Heads Up! Fighter Pilot: The Real Top Gun

[Meester proach]

It’s all very good to encourage the ladies but what the percentages overlook is the fact Ive know very few ladies who are actually interested in aircraft and all the technical stuff that comes with it, and there is not much you can do about that besides press ganging .

[beardy]

It’s all very good to encourage the ladies but what the percentages overlook is the fact Ive know very few ladies who are actually interested in aircraft and all the technical stuff that comes with it, and there is not much you can do about that besides press ganging .
Up until relatively recently female expectations were culturally conditioned and they still are, but to a lesser extent. In the short term positive discrimination can change that culture of expectation. You will then find more females willing to express interest knowing that they can achieve what were stereotypical male roles.
This may not be popular amongst what you see as 'ladies' but it is progress towards equality of opportunity and achievement.

[just another jocky]

Whatever. Grow up.



It doesn't take anything from me for you to show yourself up.

[just another jocky]

On the brighter side, sent one of the next generation first solo today, also another last week. They're brighter, more motivated to be better, fitter and generally more highly qualified than me and others way back when. How they stay motivated in the current climate beats me but I salute them and am very envious of the wonderful aircraft they have yet to master.

[vascodegama]

Beardy-just a small point, positive discrimination is illegal; positive action is not.

[Specaircrew]

You left the toilet seat up again....

Interestingly, telling your other half that she left the toilet seat down again gets little sympathy :-(

[beardy]

Beardy-just a small point, positive discrimination is illegal; positive action is not.
Thank you for that, my mistake.

[57mm]

Whatever the ins and outs of the previous posts, when I left the Typhoon force 5 years ago, there were already 2 female drivers......and total warriors they were too....

[FantomZorbin]

In view of all the above, I think we should all be grateful to Miss Shilling … just saying ...

[Treble one]

On the brighter side, sent one of the next generation first solo today, also another last week. They're brighter, more motivated to be better, fitter and generally more highly qualified than me and others way back when. How they stay motivated in the current climate beats me but I salute them and am very envious of the wonderful aircraft they have yet to master.

Isn't the Typhoon force expanding JAJ? Room for another experienced pilot maybe?

[hunterboy]

As long as everyone meets the same standards, I don’t really see a problem? After all, it’s not as though they are going one to one in a knife fight.

[plastic_bonsai_again]

Liking this thread and the series but a few of questions if I may.

I noticed in the F-35B hover the pilot was struggling to look over the cockpit sill at the landing spot and yet they mentioned earlier the helmet enabled then to view through the fuselage - did they forget about looking straight down?

I've not seen any evidence of simulators being used on the T2 or F-35 training - both of which I believe have extensive facilities or am I wrong?

Is it better to keep the head level with the horizon or the wings in turning flight?

[beardy]

As long as everyone meets the same standards, I don’t really see a problem? After all, it’s not as though they are going one to one in a knife fight.
If 'they' met the same standard would it matter if 'they' went 'one to one in a knife fight'?

[hunterboy]

At the risk of being misinterpreted, I’m pointing out it’s different being a “total warrior” flying a drone or an F-35, compared to say fighting hand to hand against a well trained male opponent set on killing you .
However,I would suggest when it comes to brains vs brawn, the female of our species is at a definite advantage.

[Training Risky]

At the risk of getting my head shot off again as I raise it above the parapet...

I was in the TA infantry before the RAF and for a short period the Infantry Training Centre at Catterick experimented with putting women in (TA-only) infantry roles. I can honestly say without glee that they struggled to reach the basic standards of fitness while carrying bergans, webbing and rifle over a week's field exercise. This was the mid-90s well before all roles were opened up.

Applying this experience to downed aircrew is hard as it is different to the infantry role (on your own (stand fast RW/ME), no heavy kit, possibly deep sausage-side, trying to E&E instead of actively closing with the enemy, etc). And I was never trained in hand-to-hand knife fighting...

[just another jocky]

Isn't the Typhoon force expanding JAJ? Room for another experienced pilot maybe?

:} Thanks for the vote of confidence but I suspect my ageing body would be unable to withstand the rigours. And I never understood BFM or ACM even in the Tonka so there's no chance. I'm still hopeful for a pax ride though.

[Mil-26Man]

At the risk of getting my head shot off again as I raise it above the parapet...

You didn't 'put your head above the parapet'. You said something incredibly stupid and ill-informed, and got rightly called out for it. That's all.

[ExAscoteer]

What has being Infantry got to do with being Aircrew?

A complete non-sequitur logical fallacy.

