207 Squadron

[Old-Duffer]

RAF News shows the second F35 Sqn to be : 207, a unit disbanded in circa 1984.

Given the RAF's 'low number' policy (except 617) for squadrons and the plethora of other 'claims' which must be out there, does anybody know the reason for the 207 nameplate to be reactivated?

Old Duffer

[Valiantone]

Because 201 through to 208 were ex RNAS units renumbered when the RAF formed.

Its probably explained somewhere deep within the F-35 threads but I ain't looking

I'm sure someone else will confirm

[Tankertrashnav]

Maybe to try and fool the general public into thinking there are 206 other squadrons out there somewhere?

[Jobza Guddun]

Generally, I'd surmise they picked an early 200 series number because of the RNAS/RAF (Joint) connection.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-f-35-squadron-named-207-squadron-become-ocu/

Specifically why 207, maybe as it was a bomber (strike) sqn as opposed to an army co-op/fighter recce (fighter) sqn like 208? All the others being Coastal Command up to 211?

[Valiantone]

Not to mention the connection between 207 Sqn and Marham when it was based with Valiants..

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you for the above ideas/views, however this throws up a separate question as to whether there are to be any 800 series squadrons operating the type and possibly 700 series units to train the RN component of the force.

Were I a cynic (perish the thought) I might say that when the RAF went to look for the squadron silver etc in the store, they found that 207s was the only lot that hadn't been looted due to lax management and hence could be recovered without too much dirty washing being exposed.

O-D

[t7a]

Think 809 is being resurrected by the RN.

[Brian 48nav]

The last boss of 207 sometimes posts here - friendly pelican 2 - ( last seen a year ago here ). I wonder if he is in the know?

Editing - I'd forgotten the number was allocated to an FTS, I was referring to the last OC when it was a 'proper' squadron and not a reserve sqn'.

[insty66]

As explained by ACM Hiller HERE (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-f-35-squadron-named-207-squadron-become-ocu/)

[Easy Street]

Given the RAF's 'low number' policy (except 617)

What ‘low number’ policy would that be? Perhaps you mean the ‘seniority’ policy? And the 617 exception also applies to 120: both were awarded their standards before the requisite 25 years of service.

Were I a cynic (perish the thought) I might say that when the RAF went to look for the squadron silver etc in the store, they found that 207s was the only lot that hadn't been looted due to lax management and hence could be recovered without too much dirty washing being exposed.

Were I tactless and confrontational I might say that you were a bullsh*tter.

[Old-Duffer]

Easy Street,

Do please enlighten me as to why I have offended you so!

Whilst my post was meant as a jocular comment as to why 207 was chosen, the saga about the squadron/unit silver, which used to be held in the 'Central repository' at 7 MU south of Gloucester and subsequently moved around with what has politely been described as 'lack of attention to the finer points of the security of valuable non-public property' is something which might be worthy of a fairly deep investigation. Should you have been a member of - say - a disbanded unit and if you can say that you are satisfied that the valuable non-public property, which had not been correctly sold or returned to the person/family which gifted it, is safe and well looked after and still matches the entries in the Property Book, then I shall permit you to brand me as the output of a male bovine's rear end.

I invite your response.

O-D

[Easy Street]

Do please enlighten me as to why I have offended you so!

I invite your response.

Using a public forum to pronounce with an air of authority on squadron numbering policy (incorrectly) and then casting aspersions on contemporary standards of probity as a way of reconciling your lack of understanding with the observed facts? Something that happened at a unit which closed a quarter of a century ago is hardly likely to be relevant given the number of candidate squadrons whose silver went into storage thereafter.

[Old-Duffer]

Easy Street,

I hope others reading this Thread will forgive me for ‘drifting’ the Thread to respond to the points you make against me.

First, low squadron numbering is a policy and it has been so in the RAF for many years, although I am not privy to the AFB Standing Committee minutes which formulated it. However, it was for this policy, that I wrote to Air Clues to suggest that OCUs should be renumbered with numbers of sqns which might never be resurrected. Although ridiculed by some, I gained the support of Air Marshal Sir John Curtiss and it happened, with the sqns being give an “R” suffix. I now know that 207 Sqn (without the “R”) is to be the F35 training squadron, rather than being numbered (although possibly still called) an OCU.

Turning to squadron silver and other memorabilia: there was a laid down process for sending to the repository, the remaining silver etc and the associated and audited property book (standards not included). When Quedgely (No: 7 MU) closed the repository moved to Stafford and later to a defence facility at Donnington near Telford. At 7 MU there were rigorous arrangements, similar to the methods of managing Valuable & Attractive (V&A) items. As time passed and deeper and deeper cuts were made, so the care of ‘non public’ items became more and more lax and the audit of what was there and who was responsible became less clear. Against this perceived inadequacy a number of fairly senior people became concerned at the opportunity for misappropriation and have raised these concerns but apparently to no avail.

