Douglas Bader

[ex-fast-jets]

I stumbled across this last night on YouTube.................

"This Is Your Life - Douglas Bader" - first aired, I believe, in Mar 82.

I had not seen it before - if you haven't, you might enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/4408_DJOu3I

[chevvron]

That was shortly after he was involved in an 'infringement' occurence after departing Redhill in GAPUB which, as he was a CAA board member at the time, we were told 'forget it, it never happened' after both Farnborough and Gatwick had filled in the necessary forms.

[Treble one]

An all star cast
Sir Denis Crowley-Milling
Sir Harry Broadhurst
Dame Vera Lynn
Hugh Dundass
Johnny Johnson
Adolf Galland
Al Deere
Bob Stanford-Tuck

[NutLoose]

Not a nice chap

[pr00ne]

Not at all.

[Wensleydale]

Not a nice chap

He went to the same school as Guy Gibson: another with the same character, although another old boy was Adrian Warburton who was the complete opposite. Warburton was idolised by his groundcrew but not that popular with the aircrew on his sqn on Malta because he took all the plumb jobs himself.

[treadigraph]

he took all the plumb jobs himself

He fixed the sanitation? ;)

[ivor toolbox]

Not a nice chap

Agreed. Had the misfortune to meet him one September @ 1980. Got detailed to meet a visiting civvy aeroplane, (bats and chocks)... grumpy passenger got out "Airman... don't you know who I am?" "No, sir, should I?" "I am Group Cap SIR Douglas Bader..." at which point I was saved by the staish turning up.

Ttfn

[weemonkey]

Agreed. Had the misfortune to meet him one September @ 1980. Got detailed to meet a visiting civvy aeroplane, (bats and chocks)... grumpy passenger got out "Airman... don't you know who I am?" "No, sir, should I?" "I am Group Cap SIR Douglas Bader..." at which point I was saved by the staish turning up.

Ttfn

Yes but did you get his sig on the paddle??

[ShyTorque]

He went to the same school as Guy Gibson: another with the same character, although another old boy was Adrian Warburton who was the complete opposite. Warburton was idolised by his groundcrew but not that popular with the aircrew on his sqn on Malta because he took all the plumb jobs himself.

Perhaps he was trying to become a better "lead"-er.

[60024]

I met him at the Battle of Britain Museum on his 70th birthday. I was subsequently sent a signed copy of his biography inscribed with best wishes for my flying training. Still got the book, though I have never read that copy.

[Chugalug2]

So, if the Luftwaffe didn't shoot him down...

[BEagle]

meleagertoo, you might care to read this thread: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/102783-bader-s-batman-has-died.html .

[air pig]

How pathetic, how utterly, childishly pathetic the know-better revisionist big-head moral 'look-at-me" high-grounders exercising their keyboard 'rights' to rubbish a real national hero because he doesn't fit into their sanitised, nasty, vindictive, superior, 100% hindsight politically corrupt (correct?) system of self-righteous bigotry.

Ask yourselves, maggots, if you'd had the priviledgnlet alone the ability (God help the rest of us) to serve your country as well as he did if the burden had fallen on your craven, sloping, morally superior shoulders? And if you had so distinguished yourselves whether it would be appropriate for any johnny-come-lately to demean your achievements 70 years later becaue they thought your views out of fashion?

Disgraceful, shamefully spiteful holier-than-thou little minds.

Your comments Sir, are crass in the extreme and I suggest that you gve your head a good wobble.

There were far better commanders within the RAF during WW2, than Bader. People such as Johnson, Cheshre and Conningham, whilst tough demanding commanders did not have the arrogance that Bader displayed. Other pilots such as Shannon, McCarthy and the incomperable Micky Martin (later as CinC RAF Germany) where as good as him if not better.. Bader was the author of his own misfortune by disobeying flying orders when he crashed his aircraft. He was indeed fortunate to be allowed back ontoflying duties at the start of WW2 and that was nluy by the fortunate chance that AVM Hallahan was the president fo the medical board.

[mopardave]

How pathetic, how utterly, childishly pathetic the know-better revisionist big-head moral 'look-at-me" high-grounders exercising their keyboard 'rights' to rubbish a real national hero because he doesn't fit into their sanitised, nasty, vindictive, superior, 100% hindsight politically corrupt (correct?) system of self-righteous bigotry.

Ask yourselves, maggots, if you'd had the priviledgnlet alone the ability (God help the rest of us) to serve your country as well as he did if the burden had fallen on your craven, sloping, morally superior shoulders? And if you had so distinguished yourselves whether it would be appropriate for any johnny-come-lately to demean your achievements 70 years later becaue they thought your views out of fashion?

Disgraceful, shamefully spiteful holier-than-thou little minds.

A bit strong bruv…..I don't think anyone is denigrating his ability as an inspirational leader.

[Chugalug2]

meleagertoo. Oh, and this too perhaps?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjPjoCl5fvjAhUjVBUIHZ_CAH4QFjALegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressreader.com%2Fuk%2Fdaily-express%2F20060825%2F281994667965778&usg=AOvVaw3Mf2G6HeVJ4b8lrjZukIMX

[langleybaston]

I claim the thin distinction of having briefed Bader on the weather [Gatwick 1961] and Mickey Martin, who was Staish at Nicosia c. 1963.
And, name dropping, Sir Alan Campbell, and Sir John -[Everest] Hunt.

Bader was perfectly civil to a very nervous and wet behind the ears junior forecaster. Martin was a sweety, very well liked.

Just a thought. Leaders in war do not have to be nice, they have to be winners. The history books are full of winning sh1ts. Better than nice losers.

[meleagertoo]

meleagertoo, you might care to read this thread: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/102783-bader-s-batman-has-died.html .


It can have no relevance to his status as a national inspiration and hero, wartime and after.

[BEagle]

It was perhaps only his sheer bloody-minded determination to overcome adversity which saw him through. Certainly an inspiration to many at a time when the nation needed it. Lesser men would probably never had survived.

Anyone can have their moments of grumpiness and I don't doubt that Sir DB didn't suffer fools gladly. But that This is your Life programme certainly puts things into perspective.

He flew G-APUB at White Waltham and I was there as a UAS APO one day when he was seen driving his car right through the Chipmunk line. One of our Fg Off QFIs exclaimed "Who the ***k is that!", before ringing the security guard to have the car stopped at the gate whilst he made his way over to tell him off. But when he got there, Bader was politeness itself and apologised unreservedly "Awfully sorry, old boy - bit of a balls up on my behalf. Won't do it again!" All the QFI could do was to mumble "Thank you, Sir" and throw up a salute.

[mopardave]

It can have no relevance to his status as a national inspiration and hero, wartime and after.

No, but I bet his "lacky" would take a different view.

[SASless]

Some folks. you can love...some you can hate....some you can love to hate!

What matters is if they produce the results demanded....how they do so not so much.

He led from the Cockpit....and took the fight to the enemy!

Great Men are not known for being meek, mild, and afraid of their shadow.

[NutLoose]

Meleagertoo, as I started it off,, my apologies if I burst your bubble, I was actually being rather kind in my description, but I stand by it. Just because someone has done " great" things in the War does not necessarily mean that the person behind the " legend" comes over with equal measure, and in Baders case he was far from it.


Incidentally it is widely believed that the loss of his legs aided him in his ability to withstand the onset of G over other men, rather like wearing a G suit, as without legs blood couldn't pool in his lower limbs causing him to black out.

[JustinHeywood]

Are we not allowed to make negative comments about a national hero?
Surely a man can be brave and skilled, and still be an ass?

