Freighter S/O

[grind king]

If one is to be so unlucky to end up an S//O on the freighter, what destinations will they fly to? How many days a month worked? Are upgrades to F/O any faster on a freighter?

Thanks

[Slasher1]

Ya know, I think I’ll go out and hit myself on the head with a hammer. I have the choice not to hit myself on the head at all and have gotten this advice from those who actually work in the head and hammer business. But they all have to be wrong because I have high hopes that somehow my head and hammer are different.

Now i have to make the choice between sledge, ball peen, wooden mallet, or standard. Can you all tell me which one might be better if one is going to hit oneself on the noggin ?

[AB335]

If you are the lucky draw winner You can enjoy lovely Anchorage all year around. Upgrade time from SO to JFO is same as everyone else, aka 5-7 years at current rate.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

And you can fly with the Chair of AOAE......yawn!

If you are the lucky draw winner You can enjoy lovely Anchorage all year around. Upgrade time from SO to JFO is same as everyone else, aka 5-7 years at current rate.

[oriental flyer]

Oh come on guys , the hotel is quite nice in ANC , the Brew House has good food and beer, the menu becomes a bit repetitive after the first 50 visits or so it there is always F Street . The weather is quite lovely in summer . Trying to get around in winter at minus 20C can be a little more challenging but the summers make up for it ,after all who doesn’t want 20 hours of daylight .

[Gravox]

SO destinations have improved somewhat over the last couple of years on the 747, however you will find yourself passengering into destinations to pick the jet up the next day so minimum rest. You will also find yourself passengering on the 747 between destinations as you're not required to operate certain sectors. I heard the new rostering practises are limiting SO to 6 passengering sectors a month. The New Conditions of service is an absolute joke and I highly recommend you look for employment else where. You have been warned so don't say you havent.

Anyway some of the destinations that SO now operate to or from include,
LHR, AMS, FRA, MXP, BOM, DEL, MEX/GDL, NYC, ORD. ANC ANC ANC
There are probably a few others......

With regards to Upgrades, most of the SO's are upgrading onto the Airbus fleet at the moment, with the unlucky few staying on the 747. There is no rime or reason as to who goes to which fleet, it is all directed from the powers to be. Upgrades at Present are pushing 4.5 years and increasing. All upgrades are done in seniority so NO chance to jump the que. You can join as a Direct Entry First Officer,if you have the required time but once again you don't jump the seniority lists. Commands at present are sitting around 13-14 years. Expect that to push out further in time to come.

Once again, LOOK ELSEWHERE.....

[AQIS Boigu]

How about PXing three sectors from ANC to GDL via LAX and MEX (total duty 18 hours!!!) to operate GDL-ANC the next day. All that for **** all credit

[Cpt. Underpants]

long wait to FO, JFO or whatever it is is really the last thing that should concern you.

The relationship between the whole company and flight crew is shockingly bad, where massive strategic missteps costing billions are habitually and unfairly heaped on the pilots, staff are abused and shortchanged while our Swire masters take home ever increasing bonuses.

The rostering “system” is unspeakably bad - seniority is practically worthless, inefficiencies are everywhere and consultation and coordination with the aircrew body is zero.

Resignations are rocketing, a 10% turnover is possible.

CoS 18 (conditions of service, 2018) is an affront to decency, paying substandard wages in the world’s most expensive city, so poor that married new joiners are leaving their spouses in their home countries because raising a family on CoS 18 is near impossible.

Labour laws are useless and protections are near zero.

Transfers from the 747 are so rare that once on the 747, resign yourself to a career on type. The shiny new 777 “X” and A350 will never be on your licence. Never.

Pollution in Hong Kong is life-threatening.

If you’re concerned about a five year wait for an upgrade, you’re standing too close to the picture. Step back and look again.

[MENELAUS]

is really the last thing that should concern you.

The relationship between the whole company and flight crew is shockingly bad, where massive strategic missteps costing billions are habitually and unfairly heaped on the pilots, staff are abused and shortchanged while our Swire masters take home ever increasing bonuses.

The rostering “system” is unspeakably bad - seniority is practically worthless, inefficiencies are everywhere and consultation and coordination with the aircrew body is zero.

Resignations are rocketing, a 10% turnover is possible.

CoS 18 (conditions of service, 2018) is an affront to decency, paying substandard wages in the world’s most expensive city, so poor that married new joiners are leaving their spouses in their home countries because raising a family on CoS 18 is near impossible.

Labour laws are useless and protections are near zero.

Transfers from the 747 are so rare that once on the 747, resign yourself to a career on type. The shiny new 777 “X” and A350 will never be on your licence. Never.

Pollution in Hong Kong is life-threatening.

If you’re concerned about a five year wait for an upgrade, you’re standing too close to the picture. Step back and look again.

Bollocks. The shiny new A50 is on my licence. Now. Granted had to wait a bit. !!

[Cpt. Underpants]

As a matter of interest, how long did you wait?
Was that FO B747 to FO A50 or SO B747 to JFO A50?
Just curious. You don't need to be precise or disclose anything that you feel may compromise your identity BTW.
Is there anything else in my reply that you feel needs a rebuttal?

[Sam Ting Wong]

All SO's on the 747 currently upgrade on 777 or Airbus.

Cpt Underpants, I think you should talk to somebody. You sound clinically depressed, seriously.

