Tegel - take off and landing at the same time?

[Seamless]

Tuesday night I was awaiting my wife at TXL. While waiting an EasyJet Airbus was landing on runway 08L/26R at the same time as an Turkish Airlines aircraft was taking off from 08R/26L. Seemed strange to me. Is that a normal procedure?

[Dave Gittins]

That's why there are 2 runways .. one to land and one to take off .. it's why LGW is limited to 55 movements per hour and why they'd like another runway.

In the USA some airports have more than two. Denver is fun they have 4 parallel 34 and 35 left and right of each and 25 and 26 going the other way. I've been on finals on one runway (35R) at KDEN in a 74 with a united 777 landing parallel (34L) a mile to the side.

At the risk of being shot down I think they often us (for example) 35L & 35 R for landing and 34 L and 34 R for take offs.

[Seamless]

Thx, for answering. Well, what made it pretty worrying to me is the fact, that the distance between both runways is just about 150m, which isn´t much in my eyes.

[S.o.S.]

Hello Seamless and welcome to the Cabin of PPRuNe!

Your question is reasonable and others new to the experience would also like to know. Airports that have multiple runways have stringent process' for this. For example, the aircraft that is departing will, on take off, NEVER turn towards the runway where landings are taking place - even if that is the direction of their destination. This is so that, if the landing aircraft has to go around (not land) for some reason, their path will not cross with those departing. Some big airports have 4, 5 or 6 runways so these events are well known and planned for around the world.

Do stay here and ask more question although we have no cabin service, I'm afraid, you'll have to get your own tea or coffee. :eek:

[DaveReidUK]

For example, the aircraft that is departing will, on take off, NEVER turn towards the runway where landings are taking place - even if that is the direction of their destination. This is so that, if the landing aircraft has to go around (not land) for some reason, their path will not cross with those departing.

Not wishing to be picky, but I think that's very much an oversimplification.

An airport like Heathrow wouldn't be able to function if departures from the southern runway weren't able to turn to the north, and vice versa. The controllers do a pretty good job of keeping missed approaches clear of departing traffic, and will vector the latter off the SID, if necessary.

[Seamless]

Hello Seamless and welcome to the Cabin of PPRuNe!

Your question is reasonable and others new to the experience would also like to know. Airports that have multiple runways have stringent process' for this. For example, the aircraft that is departing will, on take off, NEVER turn towards the runway where landings are taking place - even if that is the direction of their destination. This is so that, if the landing aircraft has to go around (not land) for some reason, their path will not cross with those departing. Some big airports have 4, 5 or 6 runways so these events are well known and planned for around the world.

Do stay here and ask more question although we have no cabin service, I'm afraid, you'll have to get your own tea or coffee. :eek:

Thx for the warm welcome.

I do understand your explanation. It just didn't feel right considering the little distance between both runways. Taking in account, that it has happened that pilots mistakingly landed on the wrong runway or lost control on landing, I thougt it would be more shifted.

At least I think this should be considered. There are just to many "what ifs" at an airport like Tegel, where everything is very tight.

[flipperb]

In the USA some airports have more than two. Denver is fun they have 4 parallel 34 and 35 left and right of each and 25 and 26 going the other way. I've been on finals on one runway (35R) at KDEN in a 74 with a united 777 landing parallel (34L) a mile to the side.



ATL is great for this too. Five parallel runways, and it's very common to have paired landings where two aircraft are parallel on approach. They use the outer runways for arrivals and the inner (closer to the terminal) for departures.

Back to OP's original question, I've observed very tight single-runway separations at DCA... departing aircraft might clear the runway ~10-15 seconds before arriving aircraft touches down at the approach end. I'm sure the correct minimums are maintained but it's amazing to watch.

[Hotel Tango]

flipperb, for info ATL land simultaneously on 3 (three) runways. Been there and got the T-Shirt! ;)

[wiggy]

I do understand your explanation. It just didn't feel right considering the little distance between both runways. Taking in account, that it has happened that pilots mistakingly landed on the wrong runway or lost control on landing, I thougt it would be more shifted.


Depends on the circumstances but "aligning" on the wrong runway can happen regardless of runway spacing, and in terms of losing control on landing with parallel operations ATC generally ensure there is some longitudinal ( fore/aft) separation.. so what would you consider as "right"? 200 metres, 500 metres? A mile?

I don't know Tegel but I certainly operate into the the sorts of airports flipperb and Hotel Tango describe and parallel operations with closely spaced runways is not at all unusual.

[Seamless]

Well, there was actually no real longitudinal separation. At the moment of touching the ground the other aircraft caught up on the other runway an must have passed the landing airplane, while both got out of my sight.

Anyways; as it seems to be okay; I am fine with it. It was just very strange to look at; it didn´t feel right.