[Reader not a writer]

No one is perfect.
He was a hero in times of great despair and was an inpsiration to many. After the war he did great work for the disabled and raised lots of money for the cause..
Greatest respect for a true hero
RNAW

[tartare]

Ah well - guess that's the thing about getting older.
I've reached the point where no matter what someone's `achieved' if they're a c*ck, I'm just not interested anymore.
Guess that makes me a mediocre snowflake - or - ahem - a maggot?
For example, a certain retired USAF Brigadier General - complete arse of a man by all accounts.
I'd forgotten about the Bader stories, but reading about the way he treated that Batman...
I prefer my heroes quiet and competent.
No noise - just do the ******* job so brilliantly that you're beyond question.
Kinda like the bloke who piloted the LEM...?

[radar101]

What has not been mentioned is the fact that he was used as a tool (because of his celebrity and his high level contacts) by those trying to oust the Battle of Britain leaders Hugh Dowding and Keith Park. They succeeded!!

[Wingless Walrus]

Bader is a prominent historical figure who became a legend. Perhaps the only pilot who almost everyone in Britain knew his name. While almost everyone knew his name, almost no one really knew more than he was a WWII fighter pilot with no legs.

Like most people I initially thought the film 'Reach for the Sky' was a documentary. I got my first inkling of the broader reality when as a kid I bought my first biography of a WWII pilot: 'Fly for Your Life' tells the story of Bob Stanford Tuck.
Tuck along with Salor Malan and Bader were invited to give opinion on whether fighters should be armed with cannon.
Tuck and Malan wanted cannon, Bader did not and made no bones about the fact that anyone wanting cannon was an idiot. It was clear that Bader did not like people disagreeing with him.

Reading more and more over the years I learned more about Bader the person rather than Bader the legend. A book about the disgraceful ambushing of Dowding and Park immediately after they had won the Battle of Britain, by two ambitious men wanting their jobs and who used a certain (unwitting?) forceful 12 Group advocate of the 'big wing' theory to drive home their dagger in a senior meeting, was interesting reading.

One interesting book to read is 'Baders Last Fight', a detailed analysis of Baders last mission and how Bader was actually brought down over France. It also sheds more light on Bader the person rather than the legend.

It is often the way with legends that most people don't get to know more about them than what it was that made them legendary. A USAF pilot who achieved legend status in the public eye from his war exploits, had some questionable views about combat and not always the nicest of nature. They are often not easy to find but knowing these things is of interest from a historical perspective of understanding who prominent figures in war really were and the full impact they had.

Bader is prominent figure of WWII history. It is normal to want to know exactly who such prominent people really were, not to denigrate them but to get history right and in full context.

Bader went to war with no legs, shot down about 20 aircraft and no matter what else history may reveal about him nothing will ever take that away from him. But there is a lot more to almost any person than their legend.

[stevef]

The late Colin Hodgkinson was also a double-amputee WW2 pilot. Like Bader he spent some time as a PoW but was released as apparently being 'of no further use to his country' and eventually returned to operational flying! He didn't catch the public eye for some reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Hodgkinson_(RAF_officer)
He was also a 'guest' on This is Your Life in 1957. His autobiography is a very good read.

[chevvron]

He flew G-APUB at White Waltham and I was there as a UAS APO one day when he was seen driving his car right through the Chipmunk line. One of our Fg Off QFIs exclaimed "Who the ***k is that!", before ringing the security guard to have the car stopped at the gate whilst he made his way over to tell him off. But when he got there, Bader was politeness itself and apologised unreservedly "Awfully sorry, old boy - bit of a balls up on my behalf. Won't do it again!" All the QFI could do was to mumble "Thank you, Sir" and throw up a salute.
In the infringement I mentioned earlier, his attitude was similar.
After departure from Redhill, he flew south west and just flew around west of Gatwick still inside the Gatwick Control Zone for a while causing them to stop all departures before clearing controlled airspace to the west.
Later, after doing a beat up at Blackbushe without calling on the RTF, he called Farnborough and when informed he had caused departures at Gatwick to be stopped, he replied 'ha ha oh have I really'.
We made sure the RTF tape for that day was impounded but as I said, next day we received a message via Gatwick to 'forget it, it never happened'.
The guy at Gatwick sounded p1ssed off too.

[olster]

It would appear to be fashionable to denigrate national icons because they did not conform to 2019 standards of behaviour which are increasingly resembling ludicrous levels of pcness. Douglas Bader was an extraordinary man who flew combat against one of the nastiest nationalist regimes in history. He went into battle with or without legs and demonstrated incredible levels of courage. The anecdotal fact that sometimes he wasn’t terribly nice or that he once infringed Gatwick’s airspace is of no interest whatsoever. I think that we can let off the man who flew against hordes of enemy aircraft and were indeed infringing our airspace with the intent of killing as many of our relatives and friends as possible. Time for a bit of perspective.

[sharpend]

What ever you think of Bader, like Churchill, he inspired the general public. In WW2 we needed people like them. yes, I'm sure he could be arrogant and abrasive, but he tied up the Germans in captivity. There were better fighter pilots and probably better leaders. One also should remember that he lost his legs showing off and disobeying rules. But he inspired many.

[jindabyne]

I take it that many of you don't live in glass houses.

[SASless]

A famous American who was killed in an airplane crash with Wiley Post......Will Rogers....one said "We cannot all be Heroes as someone has to sit on the curb (kerb) and applaud as they walk by.".

Seems to me some folks are forgetting their place in life.

[ATSA1]

There was a Documentary on CH4 a few years back called "The real Douglas Bader", and nearly everyone called him a bastard!
He certainly didnt endear himself to many people on a social level, but if it wasnt for his sheer tenacity and bloody mindedness, he would never have made it out of hospital in Reading in 1931, when he was expected to die, or walked again without ever using a stick, or even less, climbed back into any aircraft, let alone a Spitfire or Hurricane, and served his country very well as a ruthless fighter pilot! That is what he was paid to do in 1939-41, not be a "nice old gent" who crashed a Bulldog at Woodley in 1931!

but then, if he hadnt been such an exponent of self belief, he wouldn't have tried to do a slow roll at low level in the first place....

Aeroplanes bite fools, even if your name is Douglas Bader!

[racedo]

Just a thought. Leaders in war do not have to be nice, they have to be winners.

They have to survive so they can write their version of history

Lets face it that if you really dug into RAF crews who fought in B of B you would find drunks, cheats, rapists, thieves etc etc. But 1.) why would you want to 2.) what would be its purpose.

I did see that programme with Kenneth More making a guest appearance when it was first shown.

It is nice to know he was not a nice man, affects not my opinion one jot. It leaves me thinking, TF he wasn't a nice man as given he had to go out and kill people would I want a really nice man to do it or a complete barsteward. I prefer the latter but accept post conflict he would need to be pensioned off and kept out of operational command, aside from using his experience to teach for the future.

[Union Jack]

I claim the thin distinction of having briefed Bader on the weather [Gatwick 1961] and Mickey Martin, who was Staish at Nicosia c. 1963.
And, name dropping, Sir Alan Campbell, and Sir John -[Everest] Hunt.

Bader was perfectly civil to a very nervous and wet behind the ears junior forecaster. Martin was a sweety, very well liked.

Just a thought. Leaders in war do not have to be nice, they have to be winners. The history books are full of winning sh1ts. Better than nice losers.

Just another thought - Sounds rather like a very recent leadership election, and possibly even a glimpse of the country's future......

Jack

[Blossy]

It seems to be difficult finding a hero who DIDN'T have feet of clay these days. One such was possibly General Slim of the 14th Army in Burma.

[Tankertrashnav]

Slim has been subject to a lot of child abuse rumours about his time as Governor General of Australia in the 50s. These of course could be on a par with the recent false allegations about Field Marshal Bramall - I only mention them as just about everybody at the top will attract criticism of their personal behaviour, whether justified or not.

On a lighter note, Kenneth More came to Marham in 1971 and was given a chance to look over one of our Victors. Upon meeting him, one of our chaps remarked "Glad to see your legs are better". Fortunately the actor laughed, even though I suspect he had heard that many times before.

