Red Arrows - worth the effort now?

[777fly]

I have been a huge fan of military formation aerobatics since the 1950’s, from Treble One Hunters through Gnats to the current excellent Red Arrows Hawks. The sight, sound and demonstrated skill never failed to impress and were an excellent advertisement for the capabilities and excellence of our aircraft, pilots and technical support.
However, I recently witnessed a Reds display at a well known venue and was severely disappointed to see that the display appeared to be focussed on a point a mile or two away from the venue. The participating aircraft were reduced to distant dots and at times could only be seen by reference to the smoke trails. The display seemed disjointed with many formation manoeuvres actually out of sight of the main audience. I have no doubt at all that the Shoreham accident has impinged badly on what is now permissible in a display of fast jet aircraft, so I have two questions: What are the new parameters for a Reds display? Is it worth all the time, expense and effort if the display is so remote from the audience that all impact is lost?

[Hydromet]

Was it possible that they found a yodelling contest?

OK, I'll go quietly.

[reds & greens]

Q. Red Arrows - worth the effort now?
A. Personally, NO

[newt]

How many frontline aircraft types have we lost but the Arrows survive? Surely with the size of the RAF now, they can no longer be justified on cost grounds alone!

Retired to my bunker with a glass of water!!

[thelizardking]

Yes! Absolutely. The Red Arrows do more for the good will of the public and inspiring young people to join than anything else combined.

[GeeRam]

How many frontline aircraft types have we lost but the Arrows survive? Surely with the size of the RAF now, they can no longer be justified on cost grounds alone!

Retired to my bunker with a glass of water!!

I have to say that I sadly agree with this now.

There aren't even any RAF base At Home or Battle of Britain Days any more, so I really struggle to see the point as a recruiting tool, especially when they are flying an aircraft that has almost vanished from RAF inventory as well.

[Asturias56]

The Red Arrows are only in existence to remind the British Public that the RAF still exists - if they go there will be next to no coverage and the"man in the Street" will forget all about them

It's not a cost/relevance issue - the moment they started using trainers (Gnats!) for display they became entertainment not a reflection of actual combat readiness

Look at the Royal Navy - they have effectively disappeared from public view........... except when the current Sec State needs a PR puff

[falcon900]

I like watching the Reds as much as anyone, and think they do a great job, so no element of criticism in what follows, but in the context of the current RAF, I too agree that the Reds are no longer appropriate. My own rationale isnt concerned with the cost of the Reds, but rather with the fact that they help perpetuate a myth in the minds of the general public that we still have an enormous and al-capable air force, and all is shiny and bright. Again without criticism of those currently serving, this impression seems to me rather detached from reality, and not one we should be investing to promote.

[FantomZorbin]

Close the recruiting offices and invest in an exhibition van to follow the Reds - far more effective according to a recruiter.

[Maxibon]

Perhaps the Reds' display needs to incorporate a proportional amount of time where they do f**k all in order to represent the impending holding times that any of the enticed future pilots might have to encounter in the future?!

[Momoe]

Battle of Britain days are a relic from the past and rightly so, we tend to lean on our laurels a little too often imo. We should be grateful that the BBMF exist as a reminder of those days. I'm with the OP in that displays are not as entertaining to the general public as they were, where I can still appreciate the precision and skill in a display, many can't and want to see it up close and personal. Remembering displays from days past, North Weald springs to mind and the glorious cacophony of hundreds of car alarms objecting to 4 olympus at full chat as a Vulcan displayed (beautifully), a german registered visitor not reading his Notams and arriving in the middle of the BBMF display (the irony), Mark Hanna flying under a spit in a P-40 with his prop tips about 2 feet off the runway and various WWII fighters in formation with a (Northwest?) B747.
As regards the use of training aircraft by the Reds, most folk just see it as an RAF jet.
As regards Shoreham, an avoidable tragedy yes, but in the present safety above all else climate, the outcome wasn't a surprise, also remember that Ramstein was also a game changer in its day, modern jets not classics.

[Nige321]

I just watched a C5 fly-on-the-wall documentary about the Household Cavalry.
Huge amount of money spent on 325 personnel, looking after 300 odd horses, riding schools, a warhouse full of ceremonial kit, full-time-vets, four full-time farriers etc...
Oh, and a band.

All for ceremonial duty, mainly around central London.

Bin them too...??