Before you disparage my point, I invite you to submit an FOI question. I suggest you ask what the current arrangements are for the safeguarding of valuable non-public property held at Donnington, when was an audit last conducted formally and what level of error/loss was identified against the appropriate property books. Should the answer you receive (and posted here of course) reveal that I am the bulls&*^^er you suppose, I shall buy you (and a guest) a slap up dinner at the RAF Club.

I am sure ppruners will be only too pleased to hold my feet to the fire should I attempt to renege.

O-D

[Fareastdriver]

which used to be held in the 'Central repository' at 7 MU south of Gloucester

The Central Depository' was RAF Mildenhall in the late 1940's. That was where the silver for all the squadrons that had been disbanded after the II World War had been deposited.

One day a clutch of 3 tonners arrived with RAF markings. The drivers had a wad of paperwork authorising them to remove a large quantity of silverware. This was done and a few days later some ex war surplus sale 3 tonners were found abandoned in the countryside,---minus the silverware.

[Wensleydale]

I had heard (general gossip) that some old squadron/station silver that was not of historical significance and unlikely to see the light of day again had been melted down for use in making "newer" silver items for decorative use by the RAF.

[pr00ne]

Old-Duffer,

If low squadron numbering is indeed a policy, as you claim, how do you explain the existence of 617, 230, 207, 206, 201, 115, 101 and 99 Squadrons, when lower number plates such as 15, 20, 21, 22, 26, 30 and 42 are all long gone, not to mention more famous lower numbers such as 43, 56, 74 etc who appear to have gone for ever?

[Wensleydale]

The policy is supposed to be resurrection based upon seniority - however, there are always inputs by very senior officers and retired lobbyists who put the case for higher numbered squadrons. No 56(R) Sqn is still in existence by the way as the number plate for the ISTAR Tactics and Trials Squadron in the Air Warfare Centre at Waddington.

[Asturias56]

Does it all matter? (well the numbering - obviously running off withe silver is another issue)

I doubt that it's a critical item for the guys & girls actually flying in those squadrons............ the people who get excited are people who served years ago it seems to me

[Finningley Boy]

It was announced at the Fairford International 'ho down' that 207 was to become the F-35 OCU, because their's was the only Mess Silver which could be recovered etc etc..... No seriously, it is due to the Squadron's Naval origins and the intention of course that the F-35 will be operated in close cooperation between the FAA and the RAF. Except for the ones we purchase as 'A's that is! How likely is that looking at present? I wonder?

FB

[Asturias56]

If President Trump would like the UK to order more F-35's I think right now there'll be an order already on it's way.....................

[friendlypelican 2]

As pointed out by Brian at post 8, I am an occasional poster but long-term 'lurker'. Yes, I am honoured to be the previous OC 207 and I have already (privately) congratulated Wg Cdr Scott Williams on his new appointment. When it was announced last year that 207 was to be the F35 OCU, I was both delighted and it has to be said, a little surprised. However, knowing of both the Royal Naval origins of the Sqn and that 207 has a long and distinguished service at Marham with both the Valiant and Washington, it all made some sort of sense.
Perhaps I can add a bit of clarity/knowledge to the 'silver' discussion, as I have a clear memory of itemising and carefully packing the silver etc. in accordance with the then regulations (DCI?) and sending it to 7MU at Quedgley. When 207(R) formed at Linton, they asked for all this to be restored to them. What arrived was a paltry few items (the CO's board was the most prominent!) and I confirmed that there had been considerably more originally. I was still in uniform at the time and in conjunction with the chaps at Linton I got involved with trying to find it. By this time, it had all been moved to Stafford (when Quedgley closed) and I had some prolonged discussions with a very helpful civil servant who searched all the paperwork he could find. Sadly to little avail. I remember lots of documentary and photographic stuff that resided in my office which now seems to have been lost and believe it is there to be found rather than having been 'stolen'. To me, the most important is a small piece of original artwork done in 1922 by a previous Boss, Sqn Ldr A Tedder. It is of note that he subsequently achieved more than any Sqn Cdr from any other Sqn that may also be at Marham.

[Tankertrashnav]

Easy Street - what a load of pompous pontificating. The RAF's arrangements for the safe keeping of squadron silver, paintings are like a colander with extremely large holes. Time for you to respond to Old Duffer's suggestion at post #13 I think.

[Training Risky]

RAF News shows the second F35 Sqn to be : 207, a unit disbanded in circa 1984.