[tartare]

I don't buy the argument that you have to be an @rsehole to be an effective killer and warrior.
That's naively simplistic.
Quite possible to treat your fellows with respect (different to being nice) yet have no compunction about shooting an enemy in the face.
The idea that you simply have to be a pr!ck to lead from the front, to face danger and win is exactly what's causing so many problems in the world right now.
It's called the big man theory of leadership - if it looks and sounds like an alpha male, then it must be an effective leader.
A former mentor and ex-fast jet pilot put it quite wisely in my view.
If you want people to run at a machine gun, you have to seduce them to do so.

[India Four Two]

Blossy,

Unfortunately, even Uncle Bill had accusations made against him when he was Governor General of Australia.

However, he was a remarkable general. My Dad was in the XIVth Army and wouldn’t hear a bad word said about him.

A favourite anecdote from Slim’s biography, paraphrased from memory, is that after he had given a rousing informal chat to a group of troops in the jungle, one of them shouted:

”We’re right behind you, Sir!”

Slim responded: “ No, actually I’ll be behind you!”

As far as Dogsbody is concerned, after having read of his treatment of his Batman, while a POW and his subsequent behaviour, including his rudeness to female staff at WLAC, I’m firmly in the camp that his behaviour was unacceptable. His achievements as a fighter pilot are immaterial.

[Finningley Boy]

I've mentioned on another thread the German Ground Attack Pilot, Hans Ulrich Rudel, who had 519 Tanks destroyed to his name. He was shot down over Soviet Territory and against all odds made his way in Winter, bare foot, back to German lines. He lost his right foot in the process yet insisted on getting back into the cockpit at the earliest convenience. Justifiably recognised for his valour by his own side, he had been awarded every possible Gallantry decoration including Knights Cross with Swords, Oak Leaves and Diamonds, I believe they introduced Golden Oak Leaves just for him. It has been said that had he been British or American his exploits would have rivalled Bader and the like in the public domain. However, he was an unrepentant Nazi, not even one of the good ones!

FB

[SASless]

If you want people to run at a machine gun, you have to seduce them to do so.

The USMC might suggest there is another method that works as well.....called Iron Hard Discipline mixed with Esprit de Corps.

[tartare]

The USMC might suggest there is another method that works as well.....called Iron Hard Discipline mixed with Esprit de Corps.

True.
And what could be more seductive than that uniform, the medals, the Mameluke sword and the hundreds of years of history.
Especially the esprit de corps - the brotherhood of your fellow Marine.

[orca]

Yet in Eugene Sledge’s book he describes ‘Ack Ack’ Haldane as ‘the most loved’ leader and it sounds like his blend of humility and humanity made him someone his boys would follow anywhere.

[ivor toolbox]

Yes but did you get his sig on the paddle??

No.. was part way through getting a bollocking from said grumpy passenger for not wearing a hat (on an active flight line) when staish pitched up.

Ttfn

[DODGYOLDFART]

I never met DB but he seems to have had a very mixed reception on here. However one guy of that era I did meet and admire is AVM Johnny Johnson, I am afraid I cannot think of a bad word to say against him!

[SASless]

Some seduction....I believe you have the "Story of O" confused with Boot Camp at Parris Island somehow.

[longer ron]

I never met DB but he seems to have had a very mixed reception on here. However one guy of that era I did meet and admire is AVM Johnny Johnson, I am afraid I cannot think of a bad word to say against him!

I am sorry to say that JJ was fairly universally disliked as well - perhaps especially post war.

[Icare9]

Getting back to Bader and WW2, after the BoB had been "won" there was a need to take the fight to the enemy, and a Big Wing was a better format that small sections of fighters that could be set upon by a mass of locally based German fighters.
However, it was NOT a sound philosophy for the Battle of Britain,as time taken to get the Big Wing assembled would have given German bombers free range over the South East up to London, and allowed the Germans to also mass their formations of fighters, who at that time had more effective armament (cannon) and better tactics (finger four).
His aversion to cannon was also a handicap, as a few cannon shells will inflict more damage than a short burst of .303's....

You only have to look at how many RAF bombers were unable to fend off night fighters with .303 compared to 0.5 in guns, or how ineffective .303 ammo was against the tin V1's....

Dowding got it right for the BoB defence, but at great personal cost and sadness in husbanding his precious resources (pilots), and a new offensive attitude was required for post BoB operations.

But I wasn't there and whilst I have admiration for Bader and his achievements, he did have feet of clay in his attitude post War, that wasn't necessary and demeaned his wartime activities.
You might equally argue in similar fashion about Churchill!

[Treble one]

Yet in Eugene Sledge’s book he describes ‘Ack Ack’ Haldane as ‘the most loved’ leader and it sounds like his blend of humility and humanity made him someone his boys would follow anywhere.

I agree-look at Dick Winters in Easy Company/506th PIR. If you saw the series 'Band of Brothers' its clear that his men idolised him.

I know a chap who worked with Bader at Shell and he hasn't got anything particularly nice to say about him.

I agree however, that his courage and fortitude in extremely difficult circumstances is worthy of great admiration.

[megan]

His aversion to cannon was also a handicapThe introduction of the cannon during the BoB had dismal results, usually failing after getting off one or two rounds, that may have been the reason for his opinion at the time. Cannon armed squadrons asked for, and received, their .303 aircraft back. It took sometime to get the technical issues sorted, by which time DB was residing in Germany.

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/stories-of-the-battle-of-britain-cannon-spitfire.html

[rattman]

I agree-look at Dick Winters in Easy Company/506th PIR. If you saw the series 'Band of Brothers' its clear that his men idolised him.
I know a chap who worked with Bader at Shell and he hasn't got anything particularly nice to say about him.


A good friends, Grandfather flew with bader in WW2, the thing that sticks in his mind whenever someone asked him about what bader was like, he pulls out the comment " You dont have to like someone to respect them"

[SASless]

The Compromise would have been .50 Caliber MG's.....as American Fighters carried....six to eight worked a treat!

[The B Word]

https://youtu.be/z31RgLde_Dw

[Kemble Pitts]

Never met Bader but, probably like most young lads who read Reach for the Sky, he was hero figure to me. Then I heard much about his appalling character and the hero in him rather faded.

Some have said that his attitudes were from another time: I don't buy that. Common decency to your fellows, of whatever rank, is timeless. You don't have to be all 'matey' with everrybody if your 'class perceptions' don't allow, but decency should be a given, in any age. I worked for a short while with Neville Duke for example, a war hero and an absolute gentleman. Maybe he is amongst the exceptions.

I suppose what Bader tells us is that 'war hero' and 'cnut' are not mutually exclusive, perhaps even linked in some manner.

[chevvron]

A good friends, Grandfather flew with bader in WW2, the thing that sticks in his mind whenever someone asked him about what bader was like, he pulls out the comment " You dont have to like someone to respect them"
I respect what he achieved, but that doesn't excuse him treating his blocking of Gatwick departures for over 10 minutes as a big joke.(#29)
On another thread, it's reported that recently a pilot was fined over £3K for just infringing an ATZ.

[SASless]

My old Daddy taught me that when I took the measure of a Man....I should take a full measure, the Good and the Not So Good, and not just the parts I liked....or disliked...then make my decision.

Douglas Bader was a Great Man.

He had his rough side for sure but he also showed indomitable spirit and courage.

Even Alan Bristow chunked Bader into a swimming pool and declared him a "Tin Legged Git" at one time.

Bristol had his own rough side too but those who knew him still thought him a Great Man.

As the video posted by "The B Word" clearly shows....Bader had a softer side than some here are willing to see.

I encourage those folks to get back to their place on the Kerb and put their hands together....and repeat.