[typerated]

I just watched a C5 fly-on-the-wall documentary about the Household Cavalry.
Huge amount of money spent on 325 personnel, looking after 300 odd horses, riding schools, a warhouse full of ceremonial kit, full-time-vets, four full-time farriers etc...
Oh, and a band.

All for ceremonial duty, mainly around central London.

Bin them too...??

Yes, it is a disgrace when people die on ops for lack of good kit and we fund this

[beardy]

I am more concerned that the pool of potential recruits to RAFAT is now so small that it may best be described as a puddle.

[NutLoose]

Personally No, they are dinosaurs left over from a past culture, and their displays no matter what they call their new formations are the same dull repetitive stuff just regurgitate year in year out.
Even their "World sales tours on behalf of British industry is now past its day, the world has moved on from the Hawk, it is old and no longer a world leader.

It is a sad indictment that when you go the the RAF's only official airshow they can only managed to rustle up flying wise, the Reds, a few Tutors, a lone Chinook, a lone Typhoon and a Tucano...

Participating aircraft:
(F)=Flying Display, (S)=Static Display

Royal Air Force
• Red Arrows (F)
• BBMF Lancaster, Spitfire & Hurricane (F)
• RAF Chinook (F)
• RAF Typhoon FGR4 (F)
• RAF Falcons (F)
• Tucano T1 (F)
• Tucano T1 (S)
• Tutor T1 (F)
• Tutor T1 (S)
• Prefect T1 (S)
• Viking T1 (S)
• BAE System Tempest (Mock Up) (S)
• BAE Systems Hawk T1 - Defence School (S)
• BAE Harrier GR9 - Defence School (S)
• Hawker Siddeley Harrier GR3 - Defence School (S)
• Hawker Siddeley Harrier GR3 - RAF Museum (S)
• Panavia Tornado F3 - Defence School (S)
• Panavia Tornado GR4 - Defence School (S)
• SEPECAT Jaguar GR3 - Defence School (S)
• Juno HT1 (S)
• Westland Puma HC2 (S)
• Westland Wessex HC2 (S)
• Percival Provost T1 - RAF Museum (S)
• Percival Jet Provost T1 - RAF Museum (S)
• de Havilland Devon C1 - RAF Museum (S)
• Gloster Gladiator I - RAF Museum (S)
• Percival Pembroke C1 - RAF Museum (S)
• Supermarine Spitfire XIX - RAF Museum (S)


A Military Airshow was or is there to show the RAF's capabilities to the people paying for them and as a recruiting aid, while raising monies for worthwhile charities, so you do have to ask where was the following, indeed they managed to provide a Juno to fly red 10 back to Shawbury but not one to show it off to the public, though it was seen arriving and departing.

Attack

General Atomics MQ-9A Reaper
General Atomics MQ-9B Protector RG.1


Fighter

Typhoon FGR.4
Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning

Trainer helicopter

Airbus Helicopters Jupiter HT.1
Airbus Helicopters Juno HT.1

Utility helicopter

Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma HC.2
Leonardo AW109SP GrandNew
Bell Griffin HAR.2


Reconnaissance

Beechcraft Shadow R.1
Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1
Boeing RC-135W Rivet Joint

Raytheon Sentinel R.1

Trainer


Beechcraft Super King Air
Grob Viking T.1
Typhoon T.3
Grob Prefect T.1



Transport

Airbus Voyager KC.2/KC.3
Airbus A400M Atlas C.1
Boeing C-17 Globemaster III
BAe 146 CC.2/C.3
Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules C.4/C.5

[treadigraph]

Sobering to realise that 40 years ago it was their last season on Gnats...

[Treble one]

I am more concerned that the pool of potential recruits to RAFAT is now so small that it may best be described as a puddle.

I believe I heard in the commentary from Red 10 at IWM Duxford, that one of the current team (CL-S) now holds the record of having flown in the most number of positions in the team (6 I believe). Thus illustrating your point.

Most Reds used to do a second tour only when promoted to Red 1-now there are several returners on the team (and not all emergencies either).

[Roland Pulfrew]

Yes, it is a disgrace when people die on ops for lack of good kit and we fund this

Of course we could just forget that the Household Cavalry also have a front line combat role! Who is dying on ops for lack of good kit; now, not 10 years ago?

Even their "World sales tours on behalf of British industry is now past its day, the world has moved on from the Hawk, it is old and no longer a world leader.