Given the RAF's 'low number' policy (except 617) for squadrons and the plethora of other 'claims' which must be out there, does anybody know the reason for the 207 nameplate to be reactivated?

Old Duffer

Maybe this Sqn number has been brought back to match the forecast strength of the RAF by 2025?

I'm being unfair...I'm sure the target headcount is at least 10x that = 2070.

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav wrote: The RAF's arrangements for the safe keeping of squadron silver, paintings are like a colander with extremely large holes.

How right you are!

When I was serving at pre-pongo Wattisham on Suphpholk's phinest phighter squadron, one of our ploys to take control of the Officers' Mess Committee was to volunteer, or in my case be volunteered, for various posts in order to achieve a majority. So I found myself as the Sqn Silver representative. Trying to resolve our swag against the property book was an absolute nightmare - we had things which weren't recorded and other items had simply disappeared. Probably through incompetence rather than theft though! So I did my best and unvolunteered sharpish. Good luck to whoever looks after 56(F)'s silver these days!

[JW411]

I can well remember being ordered to try to find certain items of one of my squadron's silver. I got absolutely nowhere. The most helpful suggestion that I got was to get myself invited to the next Group or Command dining-in night and I might be quite amazed by what appeared on the table.

[Wrathmonk]

Earlier comment on the 'disbanded squadron silver saga' can also be found in this thread here (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/562927-squadron-silver-3.html)

[Easy Street]

Easy Street - what a load of pompous pontificating. The RAF's arrangements for the safe keeping of squadron silver, paintings are like a colander with extremely large holes. Time for you to respond to Old Duffer's suggestion at post #13 I think.

I don’t challenge the reports of historic poor standards. My beef was with OD’s suggestion that the RAF would account for the completeness of silver collections when choosing squadron numbers so as to avoid embarrassment. The fact that it has *twice* resurrected 207 with silver missing is handy proof that the suggestion is total BS, just as I suspected.

[Asturias56]

He was being FUNNY.......................................

[JENKINS]

Fortunately the Wynford broadcast survives from WW2.

[Old-Duffer]

Easy Street,

Let's leave our little spat behind. Sadly, the squadrons with which I have been associated (103 & 110) have gone the way of all flesh and although I served alongside 230, I cannot claim reasonably to have been a member. My one attempt at resurrecting a sqn number plate (194) the first RAF helicopter sqn fell on deaf ears - hence 28 Sqn when the Hong Kong detachment of Whirlwinds was raised to a sqn. I am sure those who serve with 207 will do so proudly and hopefully they will embrace those who no longer serve but might be in the sqn association and will want/value highly, the chance to renew their friendships.

O-D

[Davef68]

207 was always an interesting nd slightly left field choice for the second Tucano squadron, but makes more sense for the Lightning F-35 with it's shared RAF and RN heritage.

One does wonder what the next two scheduled Lightning uints after 809 will be.....

[Harley Quinn]

One does wonder what the next two scheduled Lightning uints after 809 will be.....


That may be decided by whether As, Bs or Cs are purchased

[Archimedes]

O-D, if you'ff forgive me, the prevalence of low-numbered squadrons (and some 200-series numberplates) is a consequence of policy, not direct policy.

The over-riding consideration is seniority, with role assocation as another key factor (thus were, say, a Poseidon OCU to be formed, although the 19 Squadron numberplate is senior, it would be less likely to be chosen than that of 42 Squadron - association via Nimrod and being an OCU for MPA - or 22 Squadron - a pretty senior numberplate, operated Vildebeests, Beauforts and Beaufighters in the ASuW role in WW2).

207 was one of the squadrons which Trenchard selected to be the backbone of the RAF in the much-reduced circumstances of the immediate post- First World War era, and despite its disappearance from the lists after the retirement of the Devons, its accumulated seniority was still sufficient for it to be in the running for revival.

Trenchard required his staff to produce a list of 32 squadrons which had distinguished themselves; the squadrons were to include RNAS units and to represent all roles and all theatres of war. The resultant list had three alterations made to it by Trenchard - 8, 186 and 201 were replaced from that list by 203, 208 and 210. When two more squadrons were required, 8 and 151 were proposed; Trenchard concurred with 8 but decreed that 45 should be the next one. A similar process occurred at the commencement of further RAF expansion, thus the order in which squadrons formed was not on a numerical basis, and seniority and low numbering do not automatically fit together.

Clearly, some of what should be the most senior numberplates around disappeared from the lists over time - for example 267 Squadron was one of Trenchard's originals, but after the retirement of the Argosy and the subsequent reduction of the transport force during the 1970s, no opportunity to reform it has arisen - role association playing a key part in the disappearance. 205, 210 and 238 have also suffered similarly from that 1919 list signed off by Trenchard.