[pr00ne]

Kemble Pitts,

Your mentioning of Reach for the Sky is apposite here. I think Paul Brickhill, and the films made from his books, has a lot to answer for here. I read both 'Reach for the sky' and 'The Dambusters' avidly when young, and it was that image of a pleasant, friendly, cheerful good natured, popular guy that he painted of both Bader and Gibson that has become the problem. The rude awakening that I had on the two occasions that I met Bader were a shock, though by then I had heard rumours, but still I retained the impression gained from the book, and subsequent film. The reality was a harsh shock. And not just for the way he treated me, but how I saw him treat others around him, especially females and the lowly in rank and status. I heard similar tales of Gibson from a family relative who met him at Woodhall Spa and Coningsby in 1944.
Then we have the problem that the myth created by both book and film are built on by propaganda, and when you try to present reality and truth, you are met by cries of revisionist!

[pr00ne]

SASless,

What on earth is a "Great Man" for goodness sake?

He was dealt a cruel blow in the loss of his legs, though entirely self inflicted. He overcame that set back with tremendous success, and resilience, though if there had been no war in 1939 he would have never flown a military aircraft again. He had a short controversial war and was then shot down and became a POW for the duration. Millions of others did what he did. Was he a great leader? From what I have heard no, he was an arrogant bully and a thoroughly unpleasant character, who had rank, rank which he used over people in a most unpleasant manner. He became famous for being a legless pilot. He was not unique.

[Planet Basher]

The concept of the right man in the right place at the right time should be a balanced opinion.

[longer ron]

Never met Bader but, probably like most young lads who read Reach for the Sky, he was hero figure to me. Then I heard much about his appalling character and the hero in him rather faded.

Some have said that his attitudes were from another time: I don't buy that. Common decency to your fellows, of whatever rank, is timeless. .

I absolutely agree - I met quite a few decorated WW2 RAF Pilots - some were still serving (some achieving high rank) and the vast majority of them were thoroughly likeable genuine guys and or gentlemen.

[longer ron]

SASless,

He had a short controversial war and was then shot down (by 'friendly fire :) ) and became a POW for the duration. Millions of others did what he did. Was he a great leader? From what I have heard no, he was an arrogant bully and a thoroughly unpleasant character, who had rank, rank which he used over people in a most unpleasant manner. He became famous for being a legless pilot. He was not unique.

My Bold 'friendly fire' addition above :)

I agree with the comment about was he a great leader - except perhaps that he was the right person at the right time to take over 242 sqn - maybe that was before he got tied up in command 'politics'.

[stevef]

Brian Lane was a commendable leader by all accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Lane_(RAF_officer)

His autobiography is well-worth a read and serving member's opinions - including ground crew - endorse his popularity. Apparently Leonard Cheshire was equally well-respected.
Maybe upbringing and circumstances colour one's future but obviously those times aren't in line with ours, 70 years later. Another time, another place...

[Wingless Walrus]

The introduction of the cannon during the BoB had dismal results, usually failing after getting off one or two rounds, that may have been the reason for his opinion at the time. Cannon armed squadrons asked for, and received, their .303 aircraft back. It took sometime to get the technical issues sorted, by which time DB was residing in Germany.

Cannon was trialled on a very few select aircraft in the BoB, as it was still not fully developed.

The meeting with Tuck, Malan, Bader and others took place after the BoB, around December 1940.

By the time of the meeting, Tuck had met with one of the pilots involved in cannon trials, so Tuck had a good understanding of its current stage of development.

Bader was shot down on 9th August 1941, on a mission involving five RAF fighter wings containing several squadrons of Spitfire VB, armed with cannon. This included 616 squadron, who Bader flew with. IIRC, the only Spitfire V that didn’t have cannon was that flown by Bader, who flew an earlier version, the Spitfire VA.

[Archimedes]

The thing about the cannon story which has always puzzled me is that the Air Staff had - contrary to many accounts - decided on the 20mm cannon as the weapon they wanted prior to the Battle of Britain; as WW observes, the problem was that the weapons weren't ready for incorporation on the production line, and those which were used in the Battle of Britain were, to some extent, operational trials aircraft. Lessons learned from the experience, the weapons were installed the right way up on the Spitfire IIb and the teardrop fairing on the wing above and below the mechanism was accepted as a necessary consequence (which didn't wreck the Spitfire's performance as some had feared).

Bader was convinced that the cannon's rate of fire was inadequate in fighter versus fighter combat. Tuck (as WW observes) had more information about the efficacy of the weapons and, furthermore, had come to the view from experience that it didn't matter about the rate of fire (Bader's key point) if the rounds hitting the enemy aircraft weren't efficacious enough to do it any serious damage unless you were very lucky. I can't help thinking that Sir Douglas was fighting a rearguard action in a battle he was always going to lose...

[Treble one]

The thing about the cannon story which has always puzzled me is that the Air Staff had - contrary to many accounts - decided on the 20mm cannon as the weapon they wanted prior to the Battle of Britain; as WW observes, the problem was that the weapons weren't ready for incorporation on the production line, and those which were used in the Battle of Britain were, to some extent, operational trials aircraft. Lessons learned from the experience, the weapons were installed the right way up on the Spitfire IIb and the teardrop fairing on the wing above and below the mechanism was accepted as a necessary consequence (which didn't wreck the Spitfire's performance as some had feared).

Bader was convinced that the cannon's rate of fire was inadequate in fighter versus fighter combat. Tuck (as WW observes) had more information about the efficacy of the weapons and, furthermore, had come to the view from experience that it didn't matter about the rate of fire (Bader's key point) if the rounds hitting the enemy aircraft weren't efficacious enough to do it any serious damage unless you were very lucky. I can't help thinking that Sir Douglas was fighting a rearguard action in a battle he was always going to lose...

Just a quick reminder, that for years the RAF had armed their fighters with 4 x .303 machine guns-it was only the work by Sorley and his team that persuaded them, due to the increasing speed of aircraft, and the need to have more firepower to get a higher rate of fire and increase the chance of getting the number of hits needed to bring them down.

I'm assuming that canons were both a step too far (given we'd just introduced 8 x .303) and anyway, as early BoB results showed, were not fit for purpose in 1940 (not belt fed and didn't really fit in a Spitfire wing as designed). 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' by Stephen Bungay discusses some of the development story and issues associated with arming our new monoplane fighters.

[Archimedes]

Just a quick reminder, that for years the RAF had armed their fighters with 4 x .303 machine guns-it was only the work by Sorley and his team that persuaded them, due to the increasing speed of aircraft, and the need to have more firepower to get a higher rate of fire and increase the chance of getting the number of hits needed to bring them down.

I'm assuming that canons were both a step too far (given we'd just introduced 8 x .303) and anyway, as early BoB results showed, were not fit for purpose in 1940 (not belt fed and didn't really fit in a Spitfire wing as designed). 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' by Stephen Bungay discusses some of the development story and issues associated with arming our new monoplane fighters.

Yes - the .303's lack of 'punch' had been demonstrated in trials on a reasonably intact but very much Cat 5'd Blenheim, leading to much furrowing of brows; the Air Staff knew that the .303 wasn't up to the job - or wouldn't be for very long - before the Battle started. GF Wallace covers this in his book on RAF weapons, as does Tony Williams on his website - from memory of his observations, the Air Staff had identified the 20mm round as the best option for dealing with armoured aircraft some time before the war started, and not long after settling for the 8 x .303in fit for the Spit and Hurricane.

(As an aside, Tony Williams makes the point that the M2 Browning was more reliable in terms of stoppage rates even once the HIspano had been sorted out; the US -made Hispanos [digression] were even less reliable)

[Wander00]

Bader was a sqn ldr when shot down, spent the rest of the war in Germany, and was presumably still a sqn ldr when he returned to UK. So how was he a gp capt for the BoB Flypast. How long did he spend as a wg cdr, and what post was he filling as a gp capt?