Thereby completely missing the point that it is not about selling Hawks, but British Industry generally. That is why the Reds support trade fairs where British industry is involved, around the world. How much direct investment resulted from the Reds tour of the Far East a few years ago?

As for:

if they go there will be next to no coverage and the"man in the Street" will forget all about them Really? The man in the street is up in arms that the RAF is closing the Reds base and selling it off, let alone shutting them down altogether.

[Asturias56]

"The man in the street is up in arms that the RAF is closing the Reds base and selling it off"

post us a link to this concern - it's mainly ex RAF types and spotters

BUT - I'm sure the Daily Mail, Express and Torygraph plus at least one political party would see it as a symbol of British Decline - something the RAF play on I suspect

[The Oberon]

"The man in the street is up in arms that the RAF is closing the Reds base and selling it off"

post us a link to this concern - it's mainly ex RAF types and spotters

BUT - I'm sure the Daily Mail, Express and Torygraph plus at least one political party would
see it as a symbol of British Decline - something the RAF play on I suspect

I live in Scampton village, it can get a bit noisy at times but they were there before I moved in. I can't speak nationally but I do know that in the Lincoln area, to a man, there is a lot of pride in having RAFAT at Scampton and also a lot of bad feeling about them moving out. The same applies to the 617 Dambuster history attachment.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The current Hawks are 40 years old now.
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?

[falcon900]

The household cavalry argument is a good one, but as my mother would say, two wrongs don’t make a right....,
I say again, I am a Reds fan, and would happily support them as a crowd funding exercise, but as part of the service, they are part of a smokescreen trying to prevent us from seeing things how they really are.
We are way beyond the scale of Air Force which can afford its own display team. The Reds perpetuate a myth.

[Bob Viking]

Falcon900

Canada, France, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey, Australia, Jordan, Spain and probably others. All Air Forces of comparable or smaller size than the RAF which have their own display teams.

There was probably a better way to illustrate your point.

BV

[Tankertrashnav]

I think the Household Cavalry argument is a poor one. As has been pointed out both they and the foot guards have operational roles and rotate between public duties in London and Windsor, and ops wherever they are required. In their public duties role they are "on show" all year round and although I dont know the figures but I would guess that they are at least as cost effective in PR terms as the Red Arrows, if not more so.

Incidentally I was amused to see in the programme that Nige 321 mentioned that the incoming colonel of the Blue and Royals (I think it was) had spent most of his career in the non-ceremonial role, to the extent that he had to learn (or re-learn) how to ride a horse before taking over his post!

[reds & greens]

I live in Scampton village, it can get a bit noisy at times but they were there before I moved in. I can't speak nationally but I do know that in the Lincoln area, to a man, there is a lot of pride in having RAFAT at Scampton and also a lot of bad feeling about them moving out. The same applies to the 617 Dambuster history attachment.

Although I now reside some 15 miles away from Lincoln, I visit regularly; I completed two tours at Scampton alongside the Reds and finished at Waddington.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?

[SPIT]

Hi
I have been a Reds fan for many years but I am afraid there time is up now???

[hunterboy]

I think we would all agree that as the 5 or 6 th largest economy with a global reach, we should be able to afford these display teams and ceremonial troops. It does make one wonder where all the money is actually going; apart from foreign aid to countries with their own space programmes and to countries whose populations despise us.

[The Oberon]

Although I now reside some 15 miles away from Lincoln, I visit regularly; I completed two tours at Scampton alongside the Reds and finished at Waddington.
I can say there are many, many local people who have little, if any interest in the Reds remaining at Scampton, and numerous colleagues, still serving, who certainly don't want them based at Waddington.
Emotions and cost aside, I have difficulty in being able to justify a Sqn of pilots, engineers and support staff in the role, when the Service is short of skilled manpower elsewhere.
Perhaps I am out of date, and/or out of tune?

Certainly not my experience in terms of popularity.
As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems. I could be wrong here but I understand that the £6,000,000 it costs to run them comes largely from commercial sponsorship. I have been out for a long time so I don't know if the pilot and engineer shortage is that critical but in terms of support, surely that is done elsewhere where they are tagged on as a lodger unit?

[ExAscoteer]

As I understand it, the Reds require a flying programme flexibility that an operational base could not provide, even at Cranwell it caused problems.

The Reds moving to Cranwell in 1996 was an unmitigated, bloody disaster for 3FTS Operations (!), what with the sterilisations on aircraft movements pre and post a Reds T/O and landing.