[Mil-26Man]

What has being Infantry got to do with being Aircrew?

Indeed, what has being TA got to do with being infantry?

[Treble one]

:} Thanks for the vote of confidence but I suspect my ageing body would be unable to withstand the rigours. And I never understood BFM or ACM even in the Tonka so there's no chance. I'm still hopeful for a pax ride though.

I'm sure someone will fix that for you JAJ. Now you've mentioned it....

[57mm]

JAJ, BFM or ACM in the Tonka, even in the F3, was an oxymoron.....

[alfred_the_great]

Says you. Take your hand-wringing ‘call-out culture’ elsewhere.

Oh bless, the snowflake has been caught out and now he wants to be treated as a special old man.

Off you go, put your head below the parapet again...

[Dominator2]

57mm
BFM or ACM in the Tonka, even in the F3, was an oxymoron

Not quite sure that is the correct use for oxymoron?

Any way, In the Tornado (any variant) BFM/ACM was essential since the aircraft's turning performance was so poor. Typhoon, F35 and beyond, with a HMS and ASRAAM the requirement for conventional combat is far reduced.

Back to "Fighter Pilot" - Is tonight going to prove that AAR is NOT dangerous or are we to witness some more jousting using poor technique?

[ExAscoteer]

While AAR might be described as pushing wet spaghetti up a reluctant cat's arse, and having been 'in prod' on occassion for upwards of 20 minutes, it was work, but hardly any more dangerous than any other form of close formation.

That's what get's me about media luvvie edited series like this, the almost hysterical commentary.

[Bob Viking]

Try and find a friend who has nothing to do with aviation and ask them what they think of AAR.

Explain to this person that AAR involves plugging a small tube into a small receptacle whilst flying at hundreds of miles an hour in all weathers. Watch their face and see what they think of it.

To those of us that have done it we are aware that it is a skill that can be practiced and becomes almost routine.

The programme is not intended to explain AAR to us though is it? It is trying to explain it to the wide eyed public who think what we do is a black art.

If the producers made a dry, emotionless programme to please pilots it wouldn’t get funded.

Surely this isn’t too hard to understand?

BV

[ExAscoteer]

BV, thankyou for your condescending reply. :*

My point being is that it is not necessary to ramp up 'Ooh AAR is the most dangerous thing you can do in Military Aviation' (it isn't as I am sure you are aware), but maybe to discuss it in a non-hysterical way.

Surely that isn’t too hard to understand?

[Bob Viking]

I didn’t think I was being condescending. Sarcastic maybe.

Anyway, the producers are trying to attract viewers who watch Love Island and X Factor.

Whilst the style may seem annoying to you, it must be what the perceived audience wants.

Honestly, whilst I have whinced at a couple of moments, I think the programme has been very good. I think everyone in it has come across very well.

As for ‘Danners’, I don’t envy her having to put herself out there on national TV. She will have known the attention it would attract and probably didn’t ask to be put in the position.

BV

[Training Risky]

Oh bless, the snowflake has been caught out and now he wants to be treated as a special old man.

Off you go, put your head below the parapet again...
The only snowflake here is you, bringing your weird language of 6th-Form victimhood and gender studies to a grownup forum.

[Training Risky]

Indeed, what has being TA got to do with being infantry?
Nice. Tell that to the families of Army Reserve soldiers killed on ops. Jog on.

[Homelover]

Never criticise another pilot’s AAR. You are only ever a ‘spokes’ away from eating humble pie...
Hat’s off to all my Navs who sat in the back while I lunged, jabbed, chased, and generally made life difficult for us.
But I never missed. Obvs ��

[weemonkey]

I blame all those MPs subverting democracy for the tetchiness in here tonight...

[Easy Street]

If I was on the Typhoon Force, I’d be pretty miffed at being portrayed as second-best in such a public way as tonight’s programme did in the role disposal sequence. It will form the bulk of the RAF’s combat power for decades to come and even the USAF recognises that a 4th/5th-gen mix is essential for mass. Considering both aircraft are single-seat multi-role and the huge investment in simplifying F35B STOVL, surely disposals are driven more by OCU input dates than student ability? If anything, I’d expect an older aircraft with poorer ergonomics and sensor fusion to place greater demands on the pilot.

[Tashengurt]

Watching the 1st episode and I see the serial on a Hawk T2 is blurred out. Why would that be sensitive?

[ExAscoteer]

Nice. Tell that to the families of Army Reserve soldiers killed on ops. Jog on.


A. What the **** would you know about that?

B. What the **** has that got to do with Military Flying?

Yet again a non-sequitur logical fallacy.