[Archimedes]

Edit to significantly revise earlier post:

Bader was an Acting Wing Commander when he was shot down, then made a Temporary Wing Commander in the Autumn of 1945. According to his obit in the Times, he was commanding the Central Fighter Establishment at Tangmere from June '45, and was a Group Captain. In January 1946, the Gazette notes his backdated promotion to substantive Wing Commander [from the end of the war]. He is recorded in the Gazette of 6 Aug 1946 as reverting to the retired list as a substantive Wing Commander, retaining the rank of Group Captain - he must, therefore, have been an Acting or Temporary Group Captain for his appointment at CFE and wasn't confirmed in substantive rank, but permitted to retain it.

It is also worth observing that he appears to have remained on the retired list throughout the war, as he references I can read in the Gazette suffix his decorations with (Ret.)

As a throwaway observation, 12 December 1947 he put the following in the Personal column of the Times:


Group Captain Douglas Bader DSO DFC will be broadcasting an appeal on Sunday next, Dec. 14 at 8.25pm for the Disabled Ex Servicemen of both wars now at St David's House, Ealing and the Queen Alexandra Hospital Home, Giffard House, Worthing. Please listen in.

[ex-fast-jets]

I started this thread out of general interest having stumbled across a 1982 "This Is Your Life" Douglas Bader broadcast on YouTube - little realising where the thread would go.

I have found many of the subsequent comments to be educational, and they have opened my mind to aspects about Bader and others of that era of which I was unaware.

Thanks to those who have made this a fascinating thread for me to follow - and, hopefully, others too.

[racedo]

The concept of the right man in the right place at the right time should be a balanced opinion.

Agree

There are some people I would want in a foxhole with me if it ever come to that, but there are others I clearly would not.

Its the old revolutionaries are best retired once revolution is over, it applies exactly the same with war heroes.

[Top West 50]

I came across him in the foyer of Main Building in about 1980. He looked just like Kenneth Moore from behind.

[POBJOY]

Both Kenneth Moore and Richard Todd did more to 'set' their respective characters than the persons themselves, consequently the vast majority of the public consider they were actually like their film counterparts.
Of course wartime reality requires places to be filled by those capable of seeing through difficult and unpleasant tasks, and not winning a popularity contest.
The question should be did Bader 'perform' in his wartime leadership role and the evidence is that he did.
He was certainly wrong about the big wing tactics, and the subsequent losses over France in the 'offensive' mood of LM and co do little to back up the tactics of that period. The vast majority of any wartime operations are not for public consumption, so the powers to be always look for what we would now call 'celebs' to portray a morale boosting screen. A legless fighter leader, and a bomber commander with a huge no of ops: that record stands, and that was their contribution.

[megan]

Thought the audience may be interested in the Spitfire armament story, from "Spitfire - The History", Eric Morgan and Edward Shacklady.
THE SPITFIRE Mk 1B
Fighter equipment of the Royal Air Force and the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain consisted of the Spitfire and Hurricane. and Bfl09 and 110, the former pair with a battery of eight .303 Browning machine guns; the latter with a mixture of machine guns and cannon. The weight of cannon fire was devastating when a direct hit was achieved, and although the Air Ministry was aware that the British fighter armament was effective an improved, and heavier type, was needed for Luftwaffe aircraft were being equipped with heavier armour plate and this nullified, to some extent, the effect of concentrated machine gun strikes. Fighter Command was not at all disappointed with early results during the opening days of the Battle of Britain, and when offered the Hispano 20mm cannon was agreeable only if 60rpg could be guaranteed in drums. A second proposal was for four cannon with 150rpg or 6 X .5in machine guns.

In his original paper on the eight gun fighter Sqdn. Ldr. Sorley had not overlooked the heavier calibre gun for he had written: “The choice lay between the .303 gun, the .5in and a new 20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon, which was of great attraction to the French and other Continental countries. The .5in gun was newly developed and very heavy and was, in fact, a small cannon, and the Hispano was ‘super sensitive' to rigidity of mounting and was difficult to mount in aeroplane wings".

Progress had been made with the wing mounted cannon as can be witnessed by Mitchell's submission of the Supermarine Type 305 (In this submission reference was made to: "If production order for the Type 300 F3 7/34 is forthcoming, one set of wings can be fitted with four cannon guns to speed construction of a prototype to Specification F3 7/35") with four Oerlikon cannon in the wings to Air Ministry Specification F 37/35 in April 1936, full details of which appear in chapter three. Also, Supermarine were always aware of the possibilities of the cannon as can be seen by Beverley Shenstone’s report of the Paris Air Show in November 1936. Among other things he was looking for was examples of cannon armed aircraft. Part of his report relates: “One went to the exhibition hoping to see several types of cannon gun installation. Herein one was very disappointed. Where cannon guns were indicated in French machines they were mock ups, and very rough ones too. The installations were crude in the extreme, and one cannot think that they represented serious proposals. Wing installations seem to have died a natural death and the fuselage installation, either in or below, has taken its place. This change has, of course, been made possible by the use of twin engined machines”.

Previous to Shenstone's Paris trip a Mr. Orleans of Aero Engines Ltd, had visited Supermarine on 30 March to discuss installation problems associated with the Hispano 20mm cannon in the Spitfire, and he produced a drawing (S.K.1218) showing attachments points and other particulars. The gun was entering production in France following trials with it mounted above an aircraft's engine. No wing installation had been attempted. The maximum recoil force was 1100 lbs, and a 60 round cylindrical magazine had been developed and was also available in smaller sizes with fewer rounds. Hispano was of the opinion that a belt feed was not possible. The cannon. mounted on the engine, was held at four points and these positions could, with adjustment, be used for a wing installation. Recoil was absorbed by the front attachment and transmitted to the wing structure via a spring, the stored energy in the spring being expended in an adjacent dash pot.

The complete gun moved through a travel of 20mm when fired with the magazine remaining stationary relative to the structure. It would also function on its side and rate of fire. which could be pre-set. was between 520 and 720 rpm. Mr Orleans left Supermarine with the size o f the wing section under consideration and a request for further information regarding mounting.

Dowding was not impressed with the Hispano cannon for on 25 June 1938 he wrote to Sholto-Douglas at the Air Ministry saying he did not want nine squadrons of Defiants. He then commented: “There has been a lot of talk about the efficiency of the 20mm cannon and I have seen no proof that this gun will give decisive results. We ought to have carried out the most careful experiments to prove its value before we adopt it. lf this was not done I shall wake up in a year’s time and be told I am committed to have 15 squadrons of something with a 20mm cannon; whereas I can tell you now I do not want any and so perhaps save a large sum of money. I also want to be in the picture about the new single seat fighters".

Trials had taken place place at Shoeburyness on, among other obsolete airframes, the F 7/ 30 prototype K2890. Poor results were obtained with cannon shells exploding on contact with the outside skin with little effect to internal structure. Dowding thought that if cannon were to be specified for the Spitfire he would rather have a larger gun with a heavier missile and slower rate of fire, whereby one direct hit would destroy the target. He said: “Therefore, we should make a bold jump and start trials with a 37mm cannon“. But this was contrary to the current thinking of Sorley and Buchanan. who favoured the eight gun fighter.

Following upon the visit to Supermarine by Mr. Orleans, W. M. Hingston. of DTD. arrived at Woolston on 4 August 1938 with details of the Hispano cannon tests. during which it had functioned correctly in (a) an upright position. (b) raked up at 42° from vertical and (c) inverted. lt failed on its side. but as the magazine was unsupported it was thought it would perform correctly with the magazine when supported in the test rig at Boulton and Paul. Tests were also made on the effect of blast on wing leading edges. lt was considered practicable to replace the drum feed by an assisted belt, or hopper. to facilitate housing in the thin wing. but no work had been done on this.