For us on 55(R) (Dominies) it wasn't too much of an issue since we were usually airborne well before the Reds' morning and afternoon take off slots (and we were flying 2 1/2 to 3 hr sorties).

However, when I moved sideways onto 45(R) (Jetstreams) it really hit home how much we were being dick danced around.

Probably the biggest victims, though, were CFS Bulldogs and EFTS Fireflies.

[Runaway Gun]

Seeing military jets actually flying was my main incentive to become an airforce pilot. Where I lived it was extremely rare to see them. Teams like the Red Arrows are an amazing encouragement for the youth (if not the crusty old buggers who had their turn).

[tarantonight]

Yes. No question.

Everything else regarding cuts, be it RAF/FAA/AAC etc is a different subject. We as a country have been completely shafted by various governments over the years and that will continue forever.

TN.

[Meldrew]

I would think that the air cadets organisation was the most effective recruiter for the RAF. it certainly worked on my son.

[newt]

(if not the crusty old buggers who had their turn). I object Runaway Gun! Apparently I’m a Grumpy Old Git!! So get it right!

[Asturias56]

The Foot Guards and the Household Cavalry are also enormous draws for the tourist trade in London.........................

[BEagle]

Space Cadets, Meldrew? In my case, when I was a small boy, I used to watch the marsh warblers swooping in my mother's undercroft….and I remember thinking "Will I ever dare do the same?"....

'twas that - and of course living less than a mile from all the activity at RAF Merryfield had something to do with it!

[dead_pan]

I wonder whether the crunch will come in a few years if any more of the big summer airshows bite the dust, given we've already lost major shows like Waddington, Shoreham, and just recently Farnborough, particularly when it comes to any decision about RAFAT fleet replacement? Rumours are that some of the big seaside events are considering downscaling due to financial pressures.

Question is, will whoever who has to make the final decision be able to hold their nerve, given this wave of patriotic fervour we appear to be experiencing? Jez maybe, Boris definitely not...

[Avtur]

Saw the Red Arrows in Halifax, NS on Sunday at the start of their North American tour. Not the full display, presumably due to the location, but nice to see them nevertheless. Was bemused however by the "support" peeps trying to market RAF engineering (and some bird marketing Wales). Not sure of the purpose behind that. Anyway, I hope they manage to drum up some post Brexit business, and have a safe and successful tour. The cynic in me did wonder how much this tour is costing the UK tax payer, and whether they will get a good return for their "investment", particularly as funding for the front line continues to be limited.

[Bob Viking]

I believe the Red Arrows tour of N America will cost the tax payer approximately £350M per week. Weirdly, this is the exact amount we can save by Brexiting. The NHS will just have to join the queue.

BV

Warning: these numbers may be a complete fabrication.

[possel]

The current Hawks are 40 years old now.
That would be like the 1978 Hawk replacing an early Spitfire by way of comparison rather than a Gnat.
Are they getting new Hawks?
The basic design is 45 years old, but the actual aircraft they fly (mostly the same serial numbers since 1978) are not the same bits of structure that they were 40 years ago - I think the nose section is the only original bit (and possibly the smoke generators!), all the rest having been changed in various fatigue programmes.

[India Four Two]

Avtur,

Thanks for the heads-up - I wasn't aware they were coming across the pond. I've alerted my aviation-oriented friends.

[DON T]

I was quite surprised that Red 3 this season is a pilot with TUI flying B737 out of Cardiff. 😜

[Tashengurt]

Saw them last year at Sunderland and I havd to say that after a lacklustre airshow with many aircraft way out to sea the reds display was excellent.
Watching them come in head first, rolling around each other for the Tornado was an amazing sight.
I do though, suspect their future is entirely determined by the life of their Hawks.

[Nige321]

I was quite surprised that Red 3 this season is a pilot with TUI flying B737 out of Cardiff. 😜

Was a pilot for TUI, he retired from the RAF at the end of last season, joined TUI, did a couple of months then returned for this year as Red 3 broke his leg... He'll be back on the ALiccante run in November...