[Roy De Kantzow]

I think the vitriol and nonsense posted on this forum closely rivals Mumsnet for the title of most ridiculous forum on the internet.Capt. Underpants – you moan and complain, yet you still presumably work at CX. Deterring new joiners WILL NOT improve your COS or general working situation. COS 18 is undeniably poor, in comparison to A and B scales, but in the world market, it is still better than many, many opportunities available to low hour pilots.

[MENELAUS]

As a matter of interest, how long did you wait?
Was that FO B747 to FO A50 or SO B747 to JFO A50?
Just curious. You don't need to be precise or disclose anything that you feel may compromise your identity BTW.
Is there anything else in my reply that you feel needs a rebuttal?

None of the above. Slightly more senior than that.

[jakekenobi]

Can someone post real numbers how many pilots left form jun`18 to jun`19 and how many got hired.

There were couple of good posts in previous treads here,real numbers and crew composition.

Cheers

[Slasher1]

I think the vitriol and nonsense posted on this forum closely rivals Mumsnet for the title of most ridiculous forum on the internet.Capt. Underpants – you moan and complain, yet you still presumably work at CX. Deterring new joiners WILL NOT improve your COS or general working situation. COS 18 is undeniably poor, in comparison to A and B scales, but in the world market, it is still better than many, many opportunities available to low hour pilots.
Although there may be some cynical tone (due to the multitudes of warnings yet still Pollyannas trying to rationalize making a bad choice), I think in many cases there is a genuine well natured intent to keep a kid from making a bad life decision. Similar to when an older adult might see a kid wanting to try drugs, drink and drive, vandalize property, drop out of school, or shoplift. Granted there is a level of frustration in seeing someone who is well warned continue to engage in behavior which will hurt him — hence the apparent sarcasm.

You also have to remember that new joiners (as well as those extending on POS18) are being used and manipulated as pawns — useful idiots as it were — to denigrate working conditions, pay, and opportunities for everyone else in the workforce. Their ignorance and selfishness has a tangible impact on everyone else working here. Even if their personal intent was to do a couple of years and then bugger off, their actions have hurt others who might be mid career with a great deal of seniority in a seniority based business. As such, I believe a level of scolding is in order.

[Flying Clog]

Have to 100% agree with Slasher. Well said.

[Sam Ting Wong]

100 % disagree.

Condescending, patronizing, ideologic.


Grind King, Jakenobi,

as you probably realize by now, and Slasher's comments are making it obvious, there is a vociferous group of pilots in CX who don't want you to join. They believe that if the company would not be able to recruit on current terms this would somehow shield their own contract.

I think this is nonsense. In my opinion Cathay has to respect the market and every company that is as ignorant as Slasher would go under sooner or later. So, to be fair, I am not neutral either.

Wether Slasher and the others truly believe their statements regarding life in HK and CX, or if they deliberately paint a gloomy picture I don't know. What I do know is it ain't true or at the very least is highly subjective.

Wether or not the current offer is sufficient or not I can't judge. It would not be acceptable for me, but naturally it all depends on your options. My advice would be: do your homework. Check the cost of living, especially housing and school fees if applicable. Being single or having double income helps. Most junior pilots have partners with jobs, the generation of Slasher and Cpt Underpants mostly don't. It is in the end all up to your personal situation. A lot of expats do not like to live in Hong Kong, they eventually start a long haul commute, a fool proof way to misery in my opinion.Or they decide to stay for 25 years because it is actually the best option ( but still moan on PPrune how miserable life here is).

If you can, extend your stay during the interview and see for yourself.

As for the numbers I don't know for sure, but low three digits in new recruits every year, mainly cadets.

Attrition might be higher among low seniority guys at the moment, but not because CX became worse. What changed is that Quantas, Air NZ, UPS etc started to hire again and/or they have now the hours to apply.

The new contract on offer, as I understand it, does not give you a guaranteed income, it all depends on the number of hours you work. Naturally, you can't influence your roster. If you work as much as current pilots your income is at the same level, but only then. I have no idea how many hours you will get to work.

Time to upgrade is guess work. Nobody knows. Currently 4 years from SO to JFO. The type you will upgrade on will be decided on the day. Again, nobody knows. At the moment all 747 SO transfer to other fleets.

The 747 is probably the most undesirable fleet at the moment.I personally would rather fly passengers and I hate most of the hotels. On the upside, I would argue the 747 gives you the most consecutive days off due to longer rest requirements after a week on the road. My average number of days off is currently 14 plus leave, hence I would not take any other type even if it would be offered to me.

Good luck

[Flying Clog]

Opinions are like arseholes though aren't they STW? Every plonker has got one. Management apologist or Stockholm Syndrome? Or just plain old management?

[cxorcist]

Regardless of whether you think HK is great place to live or not (it’s definitely not on low income or if you value your pulmonary health), CX is a good company or not, the freighter is horrible or not, etc.; joining on CoS18 is NOT a career move. It may be a resume builder, but it’s nothing more than that. CoS18 is designed for the local HK Chinese who plans to continue living with his parents and not have children of his own. In short, CoS18 is simply a low paying pilot job for the video game generation, not much different than scores of service sector jobs. It’s not for career aviators or anyone seeking to generate wealth.

[CXDOG]

STW. I get that you are trying to be the voice of moderation and expectation vs satisfaction etc etc. But something doesn’t quite give. You claim to be on the 747?? Yet:
“At the moment all 747 SO transfer to other fleets”

Not true. You better have a chat to the numerous JFOs on the 747.