Despite Dowding's objections a letter arrived at Supermarine, addressed to Joseph Smith, on 20 December 1938, and he was instructed to prepare a scheme for a Spitfire to be equipped with one Hispano cannon under each wing. and also to produce drawings and a mock up*. Smith informed the Air Ministry that he was totally opposed to having exposed cannon under the wings and that he could design an installation which would mean fitting them on their sides in the wing with small blisters on the upper and lower wing surfaces. Pierson followed up Smith’s suggestions on 9 January I939 with a plan for four cannon in the wings, and the Air Ministry’s reply on the 24th of the month was that two were sufficient at the moment. Smith and Pierson had obviously resurrected the Type 305 fighter for both had included features of this design.

The fifth production Spitfire Mk I — K9791—was used as the mock-up trials aircraft and despite the need for a belt feed the 60 round drum was specified. This resulted. as forecast by Smith. in a blister above and below the wings to accommodate the magazine. ln order to speed trials and not wait for official approval of the mock up. work had proceeded with the installation of two Hispano cannon in Spitfire L1007. Vickers wrote to the Air Ministry on l9 January requesting delivery of the embodiment loan of guns and ammunition, but not until the end of March were they delivered. Weighing and C.G. determination took place at Eastleigh on I6 June and the aircraft had a tare of 4,589lb, and auw of 5,916.

First trials by Vickers took place the same month against a barrage balloon target and the following month. accompanied by Hurricane L1750 fitted with two cannon mounted under the wings, L1007 arrived at Martlesham Heath for further tests.

The Spitfire went next to AFDU at Northolt for service trials, which revealed that the gun was unreliable at low temperatures and heating would have to be provided. Early in January 1940 the aircraft was transferred to Drem for squadron trials and on the 13th. piloted by P.O. Proudman. it attacked and shot down a Heinkel III at 20.000 feet. Forty one rounds were expended before the guns jammed. L1007 was then transferred to Dishforth on 15 March. where it was found the deflector plates for the ejector chutes were partially to blame for gun stoppages. Squadron Leader J. G. Munro was to design a pair of successful replacements.

Dowding had. by now. accepted the idea of the cannon armed Spitfire and Supermarine was awarded a contract (980385/39) to select and convert 30 Spitfires to take the cannon wing. Lord Beaverbrook. then in complete control of aircraft production. was most impressed by the cannon Spitfire and in his impetuous manner authorised the production of 30 pairs of cannon wings. giving this order the utmost priority. Of the 30 Spitfires ordered 24 had been delivered by 16 August.

The second Spitfire to be converted to cannon armament was P9504. a MkI. and it was ready for squadron use by 4 April 1940. The first cannon Spitfire to reach an RAF squadron was R6261. going to No.19 in June for trials. and it was followed within days by R6770 and 6776. On I July the Air Ministry informed the CO of No.19 Squadron that the squadron was to be completely re-equipped with the cannon Spitfire. but when they were delivered they stayed on for only a few days at any one time. being rapidly returned to No.6 MU at Brize Norton for examination. The new Spitfires were not a great success for combat reports showed clearly the frustration of pilots who. having moved in for a kill. found the guns had jammed solid after a few rounds had been fired. Also. the aeroelasticity of the wing made it twist slightly in tight manoeuvres causing the ammunition drum to come into contact with the skin and jam. It did seem pointless to scramble a number of cannon Spitfires only to have stoppages at the vital moment. Dowding was blunt about the situation for in a letter to the Air Ministry on 15 July he wrote: “Two cannon Spitfire unreliable". The converted Mk ls carried the prefix designation CIG which, presumably, stood for cannon wing.

What was needed was a stop gap, a British compromise, and it appeared in the shape of a mixed armament Spitfire. P9504 was still at Manby with the new cannons installed but, what was fortuitous, it still had four of the original Browning machine gun mountings in the wings. lt was used to test a trial installation of two Hispano cannon and four Browning guns, which proved to be a great success, and within days a second Spitfire—X4257—had a wing, built from scratch, with the new armament and service trials began on 20 August. Five days later R6761, 6770, 6889, 6904 and 6919 were withdrawn from No.19 Squadron and modified to the same standards. They were soon followed by R6776 and 6833. All these R-serialled Spitfires carried the suffix CIG after the digits on the Supermarine works dockets, and X4257, together with a number of X-serialled Spitfires, had the suffix CMG which, presumably, indicated cannon/machine gun.

P9504 and R6770, together with X4257, were despatched to Boscombe Down for trials with the new armament, R6770 having modified spars because the cannons were still jamming in tight turns. R6904 was returned to Eastleigh for modifications to its cartridge ejection chutes. The cannon wing was now known as the ‘B’ and with it the Spitfire‘s tare weight was increased to 4893 lb and at take off 6385. The four cannon wing was given some consideration at that time but was turned down until the twin cannon aircraft was proven in service. Production of the Mk IB Spitfire was agreed with Supermarine, who guaranteed delivery of ten aircraft in October rising to 20 a month by November, plus the delivery of the first four cannon variant powered by a Merlin XX engine by the end of September. By this time, however, the urgency for the cannon installation had diminished for the German daylight raids were faltering.

The first modified lB to go into action was R6889, which had rejoined No.19 Squadron on 3 October, and it was not an outstanding success. It was under powered and even with the promised Merlin lll engine had to be flown at maximum power to keep up with the Browning gun aircraft. The majority of converted Spitfires were never given an official designation and most of them had to be converted to Mk VB standards with Merlin 45 at a later date. All Browning gun Spitfires were to be retrospectively designated Mk IA and the few cannon, and mixed armament aircraft, Mk IB. There were no true Mk lBs built on the production line. The actual cost of converting a set of ‘A’ wings to accept the Hispano gun armament was £379 16s. To convert a set of wings to the full ‘B’ wing standards was £640 11s. The cannon aircraft were converted under Mod 260 issued on 3-7-40.

The British version of the Hispano cannon was jointly developed with the French Air Ministry at the Chatelerault Arsenal until the fall of France in May 1940. Development was then transferred to the RAF Section of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield. Series production was undertaken by four factories, one of which was the British Manufacturing and Research Co., a manufacturing subsidiary of Hispano Suiza.
ALTERNATIVE GUNS
Before leaving this history of the early cannon Spitfires mention must be made of other armament specified and tested during, and before, the same period. As long ago as July 1937 the Air Fighting Committee of the Air Ministry was considering a replacement of the .303 Browning machine gun and had issued a Memorandum on the 7th of that month for an ultra high speed gun capable of firing 2000rpm. The Memorandum called for trials with eight of the guns firing explosive ammunition and storage space for 4800 rounds. Full scale trials took place on 14 December 1937 with the Hungarian Gebauer gun and the effect was likened to a “welder's torch held against a stressed skin aircraft”. The new gun was intended to replace the Browning five years in the future. There were problems, of course, for increased rate of fire resulted in attendant barrel wear (Barrel life of the .5 in machine gun was said to be 7, 000 - 8,000 rounds) and increased weight. The suggestion was to drop the ultra high speed gun and concentrate on a gun with a higher muzzle velocity, which would provide an increased lethal range, but the additional velocity entailed a larger powder charge and cartridge. A compromise in the shape of an armour piercing .276in was suggested.

The Air Ministry took out insurance by asking for designs of two new .303in guns in March I938 as Browning replacements - the ultra-high-speed and the high muzzle velocity. A Blenheim airframe (K7154) was used for firing trials of the high velocity weapon on 9 December but penetration of vital, internal parts was insufficient. Blenheim K7041 was also used for the same weapon trials with better results when the gun was fired towards the target’s stern.

