AVID vs ASIC

[lucille]

This query is with respect to a Private Pilot who will never go into capital city port of entry airport.

I've read the CASA website detailing the differences and its not totally clear to a dummy like me. Mention is made of "secure areas" at security controlled airports. But no mention how such areas are defined. ( https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/individual-licensing/asics-and-avids ) (https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/individual-licensing/asics-and-avids)

So on to the question of practical use, is any private pilot successfully using an AVID just for infrequently going through places like Roma, Thargomindah, etc. i.e security controlled airports with domestic RPT service.

What about regional port of entry airports?

[Cloudee]

If you’re going to any security controlled airports you legally need an ASIC. The AVID is useless. You might get away without one for years but sooner or later some very important airport person will ping you. It doesn’t matter if you have a PPL, RPL or RAAus.

[kaz3g]

See Reg 3.03 particularly

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017C00351/Html/Text

[triadic]

The issue here is what the Dept of whatever have done to outline what is a security area at a regional aerodrome. There is no rule that says a GA pilot cannot land at an aerodrome that has a security requirement. There should be a clear option for a GA pilot that does not have an ASIC to go about his business, obtain fuel or whatever services that he wants that is available - leave the airport and return to his aircraft and fly away. The Dept in charge of this has NOT placed any such requirements in place for the aerodrome operator to follow, nor given any advice/instructions to the industyr or the GA pilots on how to walk thru this minefield. When they do, we will all be better off and not have to deal with security requirements that have nothing to do with the average GA pilot operating his aircraft.
Why it is more difficult to obtain an ASIC than a passport for significantly more money and only for two years and not ten is still a mystery!
Further more there does not appear to be a definition of GA (General Aviation) or non RPT operations within the regs quoted above....... Are we (GA) being discriminated against?

[lucille]

If you’re going to any security controlled airports you legally need an ASIC. The AVID is useless. You might get away without one for years but sooner or later some very important airport person will ping you. It doesn’t matter if you have a PPL, RPL or RAAus.

Are you stating this from personal experience or your understanding of the rules. ?

If you say the AVID is useless then why did they implement it?

[lucille]

See Reg 3.03 particularly

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017C00351/Html/Text


Thanks for that link. I’m going to read through it properly.

Interestingly,, the legislation makes no mention of AVIDs. Maybe they’re just ahead of their time?��


Triadic .... To answer your question, I’d like to think that GA is not deliberately being discriminated against, merely forgotten. It’s too easy to be paranoid and read malignant intentions into everything.

I’m getting the feeling that the AVID concept was created with common sense and good intentions, it’s just that the rest of their apparatus has not caught up.

[Cloudee]

Are you stating this from personal experience or your understanding of the rules. ?

If you say the AVID is useless then why did they implement it?

There is a requirement for every new licence holder to have a security check. The AVID fulfills that function but is not accepted as a means of accessing security controlled airports.

[kaz3g]

Because you are required to have at least an AVID when you exercise the privileges of your pilot licence.

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-avid-questions-answered

[lucille]

There is a requirement for every new licence holder to have a security check. The AVID fulfills that function but is not accepted as a means of accessing security controlled airports.

Youre probably correct but that’s not what the CASA website implies. Which is the cause of my angst.

The website (and yes, I agree it’s not the legislation - but someone in a position of authority must have approved the wording on their website) says that an AVID will be ok if one does not intend to frequently use or plan to use Security Controlled airports. And that security controlled areas are always out of bounds.

Looks like no one really knows the answer at this stage. Only one way to find out, land for fuel or an overnight stop and see what happens.

The title of my next thread may may well be “Postcards from Prison”.

[Cloudee]

Your supposed to be able to visit airports without an asic by organising someone to meet you and be there to escort you. Trouble is who wants to do that and who pays for that? In practise, most of the time no one is there and no one cares.

[Sunfish]

Some clubs won’t let you hire an aircraft without you having an ASIC.

...Found that out the hard way.