And:

“I would argue the 747 gives you the most consecutive days off due to longer rest requirements after a week on the road. My average number of days off is currently 14 plus leave”

Do you mean the sometimes 10 day patterns with only 6 days off after them? Try the 777 who work 6 days and get 10 days off. Unless you are counting ‘O’ days (which can’t be counted as they can be used by the company) and half days before or after a flight, NO-ONE on the 747 is getting 14 days off a month! We are a ‘days-limited’ fleet and they are not rostering more than the minimum contractual G days. I average 10 per month and have done for the last few years.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dog,

so you think an "O" is not an off day? Seriously? So a day off work doesn't count because in theory the company could have used you? I would never count reserve, but not to count an O day is ridiculous.

I flew maybe 600 hours last 12 months and yes, for sure, 14 days off on average PLUS leave ( including "O" days). I can't even remember when I had a 10 day trip, maybe once a year? I also did not claim you don't get sometimes a 10 day trip. I said on average I have 14 days off.

I am HKG based, so maybe overseas-based guys fly more? If you don't believe me, go to the hub, master roster and count the days. I invite everybody else to do the same. I just checked the first five ( excluding the management pilot) and I count an average 17 days in August. It is there for you to check, black on white.

I do believe the 747 is getting the most consecutive days off, but to be honest I did not evaluate that in depth. I believe it is the case, but I don't care much about other fleets. If indeed others get even more, fine, good on them, and I give you that point.


At the moment means at the moment. As we speak, 747 SO's get ALL transferred to other fleets. I did not say this was the case in the past, I just didn't.

I also make it very clear that I have no clue whatsoever about the future in that regard.

PS What do you think does the O in O day stand for?

PSS You don't have to share my opinion, but don't accuse me of giving false information. That job is been taken.

[cxorcist]

An O day is CX’s replacement for junior manning, since CX isn’t actually a seniority airline. They want to be able to grab anyone, not just the most junior. Is it a day off? Mostly, yes. Would I make plans? No!!!

[Dilbert68]

Sam Ting Wong,

You Sir, are a complete moron.
An O day is not a day off, my O days are regularly converted to duties. You cannot plan anything on an O day because it is a form of reserve. Call 8929 and you O day is now changed to work. I have never heard of another airline that operates this way an neither has Jeppesen, their software had no idea how to cope.
Only a management apologist idiot like you would consider an O day a day off.

Go back into your hole.

[cxorcist]

Sam Ting Wong,

You Sir, are a complete moron.
An O day is not a day off, my O days are regularly converted to duties. You cannot plan anything on an O day because it is a form of reserve. Call 8929 and you O day is now changed to work. I have never heard of another airline that operates this way an neither has Jeppesen, their software had no idea how to cope.
Only a management apologist idiot like you would consider an O day a day off.

Go back into your hole.

Dilbert is correct. O days are an industry nonstandard. They are free reserve and should not exist. Pilots should have duties, days off, or reserve. Reserve should never be touching a duty. It’s a stand alone. That there is no credit associated with reserve is another industry nonstandard. All of these and many more (industry nonstandards) are what drives the sickness rates at CX so high. To argue otherwise is foolhardy and wishful thinking by the Company. CX has always considered itself somehow special and different when it comes to employing pilots. Well, that is certainly true, but not in a good way as used to be the case.

[CXDOG]

STW. So when you see coming up on your roster
G
X
X
X
O
X
X
G

Do you see 3 days of work, a day off and 2 more days of work? I see 6 continuous days where my roster may or may not resemble what’s planned. Would you plan to do anything special on the middle O day?

PS. I read the O in O day as Optional. As in it’s the company’s option to use us or not

PPS. “I do believe the 747 is getting the most consecutive days off”. So you’re making a comparison judgement without actually comparing. Interesting methodology.

[Sam Ting Wong]

An O day is an OFF day if I actually did not work on that day. If I had a delay or a roster change and I worked on that day it was not an OFF day. If you want to plan ahead go and work for a LCC on 5/3 roster. Enjoy. Plus 90% of my O days will remain O days. Don't bs me. I am on the 747, I know the truth.

On average I have 14 days OFF plus leave.

That is a fact.

You guys have any idea how hard EK roster are? Or any LCC ? Chinese contracts?

Not ONE of our cargo competitors pilots earn more or works less. Not one. We ( B /Arapa) are worldwide the best paid and treated cargo pilots. Don't you see that?? Do you have ANY idea how a roster and a paycheck looks like at Air Bridge Cargo, Atlas, Qatar, Korean or Kalita? Air Hong Kong? Any idea what kind of FTL's they have, sick leave policy, staff travel options? These are our direct competitors, not FedEx or UPS. These are the companies we have to beat, these are the companies we need to be better at all what we do.

You are completely ignoring the world out there.
Completely.

The problem with you guys is always the same, be it roster, pay, all our terms and conditions.

You don't appreciate what you have, you will never be satisfied. Ever.

You will always cherry pick, always believe you been cheated and others have what you deserve.

You believe this is like a Turkish Bazar. Just ask for as much as possible and always pretend you been robbed. Well, think again. At some point the other side will just walk away.

Which is exactly what has happened.

Only in Cathay you have guys on 300k USD after tax whinging about staff travel cost.

The problem with that attitude is that the company knows by now it doesn't matter what they offer. It will never be enough for you guys.