The Masden gun was also considered for the Spitfire as a replacement for the .303in Browning. This gun was the standard infantry model modified for remote, automatic control when installed in an aeroplane. The calibre was either 6.5, 8 or 11.35mm and the rate of fire increased from 450rpm to 1000 and 1200, and for this the special recoil spring had to be reinforced. The gun was belt fed and the rounds held together by steel links, this making the task of collecting the empty belt easy when compared to the standard gun belt. A 23mm Masden cannon was also considered and this, too, was belt fed with rounds connected with steel links, and it had a rate of fire of 400rpm. The Hispano company also produced a 23mm cannon, while Vickers had their .5in automatic gun, a 25.4mm, 37 and 40mm cannon. The first had a rate of fire of 450 to 650rpm; the second 100 and the last two 200. During the design/prototype stage of the Spitfire guns available were, Vickers 12.7mm, Hispano 20mm, Hispano 23mm, Vickers 25.4, Vickers 37mm, American Armament Co. 37mm, COW 37mm, Oerlikon 20mm.

Another new weapon to come to the Air Ministry’s attention was the American .5in Colt, examples of which arrived in England in June 1940. Drawings were ready the following month and trial installations commenced. and by the following August Supermarine were proceeding with a trial installation of six of the new guns, plus a second installation of six .5in and two 20mm Hispano cannons (with 120rpg), this being specified for the proposed Spitfire Mk Ill. ln the meantime the two 20mm cannon and four .303 Browning machine gun installation had been accepted and eventually developed into the “B” wing with the result that the Colt installations were put on a low priority on 9 December 1940 and the .5in machine gun eventually adopted several years later for the Spitfire Mk IX.

Before closing this chapter on Spitfire armament mention must be made of the work both BSA and Vickers completed on a version of the .5in Colt using a shaped charge. lt proved difficult to produce and was eventually abandoned. Also, the Air Ministry had listened to Dowding's idea for a larger weapon For the Spitfire and on 23 April 1940 gave approval for the development of a 13.2mm weapon based upon the French Hotchkiss gun. the new weapon being specified for the first Griffon engined Spitfire. the Mk IV. Supermarine also prepared a design study for a Spitfire armed with this gun with a Merlin engine as the Type 345.

[B Fraser]

In Birmingham, just off Tangmere Drive is Hawker Drive.......... which leads to Bader Walk.

:rolleyes:

[ex82watcher]

When my old school,King Edward VI,Lichfield merged with the adjacent comprehensive,their premises were named Bader Hall in recognition of Douglas,whereas the original grammar school became Johnson Hall.

[Basil]

It is said that you should never meet your heroes. My little story isn't at all big time.
I once met this famous Rock chick and was left with impression that she was bonkers.

[Wander00]

DB was a sqn ldr when shot down, so presumably repatriated as such. No promotion whilst in prison camp, yet a year or so after returning to UK he is a gp capt, when many are being reverted to substantive peacetime rank. So how com he skips through wg cdr to gp cap so quickly?

Secondly, and excuse my ignorance - what is actually the difference between machine gun and cannon, merely calibre, or a different way of loading and firing the two different weapons

[DB6]

Cannon = explosive shells. Machine guns = inert bullets (generally).

[longer ron]

DB was a sqn ldr when shot down, so presumably repatriated as such. No promotion whilst in prison camp, yet a year or so after returning to UK he is a gp capt, when many are being reverted to substantive peacetime rank. So how com he skips through wg cdr to gp cap so quickly?


From RAF unit histories https://www.unithistories.com/officers/raf_officers_b01.html

WS = War Substantive
A = Acting
T = Temporary

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x168/bader_84c856ed09aa8358b5eba7b8dd9540722c1085f5.jpg

[Yellow Sun]

Cannon = explosive shells. Machine guns = inert bullets (generally).

A real bit of thread drift, but I once went to the Proof Unit at Cold Meece, Staffordshire to watch 30mm being proof tested. The requirement was that the fuse did not arm until a safe time/distance from the muzzle. This was tested by firing rounds through a piece of sheet metal closer than the arming distance. Similarly, the shell had to burst after passing through the target so that the damage occurred inside the structure. Again a piece of sheet metal was employed and the round was observed as it passed through. The latter test was quite sobering when you reflected upon the damage that a single round might inflict upon an aircraft.

YS

[Asturias56]

I think this sort of post-mortem a bit pointless TBH

We know what Bader did, and yes, its important to know what he was like, warts & all, but that really doesn't change the impact he made

I find the modern tendency to judge historic figures by modern standards quite strange TBH - especially as there is nothing we can do about them now...............

[LOMCEVAK]

Uncannily, I had stumbled across the YouTube video only hours before this thread was started. One person who was in the video but I don't think has been mentioned on this thread yet was Douglas's wife, Joan. She passed away less than 4 years ago at the ripe old age of 97. In 1988 I had the great privilege of flying Joan in Charles Church's two-seat Spitfire. She was very excited to finally be able to fly in a Spitfire and made some comments skywards to let Douglas know! There are some days and sorties that you never forget (and I also flew Jeffrey Quill in the same aircraft that day but that is another story!).

In 1976 I went to a Spitfire symposium in Southampton, to celebrate the 40th anniversary of its first flight, and one event was a discussion about the Spitfire on stage in a theatre between Douglas, Adolf Galland and Johnnie Johnson. It was fascinating to listen to, informative and amusing. Joan did say to me that Adolf used to stay with them occasionally and that the conversation was lively!

Happy memories.

[Wander00]

Clearly I was mistaken, DB must have been a wg cdr of whatever sort when shot down. Wonder of promoted to gp cat so that he could retire "retaining his rank"

Thanks also for cannon v machine gun info, much as I had surmised

[India Four Two]

The requirement was that the fuse did not arm until a safe time/distance from the muzzle.

YS,
Can you tell me how the fuze worked?

[Yellow Sun]

YS,
Can you tell me how the fuze worked?

No idea I’m afraid, in fact I’m not even sure the chaps doing the proof test knew. I was only looking at what the round did and how it was ensured that it was doing it. How it did it was another field altogether. Proof involved a whole series of tests including:

a. Chamber pressure
b. Hang time
c. Case integrity
d. Fuse functions
e. Primer initiation
and possibly a couple more that I’ve forgotten.

This is was the 30mm Aden round and cannon combination. I also saw 20mm Hispano (although this was almost out of service), 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors. There was an interesting 7.62 tracer round test as well.

YS

[India Four Two]

I’ve not been able to find any information, whether for early cannon or contemporary ones. I’m intrigued as to how you pack a fuze into such a small space.

[Yellow Sun]

I’ve not been able to find any information, whether for early cannon or contemporary ones. I’m intrigued as to how you pack a fuze into such a small space.

I can't help you much,other than point you at this Imgur Gallery (https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW).

YS

[SASless]

Current issue .50 Caliber M-211 Round.

Uses a. pyrotechnical fuze system....armor piercing, incendiary, high explosive projectile.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211

[Mr Mac]

My late Father was with him in POW camp, and apparently he was a real pain in the neck. Camp apparently cheered and clapped when he was transferred to another camp, as his repeated baiting of the Goons as he would call them, just caused issues for everyone else. Reading comments above he probably thought they were cheering him !

Regards
Mr Mac

[Asturias56]

well I guess some people just liked a quiet life until the Armistice - Bader saw his job to continue to make life difficult for everyone

[Maxibon]

And we were always told that it is one’s duty to escape if made a PoW.

[Haraka]

As a kid I remember Bader's surname in RAF circles was commonly pronounced as "Bayder " which led to the apocryphal correction by his good self .

"Bayder? ,....... BAYDER!"

"It's BAADER!...., as in Bastard!!!!"

[GeeRam]

And we were always told that it is one’s duty to escape if made a PoW.

From what I remember of it being said, was the fact that with tin legs he was never realistically going to be able to escape, but his constant goon baiting caused issues for those that were trying to do so......