[YPJT]

Lucille,
Looks like no one really knows the answer at this stage
I think your question has been answered. You cannot use an AVID for unescorted access at a security controlled airport where display of a valid ASIC is required.
One variation, not often exploited under Reg 3.03 is that the display of an ASIC only applies during the operational period at airports where screened services do not operate. Any screened services and it is a 24/7 requirement.
However you will always get the local airport staff demanding you wear an ASIC regardless, because their TSP says so. Which raises an interesting dilemma, does the TSP trump the legislation? How can a pilot be expected to know the contents of and airports TSP when it is not made available? But then the airport operator could simply deny you access which is their right to do also. And around and around we go.

[triadic]

Let's face it, the whole thing is a big mess, because GA was not considered when the rules were drafted. The rules that currently exist do not make any provision for GA operators or pilots that do not hold an ASIC. The problem is that the rules and instructions to aerodrome operators should make a provision for pilots to come and go etc. Fix that and the problem for GA pilots landing at such aerodromes will go away. Or an alternative would be to formalise the AVID in some way and have it recognised as a ID for GA areas of such aerodromes. To solve this problem we firstly have to have it demonstrated that it is a problem and then come up with some workable solution/s. Something that AOPA, RAAus and the other groups should get together on.

[AbsoluteFokker]

Easier still: Zero cost ASIC for all pilots, nation-wide. Cost: peanuts. Simplification: immense.

Renewals: Automatic.

Small questionnaire sent out a few months prior to each pilot to update their circumstances.

[Pinky the pilot]

AbsoluteFokker; Now you should know better than to suggest something sensible like that!!:=

Besides, how many Bureaucrats and make-work jobsworths would have to be made redundant if such a things as you suggest was actually implemented?:hmm:

[YPJT]

Easier still: Zero cost ASIC for all pilots, nation-wide. Cost: peanuts. Simplification: immense.

What about, refuellers, ramp staff, LAMEs, airport maintenance staff, airline ground staff etc etc. While we’re at it, free D@A checks for FIFO workers, free working with children clearances for anyone who needs it in the course of their work and why not free police clearances for job applicants?

[KittyKatKaper]

I really don't understand the need for a 'security' check for ASIC/AVID renewals.

The checking is basically a request from AusCheck (or whoever) for info from the other agencies (ASIO, AFP, police, et al) and I'm convinced that most of the replies will be negative
ie. 'no information held', 'no conviction(s)' or suchlike, which means that the 'security check' will be OK and the cost ($ & time) is minuscule.

Because the cost of that automated process is so low it then means that checking can be on a more frequent basis to keep the status of their 'customers' up-to-date.
Sure., some checks will come back with black-marks on them and a human will then need to make a decision, but that's what happens now.

AVID/ASIC are a photo_ID, but a 10 year validity period (similar to the passport system) would be workable because agencies have the right/ability to cancel an ID.

[thorn bird]

9/11 is blamed for the ASIC, but I wonder if money is the real reason.
There is a rumour, just a rumour that one or two ex DOTARS/CASA people make a mint out of ASIC's.
Why would a terrorist go to all the trouble to crash a plane into people when a bus or truck or car does just as well
and you don't need an ASIC for those........YET.

[bankrunner]

sooner or later some very important airport person will ping you

It'll be old mate who drove over from the other side of the airport to give you an earful, because he could see you weren't wearing a high vis vest.

[bankrunner]

AVID/ASIC are a photo_ID, but a 10 year validity period (similar to the passport system) would be workable because agencies have the right/ability to cancel an ID.

A Baseline security clearance (the bottom level clearance for federal public servants, contractors etc) is good for 15 years, and the vetting process is about as stringent as that for an ASIC.

[Bend alot]

9/11 is blamed for the ASIC, but I wonder if money is the real reason.
There is a rumour, just a rumour that one or two ex DOTARS/CASA people make a mint out of ASIC's.
Why would a terrorist go to all the trouble to crash a plane into people when a bus or truck or car does just as well
and you don't need an ASIC for those........YET.
Or not just visit Thailand.

The BigChilli Features (http://www.thebigchilli.com/feature-stories/khao-sans-fake-documents-industry)

[YPJT]

Or not just visit Thailand.

