NORWEGIAN 787s

[Gurnard]

B787-9 SE-RXM was delivered in mid-June but has never entered service - status "stored".
What is the reason for this? With other branches of Norwegian having to sub-charter for the Max situation as well as at LGW for B787-9s why could this aircraft not be used for short-term cover until it enters service to destinations from Sweden?

[Hotel Tango]

Same problem as other 787s? From what I could glean it's also awaiting engine replacements.

[rog747]

DY/DI/D8 have massive logical problems (and costs ££££'s) to cover their current schedules for both long and short haul, plus to cover the new routes announced...

They have 5 long haul ACMI aircraft contracts on duty from LGW and DUB to cover the 787's that are AOG due RR engine recalls....

Passenger loyalty and experience is rapidly waning as the ACMI aircraft used far way short of the new Dreamliner experience, and DI/DY not being able to offer their full service product

[Gurnard]

Same problem as other 787s? From what I could glean it's also awaiting engine replacements.
I find that incredible. A brand-new aircraft (presumably with brand-new engines!) which cannot enter service before its basically unused engines are replaced! That seems to speak volumes about 21st century Boeing. Understandable to a point if it is what is equivalent to a recall in the motor industry - as with the ongoing programme with used 787s. But to take delivery of an aircraft which cannot be used? The mind boggles. Presumably the position with SE-RXZ (delivered more recently) will be the same.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Presumably the position with SE-RXZ (delivered more recently) will be the same.
RXZ is ex G-CKNZ which was delivered quite a while ago

[PIK3141]

As I type four are here in Prestwick, two stored, two at the Chevron hangar. SE-RXY arrived from Charleston on 31st July. Aircraft arriving are in for engine rectification or are donating engines to others which leave. Clearly not enough serviceable engines and so you find brand new aircraft donating their new engines to older aircraft which return to service.

[Gurnard]

RXZ is ex G-CKNZ which was delivered quite a while ago
Oops... that was a typo. Meant SE-RXY as the brand-new a/c..
Thanks PIK3141 for the explanation in your post.

[Torquelink]

find that incredible. A brand-new aircraft (presumably with brand-new engines!) which cannot enter service before its basically unused engines are replaced! That seems to speak volumes about 21st century Boeing.

Not sure you can blame Boeing this time. Try RR.

[22/04]

I also know that Virgin try to ground individual aircraft for less than one year as this reduces the work that has to be done to return them to service.

[nivsy]

X3 of Norwegian 787 seen at JFK late last night from what I think I saw going back to EU land. If 4 are at PIK how many do the carrier have working?

[Vokes55]

X3 of Norwegian 787 seen at JFK late last night from what I think I saw going back to EU land. If 4 are at PIK how many do the carrier have working?

JFK gets around nine Norwegian 787s a day, as well as an Evelop A333 wet-lease and another two 787s a day at EWR.


Passenger loyalty and experience is rapidly waning as the ACMI aircraft used far way short of the new Dreamliner experience, and DI/DY not being able to offer their full service product


Many of their competitors are having far bigger issues that have improved any loads lost to "passenger loyalty waning". Think SAS strikes and BA proposed strikes - load factors and advanced bookings at Norwegian are at an all time high.

[Voldermort]

Quick update, last night LN-LNS also arrived at PIK (from CDG) so that now makes 5 on the ground here

[pabely]

X3 of Norwegian 787 seen at JFK late last night from what I think I saw going back to EU land. If 4 are at PIK how many do the carrier have working?
37 Dreamliners across the various parts of the group. If you do some research on FR24 you could work out which are working.

[toledoashley]

https://twitter.com/AeronewsRO/status/1160250283915563008

[Curious Pax]

Perhaps relevant? In Beijing you can see about 15 x Air China 787s standing side by side with missing engines.

They only have 14, and a quick check just now showed 5 in the air in service.....

[Vokes55]

One of their 787s has apparently hit the blast fence at Gatwick on push back this morning. Not having much luck unfortunately.

[nivsy]

One of their 787s has apparently hit the blast fence at Gatwick on push back this morning. Not having much luck unfortunately.
Push tugs seem to be causing a few issues these days...but yes you are right. No luck for Norwegian.