Because of people like you, they will now completely ignore what we say, not only mostly as they used to.

Plus, thanks to you, they now know how innocuous CC or a TB really are.

With that kind of attitude you destroyed the union. You guys fantasise about people leaving CX, but what we will really see is people leaving the union.

You are making us a laughing stock ( ice pirates anyone? the "forgotten fleet"?)

Ridiculous.

PS I will now enjoy my leave. With attached 5 joker days. Go on and keep making up stories to each other. No further comments from me.

[787dash9]

As someone who has left CX around half a year ago-

All the info you read on here is correct. I couldn’t be happier with my choice to leave, rosters are better (no O days, which are NOT days off btw- you can and will get called for them and if you report sick you either have to include them for the period you call sick for, or you WILL get used for them), don’t do red eyes, colleagues who are happy, company who takes good care of us and conditions that actually get better rather than worse.

And no, it’s not that CX pilots are always complaining no matter what, it truly is a frustrating and demoralising company to be in.

Do yourself a favour, look for other options or know what your getting yourself into. And if you’re presently at CX thinking of leaving, do it- I wish I had done it sooner.

[Toruk Macto]

A day off means I can plan rest , plan to pick up the kids and plan to catch up with wife or friends . Can’t plan any of that with an O day . It may turn into a day off .

[Farman Biplane]

STW, you do realise that you are not employed as a “solely “ freighter/cargo pilot? Comparison with the other cargo carriers is invalid. You are actually enjoying pax rates to fly the 747 freighter, as we no longer have the pax version. Likewise that is why your contract doesn’t change when you transfer to the Airbus/777 fleets.

An Operational day is not a day off on your published roster as you cannot Guarantee the day off and hence plan to be somewhere or do something you desire. Should you not be abused on your O day then yes, you can treat it as a day off in retrospect, but what use is that if you couldn’t Guarantee its use?

[Air Profit]

STW. Why don't you change your moniker to STFU. Seriously. Company apologist of the worst kind.

[MENELAUS]

Why is it when someone offers a contrarian view, then he’s management ? He’s far from a company apologist. He just happens to speak the truth. Look, flying the freighter is ****e, on so many levels. You do, however, get more days off, admittedly at the expense of hdp and therefore provident fund. And that is the major rub. What makes the freighter particularly **** vs the pax fleets is getting d@cked around in general, and therefore the instability of the whole roster. 2 to 3 hour turnarounds don’t help either. And a complete lack of choice wrt destination requests ( save GDL) is another causus belli. Does getting dicked around happen that often; in truth, no. Enough to be a pain in the arse..yes, but nowhere near as often as guys claim.

And comments like the above
“

Farman Biplane (https://www.pprune.org/members/175055-farman-biplane)

Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 294
STW, you do realise that you are not employed as a “solely “ freighter/cargo pilot? Comparison with the other cargo carriers is invalid. You are actually enjoying pax rates to fly the 747 freighter, as we no longer have the pax version. “

just go to show how out of touch some people are. The reality is that if you are not on the alleged forgotten fleet then no one gives a ****. And I now fly with individuals who don’t even know what the freighter does. Or even that the 747 was once the longhaul mainstay of the company.

[Piet Lood]

STW wrote: "Not ONE of our cargo competitors pilots earn more or works less. Not one. We ( B /Arapa) are worldwide the best paid and treated cargo pilots. Don't you see that?? Do you have ANY idea how a roster and a paycheck looks like at Air Bridge Cargo, Atlas, Qatar, Korean or Kalita? Air Hong Kong? Any idea what kind of FTL's they have, sick leave policy, staff travel options? These are our direct competitors, not FedEx or UPS. These are the companies we have to beat, these are the companies we need to be better at all what we do."


Apples and oranges.
A friend of mine is in Hong Kong Airlines and wanted to get into cx. He decided not to because of the paycut under the current offered COS.(Not B scale mind you).
Also you will find that some of the airlines that you mentioned, the financial compensation is actually better AFTER taxes, cost of living, housing allowance and considering 100% schooling allowance until 21 years of age.
Don't even mention the quality and availability of staff travel benefits.
Sure, you don't get to live in the "safe" and "clean" city of Hong Kong, but each to his/her own.
Sick leave policy??? Hahaha, don't make me laugh. Fear and intimidation policy you mean!
How much of your 300k USD is going to the tax man and the bank/your landlord?
If you were lucky/smart/"stupid" enough to buy a property, better be selling fast. The market will be "slightly" worse if the riots continue.

[cxorcist]

The freighter can be perfectly enjoyable assuming you fly on body clock and/or with augmented crew and get good rest in the hotels. The problem is that there are many 2 sector, 2 man WOCL duties, lots of delays affecting rest plans, and daytime sleep in hotels can be quite elusive, especially when the hotel staff has no idea that you aren’t checking out by 10am like everyone else.

As for competing with FedEx/UPS, those two definitely are relevant. Many of our pilots can and have left for those two airlines. Whether they fly overnight packages or general cargo is totally irrelevant. Who fed you that line of BS, STW? You really are dumb if you believe that.

UPS flies many 747Fs, just like CX and puts quite a bit of cargo on our aircraft. They have also sold out the 747-8 line for the next several years. They are definitely coming after CX.

