Hunter Training

[ex82watcher]

A few years ago I was visiting an aviation museum with a friend,the two of us having been in the past (civilian)controllers at Eastern Radar.We fell into conversation with one of the museum guides who had been in ATC in the RAF,but subsequently went through aircrew selection and began training as a pilot,but had only completed (I think) about 30 hours before he was 'chopped',and I said 'so all your flying was on JPs then?'But he had been on a Buccaneer station,and said that his Station Commander had made arrangements for his training to be done 'in house',and all his flying was on Hunters from the start,and I just wondered if this was highly unusual,or did other similar events take place ?

[Chris Kebab]

Yep unusual - so unusual I'd call it BS!

[LOMCEVAK]

It’s a ‘No’ from me. That never happened.

[ExAscoteer]

Jackanory, Jackanory...

[Evalu8ter]

Lots of Hunters on Bucc stations, he may well have picked up plenty of rides and got some stick-time, but highly unlikely he did a semi-structured unofficial course.

[ex82watcher]

He did sound so convincing at the time,but later ,on reflection,it did sound somewhat unlikely,so thanks for confirming my doubts.If only he had said yes when asked if all his flying had been on JPs !

[sharpend]

Did you spot his nose growing longer?

[just another jocky]

There is an example of short cuts when a badged navigator went solo in a Tornado GR1 (that's a strike ac with no rear seat controls and with another navigator in the back seat).

It doesn't mean the case the OP mentions happened, just that these things do, on occasion, occur.

[Treble one]

You will all know better than me of course, but in the days of the Gnat as the Advanced FJ training aircraft, didn't the 'tall lads' end up doing their Advanced FJ training in the Hunter.....?

[Sleeve Wing]

I went through JP3 and Vampire to Hunter, each an ideal step up. That was "interesting" enough.
Later, of course, when the Vampire was sidelined, studes did a stack more hours on the JP5.
They were then posted straight on to an extended T7/T8 course before further conversions; I think 100hours instead of the previous 10-12 hours before single seat. The story comes under the "Highly unlikely" heading, I feel.
Interesting comment from Treble one, "didn't the 'tall lads' end up doing their Advanced FJ training in the Hunter.....?"
This is quite feasible. We had a "tall lad" whose thigh length was too much to clear the instrument panel of a GA11 in the event of ejection. He completed all his training in a T8 with the right hand seat "blanked" for all solo flights.

[Dominator2]

My Flying Training progression was JP3, JP5, Hunter T7, F6 and then TWU and Phantom OCU. I should have flown the Gnat at Valley but was involved in a RTA. Once I gained a Med Cat the CFI said "you can either wait 9 month for a Gnat course or start on Hunters next week". The decision was easy.

Apart from the Hunters at Valley being used for RAF students who were too big for the Gnat it was also used for foreign students. While I was at Valley we had Singaporeans and pilots from many Middle Eastern countries including Oman and Kuwait. The atmosphere on 3 Sqn at Valley was really relaxed and good fun. Because the aircraft had fewer vices than the Gnat we gained extra solo trips in the Hunter F6 (the hottest Hunter around). I was lucky enough to hold beween AFTS and TWU at Valley and continue to be allocated Hunter hours. Between both courses and holding I accumulated over 200 hrs on the Hunter, how lucky.

The natural progression in types, the flying hours available and the continuity greatly assisted in mastering the Phantom. (In truth I didn't master the Phantom until I had gained over 1000 hrs).

[BEagle]

On my 4FTS course a couple of our number were too tall for the Gnat, so did their flying on the Hunter instead. Also on the Hunter course were Hamid, an Arab prince who drove a pink V12 E-type and another Arab student (Jordanian?), Sammy. who had an excellent sense of humour and was nothing like the other.

One day he and his QFI climbed in and out of 2 T7s, both of which went U/S on start. Then they tried a third, but by then the weather had clamped.... "Well, Sammy, it looks like Big G has got it in for us today", said his QFI as they walked back to the Ops desk. "Ah no sir" said Sammy, "More like Big A!".

[Union Jack]

This is quite feasible. We had a "tall lad" whose thigh length was too much to clear the instrument panel of a GA11 in the event of ejection. He completed all his training in a T8 with the right hand seat "blanked" for all solo flights.
Appreciating that it's not exactly like for like, the back story (you'll see what I did there.....) at Posts 7 to 11 of the https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/269985-torrey-canyon-40-years.html?highlight=bodger may be of interest.

Jack

[Audax]

There was a similar occasion on the Lightning OCU when a student holding prior to Valley claimed the CI was so impressed with him that he was skipping other training and going direct to the Lightning—absolute bull. He still managed to crash a Lightning even after full training!

I went through Valley on the Gnat. Later in life going through CFS, initially going to the Gnat but when measured was deemed too tall, Hunters all gone by then so JPs it was, must admit I had a jolly good time at Linton.

[jindabyne]

Beagle
I'm not sure that we had any Saudis on No 3 Sqn, 72-76. I do know that we had Kuwaitis, Jordanians, Iraqis, and Singaporeans. As Flt and Sqn Cdr, I made a point of flying with them all, regularly. One them was Lt Bahdr Al Gaith. A big chap, likeable, and very proficient. He had a bright pink, powerful, Ford Capri. I know, because when he left on graduation, he gave it to me! Needless to say that I told OC Admin, and left it in the OM car park. Last I saw of it.
There was one Iraqi, whose name I will not mention, that was not a likeable person, and a poor student. He was responsible for my Boss's death.

[BEagle]

jindabyne , there was a fatal Hunter accident near Shawbury involving a Jordanian student in 1973, but when was the Iraqi student accident?