[Alsacienne]

It did seem a bit disappointing - almost a foregone conclusion - that Danners would not get her first choice. I wish her and her future colleagues all the best, and hope she will have a long and successful career on Typhoons.

[ExAscoteer]

The only snowflake here is you, bringing your weird language of 6th-Form victimhood and gender studies to a grownup forum.


It's not about Gender Studies you pillock it's about allowing all members of Society a chance if they are good enough. FFS!

As it happens the 2 best students I graduated were female and went on to be Nimrod Captains.

Tell me again, weren't you chopped?

If I was you I'd wind your fecking neck in for showing yourself to be a total pillock.

[Wrathmonk]

Watching the 1st episode and I see the serial on a Hawk T2 is blurred out. Why would that be sensitive?

My thought was for editing/continuity purposes- some of the RT chatter does not match the flying sequences (final episode had RT of “hitting the target on time” when it was, visually, a VRIAB at Valley).

As for role disposal - could it not be argued that those with better (pure) piloting skills go to the aircraft that have less electronic flying-assistant gadgets to help them?

[alfred_the_great]

The only snowflake here is you, bringing your weird language of 6th-Form victimhood and gender studies to a grownup forum.

Shoo, be off back to your cave.

Go back and kick the tyres, light the fires, last one up is a real man...

[Treble one]

Have very much enjoyed the programme. I think all three students came across very well as did everyone on 617 with the F-35.

I'm sure Danners was a bit gutted to get Typhoon, but , given the choice, I'd take that over F-35 anyday. And at least she didn't have to hold.

[unmanned_droid]

Clearly much of the flying sequences had nothing to do with the overlaid audio.

Also thought the perception given of the Typhoon being 'easier' than Lightning a bit off....the whole Danners will get there after she's had a bit more practice...

Quite liked some of the patches....especially the stranger things one.

I'm a little confused about passes with boards full of airmanship - especially the amount of look-out comments but then I'm in no position to comment on that now ( hey, doesn't seem to stop others though!)

[Easy Street]

I posted on this last night but it seems to have mysteriously disappeared! Anyway, if I was on the Typhoon Force I’d be miffed at the portrayal of Lightning as something for which Valley grads are “selected”, leaving the distinct impression that Typhoon is second-best in terms of standards irrespective of students’ personal preferences. Both aircraft are single-seat multi-role, and there has been huge investment in making F35B STOVL handling a far more straightforward proposition than Harrier. There is indeed an argument that the older platform with poorer ergonomics, displays and sensor fusion actually places heavier demands on its pilots.

I’d say it was likely that the intensely political balance between RAF and RN manning of the Lightning Force plays at least a smidgen of a role in these decisions. Although you would like to think they could manage that by inputting students to Valley in the correct ratio...

[Mil-26Man]

I blame all those MPs subverting democracy ...

Absolutely! Those ERGers who repeatedly voted against the Withdrawal Bill that would have delivered Brexit by now should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. That's what you meant, right?

[charliegolf]

Shirley any disappointment on Danners' part will be 'cos she's a fishead and won't be getting a rum ration any time soon. I hope she kicks the arse out of life on a Typhoon squadron.

CG

[Meester proach]

Up until relatively recently female expectations were culturally conditioned and they still are, but to a lesser extent. In the short term positive discrimination can change that culture of expectation. You will then find more females willing to express interest knowing that they can achieve what were stereotypical male roles.
This may not be popular amongst what you see as 'ladies' but it is progress towards equality of opportunity and achievement.


I think you’ll find with an absolute minimum of research that ladies can easy ascertain they can fly aircraft. That minimum of research would be an indicator of their motivation.

However, like I said the majority I encounter are simply NOT interested in the nuts and bolts stuff. I tried to get my girls interested, but they wanna be social media influencers....WTF that is.

[falcon900]

At the risk of an heretical comment, does the fact the "Danners" finds herself on Typhoon not highlight the absurdity of persisting with the RAF v RN charade with aircraft operations? In these days of swingeing cost cuts, there must be incremental costs associated with continuing with this "distinction without a difference" and surely we should now put this to bed? Factor in the scale of the respective operations, it seems even more ridiculous. Just saying....!

[Tashengurt]

However, like I said the majority I encounter are simply NOT interested in the nuts and bolts stuff. I tried to get my girls interested, but they wanna be social media influencers....WTF that is.
They should meet Mrs Tash, she's a mechanical engineer by trade, works as a Technical author and is passionate about getting other women into engineering.