[Air Profit]

And both Fedex and UPS seem perfectly capable of providing their pilots with stable, high day off per month rosters. Only our myopic, insular and incompetent management seem incapable of understanding the obvious. The methods are ably demonstrated by our competitors, and that is why this airline is ultimately doomed to become a sad footnote in aviation history. You can't run a premium airline with substandard crew pay and conditions, low morale and high turnover. Many of our colleagues have concluded the same, and are now enjoying fruitful careers elsewhere.

[Slasher1]

OK...........Fine......

You try and help a brother pilot out by explaining what has been happening over the past decade(s), what is happening now, why it’s happening and you get STW and the like (IMHO someone doing damage control—either a company apologist or a Stockholm Syndrome pilot) manipulating facts to make things sound better than they are. Rationalizing to themselves. Making things up about O days that aren’t true, etc. Kind of like the company manipulating people, groups, and contracts. Not going to get into the weeds about it; POS 18 is (IMHO) a horrible contract; a pay for work deal which is wholly company centric and lacks all of the pay for work protections that a REAL airline pay for work contract has (no pay protection, duty rigs, trip rigs, decent minimum guarantee, real bidding and control over ones’ roster, real trip trading ability with pay protection, etc). One way street where they call and pay you if they need you but otherwise you’re stuffed. Have a look at it compared to a real CA/EA or CBA from a US major. Have a look at how many majors allow for the multitude of divisive contracts, differing conditions, and side deals that exist here (further dividing the work force against itself). Have a look at the effects of divisive conditions and a factionalized work force. Have a look at what you really NEED to live at a decent standard in HKG. And draw your own conclusions.

I think each DFO — when taking the reigns — gets one free ‘crazy idea’ card. Something which has the potential to have short term company gain (while ignoring long term company health and quality of product)—but is so absurd that the pilot body couldn’t possibly accept it without walking out. A kind of way out there “can I get away with this” thing to measure resistance as a barometer. In recent history some examples of this might be Dickie’s B-minus/C scale transition, Anna’s Continuous Reserve/rolling roster collapse scheduling system, and the present one is POS 18.

And there to me IS a culpability to those (regardless of circumstance) who roll in and blindly accept these deteriorating conditions. While YOU might simply be passing through using this as a stepping stone, there remain a large quantity of pilots that have been here (acquiring seniority) that now have to deal with the destruction that you, by your selfishness, have left in the wake. And if you would decide to stay by your naive outlook have cut your and your mates throats downline. Contrary to what STW might say this does NOT happen at major successful airlines elsewhere (who might view people as a longer term investment). Granted most of these have bargaining units which would not allow such a divisive contract structure to exist in the first place and realize the great destruction of workforce division (strangely enough both from a management and union perspective). Successful organizations take a team and incentive approach — realizing that the incentives created by someone feeling they are part of something larger than themselves and a strong sense of cohesion to the team is one of the most powerful motivating forces in the universe.

My contract ain’t gonna change until I pull the pin and I’m in a position to do so really at any time (which is a good position to be in and I’d suggest folks get there somehow as soon as possible). The places I routinely live are (IMHO) nicer than the Chief Executives’ in HKG (meaning that you probably HAVE to commute for a decent lifestyle; something the new contract will not support—what you need to make depends entirely on where you live). When you’re an old guy that can do that this deal can actually be fun if you’re proactive in making it so. Most all of my friends who have decades in front of them with airline flying as a career have left (and I really miss them—which was one of the major reasons for being here in the first place).

Has it been a mistake ? Depends on in what sprit you ask the question. If it’s in regard to a life experience, then no—things happen in life and you learn and grow from them while enjoying the ride. Which I’ve done. Made a lot of friends and experienced some pretty cool things with many blessings in life at this point. Learned a lot about others and myself while enjoying the ride. Things in life happen for a reason and you really want to embrace it. But I joined quite a bit ago and things have accelerated downward over the past 4 or 5 years. If the intent was to have a fulfilling airline career and being a part of something great in aviation then most definitely it was a mistake. All of the great things have involved some wonderful people and great friends (and a few cool places and experiences) and not the job itself. If I was looking for a fulfilling career and knew then what I know now (or had someone helpful on the internet who actually worked there providing advice), I would have made a much different decision. Perhaps my fault; perhaps because information flowed more slowly then (and it really was a different place but perhaps there were warning signs I ignored). Perhaps at the time I was one of those Pollyannas that seem to pervade this forum (albeit on better conditions). And have learned something.

AND things have gone downhill since then; at least toward new joiner conditions and future outlook.

Yes, there IS a definite pilot shortage (even in the US) and market conditions will never be better. Even some US majors are short staffed (witness the record travel numbers and cancellations when anything happens because even they have difficulty shuffling crews; and they are better staffed than here). Seniority is everything in the airline business. You have veterans of decade(s) of experience here deciding to dump the precious seniority they have for greener pastures (and endure much lower conditions for a couple of years while they climb the ladder again—but with a futures outlook much brighter in every way). And a happier life (which is probably the most important thing). Draw your own conclusions.

It’s a big, bright world out there and ones’ most valuable asset in life is time. If one wastes it one will certainly look back with regret. So make good choices; ones which embrace a bright future. Not one driven out of fear or that this is ‘the best you can do.’ Abandon poor choices quickly so that you don’t get suckered into a quagmire and self-made rut.

I can save no one from themselves nor can (or should) I try to help someone who has powerful rationalization skills. Some people gotta do a face plant on the concrete to figure out it hurts and you should avoid doing face plants on the concrete to begin with (and ignoring the advice of those who’ve tripped and done a few face plants themselves). Y’all have at it and good luck.