[Dairyground]

One of their 787s has apparently hit the blast fence at Gatwick on push back this morning. Not having much luck unfortunately.

But that could be two working engines going to another airframe - if they can be transported to PIK or wherever.

[jensdad]

More trouble at t'mill...
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0813/1068612-norwegian-air-to-discontinue-transatlantic-routes/?fbclid=IwAR0GkIl0vVRjbbRkrINrJbr4zEnGSl4q_nnDLdNCUkJbGvLOx3 0q5TsdFus

[JonEMA]

Does anyone know the latest on Noerwegian 787 fleet vis a vis engines...?

Given that the Trent 1000 must be decoupled and inspected more often where does this leave Norwegian and their ability to mount a meaningful 787 schedule this winter..?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/virgin-atlantic-ceo-predicts-airline-144030202.html

[PIK3141]

Nine at Prestwick today, some rotating through, at least 5 now in storage.

[Vokes55]

That’s why they’ve significantly reduced the winter flying program this year. No point operating routes with no winter demand like Seattle and Chicago in January using wet leased aircraft.

[brian_dromey]

Norwegian have 5 787s parked up for the winter, am I interpreting this correctly?

Its one one thing for Jet2 to park used 733 & 757s, but sparking new 787s with large capital/leases to pay.

[Vokes55]

Norwegian have 5 787s parked up for the winter, am I interpreting this correctly?

Its one one thing for Jet2 to park used 733 & 757s, but sparking new 787s with large capital/leases to pay.

Like BA, Virgin and every other RR-powered 787 operator have been doing for the last 3 years?

I don’t think 5 is an official number, the inspection program is being ramped up this winter by all accounts. Shedding seasonal routes for the Winter to get the bulk of the work done during a period when there is no money to be made is sensible.

Also worth noting that Norwegian do the majority of their maintenance in Prestwick, so aircraft will be passing through for other reasons than RR-related ones. This may of course change when the new Boeing hangar at LGW comes on-line.

[JonEMA]

Like BA, Virgin and every other RR-powered 787 operator have been doing for the last 3 years?

I don’t think 5 is an official number, the inspection program is being ramped up this winter by all accounts. Shedding seasonal routes for the Winter to get the bulk of the work done during a period when there is no money to be made is sensible.

Also worth noting that Norwegian do the majority of their maintenance in Prestwick, so aircraft will be passing through for other reasons than RR-related ones. This may of course change when the new Boeing hangar at LGW comes on-line.

The 'park or fly ' decision is an interesting one......
Out of interest...how many BA and VS 787 aircraft were parked up last winter...?

[Vokes55]

The 'park or fly ' decision is an interesting one......
Out of interest...how many BA and VS 787 aircraft were parked up last winter...?

I’m not sure about last Winter, but currently at least three BA and two VS 787s are engineless at LHR. This farcical situation shows no signs of ending.

[JonEMA]

Thanks Vokes.........looks like Norwegian's RR powered 787s will be mostly grounded this winter........

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rome-blowout-turns-up-heat-on-rolls-royce-s-trent-engine-nb6svvcst

[inOban]

Surely the cost of all this is being borne by RR?

[back to Boeing]

Surely the cost of all this is being borne by RR?

eventually when the 2 legal departments can thrash out the details.

[JonEMA]

eventually when the 2 legal departments can thrash out the details.
Meanwhile, what will their winter transatlantic schedule look like..?.....same but with more wet leases or a cull similar to their European?

[racedo]

eventually when the 2 legal departments can thrash out the details.

From a Norwegian perspective the cash from Boeing and RR is what will keep the company going for an extra year or two.

[back to Boeing]

From a Norwegian perspective the cash from Boeing and RR is what will keep the company going for an extra year or two.

Depends on when they get the cash.

[racedo]

Depends on when they get the cash.

Not really. Banks and Lenders will happily lend money now against future income. The whole Invoicing Discount industry is based on it. Assume would get 100 million in 1 yrs time then lender would lend you 80% now and 10% when rest of it comes in with 10% being their cut.

[JonEMA]

Not really. Banks and Lenders will happily lend money now against future income. The whole Invoicing Discount industry is based on it. Assume would get 100 million in 1 yrs time then lender would lend you 80% now and 10% when rest of it comes in with 10% being their cut.