[orca]

I think it would be fair to say that a Fleet Air Arm aviator should want to be streamed to the asset which can embark for many reasons - but top of which would probably come professional interests when it comes to long term career progression. This may come in the obvious form of time at sea and Deck Landings but also in the more subtle cases of having the right environment to prepare for command exams and being reported on in a way most conducive to progress.
I think that those that campaign for an amalgamation or similar of all Fixed Wing into one service have missed the point that a career develops you for what’s next as well as what’s now. Yes of course RAF pilots can land on a boat etc but until there is a cross service acceptance that senior aviation roles (currently) in the RN - in surface combatants, on battle staffs and in HQs can all be done, and will all be done, by RAF officers without harming their own career prospects (or any other downside) then the best fit is to have aircrew of both shades of blue progressing up their respective career totem poles. We’ve got two dirty great carriers for goodness sake - finding a way of reducing fixed wing SQEP and ‘Air mindedness’ in the RN would be lunacy.
Not that we haven’t tried lunacy in the past.

As for the broader point about streaming. We now have two options. New and old. 5th Gen and something else. I’m sure no one in the Typhoon force is particularly fussed what studes at Valley think about the two. There’s always been a sense at role disposals that some options are ‘less good’...just that the choice is now severely limited!!

[Duchess_Driver]

However, like I said the majority I encounter are simply NOT interested in the nuts and bolts stuff. I tried to get my girls interested

So true. When DuchessJunior1 was 16 I said to her “come on, I’ll teach you to fly.” Her response...? “Why?”

All in favour of equality in all areas but the problem as I see it is sometimes the need to be seen to be gender-neutral influences “hiring and firing”. Most of the women I have trained are just as good if not better than the majority of the blokes.

If I can make one final observation, most women seem to work harder/smarter than the blokes. As was said on last nights program - it’s nice to see those that may struggle with some elements but work hard to achieve their goals.

[beardy]

I think you’ll find with an absolute minimum of research that ladies can easy ascertain they can fly aircraft. That minimum of research would be an indicator of their motivation.

However, like I said the majority I encounter are simply NOT interested in the nuts and bolts stuff. I tried to get my girls interested, but they wanna be social media influencers....WTF that is.
Go and read Gina Ripon's book about the gendered brain. As a professor and research neurologist she is well qualified to pass opinion on the concept of how our brains develop.
If your girls have an interest in becoming social media influencers it is possibly due to the environment in which they grew up.

[Training Risky]

A. What the **** would you know about that?

B. What the **** has that got to do with Military Flying?

Yet again a non-sequitur logical fallacy.
A. Plenty of colleagues killed on the ground and a few in the air, so I don't need to justify myself to a kno66er like you. Do one.

B. I was using some relevant experience on the ground to try and answer post #264 which asked "As long as everyone meets the same standards, I don’t really see a problem? After all, it’s not as though they are going one to one in a knife fight." So back in your box...

[ExAscoteer]

Yet again you show youself up to be a total pillock.

As it happens I was a qualified CSRO so I know quite a bit about SERE. Generally speaking the girls were better than the boys at E & E, certainly at Camouflage and Concealment. In terms of R2I / CAC that's dependent upon personality and has damn all to do with one's sex.

SERE has **** all to do with being Infantry.

[dook]

AAR dangerous ?

I once had to stay plugged in for 35 minutes at 33,000ft in thick cloud.

Tiring yes - dangerous certainly not - and it was in a real Lightning.

...hat...coat...door...

[Underbolt]

Just thinking back to last night's episode, I think I remember there being five pictures on the role disposal board - other than Lightning and Typhoon I'm guessing Hawk and Texan creamie and 100 Sqn? But casting my memory back to the last (BBC?) series about Valley (Combat Pilot?), wasn't the favourite option for singlies a posting to Cold Lake for tactics and weapons training on the Hawk? In other words, was role disposal previously done between AFT and TWU, before a syllabus change? More to the point, I'm sure in that series a thumbs down meant starting the 'ceremony' again, including downing in one, which could get very messy if the powers-that-be saw a very different future in your stars. :yuk:

[Bob Viking]

What you saw on the BBC Combat Pilot Programme was a ‘Creaming and Streaming’. That used to happen after AFT. Nowadays everyone moves from AFT straight to TW (standby for ENJPPT to reappear) so the C and S is redundant.

The role disposal has always happened after TW. The game is at the discretion of the graduates or their course commander or both. The only constant is that alcohol will be involved and someone will get spoofed at some point.

BV

[oldbeefer]

I was really pleased to see daft games and loadsa booze still allowed in these PC days!