[lightbluefootprint]

Saw the Red Arrows in Halifax, NS on Sunday at the start of their North American tour. Not the full display, presumably due to the location, but nice to see them nevertheless. Was bemused however by the "support" peeps trying to market RAF engineering (and some bird marketing Wales). Not sure of the purpose behind that. Anyway, I hope they manage to drum up some post Brexit business, and have a safe and successful tour. The cynic in me did wonder how much this tour is costing the UK tax payer, and whether they will get a good return for their "investment", particularly as funding for the front line continues to be limited.
One of the Reds objectives is to promote British industry, so it's probably part of their annual budget from Whitehall as they do take occasional tours in an easterly direction too.

[Roland Pulfrew]

One of the Reds objectives is to promote British industry, so it's probably part of their annual budget from Whitehall as they do take occasional tours in an easterly direction too.
One major, one minor, one 'at home' is the rotation. Majors were/are: Far East 2016, USA/Canada 2019; Minor was Middle East & Pakistan 2017; At Home was RAF 100 2018. Next year should see a 'minor' tour if the pattern follows tradition.

[jumpseater]

Next year should see a 'minor' tour if the pattern follows tradition.

Greece next year then....

[Tashengurt]

Greece next year then....

Well I laughed!

[Lyneham Lad]

Greece next year then....

Well I laughed!

Indeed - although it took a few seconds... :)

[FantomZorbin]

Greece next year then....
That is awful!!! … and you owe me a keyboard :D:D

[Meester proach]

They are still great but I’d probably replace them with a typhoon 3 ship....so as a potential recruitment tool, you are actually looking at what you are aspire too.
Would that be cheaper or have I just spent even more ?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

...and here we go again with the "Reds to be scrapped" rumours. Isn't it a cyclical story, popping up every 5 years or so?

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/red-arrows-scrapped-save-10million-17347429?fbclid=IwAR1JQxRUCZKBm4PGuPxOsQ8SCX5545hd1y7sCZb5ZS B5eBwr9QT4Warcsn8

[Finningley Boy]

Yes, it is a disgrace when people die on ops for lack of good kit and we fund this

None of these things have bearing on lack of kit, the people responsible for making decent kit provision an uphill battle are the treasury. Soldiers, Airmen and Matlos have died in no end of conflicts since well outside of living memory. I think the only time when the finer aspects of military life were suspended was during World War 2, but then nothing at all could be spared. Unless you were assigned to something like the War Office or Air Ministry film crew.

FB

[BVRAAM]

For the miserable lot who think the Reds are a waste of time, I hope this picture changes your mind.

If they can inspire the next generation, they've served their purpose. This young lad had his childhood made.

Feet together, Red 9... ;)

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/55A4/production/_108242912_raf1crowncopyright.jpg

[GeeRam]

And in that article it also mentioned the RAF Regt might be for the chop.....and

..."The Paras and Marines could be combined into one unit"..... :ooh:
That's like asking the catholic and protestant churches to merge into one!

[Asturias56]

Just junk one of them - keep the RM for choice - they are the senior regiment

[beardy]

For the miserable lot who think the Reds are a waste of time, I hope this picture changes your mind.

If they can inspire the next generation, they've served their purpose. This young lad had his childhood made.

Feet together, Red 9... ;)

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/55A4/production/_108242912_raf1crowncopyright.jpg
Inspiring. But time is not the point being raised, money is.

[BVRAAM]

Inspiring. But time is not the point being raised, money is.


If something generates vastly more resources than it uses, wouldn't you say that's a sensible investment?

[pr00ne]

None of these things have bearing on lack of kit, the people responsible for making decent kit provision an uphill battle are the treasury. Soldiers, Airmen and Matlos have died in no end of conflicts since well outside of living memory. I think the only time when the finer aspects of military life were suspended was during World War 2, but then nothing at all could be spared. Unless you were assigned to something like the War Office or Air Ministry film crew.

FB

Finningley Boy,

Not letting you get away with that!

Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns were funded from Government Reserve plus a plethora of Urgent Operational Requirements that also did not come out of the MoD budget, so any kit issues around body armour, protected vehicles etc are down to the military not thinking they were required or needed or making them available where they were needed and they already existed.

[beardy]

If something generates vastly more resources than it uses, wouldn't you say that's a sensible investment?
I would possibly depending on their relative values, but it's not what you said.

[tucumseh]

[B]

Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns were funded from Government Reserve plus a plethora of Urgent Operational Requirements that also did not come out of the MoD budget,

As ever, matters are not that simple. The immediate funding was provided from outwith MoD, but it could be said the Treasury claw some back every year. It is around 19 years since there's been a real world equipment budget increase; and the next one falls short as well. Plus, there are the 'hidden' cuts, such as the creation of QinetiQ and closure of 3rd line workshops - the former was effectively one of the biggest ever cuts in the equipment budget.