[SaulGoodman]

Slasher1. I do not work for CX but I once thought about it and decided not to. But to blame the new guys is the easiest thing to do and completely irrelevant. They just choose what is best for them at the moment. The pilots who are already in the company are the only ones who can fight for a descent CWA. If anything, blame yourself

[Slasher1]

Slasher1. I do not work for CX but I once thought about it and decided not to. But to blame the new guys is the easiest thing to do and completely irrelevant. They just choose what is best for them at the moment. The pilots who are already in the company are the only ones who can fight for a descent CWA. If anything, blame yourself

Sorry if I made myself less clear than I should have. Intended as more of a caution/warning than anything else.

I agree in part but also disagree in part. There’s plenty of blame to go around and not one cause but several. Part of it is differing factions within the workforce who allow themselves to be played off against each other—to their own future detriment. Part of it is lack of resolve and ability to take on risk to stop the decline. Some of it is pussies and scabs, part of it is apathy.

Part of it it is physically separated bargaining units with different agendas.

And part of it is new joiners, individual deal makers, and extenders who do so on inferior contracts undermining everyone else.

It is what it is.

Take care.

[Apple Tree Yard]

And all of the above listed points are EXACTLY why there will never again be a stable career available at CX. It's an airline of inexperienced, naive mercenaries, constantly undermining themselves and being undermined by constant hiring of previously ineligible individuals to replace the high resignation rate of the currently employed. Nothing but an overworked and broken training system desperately trying to keep up with attrition. Tell me that is a recipe for a settled, lucrative and rewarding career? :rolleyes: If you aren't making plans to escape this madhouse, you need your pulse checked.

[Kitsune]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/hong-kong-protest-movement-rooted-in-economic-misery-37q88rp7v

[787dash9]

I have a big question here that I cant manage to understand... there is "high resignation rate of the currently employed" but its takes 7 years to go from SO to FO... and no chances to become captain... which part is resigning?

CU-APA, afaik pilots of all ranks are resigning, the delay in upgrading comes from CX hiring DEFO bypassing current SOs and the slow but steady transitioning from 1SO on longhauls to 2SO, increasing the need for SOs in the company, but reducing the need for FOs. Another factor is that the training resources are exhausted with the DEFO and also training captains to be trainers.

The reason above, the toxic culture, constant lies about upgrades and a lot of other things and living cost/ qualify are, just to name a few, some of the reasons why myself and a lot of other SOs resigned.

Lots of other, much better options out there at the moment.

[Cpt. Underpants]

The upgrade time from SO to JFO is currently about 4½ years. It's projected to go to somewhere near 7 years.
The tranche of pilots resigning are primarily senior FO's with marketable hours. There are some captains leaving too, as well as SO's.
More sectors are being planned with a CN/SFO/SO/SO compliment which is increasing the need for SO's, and decreasing the number of FO's to make up crew numbers.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Completely fabricated.

[bm330]

Completely fabricated.

Nice comeback.

[Flex88]

The upgrade time from SO to JFO is currently about 4½ years. It's projected to go to somewhere near 7 years.
The tranche of pilots resigning are primarily senior FO's with marketable hours. There are some captains leaving too, as well as SO's.
More sectors are being planned with a CN/SFO/SO/SO compliment which is increasing the need for SO's, and decreasing the number of FO's to make up crew numbers.

STW would lead you to believe CX is Nirvana.. He is naive, at best.. Myself, I simply don't like seeing persons go broke slowly drip, drip, drip. If you decide to have a family, and have accepted POS18, this will hasten the pace..

All this "up to 7 years" as C Underpants indicates is speculative at best. No mention has been made of the addition of HK Express and its impact. My guess, this will extend upgrade times (they will offload routes to the cheaper airline) by xxx years and additionally radically change any "upgrade progression" BS CX and others have so far expounded !!

The gloves are off and CX is swinging. Enjoy.

#CXit

[cxorcist]

STW would lead you to believe CX is Nirvana.. He is naive, at best.. Myself, I simply don't like seeing persons go broke slowly drip, drip, drip. If you decide to have a family, and have accepted POS18, this will hasten the pace..

All this "up to 7 years" as C Underpants indicates is speculative at best. No mention has been made of the addition of HK Express and its impact. My guess, this will extend upgrade times (they will offload routes to the cheaper airline) by xxx years and additionally radically change any "upgrade progression" BS CX and others have so far expounded !!

The gloves are off and CX is swinging. Enjoy.

#CXit

No, that’s incorrect. Maybe we need to bring Nick Rhodes back to explain it. HKE will actually decrease upgrade times as synergies make both airlines grow faster. It’s much the same as RA65. It definitely decreased time to command because many of those going to 65 are trainers. I’ve got some ocean front property and a bridge to sell you too! Pilots, on the whole, are so dumb. I’m just wishing I chose a different profession...

[CXDOG]

Ok this time I’m agreeing with STW. ‘Upgrade from SO to JFO is ‘projected’ to increase to seven years’ is a fabrication. The P2X rating is only valid for 5 years. Cannot be renewed or extended. Therefore upgrade will never exceed 5 years.

[cxorcist]

Ok this time I’m agreeing with STW. ‘Upgrade from SO to JFO is ‘projected’ to increase to seven years’ is a fabrication. The P2X rating is only valid for 5 years. Cannot be renewed or extended. Therefore upgrade will never exceed 5 years.