The 2 Arab students on 3 sqn in my time were a Qatari prince (he had the E-type) and Sammy, whose nationality I cannot recall. A bit of a clever chap with electronics too - he converted a radio he had so that it would act as a transmitter and then used it to play taped Arab music to another radio he had whilst he took a bath.

[Krystal n chips]

jindabyne , there was a fatal Hunter accident near Shawbury involving a Jordanian student in 1973, but when was the Iraqi student accident?

The 2 Arab students on 3 sqn in my time were a Qatari prince (he had the E-type) and Sammy, whose nationality I cannot recall. A bit of a clever chap with electronics too - he converted a radio he had so that it would act as a transmitter and then used it to play taped Arab music to another radio he had whilst he took a bath.

I think the reference concerns the mid-air at Valley the remains of which landed on a holiday caravan park sadly killing several holidaymakers. The accident occurred around the mid morning break time in Gaydon hangar, it was a nice sunny day so we were all outside and had the misfortune to witness the accident.

The "lighter side " for want of a better term given the tragic circumstances, was the fire engine that went through the crash gate located opposite the then popular tourist parking area on the immediate right as you crossed the railway bridge......allegedly, there were claims for damages due to the redistribution of the crash gate into various parked vehicles ....some will recall the signs saying parking in this location " was not a good idea ".

[57mm]

IIRC, a Valley T7 crashed on approach to Shawbury in 73. Sadly, both crewmembers did not survive. I believe OC3 and and a foreign student were the crew.

[BEagle]

57mm, yes, that's the one to which I referred. But the student was Jordanian, not Iraqi.

[jindabyne]

The student was O/C Nusierat; his instructor on that flight was OC 3 Sqn, Ron Etheridge. Nusierat was an Iraqi. The day prior to that fatal accident I had failed him on his final review test; but protocol for that country dictated that the ultimate decision was to be taken by the Sqn Cdr. And so it was. They were doing a P Div into Shawbury, and were on a GCA in manual. The aircraft dived into the ground, wings level, from about 600 feet. Friday, 2 Nov 73. No cause could be found for the accident, but the squadron QFIs had a view.

[jindabyne]

K n C
The Hunter mid-air was on 10Aug 72. The students were Charles Ash and O/C Shafi (Jordanian). One woman was killed in the Silver Bay park. They collided at the start of the downwind leg. I also witnessed the collision, taxying out in a T7.
So many fatals at Valley in the seventies :sad:

[BEagle]

jindabyne , for some reason the reports state that he was Jordanian, but is clearly incorrect.

A good friend of mine was on the Gnat course at the time; when I chatted with him on the occasion of a landaway nav trip to Valley on my JP course he told me about the Shawbury accident. As you have intimated, the cause was never really ascertained without any doubt, but a lot of people had their views...

[jindabyne]

BEags,
Won't die in a ditch (altho' there is one twixt here and pub!) over Nuseriat's nationality - I could be wrong, and he may well have been Jordanian. I do recall that he was not a pleasant young man.

[phil9560]

Would the aforementioned Iraqi/Jordanian student have been through RAF OASC ?

[jindabyne]

Don't know I'm afraid.

[MPN11]

ex82watcher ... give me a year and I’ll PM my guess about your bullsh1tter. I was at ERD for much of the 70s (7 years on and off).

[Wander00]

Jindabayne - a fair few in the 60s. ISTR 5 at least, may have been 6 in my time, first 5 months of 66. " In the case of engine failure (Gnat) solo students will eject. Instructors will use their discretion then eject".

On the question of Hunters, my basic QFI at the Towers was John Metcalfe, a creamy. I believe he died in the 70s instructing on the Hunter. any one have any details. He was a great guy and I still remember him with affection, he certainly was to my mind one of the better instructors, certainly from the "understanding" perspective

[spekesoftly]

On the question of Hunters, my basic QFI at the Towers was John Metcalfe, a creamy. I believe he died in the 70s instructing on the Hunter. any one have any details.

The link below mentions a Flt Lt J R Metcalfe:-

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/155365

[Wander00]

Well, that's the guy. Very sad, but I am most grateful.

W

[small_dog]

There is an example of short cuts when a badged navigator went solo in a Tornado GR1 (that's a strike ac with no rear seat controls and with another navigator in the back seat).

Out of interest, what happened to him? I remember a member of CFS talking about this to other QFIs in the crewroom of my UAS in 2000 (and it stuck in my mind due to its unusual nature).

[India Four Two]

Late 60s, I was on a dual-sortie from Shawbury in a Chipmunk, when a Valley Hunter came on the Local frequency. The pilot, who had a middle-eastern accent, was clearly having difficulties with the tower's instructions and my instructor, who was shocked by what he heard, switched over to Approach at the appropriate time to continue listening to the saga. The pilot continued to have difficulties when the controller was trying to vector him around a target "altitude unknown". We then saw a Hunter overhead and the penny dropped! A quick switch to Local and my instructor reported our position. The controller was not amused!

[Cannylad]

There was an instructor on the Jaguar OCU who had been on the F4 but converted onto the Jaguar whilst in Germany on an ad hoc basis. Never completed the OCU course himself.

[dook]

Cannylad,

Could you PM me please who that was ?

I am an ex-226 OCU instructor.

[dctyke]

There is an example of short cuts when a badged navigator went solo in a Tornado GR1 (that's a strike ac with no rear seat controls and with another navigator in the back seat).

It doesn't mean the case the OP mentions happened, just that these things do, on occasion, occur.

Not withstanding who sat in which seats I believe there were a few twin stick tornado GR1's , Tornado GR1 ZA 362 (Twin Stick Trainer) is in the Highland Aviation Museum

[RAFEngO74to09]

50 of the original Tornado GR1 were twin-stick.