To take one example, at the time Herrick kicked off, the Infantry's flagship programme was costed at over £4Bn and approval granted 2 years previously to proceed. The primary aim was to reduce casualties, in a 3-phase programme ending in 2015. In short order, the budget was chopped to around £700M, and the programme extended and diluted to such a degree it is now unrecognisable.

If you don't ask, you don't get. Far far worse, in the Treasury's eyes, is asking, getting, and then saying you don't want it after spending pots of money. For example, Snatch replacement, cancelled in around 2003 despite the Army having made an exemplary case in the mid-90s that it was FAU and had to be replaced. Same with Nimrod MR2 secure comms. All kit bought and on the shelf, and some genius says we don't want it, and the brand new kit scrapped. That was only about £100M at today's prices, but it all adds up to astronomical waste and missed opportunities. To compensate for the lost funding, we see regular rumours like the Red Arrows being chopped. Better that the Services do the job properly in the first place. (None of what I've said had anything remotely to do with procurers).

[Just This Once...]

Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns were funded from Government Reserve plus a plethora of Urgent Operational Requirements that also did not come out of the MoD budget

Just not true pr00ne. Not true at all.

10/10 for a remarkably assertive stance from a position of no authority, insight or understanding - but 1/10 for accuracy.

[heights good]

For the miserable lot who think the Reds are a waste of time, I hope this picture changes your mind.

If they can inspire the next generation, they've served their purpose. This young lad had his childhood made.

Feet together, Red 9... ;)

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/55A4/production/_108242912_raf1crowncopyright.jpg

This argument, whilst perhaps true, does not justify keeping the Reds. There are so few airshows and displays that compared to 20 yrs ago a LOT less kids see the Reds perform.

In addition, if you were to survey most serving members of the RAF I would imagine that 99.5% did not join the RAF because of the Reds. I for one joined because a Chinook landed outside my Air Cadet Sqn (before I even understood that the air cadets existed). The Reds although great to watch holds no allure for this guy, even as a kid.

I would suggest that most young boys seeing a FJ with 'bombs' and 'guns' or a Helicopter fast roping or offloading 30 full tolled up soldiers has as much, if not more draw for your average little boy. That is certainly the vibe I get from all little boys I have met.

Just my opinion and not meant to cause nasty arguments or name calling.

[langleybaston]

Just not true pr00ne. Not true at all.

10/10 for a remarkably assertive stance from a position of no authority, insight or understanding - but 1/10 for accuracy.
Which bit attracted the 1?

[pmills575]

Well, at the museum that I volunteer at, one of our best sellers is the Corgi "Syncho Pair". If that can be considered a reasonable measure of the "Reds effect" on impressionable youngsters, then they are having the desired effect.

[pr00ne]

Just this once, and langleybaston,

Go read Hansard, read defence white papers, read treasury expense reports, where it is all recorded as fact.

[Mil-26Man]

I just watched a C5 fly-on-the-wall documentary about the Household Cavalry.
Huge amount of money spent on 325 personnel, looking after 300 odd horses, riding schools, a warhouse full of ceremonial kit, full-time-vets, four full-time farriers etc...
Oh, and a band.

All for ceremonial duty, mainly around central London.

Bin them too...??

The British Army has more horses than tanks. Go figure...

[Asturias56]

But the horses bring in hundreds of millions of dollars ....................

You should be able to do the ceremonial/PR stuff as well as the fighting. After all most of the time most of the Army isn't actually in a foxhole somewhere

[heights good]

Well, at the museum that I volunteer at, one of our best sellers is the Corgi "Syncho Pair". If that can be considered a reasonable measure of the "Reds effect" on impressionable youngsters, then they are having the desired effect.

As a kid I absolutely loved books on nature and animals and had an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject. I was taken to the zoo several times a year, was always drawing animals and trying to adopt cats, dogs, bees, birds, rabbits.... Anything.

I joined the military and now have zero interest in animals 😀

correlation doesn't equal causation

[Just This Once...]

Just this once, and langleybaston,

Go read Hansard, read defence white papers, read treasury expense reports, where it is all recorded as fact.