5 years?!?! Might as well become a doctor. You’d be into your second year of residency after 5 years. Or, as a lawyer in your third year of practice. Or, you could be making bunks, eating sandwiches, and occasionally getting to load the FMC at CX. Duh, it ain’t worth it!

[anxiao]

CXDOG we’ve been through this before.

Yes the P2X rating was originally limited to 5 years, for good reasons by CAD. However it was asked at the time what could CX do if they wanted to extend that period.

The answer was to to upgrade to a P2 or P1 rating and fly the pilot as a relief co pilot on S/O pay. All refresher landings could be done in the simulator.

Whether that would be approved by the current CAD is a moot point

[Sam Ting Wong]

Folks, unfortunately you can't have a mass exodus and delayed promotion simultaneously.

You will have to stick with one doomsday scenario at a time I am afraid.

[cxorcist]

Folks, unfortunately you can't have a mass exodus and delayed promotion simultaneously.

You will have to stick with one doomsday scenario at a time I am afraid.

Actually, that’s not quite true. If the fleet is getting smaller, an airline actually can have delayed promotion and large numbers of pilots leaving, especially when long haul flying uses 2 SOs. Ask yourself how many 777-300ERs are leaving the fleet... Answer: every single one on lease.

PS: I know who you are, and you’re not nearly as brilliant as you think.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Sorry, I did not get the memo regarding the shrinking fleet.

So it is now mass exodus, delayed promotions, a shrinking fleet, HK Express taking over our routes, pos 18 for all, 2x S/o on long haul, Chinese marching in and the pollution killing us, correct?

[Sam Ting Wong]

https://www.google.com.hk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2019/07/27/cathay-pacific-to-cut-hk-express-fleet-expansion/amp (https://www.google.com.hk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2019/07/27/cathay-pacific-to-cut-hk-express-fleet-expansion/amp/)

[Sqwak7700]

Folks, unfortunately you can't have a mass exodus and delayed promotion simultaneously.

You will have to stick with one doomsday scenario at a time I am afraid.

It seems like you have a hard time understanding complex situations with many moving parts.

When an airline does not grow, that reduces the number of promotions. Cathay is not growing. As someone already mentioned, many planes have left the fleet recently and continue to do so. 21 777s are leased and leaving to make room for the newer 777s.

Crewing complement has changed. 2SO long haul will be the norm on all long haul. That reduces the number of FOs required.

CMP has removed a lot of inefficiencies in rostering by hand. This has squeezed out more productivity out of the pilots we do have. Which has the effect of reducing all rank requirements.

All these measures plus the constant reduction of our benefits and pay have resulted in high resignation rates. This is offset by continuous recruitment and lowering of standards to try to minimise the impact. Are you seriously saying you have not seen the barrage of standards changes for all ranks?

You might want to take your own advise as well. You talk about contradicting signals. Here’s one, you can’t have so much smoke without a fire, yet post after post from you say the smoke is fake and there is no fire.

Your trolling is getting old and more desperate with every post. Keep it up please, it is quite entertaining and provides great opportunity to highlight the smoke.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are back paddling and just trying to
distract by personal insults. An easy sign of desperation.

I did not talk about growth, never. Cxorcist claimed falsely we are facing a shrinking fleet albeit the arrival of 40plus aircraft. Sure, some of the deliveries are replacements. Even if all of them would be, which they are not, this would not result in a shrinking fleet. Simply a false claim.

HKE will not grow significantly, the idea they are taking our routes is proposterous. Read the press statement. One 320 per year best case. HKE is of course a complementary business and insignificant in terms of fleet size and growth. Plus time will tell if they really are cheaper. As we speak they operate at a loss. Maybe they just bought it so nobody else could, who knows.

The idea of having a mass exodus and delayed promotions at the same time is absurd. Not with a constant or rather moderately growing fleet. We did not grow much for years now. Mathematical impossible.Interestingly you guys are very quick to point out upcoming retirements and a looming pilot shortage when it suits you. As I said, you can't have it all, even conspiracies have limits.

The long haul 2 x S/O impact is negligible. It will not happen overnight and only on very selected routes, if at all. Somehow reminds me of the 3 men long haul topic a few years back. Which was also very popular in here for a while..

But you know all that. Talking of smoke.. smoke and mirrors comes to mind reading your posts..

[cxorcist]

CX had 100 aircraft in 2007. 12 years later it has 134. That’s a growth rate of less than 3% per annum. So let’s not pretend there is or will ever be substantial growth at CX. Arguments to the contrary based on orders simply lack historical context.

[SOPS]

You are back paddling and just trying to
distract by personal insults. An easy sign of desperation.

I did not talk about growth, never. Cxorcist claimed falsely we are facing a shrinking fleet albeit the arrival of 40plus aircraft. Sure, some of the deliveries are replacements. Even if all of them would be, which they are not, this would not result in a shrinking fleet. Simply a false claim.

HKE will not grow significantly, the idea they are taking our routes is proposterous. Read the press statement. One 320 per year best case. HKE is of course a complementary business and insignificant in terms of fleet size and growth. Plus time will tell if they really are cheaper. As we speak they operate at a loss. Maybe they just bought it so nobody else could, who knows.