[SASless]

Perhaps by being a pain to the Goons.....their attention was focused upon him and his antics rather than other endeavors.

His antagonizing conduct may have been useful in that regard.

You suppose there are those that were confined with him that had the same mixed reaction to him in the POW Camps that they had before being imprisoned?



During the Vietnam war we had a Special Forces Officer, Rocky Versace, captured by the NVA/VC and held captive in the jungle of South Vietnam.

He was such a pain for his captors....that in the end they murdered him.

We also had a young Air Force pilot, Sean Sijan, who evaded capture for forty-six days before being captured after being shot down.

He continued his resistance by attempting to escape several times before dying due to injuries incurred during his escapes and resulting severe beatings and torture.

Both received the Medal of Honor for their actions as POW's.

Different Wars....different enemies....different repercussions for failed escapes.

Until the murder of Fifty escapers from Stalag Luft III ("The Great Escape") punishment was usually some solitary confinement in the "Cooler" as in general the Germans until late in the war were not very brutal in their treatment of Interned POW's from Western Forces.....not so for those from the East.


http://www.axpow.org/vietnamescapes.pdf

[Mr Mac]

Asturias 56
I think you were right to a degree, as many did correspondence courses, and if not officers, even worked outside the wire to break up boredom, especially those captured early in the conflict. My dad arrived via Bomber Command in late 1943 and escaped in 1945 from a marching column, though his motives were that due to low level strafing by US /RAF aircraft as it was becoming very dangerous to stay, rather than disrupting the German war effort. They were on the run for 15 days, and he watched the bombing of Hamelin during this time on his 21st birthday, eating raw potatoes, as he reminded me on my own 21st.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[Kemble Pitts]

...and I also flew Jeffrey Quill in the same aircraft that day but that is another story!


That is a story I'd very much like to hear; would you share? Quill seems to have been an altogether different sort of animal to Bader.

[roving]

Wander00, greetings;)


Back in the day I researched the WWII rank structure and the post war retained rank system which led me to this gem ...

--- HANSARD 1803–2005 (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/) → 1940s (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/sittings/1940s)→ 1944 (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/sittings/1944)→ April 1944 (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/sittings/1944/apr)→ 4 April 1944 (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/sittings/1944/apr/04)→ Written Answers (Commons) (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/sittings/1944/apr/04#written_answers)→ COAL INDUSTRY (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written_answers/1944/apr/04/coal-industry)ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS, PROMOTION)
HC Deb 04 April 1944 vol 398

§ (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1944/apr/04/royal-air-force-officers-promotion#S5CV0398P0_19440404_CWA_59)
Sir R. Glyn (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/people/colonel-ralph-glyn) asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can state the systems of promotion in the R.A.F. for air crews and officers engaged on ground duties, respectively; whether the distinction between acting rank and temporary rank is governed by any particular regulation; to what extent officers are debarred from any promotion if not promoted from acting temporary rank; and what is the position of Volunteer Reserve officers, many of whom are fairly senior and who had seen service either in the Army or Navy before joining up for employment during this war.
§ (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1944/apr/04/royal-air-force-officers-promotion#S5CV0398P0_19440404_CWA_60)
Sir A. Sinclair (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/people/sir-archibald-sinclair) The scheme of war-time promotion for officers in the R.A.F. can be briefly described as follows:

Substantive Promotion.

Promotion to substantive rank is confined to officers holding permanent commissions and is limited to vacancies on the 1939–40 peace establishment.

Time-Promotion.

Officers of the General Duties Branch (aircrews) are commissioned in the rank of pilot officer. After six months' service in that rank they are granted time-promotion to flying officer and after a further 18 months time-promotion to flight lieutenant, subject in each case to satisfactory service. For other officers there is time-promotion to the rank of flying officer after six months' satisfactory service in the rank of pilot officer, except in the Medical and Dental Branches where officers are entered as flying officers and are granted time-promotion to flight lieutenant after one year's satisfactory service.

Temporary Promotion.

Promotions to ranks outside the scope of time-promotions are made within the war establishment on the recommendations of Central Promotion Boards held at the Air Ministry.

Acting Promotion.

Acting rank is granted to officers employed in posts graded in a rank above their existing rank pending the availability of an officer of the appropriate substantive or temporary rank, and is tenable only so long as an officer is filling such a post. Acting ranks up to wing commander may be granted by commands; the acting rank of group captain and above is granted by the Air Ministry.

Officers who obtain an acting rank two or more steps above their basic rank and hold it for certain periods are given war substantive rank one rank below the acting rank and they cannot drop below this in war if they lose their acting rank.

Promotion Boards for temporary rank are held half-yearly and the claims of officers, whether holding acting rank or not, who have not been selected by one Board are considered by subsequent Boards.

As for the last part of the Question, the claims to promotion to temporary rank of R.A.F.V.R. officers with previous service are fully considered along with those of other officers. Promotions are of course limited to vacancies.

[PickyPerkins]

I find the modern tendency to judge historic figures by modern standards quite strange TBH - especially as there is nothing we can do about them now...............

"To arrive at a just estimate of a renowned man”s character one must judge it by the standards of his time, not ours."
Mark Twain, 1896.

[212man]

Perhaps by being a pain to the Goons.....their attention was focused upon him and his antics rather than other endeavors.

His antagonizing conduct may have been useful in that regard.

You suppose there are those that were confined with him that had the same mixed reaction to him in the POW Camps that they had before being imprisoned?



During the Vietnam war we had a Special Forces Officer, Rocky Versace, captured by the NVA/VC and held captive in the jungle of South Vietnam.

He was such a pain for his captors....that in the end they murdered him.

We also had a young Air Force pilot, Sean Sijan, who evaded capture for forty-six days before being captured after being shot down.

He continued his resistance by attempting to escape several times before dying due to injuries incurred during his escapes and resulting severe beatings and torture.

Both received the Medal of Honor for their actions as POW's.

Different Wars....different enemies....different repercussions for failed escapes.

Until the murder of Fifty escapers from Stalag Luft III ("The Great Escape") punishment was usually some solitary confinement in the "Cooler" as in general the Germans until late in the war were not very brutal in their treatment of Interned POW's from Western Forces.....not so for those from the East.


http://www.axpow.org/vietnamescapes.pdf

SAS - can you help explain tis apparent contradiction?

No American POW escaped from North Vietnam and successfully reached friendly forces.



In Vietnam more than 4% of American POWs successfully escaped and reached US forces.

[Vzlet]

Likely the difference between "North Vietnam" and "Vietnam".

[biscuit74]

Blossy,

Unfortunately, even Uncle Bill had accusations made against him when he was Governor General of Australia.

However, he was a remarkable general. My Dad was in the XIVth Army and wouldn’t hear a bad word said about him.

A favourite anecdote from Slim’s biography, paraphrased from memory, is that after he had given a rousing informal chat to a group of troops in the jungle, one of them shouted:

”We’re right behind you, Sir!”

Slim responded: “ No, actually I’ll be behind you!”

As far as Dogsbody is concerned, after having read of his treatment of his Batman, while a POW and his subsequent behaviour, including his rudeness to female staff at WLAC, I’m firmly in the camp that his behaviour was unacceptable. His achievements as a fighter pilot are immaterial.

My father had the same view of General Slim as yours, India Four Two. He felt Slim made the Forgotten Fourteenth an Army with real pride in itself, rightly.
Whereas a friend who met Mr Bader was disappointed and unimpressed by his rude brusqueness. A shame.

[Pontius Navigator]

Likely the difference between "North Vietnam" and "Vietnam".
We had a presentation by a POW held in South Vietnam. Much of his captivity was confined in a bamboo cage and immersed in the swamp. Then B52 bombed his area. He said he became the instant B52 expert even though he had been captured even before B52 were considered. In the confused aftermath he escaped.