The BigChilli Features (http://www.thebigchilli.com/feature-stories/khao-sans-fake-documents-industry)
whilst the $45 knock offs from Thailand were a bit of a concern. They were pretty easy to detect upon close inspection. But that’s another story :)

[lucille]

Let's face it, the whole thing is a big mess, because GA was not considered when the rules were drafted. The rules that currently exist do not make any provision for GA operators or pilots that do not hold an ASIC. The problem is that the rules and instructions to aerodrome operators should make a provision for pilots to come and go etc. Fix that and the problem for GA pilots landing at such aerodromes will go away. Or an alternative would be to formalise the AVID in some way and have it recognised as a ID for GA areas of such aerodromes. To solve this problem we firstly have to have it demonstrated that it is a problem and then come up with some workable solution/s. Something that AOPA, RAAus and the other groups should get together on.

I suspect youre right and this has now been recognized hence the arrival of the AVID - it’s just that the officious security “heavies” on the ground haven’t been educated yet.

The CASA web pages on the AVID provides an implication of the privileges and limitations of the AVID which concurs with your suggestion. Fingers crossed for common sense and happier days ahead.

[YPJT]

This explains it all
https://youtu.be/OeQ8sX8E3EE

[roundsounds]

If you’re not planning to use security controlled airports frequently, just get the AVID. The security controlled airports have procedures to allow non-ASIC holders to operate at them for short periods. This may be a temporary ASIC type document or them providing you with an escort. For the exercise contact a couple of security controlled airports and ask them what procedures they have.

[YPJT]

The security controlled airports have procedures to allow non-ASIC holders to operate at them for short periods.
there are no set procedures. Some may allow a bit of flexibility. Others will be strictly No ASIC - No Access.

Dont blame the airports. Those who like to accuse airport staff of being “officious” for maintaining dislplay requirements don’t face the consequences of a non compliance.

[josephfeatherweight]

YPJT - that video was hilarious - thanks for posting!

[phlegm]

Hey guys, quick question about this. Where can I find out which airports require an ASIC for access? I'm tempted to apply for an AVID since it's cheaper and lasts longer, as I primarily fly RAAus, but need the card to satisfy CASA's paperwork requirements when converting to GA (working towards my CPL).

[Sunfish]

ERSA tells you on the second paragraph of the airport entry: "This is a security controlled airport". meaning, you need an ASIC. Its a good idea to have a flouro safety vest in the back of the aircraft. When you wear one of those nobody will bother to check for your ASIC.

[phlegm]

Good to know, thanks.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

This may be a temporary ASIC type document
This doesn't exist. The only alternative to an ASIC is a VIC (Visitor's ID Card) and requires the holder to be under escort by an ASIC holder anyway. RPT operators can issue a TAC (Temporary Aircrew Card) to aircrew under certain circumstances, but again, the holder must be escorted by an ASIC holder.
Only CASA issues AVIDs.

[lucille]

OK. Here’s my update.
When I first went down the AVID route, I studiously followed the guidelines on the CASA website which at the time pretty much stated that you don’t red an ASIC if you do not intend passing through security controlled zones within those airports.

Furthermore, I made email queries with someone at CASA to seek clarification and the general thrust was that the AVID was good if you didn’t intend to use security controlled airports frequently... I.e. not more than once a month.

Fast forward 12 months. They changed their website. So I had to apply for an ASIC in a hurry as I has a trip to YROM.

Thank you Covid!! I got my ASIC in under a week.

And yes, it was inspected with great care on arrival and two also two days later on departure at YROM.

The question uppermost in my mind is how do I apply for a refund for the useless AVID which was sold to me under false pretences?

In short, forget the AVID, it’s a useless piece of plastic, go get the ASIC.

[Lead Balloon]

Fixed it for you:In short, forget the AVID: It’s a useless piece of plastic. Go get the ASIC.

An ASIC is a useful piece of plastic. It’s useful for ... for ... being a nice little earner for those who process the applications and for providing a false sense of security for credulous punters.

[thorn bird]

You forget an added benefit Lead, at some airports you get a discount at the coffee shop.
That almost makes up for the huge markup on anything purchased at an airport terminal
to cover the cost of the massive rents charged by the Airport owners.

[Lead Balloon]

Good point, TB. And I should have added: Scraping frost off windscreens.