I'm not sure anyone would be prepared to lend DY anything given their perilous position. The prospect of RR compensation might play well in another rights issue though......

[racedo]

I'm not sure anyone would be prepared to lend DY anything given their perilous position. The prospect of RR compensation might play well in another rights issue though......

People will always lend money of there is a return on it. IF insurance assessors say that at a minimum RR was going to pay £10M (ignore the real figures) then basically you would find a lender who would lend 60% of this now with 30% later when it is actually paid and their fee is 10%. If RR only pay £8M then lender still gets their £1M. Always a risk nothing is paid but they will account for that anyway.

It may seem crazy risk but when a bank charges you to hold money then it is not.

[INKJET]

There are 50 engines that need replacing to get them all back up to scratch, they have deferred their bond repayments due December and August by two years and almost all of the unprofitable flying has been dropped, the loads out of London have been full despite wet lease thanks to BA pilots strike action.

Next months results will make interesting reading.

[JonEMA]

There are 50 engines that need replacing to get them all back up to scratch, they have deferred their bond repayments due December and August by two years and almost all of the unprofitable flying has been dropped, the loads out of London have been full despite wet lease thanks to BA pilots strike action.

Next months results will make interesting reading.

Indeed.......Ink

How quickly can the 50 engines be fixed..?... Rolls are reporting that it will take until the end of 2nd qtr to get through the backlog. Presumably, there is a priority list to work through based on cycles but we've heard nothing from Norwegian about how there's are phased and the effect it may have on the already depleted winter schedule (down 20% YOY)

Bond defaults give them enough cash until just past Christmas by my reckoning so expect another rights issue at some point.

Pulling unprofitable flights out of the schedule is quite easy and relatively instant I imagine. Getting the costs to follow will be more tricky I think.

BA strikes certainly helped I'm sure and I bet Norwegian wished they had more seats available for those high yielding, late bookers.:0

[clipstone1]

The bigger issue, is Norwegian are having to ground aircraft that are costing them anywhere around $1m a month in lease payments, then wet lease in Wamos and Hifly etc to cover, costhing them lets say another $1m per aircraft per month. SO already $1m an aircraft down every month.

Its all well saying RR wiull cough some compensation at some point, but a) it may not over the additional costs and b) may take years to come in, causing a cash flow issue in between.

[Trinity 09L]

Out of interest, who will replace the T Cook long haul flights for the forthcoming UK-Caribbean winter schedule, DY aircraft?

[clipstone1]

Norwegian don't have enough of their own LH aircraft, hence the various wet leases in they have. Winter longhaul will be a challenge, perhaps a non European operator?

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.eturbonews.com/354569/norwegian-air-shuttle-denies-buying-russian-ill-fated-sukhoi-superjet-ssj-100-planes/?fbclid=IwAR3t5VKEs49f_z8Bs1ruXnGMdpQ4ey1V5HQoNf608Us8WjtOku a-LkOXD58

[Smooth Airperator]

Ininteresting. I think a courtship has started that will at least begin to advance discussions on opening up the Siberian corridor to Norwegian. Something they desperately need.

[EI-BUD]

I've seen some comments on LinkedIn and other channels on this topic. The only case for Norwegian adding an extra type to the fleet is with a major cash injection. The complexity associated with hiring relevant crew, maintenance and parts for the fleet and the added complexity that comes with such a move would not appear feasible.

Norwegian's opinion on the MAX status could play a role in this. Sukhoi need to get this machine into a market with scale in the western world... however, Sukhoi could do something creative with this; example. Hypothetical of course;

Sukhoi agree to do a sort of ACMI arrangement to fill the gap for some 737MAX routes, paint a fleet in DY colours,operate them from one base of DY, install MRO facilities at same base, prove the operational case for other carriers to come on board. It seems like a good little aircraft.

Does anybody have any knowledge of it's economics outside of capital or lease costs, ie operational costs?

Thanks.
EI-BUD

[SWBKCB]

But how would that work? The Sukhoi is half the size of anything in the rest of the fleet. Maybe the SSJ is suited for some of the domestic/regional routes, but a fleet of 40? Surely Sukhoi blew it with the the Cityjet/SN experience.

[VickersVicount]

One of the PIK stored 789s SE-RXY on the move today..