[Davef68]

Interesting that it mentioined the young RAF pilot had had a prior posting in the States.

[Homelover]

AAR dangerous ?

I once had to stay plugged in for 35 minutes at 33,000ft in thick cloud.

Tiring yes - dangerous certainly not - and it was in a real Lightning.

...hat...coat...door...
I guess that, in a real Lightning, you needed to be plugged that long to take enough fuel to get back to Binbrook. From the Waddington o’head.

....hat.....coat....door

[dook]

Actually it was a six hour flight.

And I ask all contributors here to refer to Lightning 2 and not Lightning.

[Meester proach]

That was a good series.
Im not sure I understand the RN lady going to a typhoon and the RAF chap to an F35 off a carrier but ho hum I’m sure they’ll do well.

Those parties must be a bit dull now as there’s not many options.

the other thing that struck me was the valley instructors seemed either 25 .....or 60.....how old do they let you carry on pulling G or is it a yearly medical or something ?

[Herod]

It seems I need to re-visit my RAF history. Some nice archive shots of Gibson and 617's Stirlings.

[DCThumb]

Actually it was a six hour flight.

And I ask all contributors here to refer to Lightning 2 and not Lightning.


Well.....if you want to be picky, the English Electric Lightning was the Lightning II as the Lockheed P38 Lightning was Lightning ‘I’ for the RAF....

However the (US designation F35) is just known as ‘Lightning’ in RAF service, presumably Lightning GR1, or FA1?

[langleybaston]

Actually it was a six hour flight.

And I ask all contributors here to refer to Lightning 2 and not Lightning.

It is of course the 3rd Lightning ............
did the RAF have any of Lightning 1 in service?

[Lono]

It is of course the 3rd Lightning ............
did the RAF have any of Lightning 1 in service?

Evaluated, ordered, then cancelled. A couple were delivered to the UK, but were ultimately transferred to the USAAF.

[sycamore]

lb, 3 were tested at B-D and rejected,returned to USA...no turbochargers fitted....

[BEagle]

I've only just managed to see it, having been watching the Johnson ar$e-kicking events for much of the last 2 days. But what an excellent last programme in the series!

Typhoon or F-35B....what a choice!

[ExAscoteer]

Certainly the 3rd program was the best of the 3.

[Meester proach]

Choose typhoon.
I’d want more than one engine over a war zone.

And it’s more pointy .....faster....

[Mil-26Man]

presumably Lightning GR1, or FA1?

FGR1 I'd imagine

[Bob Viking]

The twin engine vs single engine issue is a perennial argument.

I remember posting a link on another thread about it a while ago. The thrust of which (you see what I did there?!) was that the USAF had conducted a study of aircraft losses due to engine failure between F15 and F16. Guess which had more losses? Answer: F15.

The reason given is that if an engine were to fail catastrophically it will most likely destroy the other engine and probably the airframe with it. Two engines means twice the chance of failure.

In this day and age, engine reliability is so good (and the F35 engine is a serious bit of kit) that statistics will show that you can rely sufficiently on one engine to keep you safe.

Typhoon is an awesome aircraft in every respect and is getting better all the time. F35 is also an awesome aircraft but their roles are subtly different. If I were a student at Valley I would be delighted to be sent to either aircraft. As things stand right now though, given a choice I would take F35 purely because it’s the new kid on the block.

BV

[XR219]

FGR1 I'd imagine
I've never seen any official source refer to the F-35B in RAF/FAA service with any "mark number". The RAF website (never a reliable source for official designations anyway) calls it the "F-35B Lightning"; the RN website calls it the "F-35 Lightning". Note the "II" seems to have gone missing over the Pond, but strangely not the "F-35".

[just another jocky]

Equally strange that we refer to the new ac as the F35 rather more than Lightning (or Lightning II) yet the Typhoon is the Typhoon, almost never the FGR4.

[Mil-26Man]

The II has indeed been dropped by the UK

https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1056860889079525376?s=19

IIRC it was some time after the Typhoon entered service that it received its FGR4 designation, so maybe the Lightning's will come later also.

[Meester proach]

Slight thread creep....
that F35 , can our version do fully conventional landings or does it always have a bit of lift fan and vectored thrust.

Just wondering as it doesn’t have much wing so the app speeds maybe high ?

[Asturias56]

Always thought it a great pity they didn't name it after one of those interwar RAF aircraft...

The Grebe ... or the Welkin... or even the Knuckleduster....................

[Rhino power]

that F35 , can our version do fully conventional landings or does it always have a bit of lift fan and vectored thrust.