Forgive the diversion into slightly arcane history.

[Cyberhacker]

Trenchard required his staff to produce a list of 32 squadrons ... The resultant list had three alterations made to it by Trenchard

{snip}

Forgive the diversion into slightly arcane history.

Interesting... out of idle curiosity, is the full list available anywhere (Google has not been my friend)

[Archimedes]

There’s a list of the 30 most senior squadrons somewhere from an FOI request. The last full list seems to be from the late 70s and is in the National Archives at Kew, but there may well be something more up to date there. I’ll see if I can find the FOI link,

[Asturias56]

Well if it dates back to the 70's it can be redone anytime - no previous administration can bind it's successors............... so if the Minister's Dad served in 54325 Squadron he can resurrect that anytime..............

[Archimedes]

Well if it dates back to the 70's it can be redone anytime - no previous administration can bind it's successors............... so if the Minister's Dad served in 54325 Squadron he can resurrect that anytime..............

Er... The list is based upon accumulated service. Unless someone manages to change Time itself....

The rules could be revisited and changed ( but no CAS has seen fit to oversee much fiddling with them (there has been minor tinkering) since Trenchard introduced the idea), but claiming that (say) 74 Squadron has managed to add 45 years to its accumulated service through the application of quantum physics and is therefore 10th on the overall list could be a smidge trickier.

[Dockers]

Er... The list is based upon accumulated service. Unless someone manages to change Time itself....

The rules could be revisited and changed ( but no CAS has seen fit to oversee much fiddling with them (there has been minor tinkering) since Trenchard introduced the idea), but claiming that (say) 74 Squadron has managed to add 45 years to its accumulated service through the application of quantum physics and is therefore 10th on the overall list could be a smidge trickier.


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/408544/response/1010329/attach/3/20170721%20FOI201706102.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Is this the list?

[Herod]

"Dirty Thirty" is at number 6. That'll do.

[Davef68]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/408544/response/1010329/attach/3/20170721%20FOI201706102.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Is this the list?


Of course 25 is now 'active' again and 31 dormant but scheduled to go to Protector

[Archimedes]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/408544/response/1010329/attach/3/20170721%20FOI201706102.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Is this the list?

That's the badger.

[Tea White Zero]

Pr00ne - just for info, 30 (dirty thirty as Herod refers) is not 'long gone' as you suggest. It is in a 'period off transition' between operating the C130J and the A400M. It is currently at minimum manning but still operating alongside its sister squadron, LXX operating the the Airbus A400M Atlas C1 at Brize. The stand-up to full numbers again is dependant on the build-up of frontline Atlas crews.

Thanks all and Ventre a Terre.

[Herod]

Ventre a Terre.

Yes indeed, and greetings to "Love and Kisses"

[Tea White Zero]

:ok:now if only there was a big grassy bund at Brize.......... some daffodils would look lovely!!

[pr00ne]

Tea White Zero,

Thanks for that info, makes sense as 22 aircraft did seem a tad large to be operated by one Squadron.

[tubby linton]

Having been looking at Hurricane armed merchantmen I saw that the aircraft used the same squadron code as 207.

[pr00ne]

tubby linton,

They were operated by the Liverpool based Merchant Ship Fighter Unit.

When did 207 squadron aircraft last carry codes?

[tubby linton]

The MSFU (Merchant Ship Flying Unit) were eventually allocated the code letters 'NJ', which were displayed in the same form as 'normal' fighter squadrons, for example 'NJ-L'. This code is clearly seen on the fuselage of a Hurricane, in a photo, being loaded aboard, and then on the catapult, of a CAM ship.
These code letters were also used by 207 Sqn, RAF, but as this was a bomber squadron, with Manchesters, followed by Hampdens, and then Lancasters during this period, there would be no confusion with identities.

[Jobza Guddun]

**Nerd mode on**, 207 eventually became well-known and used the codes EM. Manchester and Lancaster pictures below. NJ perhaps the pre-war code tubby?


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/296x170/download_9c5c80f9546dcf946342a1c7bab2efdaf02668d5.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/7c23db7cc0cf5f1706f7fbfddb02a986_5e2fb88a1e100edc5e4322a7da7 600d18ba0cf61.jpg

[ExAscoteer]

NJ perhaps the pre-war code tubby?


207 Sqn used the code NJ from Apr - Sep 1939. They used the code EM from Nov 1939 - Mar 1950.

[tubby linton]

Thank you for the further information. Just proves not to believe everything you read on the internet.

[Nadia1]

Dear Old Duffer

I am trying to contact you regarding another older post - how might we best make contact? I have tried to send you and email message, but without success
Many thanks
Nadia