking) 😉

Bam Thwok
29th Aug 2019, 07:23
Spot on, go anywhere you like in an emergency. And having operated to Funchal for the last 7 years it's really not that big a deal.

Been P1 into FNC for over 20 yrs and that place can bite you in the bum, BIG TIME.....especially Rwy 23 below 200’ !!

The F/O, in case, did good and I’m sure the company will praise him/her for his/her professional handling of the incident.

What I’m sure of is that the “Captains ONLY Landing and Take off” is a Portuguese State restriction, not a Company one and all “approved” Capt’s must be checked out in a sim first and possibly also a check ride in with an approved Training Capt before operating “solo” into the island.

Interesting debate about the use of FNC in an emergency though ......
Listened to a RYR a couple of years back heading North from TFS declaring a “medical emergency” and requesting diversion to FNC.
The Portuguese sector controller asked if the Capt was approved for FNC ?
The reply was “negative” and he was then denied a landing at FNC but given the option to divert to the next island, Porto Santo (PXO).
What makes that option interesting is that if, after landing in PXO, the medical case is deemed to serious for the Island’s own medical services to deal with, the casualty is then flown by the Portuguese emergency services to FNC, where I believe there are better facilities !

Now....... what if you’ve got a fire onboard and FNC is closest ???

uncle dickie
29th Aug 2019, 07:23
Whilst saving up to buy my way into the RHS someday I thought I’d improve my ignorance by reading some books on how to be an ex hamster Sky god. It differentiated between LAND ASAP and land at nearest suitable.
It had a chapter on pilot incapacitation and pointed out that there would not be any monitoring so a methodical and careful style was needed rather than a high workload environment. It suggested ( not the case here) that the first available option is not always the optimum solution and gave the example of the crewmember severing a finger. An island airport was close but discussion with medical experts suggested a diversion to a major hospital on the mainland, a considerable distance away, was a better decision and the finger could be reattached.

The Jet 2 event had a successful outcome well done to all and hopefully a speedy recovery for the incapacitated pilot.

The book also said that one of the behavioural markers of ignorance was thinking a 757 had an ECAM ( only joking) 😉

Are there many ex Hamble (BA) chaps under 65, & still flying ~public transport ?

The AvgasDinosaur
29th Aug 2019, 09:30
As a humble but relatively high time SLF. This first officer is the kind of pilot I want and would choose for 0A or 0B if I or those I cared about were sat anywhere else on board.
Respectfully submitted for consideration
David

Lord Farringdon
30th Aug 2019, 10:57
Hey Mods, feel free to delete this post if considered slightly off topic but I wondered just what official and legal capacity is appointed to an FO whose Captain has become incapacitated. I realise that without anyone else up front that the FO has to do everything possible to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers and crew but are there any civil aviation regulations or company policies that govern the assumed elevated status of the FO in these situations? I mean has he actually assumed command for all intents or purposes or is he/she simply conducting the flight as if the Captain had instructed them to do so?

Flying Wild
30th Aug 2019, 15:24
Hey Mods, feel free to delete this post if considered slightly off topic but I wondered just what official and legal capacity is appointed to an FO whose Captain has become incapacitated. I realise that without anyone else up front that the FO has to do everything possible to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers and crew but are there any civil aviation regulations or company policies that govern the assumed elevated status of the FO in these situations? I mean has he actually assumed command for all intents or purposes or is he/she simply conducting the flight as if the Captain had instructed them to do so?

Most operations manuals have a job spec for a First Officer stating that they will assume the duties and authority of Pilot In Command if necessary during the flight. This would cover the FO in this instance as the Captain, once deemed incapacitated, generally would not be allowed to have input into the remainder of the flight even if seemingly recovered.

Final 3 Greens
30th Aug 2019, 17:48
Oh, I dunno, if the captain was having a heart attack and Funchal was the nearest airport, I would definitely consider it.

I wouldn't, I'd go to Porto Santo, which has a sodding long/wide runway without the complications of FNC, an emergency medical centre to look after the ill pilot and is minutes flying time away from Funchal, if he needs to be transferred.

Better to take the easier landing and safeguard 100 odd people, whilst offering a good solution for the pilot.

Then again, I'm only a PPL, but I have paxed in and out of both those airports and they are chalk and cheese.

Herod
30th Aug 2019, 19:07
As far as I can see, the Funchal/Porto Santo argument is irrelevant. The aircraft wasn't near either airport. The nearest was Porto, an excellent decision by the F.O.

BTW, for outsiders who may be on here, in most airlines (certainly the ones I have worked for) the F.O. is trained to exactly the same standard as the captain. Less experience perhaps, but no less capable.

Having said that, yes, Funchal is captains only.