Just wondering as it doesn’t have much wing so the app speeds maybe high ?

Yes, the RAF/RN's F-35Bs land conventionally, as well as SRVLs and VLs. It has the same basic wing as the F-35A, but with the additional plumbing for the roll post ducts/nozzles...

-RP

[Underbolt]

Equally strange that we refer to the new ac as the F35 rather more than Lightning (or Lightning II) yet the Typhoon is the Typhoon, almost never the FGR4.

Yes, but F-35 is an aircraft, while FGR4 is just a mark number. If somebody mentioned 'GR1s in RAF Germany', you wouldn't know if that was Harriers, Jags or Tornado mud-movers. I don't think it's ever been common to use the mark number other than to distinguish between versions of the same aircraft, except for the two different flavours of Tornado, and even then it only really worked after the MLU as we didn't have anything else with GR4 or F3 after its name.

I reckon if we did give the JSF a proper designation it would have a much better chance of being called Lightning, but since we seem to be using the American name that's what's stuck.

Consistency seems to have gone out of the window recently. Hercules, Phantom, Sentry and Poseidon get British military designations, but not Globemaster or Lightning. Not sure about Rivet Joint or Reaper!

[Asturias56]

Always thought it was a bit silly having the same aircraft with different names in service with allies TBH................... tho the US has to some extent accepted "Dakota" and "Catalina"

The Canadians are wore tho - they change the name of EVERYTHING they buy

[orca]

I remember being in a debrief at a CQWI when a certain Sqn commander announced that as a result of his teams’ efforts that very day...some of which had been CQWI related, that the Typhoon would henceforth be the FGR4...the news was delivered very much in the way one might announce the end to world hunger. I think everyone in the hangar thought something along the lines of: ‘Oh’ or possibly ‘Does anyone have the ‘Irrelevant Button’ to hand?’

[Tankertrashnav]

The Canadians are wore tho - they change the name of EVERYTHING they buy

I always thought it strange that the Canadians chose the name Cormorant for the helicopter we call the Merlin. A bird which seems to spend as much time below the surface of the water as flying above it seemed pretty inapt.

Still, could have been worse - they might have called it the Shag!

[Herod]

"The Common Cormorant, or Shag, lays eggs inside a paper bag".. You can look up the rest.

[Chiefttp]

I thought the program was very well done, especially the segments that conveyed the stress and pressure that the students were exposed to during training. As a Yank Air Force heavy driver I was also curious about why some of those students took 8-9 years to get to that point in their training. Are they counting 4 years of University? I entered the USAF in November 1985 and was awarded my pilot wings in March of 1987. If I had tracked fighters, it would have been about another year of various training until I hit an operational squadron, but 8 or 9 years seems excessive. Congrats to the two guys who got their F-35 and I would have given my first born to fly a jet like the Typhoon, so Danners should feel quite lucky.

[Timelord]

Hello Chieftp. Have a look at the thread “UK MFTS on or off the rails”. Basically, all has not been well with the UK flying training system resulting in some outrageous delays between courses.

[tucumseh]

I always thought it strange that the Canadians chose the name Cormorant for the helicopter we call the Merlin. A bird which seems to spend as much time below the surface of the water as flying above it seemed pretty inapt.


I seem to remember 'Cormorant' was the name given to their new expanding array dipping sonar for the aircraft. RN trialled it in early 80s in Sea King, intending it for Merlin. Might explain the underwater bit!

Which is nowt compared to the annual bunfight between MoD(PE)'s Air System and Sea Systems. The former managed the sonar winch; the latter the winch cable, as it got wet. Until the fraud case and triple billing......

[Typhoondriver]

I remember being in a debrief at a CQWI when a certain Sqn commander announced that as a result of his teams’ efforts that very day...some of which had been CQWI related, that the Typhoon would henceforth be the FGR4...the news was delivered very much in the way one might announce the end to world hunger. I think everyone in the hangar thought something along the lines of: ‘Oh’ or possibly ‘Does anyone have the ‘Irrelevant Button’ to hand?’

That was right up there with the time when a VSO stood in front of the entire assembled CQWI Mass Debrief, and proceeded to go bat **** crazy on the Harrier Force. He seemed a little miffed that the Harrier mates weren't 'conceptually' prepared to crash their jets into 'technicals' containing High Value Individuals in Afghan. IIRC, the words were something along the lines 'The F3 mates are prepared to crash their jets into an Airliner on QRA, so why do the Harrier mates think they are any better?'.

