Wheels Up KA350 After Engine Start Extended Delays Before Taxiing

[BlkAv8tor2003]

Hey looking for anyone who is familiar with wheels up King air 350. I work the line for a major FBO and wheels up is a regular customer and my question is after they start up engines we have an extremely long delay before they can taxi and I'm trying to figure out why?

Here at KSDL (PHX) everyone one knows how hot it can get and the ramp temps are sometimes 35* hotter than the OAT. When we are marshalling them out they can sit for 20 mins or longer and it's not due to ground holds, taxi clearances but we can't get a straight answer about what they may be doing.

I'm looking for any technical info regarding their after start procedures that has them sitting so long while we are roasting in the intense heat. I'm a pilot but not a paid pilot yet so I do understand the older King Air gyro spin up and stabilization but I don't know if the the newer 350's have to observe the same wait time after start up. Any info is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[holdingagain]

I know nothing about WU however I do know that there is nothing required on a KA350 to prevent you from departing the FBO in a prompt manner just like all your other customers.

My guess the delay is due to how their pilot standard company operating procedures are written.

[dc9-32]

You could ask the pilots or would that be too easy.

[His dudeness]

"but we can't get a straight answer about what they may be doing."

This would lead me to believe the TO tried that approach already.

And btw, any Gyro that takes more than a few minutes to spin up, I´d have removed for repairs. Typically in a PL21 equipped KA, it takes something like 2 minutes after second startup to be ready to taxi, if you`re slow. (and not training or troubleshooting)

[Mister Warning]

IRS alignment? Sorry if that is a stupid answer - haven't flown a turboprop with glass (ever) or a turboprop (at all) since the '80s.

[holdingagain]

Mister Warning, No IRS fitted, normally a single GPS

[Mister Warning]

Thanks Holding..... not even a retrofit AHRS?
https://www.rockwellcollins.com/~/media/Files/Unsecure/Marketing%20Bulletins%20Rev1/BRS/MBPro%20Line%2021%20Major%20Retrofit%20King%20Air%20B200%20B RS110119-3M%20012014.aspx

[BizJetJock]

I think the WU 350s are Fusion aircraft, so yes, AHRS and interminable setup after start, particularly when you're new to it.
https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Products-and-Services/Business-Aviation/Flight-Deck/Pro-Line-Fusion/Pro-Line-Fusion-Upgrade-For-Beechcraft-King-Air.aspx

[holdingagain]

MW, no problem with retro fit. No time on Fusion but would assume once competent you could be off the ramp just as quick as the next guy

[BlkAv8tor2003]

You could ask the pilots or would that be too easy.
Asking several crews over several weeks was the first thing I did. I would get everything from loading flight plans, IRS and GPS alignment issues but the one thing I didn't get was policy or ops manual requires etc. The only reason I questioned it in the first place was it's never consistent.

[ksjc]

Does this sitting for 20 mins occur during every Wheels Up departure and only on the Wheels Up King Air? Often times there are delays at the destination airport and a departing aircraft will be held on the ramp until ATC can accept them. Most pilots operating an aircraft with an APU will check about flow and delays before engine start. Perhaps the Wheels Up gang doesn’t do this.

[Wings on the Winger]

If it's first departure of the day then there will be run up checks on the 350 to check, autofeather amongst other items. These are first flight of the day items only from the Beechcraft checklist but Wheels Up may have mandated this is done every flight. The 350 I've flown had Proline 21 not Fusion & on occasion we had ground requesting our delay in taxi.

[733driver]

Does this sitting for 20 mins occur during every Wheels Up departure and only on the Wheels Up King Air? Often times there are delays at the destination airport and a departing aircraft will be held on the ramp until ATC can accept them. Most pilots operating an aircraft with an APU will check about flow and delays before engine start. Perhaps the Wheels Up gang doesn’t do this.

It says in the OP that it's not due to ground holds.