As one who sat with the Treasury and bid for funding I have a better idea than most over how much of the financial burden of Herrick and Telic fell directly on the FLCs. Enjoy your reading and spouting of Hansard and alike, but it will not improve your 1/10 score. Even the single point I gave you was charitable as once we entered the land of 'use it or lose it' Treasury-logic the MoD was well-and-truly stuffed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Which bit attracted the 1?
Like Amazon nil point is not permitted. 😀

[BVRAAM]

This argument, whilst perhaps true, does not justify keeping the Reds. There are so few airshows and displays that compared to 20 yrs ago a LOT less kids see the Reds perform.

In addition, if you were to survey most serving members of the RAF I would imagine that 99.5% did not join the RAF because of the Reds. I for one joined because a Chinook landed outside my Air Cadet Sqn (before I even understood that the air cadets existed). The Reds although great to watch holds no allure for this guy, even as a kid.

I would suggest that most young boys seeing a FJ with 'bombs' and 'guns' or a Helicopter fast roping or offloading 30 full tolled up soldiers has as much, if not more draw for your average little boy. That is certainly the vibe I get from all little boys I have met.

Just my opinion and not meant to cause nasty arguments or name calling.

Yeah, good argument and I can relate. The Tornado always impressed me more as a kid than the Red Arrows ever did.

I think the Reds are still valuable for engagement and recruitment. Some people don't consider joining without prior engagement to inspire the interest.

[Phantom Driver]

Yeah, good argument and I can relate. The Tornado always impressed me more as a kid than the Red Arrows ever did.

I think the Reds are still valuable for engagement and recruitment. Some people don't consider joining without prior engagement to inspire the interest.

Indeed . 100 million quid can be found to stick some cones up on the motorway for no-deal planning ( and then take them down again) , but funding for the Reds is some kind of issue .
Back in the day , what inspired us were the 'Toom , the Lightning and yes , the Reds (Gnats in those days ) . Pre PC/ Health and Safety era . Wouldn't be allowed now ; all that nasty afterburner stuff is bad for the environment .....

[heights good]

But the horses bring in hundreds of millions of dollars ....................

You should be able to do the ceremonial/PR stuff as well as the fighting. After all most of the time most of the Army isn't actually in a foxhole somewhere

I would argue that the horses dont bring in much at all. I would be very surprised if there were more than a few dozen people who solely visit London to see the horses and soldiers. The overwhelming majority visit the UK or even London to see a plethora of attractions, the horses being 1 of literally hundreds of such attractions.

[Asturias56]

If you look a tthe PR for the UK when you are overseas you'd think there was little else other than the Brigade of Guards and the Household Regiment in the whole country - it's iconic stuff . Agreed not everyone comes to see them and once they have seen them they may not do it every time but it's key to the "brand"

[typerated]

For recruitment I think you would do much better (and far cheaper) by funding a Chinook (and crew) to constantly make school visits.
Imagine all the school kids lined up on the playing fields , Cab arrives and does a little demo - make it fun and show a few tac skills and a couple of bods abseiling out the back.
then land and out the back jumps the career guys signing everyone up!
Try and find a local lad in the aircrew so the kids can relate and imagine that could be me - he gives a bit of a speech to say so.
Perhaps the top science class can have a quick 5 minutes trip?
It would cost a fraction of the Reds and I'm sure would be more engaging for most.

Thoughts?

Google tells me there are 4000 secondary schools in the UK - so if there were 5 visits a day- that would be 1000 a year with 200 days on the job - kids would most likely see the aircraft during their education

[Asturias56]

Can you image the HSE reaction!!!!

[GeeRam]

Google tells me there are 4000 secondary schools in the UK - so if there were 5 visits a day- that would be 1000 a year with 200 days on the job - kids would most likely see the aircraft during their education

How many of those still have their own playing fields given the huge amount sold off to raise funds since the early 1980's......?

I bet you'll not find many inner city/urban areas that have retained their playing fields.

[BEagle]

Chivenor Hunters and Yeovilton Sea Vixens always got my attention (and sometimes a rebuke) during lessons at school. But no-one looked twice at any helicopter, apart from an ancient Dragonfly which once made a surprise appearance over the town.

Yes, of course the Reds are still worth the effort. As are the Army's horses and HMS Victory!

But how could anyone advise a keen youngster that if they waited 7 years to get to a frontline jet and another 3 on their first tour, they might be lucky enough to be accepted for RAFAT?