I do seem to recall the F3 mates looking furtively at each other, obviously thinking 'WTF did we sign up to that........?'

[Training Risky]

Consistency seems to have gone out of the window recently. Hercules, Phantom, Sentry and Poseidon get British military designations, but not Globemaster or Lightning. Not sure about Rivet Joint or Reaper!

Agree about the lack of consistency. The RC-135W RIVET JOINT (US desig) seems to be called AIRSEEKER (UK project definition) on the RAF website. Not sure what the crews call it...

General Atomics call the Predator B the MQ-9 REAPER, whch is both the US and UK desig.

[Davef68]

lb, 3 were tested at B-D and rejected,returned to USA...no turbochargers fitted....

Evaluated, ordered, then cancelled. A couple were delivered to the UK, but were ultimately transferred to the USAAF.

Slight diversion into history! The original Lightning I was rejected at least a year before any of them reached the UK, by an un-named RAF pilot in the US. The reasons are murky, it's given as 'not up to performance' but the suspicion at Lokheed was that (a) the UK didn't need it post BoB and (b) we had run out of money and couldn't afford to pay for them.We knew the supercharger- equipped mk II was coming soon, so the performance thing does sound like a red herring. Potential legal action was stopped when the USAAF took over the contract.

However the P-38 did see active service with the RAF - a P-38J was loaned from the USAAF and used in the master bomber role, later being updated to 'Droop Snoot' two seat configuration.

[Asturias56]

Most early US fighters lacked things such as self-sealing tanks, cockpit armour etc etc plus they were very MG oriented just as the RAF were looking at cannons IIRC

[Wrathmonk]

... a VSO stood in front of the entire assembled CQWI Mass Debrief ..... a little miffed that the Harrier mates weren't 'conceptually' prepared to crash their jets into 'technicals' containing High Value Individuals in Afghan.

Wouldn't be an ex-Tornado sqn cdr and then Marham stn cdr per chance?

[orca]

No, that masterpiece was delivered by a Harrier man through and through - Sqn and Station CO.

[orca]

Although it was the person you describe who led the witch hunt at High Wycombe when the news first appeared on Pprune!!

[Burnswannabe]

Agree about the lack of consistency. The RC-135W RIVET JOINT (US desig) seems to be called AIRSEEKER (UK project definition) on the RAF website. Not sure what the crews call it...

General Atomics call the Predator B the MQ-9 REAPER, whch is both the US and UK desig.

The crews call it Rivet Joint. DE&S, the Senior leadership and some of the intelligence community call it AIRSEEKER.

[langleybaston]

Thanks to all those who cleared up the "Lightning One" query for me.
I am enLIGHTENED"

[Herod]

Maybe it was my old eyes, or my fading memory, but did no-one else notice the 617 Stirlings, of "Dambusters" fame? See my post # 313

[Sandy Parts]

I understand that RJ is the air platform, AIRSEEKER is the whole package including the essential ground stations (well, it was a few years back, lounging by to be corrected a la Rees-Mogg)..

[Bing]

IIRC it was some time after the Typhoon entered service that it received its FGR4 designation

Presumably because they had to get through the T1, F2, and T3 variants before they got to FGR4.

[just another jocky]

Maybe it was my old eyes, or my fading memory, but did no-one else notice the 617 Stirlings, of "Dambusters" fame? See my post # 313

Indeed.

Much like the rest of the programme, the audio, sub-titles and video were often unrelated and certainly not concurrent. Very poor editing but then I doubt anyone other than a pilot would spot it.

[sycamore]

H, thought it may have referred to GG,but he never operated Stirlings...thought they might have brought the Lancaster,or maybe the bricks from the dam, or the Tirpitz tin....

[weemonkey]

Most early US fighters lacked things such as self-sealing tanks, cockpit armour etc etc plus they were very MG oriented just as the RAF were looking at cannons IIRC
I seem to remember the satisfaction of US saber pilots concerning the way .50 shredded migs in Korea from a number of documentaries ...

still the real german aces did ok with what they had in their 109s...15, 20 then 30mm hub cannon then twin15mm "cannon" over engine replacing 7.9mgs..

[air pig]

its about exposure... I’m guessing that she would have been perfectly happy not being centre of attention but it is in the best interest RAF if she can inspire some young ladies who otherwise may not have considered the forces.

And the RN.

[FODPlod]

My my, lots of 'White Knights' on here! Dry your eyes ladies. I have worked with lots of women while I was in, some good, some bad, but not one of them ever needed to be the centre of attention for a TV programme or be filmed talking to kids and getting special attention for their gender. That bit was cringeworthy...