[megan]

Practice with some operators is to do a ground run to get the full list of checks done when the pilot assumes duty, as they are of some length, thus enabling a quick get away when departing.

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

Speaking as a former WheelsUp pilot on the KingAir; There is a very long and complete check for the first flight of the day. It involves a complete electrical, trim, auto-pilot, de-icing, pressurization, and other items check. The check section in the QRH is three pages long. It does take a long time. Later flights in the day have a greatly reduced check list.

[Global_Global]

Speaking as a former WheelsUp pilot on the KingAir; There is a very long and complete check for the first flight of the day. It involves a complete electrical, trim, auto-pilot, de-icing, pressurization, and other items check. The check section in the QRH is three pages long. It does take a long time. Later flights in the day have a greatly reduced check list.

Second question: does Wheelsup charge actual Block Hours, calculated Blockhours (=FH plus allowing time for taxi of say 10 min) or FH? :8

[BlkAv8tor2003]

Speaking as a former WheelsUp pilot on the KingAir; There is a very long and complete check for the first flight of the day. It involves a complete electrical, trim, auto-pilot, de-icing, pressurization, and other items check. The check section in the QRH is three pages long. It does take a long time. Later flights in the day have a greatly reduced check list.

Zaphod, I get it for first flight of the day but what takes so long when the aircraft has been flying around? Are the general checklist more extensive than other King Air's privately owned meaning is this a "Wheels Up" thing?

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

Second question: does Wheelsup charge actual Block Hours, calculated Blockhours (=FH plus allowing time for taxi of say 10 min) or FH? :8

l am not sure on that one. I know that the customer only pays for occupied hours, what ever that is. I think it is block time but I am not sure.

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

It’s a GAMA thing. Wheels Up, until the purchase of Travel Management Co, did not have an operating certificate. If you have ever attended a Flight Safety course on the king air you would know that they teach every single check in the book. It is a company thing. When I flew King Airs part 91 a long time ago we did the extensive checks only occasionally. Actually maintenance did a lot of them like vacuum and pressurization checks.

One reason is that these aircraft are away from maintenance bases for a long time. The extensive checks find the problems when they occur. Many part 91 operators get the airplanes back at home base every night or every other night and they are able to do these checks by maintenance or in the hanger.

It’s just the way they do things there.

[Journey Man]

It’s a GAMA thing.
General Aviation Manufacturers Association?

[avionimc]

The extra time is probably due to inputting the flight plan and clearance into the FMS.

The first flight of the day tests (auto-fx, governors, gnd idle stop, etc.) are usually performed in a remote area due to the extra noise and prop-wash they produce. A considerate pilot would not do those in front of the marshal or near the FBO.

King Air aircraft do not have APU; and, having an inertial navigation system would be the exception, never seen one installed, though I believe it was an option in a different century.

[BlkAv8tor2003]

It’s a GAMA thing. Wheels Up, until the purchase of Travel Management Co, did not have an operating certificate. If you have ever attended a Flight Safety course on the king air you would know that they teach every single check in the book. It is a company thing. When I flew King Airs part 91 a long time ago we did the extensive checks only occasionally. Actually maintenance did a lot of them like vacuum and pressurization checks.

One reason is that these aircraft are away from maintenance bases for a long time. The extensive checks find the problems when they occur. Many part 91 operators get the airplanes back at home base every night or every other night and they are able to do these checks by maintenance or in the hanger.

It’s just the way they do things there.

Are these checks after arrival during a quick turn the same? (On the ground less than 30 mins)
As Line Techs, we like Wheel Up and the crews in Phoenix and I can't believe they think we're going to stand out in front of the aircraft ready to marshal them out for 30 mins while these checks are performed. (We normally check with the crew to see how long they will be running engines and checklists and to call ops when they're ready to taxi) Ramp temps around 145* when the OAT is 110* is pretty normal so hopefully the crews don't feel abandoned when we leave them because of the temps.