[S.o.S.]

Thanks DRUK I was keeping it simple! New joiners to our cabin will learn that Go Rounds are an everyday occurrence and always planned for. At multi-runway airports, the levels of pilot aids, both visual and electronic, all work to keep the planes at a happy distance from each other.

[Dave Gittins]

Min is about 120 M for parallel operations in Vis 1.
There have been some incidents where an airborne aircraft turned towards the landing runway. I recall one at Heathrow where {I think so don't flame me] a BA 757 turning left off 27 R was in close proximity to a go around off 27 L. It's in the AAIB reports.

[jimjim1]

Thx, for answering. Well, what made it pretty worrying to me is the fact, that the distance between both runways is just about 150m, which isn´t much in my eyes.

Maybe you need some better eyes?

My eyes using google earth estimate that the distance between the Heathrow runways is -

1497 yards edge to edge

1546 yards centre line to centre line

[Hotel Tango]

jimjim1, he was talking about Berlin TXL, not LHR. See the original post. The distance between the CLs at TXL is about 207 metres.

[DaveReidUK]

Maybe you need some better eyes?

Well somebody does. :O

My eyes using google earth estimate that the distance between the Heathrow runways is -

1497 yards edge to edge

1546 yards centre line to centre line

That's perfectly true, but the OP was talking about TXL (Berlin-Tegel). Its runways are around 205m apart, measured centreline-to-centreline (which is the convention).

[Hartington]

Try San Francisco! Two sets of parallel runways which cross at 90 degree about halfway along each (a right angled #).. The runways have just enough room between each pair to hold a 737. When the weather is good you get parallel landings coming up the Bay over the San Mateo bridge onto 27R/L and as the landing planes cross the intersection you can get two aircraft starting on 1R/L turning away from each other as they rotate. Problem is 1R/L aren't long enough for the heavily loaded aircraft so they have to be inserted onto 27R/L. When it gets a bit windy you'll find staggered landings onto 27R/L and as a plane lands on 27R you'll see one depart 27L (and vice versa).

There's a park called Coyote Point just down the 101 Freeway where you can watch the whole thing.

[Dannyboy39]

LGW try and do 55 movements an hour but in reality punctuality at the airport is terrible.

[DaveReidUK]

Try San Francisco!

The runways have just enough room between each pair to hold a 737.

Methinks you exaggerate, just a tad:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/962x621/ksfo_runway_separation_4ba9a2d5fd825ce10feeeb473cb222e3cc775 1cb.jpg

:O

[Hartington]

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/afs420-84-1.pdf says the separation is "" only 748.9 feet, " a 737-900 is only 138ft 2in. How much clearance is required fore and aft on one of the 90 degree taxiways rather than a high speed exit?

[Hotel Tango]

Looking at the two stop lines on the taxiway that's at 90 degress in the above picture, I'd say there's room enough for a Boeing 777-300 to hold between the two runways.

[Cymmon]

NAIA Manila has runways that cross each other..... Now that's scary....

[Ancient Mariner]

NAIA Manila has runways that cross each other..... Now that's scary....
NAIA is scary, period.
Many moons ago on vacation in the US we stayed at a hotel close to the airport. Can't remember the floor, but high up. Fascinating in the evening watching the airplanes turn 180 and line up in two rows, one each side of the hotel and level with our balcony. Sat there with a bottle of single malt and watched for hours. Early breakfast not fun.
Per

[WHBM]

Common at major US airports (eg LAX) is two pairs of close runways either side of the terminals, four in total. Normal that on each pair, as one touches down, generally on the outside, a takeoff starts on the other. Just as the OP described, and similar spacing. Over on the other side of the airport the same thing is going on, quite independently.

The old Chicago O'Hare configuration, until about 10 years ago, was fascinating. 6 runways, in a sort-of Star of David pattern, intersecting, terminals in the middle. They used to use them all at once, both for takeoffs and landings, all very impressively interleaved with one another.

[Denti]

In TXL it is down to the experience and assessment of the situation of the tower controller on duty as far as i know. In general a take off clearance is given once the landing aircraft is well below minimum, usually around 100 to 50ft. And yes, in the past they would give the take off clearance earlier as well, which did lead to the unpleasant situation of one aircraft getting airborne while another went around leading to a very low separation (well, loss of separation to be honest), after which they changed procedures a bit. However, since then, traffic has picked up quite a bit which of course puts pressure on all concerned. And the orange bunch apparently quite often bangs on the door of the tower to tell them off for delaying one of their aircraft.

[Seamless]

@Denti; thx a lot for the reply. The way you described the developement of the practice at TXL makes a lot of sense. I have seen similar situations at other airports before, but never noticed it as "this shouldn´t be like this". The distance between the runways was just bigger.