How dare she! It’s not as though women are under-represented among service pilots and need any specific encouragement. In 2014, there were 80 or so out of about 2,360 so they must have constituted what, at least 3%? Quite a high proportion given the number of outdated, misogynic attitudes like yours they must have had to overcome along the way.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/248629/response/624464/attach/html/3/FOI%202015%2001358.pdf.html

Using information from the Joint Personnel Administration system, Defence Statistics can identify that as at 1 December 2014 there were 60 female pilots in the RAF and as at 1 December 2013 there were 50 female pilots in the RAF.

Using information supplied by the Army Air Corps, there were 20 female pilots in the Army as at 1 February 2015 and 20 female pilots as at the 1 May 2014.

Using information from the Joint Personnel Administration system, Defence Statistics can identify that as at 1 December 2014 there were 10 female pilots in the Royal Navy / Royal Marines and as at 1 December 2013 there were 10 female pilots in the Royal Navy / Royal Marines.

Please note that figures have been rounded to the nearest 10, numbers ending in “5” have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/420879/PUBLIC_1427452359.pdf

Using information from the Joint Personnel Administration system, Defence Statistics can identify that as at 1 December 2014 there were 1,790 trained regular pilots in the RAF and as at 1 December 2013 there were 1,830 pilots in the RAF.

Using information supplied by the Army Air Corps, there was estimated to be approximately 540 trained pilots on strength in the Army at September 2014, and 550 trained pilots on strength in the Army at February 2015.

Using information from the Joint Personnel Administration system, Defence Statistics can identify that as at 1 December 2014 there were 530 pilots in the Royal Navy / Royal Marines and as at 1 December 2013 there were 550 pilots in the Royal Navy / Royal Marines.

Please note that figures have been rounded to the nearest 10, numbers ending in "5" have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias.

[Asturias56]

"How dare she! It’s not as though women are under-represented among service pilots. In 2014, there were 80 or so out of about 2,360 so they must have constituted what, at least 3%? "

A hit - a palpable hit!!!!! :ok: :ok: :ok:

[charliegolf]

Purely out of interest, are there any flying gigs* where the lady pilots have not yet arrived?

CG

* eg, if there are lady Typhoon pilots, are there lady Typhoon instructors? Similarly, any ladies at the 'Real Top Gun School'?

[Davef68]

Purely out of interest, are there any flying gigs* where the lady pilots have not yet arrived?

CG

* eg, if there are lady Typhoon pilots, are there lady Typhoon instructors? Similarly, any ladies at the 'Real Top Gun School'?

I'm sure Kirsty Stewart was a Hawk QFI creamie

[Bob Viking]

Yes she was. Until about 2004. There was another female creamie there at the same time.

There hasn’t been a female QFI on the Hawk T2 yet.

I will let a Typhoon guy tell you about their fleet.

BV

PS. Why are we letting a debate about gender hijack a thread such as this anyway? None of the girls I have met in this job so far have asked for or received any special treatment. None of them actively seek the limelight either. They just want to get on with their jobs. I bet they cringe every time they read things like this.

[Davef68]

PS. Why are we letting a debate about gender hijack a thread such as this anyway? None of the girls I have met in this job so far have asked for or received any special treatment. None of them actively seek the limelight either. They just want to get on with their jobs. I bet they cringe every time they read things like this.

The times you wish PPRUNE had a 'Like' button. I thought we'd done this debate 20 years ago

[Asturias56]

Not in the backwoods I'm afraid.....................

[Tankertrashnav]

Bob Viking - I entirely agree that this attention is not sought by the women themselves, but there is no doubt that journalists and the like will always seek to feature women in what might be considered to be a male dominated environment. I recently watched a very interesting programme about railways in Scotland, and a visitor from Mars would have drawn the conclusion that all trains were driven by women, such was the emphasis given to them by the programme makers. A while ago I also pointed out that although less than 20% of Air Transport Auxiliary pilots in WW2 were women, you never heard anything about the 80% who were men. Indeed one of our number on here (I forget who) posted that until I pointed this out he had been under the impression that the ATA had been an all female organisation. I repeat, I don't blame the women themselves for this, but the programme makers, who don't seem to be able to get over the fact that women can fly aircraft, drive trains or indeed do anything except have babies and bake cakes.

[Blackfriar]

Certainly down there somewhere -Zimbabwe maybe? I thought the same, very slight accent though.

TN.

I thought I caught a hint of Norn Iron RP - that strangled Northern Irish accent that comes from living with the English and having to slow down to be understood. :))