The idea of having a mass exodus and delayed promotions at the same time is absurd. Not with a constant or rather moderately growing fleet. We did not grow much for years now. Mathematical impossible.Interestingly you guys are very quick to point out upcoming retirements and a looming pilot shortage when it suits you. As I said, you can't have it all, even conspiracies have limits.

The long haul 2 x S/O impact is negligible. It will not happen overnight and only on very selected routes, if at all. Somehow reminds me of the 3 men long haul topic a few years back. Which was also very popular in here for a while..

But you know all that. Talking of smoke.. smoke and mirrors comes to mind reading your posts..

You think HKE won’t take routes off CX? As the Qantas guys about Jetstar.

[Sam Ting Wong]

CX had 100 aircraft in 2007. 12 years later it has 134. That’s a growth rate of less than 3% per annum. So let’s not pretend there is or will ever be substantial growth at CX. Arguments to the contrary based on orders simply lack historical context.







I never claimed there would be. You claimed we are facing a shrinking fleet and that is simply false.


SOPS,

no idea. Maybe, maybe not, I was referring to the comments of our chairman until 2024. Beyond that I don't know. We had a similar discussion after the acquisition of Dragon, remember? The idea is to grow in all segments, if that is feasible or not time will tell. Premium/connecting traffic can't be easilyreplaced by HKE. And Quantas is doing quite well, don't they? LCC is of course a threat, but does it matter if that business is owned by cathay or somebody else? I don't think so. LCC are affecting all, except Cargo. So I don't see it as a particular or exclusive threat for Cathay, but in general? Sure.

Cxorcist,

I also never said becoming a pilot in 2019 is a great idea. I most certainly don't think it is. Yes, totally, by all means go to university instead and become a doctor or lawyer. But that is not really what this discussion is about, or is it? We can't make these choices nor should we pretend these options are on the table in the first place. They might for a selected few, the top 1-2% of their class, but for the rest it is the choice between lower hanging fruits..

[cxorcist]

The bottom line is that CX is a very bad deal for new joiners at this point. This is why we are scraping the very bottom of the barrel for “pilots”. Being an SO for 5 years is a sick joke. Waiting 13+++ years for command is even worse, especially considering the QOL in HK, specifically without a housing allowance. The whole situation is all kinds of wrong, which is why quite a large number of pilots have left and many more are sure to go. Is it catastrophic for CX? Apparently not. Very troubling and a new low? For sure!

[cxorcist]

You think HKE won’t take routes off CX? As the Qantas guys about Jetstar.

Even Dragon, with essentially no cost advantage, has taken routes from CX. HKE is sure to take more.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dragon and Cathay are offering the same product.

HKE is doing the 0300 am to Manila from the remote terminal.

HKE has neither the product, nor the slots or the aircraft. The airport is full. The chairman says HKE is serving a niche market, stopped the expansion and just cancelled the aircraft on order.

What else do you guys need?

[Air Profit]

On a bit of a crusade Sam...? :rolleyes:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Too many OFF days.

[Air Profit]

:ok:..........

[VR-HFX]

Freighter pie deprivation. Make sure you do another few laps of the main deck when you get back to work.

[cxorcist]

Dragon and Cathay are offering the same product.

HKE is doing the 0300 am to Manila from the remote terminal.

HKE has neither the product, nor the slots or the aircraft. The airport is full. The chairman says HKE is serving a niche market, stopped the expansion and just cancelled the aircraft on order.

What else do you guys need?


So CX payed all that money for HKE so they could do the 3am flight to Manila (and similar)? No network synergies, no harmonization, just stand-alone, niche markets in the middle of the night? What a rip off!!! Now that sounds like the modern day CX I know... Five years of massive, upside down fuel hedges and now this. Will the CX employees have to pay for HKE too? Because we certainly have been paying for the fuel hedges.

[Air Profit]

Of course CX employees will be paying for HKE. I'm surprised you would even pose that as a question.

[Flex88]

Ok this time I’m agreeing with STW. ‘Upgrade from SO to JFO is ‘projected’ to increase to seven years’ is a fabrication. The P2X rating is only valid for 5 years. Cannot be renewed or extended. Therefore upgrade will never exceed 5 years.

Y'all been drinking the CX cool-aid again.. What part of don't listen to CX BS don't you get !!

[CXDOG]

Y'all been drinking the CX cool-aid again.. What part of don't listen to CX BS don't you get !!
It ain’t CX BS. When I was an SO years ago I actually read the CAD regs. It’s in there you twit 😂

A quick google search found it (HKCAD P2X). HKCAD Requirements Document – Pilot Licences & Associated Ratings Sect 9.6.2 last sentence “The holder of a restricted rating will be expected to be qualified for an unrestricted rating within a period of 5 years since the endorsement of a P2X rating.”

[Che Xindamail]

,
It ain’t CX BS. When I was an SO years ago I actually read the CAD regs. It’s in there you twit 😂

A quick google search found it (HKCAD P2X). HKCAD Requirements Document – Pilot Licences & Associated Ratings Sect 9.6.2 last sentence “The holder of a restricted rating will be expected to be qualified for an unrestricted rating within a period of 5 years since the endorsement of a P2X rating.”

I’m sorry to dampen your enthusiasm, but your post was almost endearing. Anyone with airline experience will know that a phrase like ‘expected to be’ is equivalent to ‘at company discretion’, which means the company will do whatever they want to, whenever they want to, preferably from the aft part of your anatomy, if it will save them money or just because they can.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So, just to summarise

pilot shortage

mass exodus ( looming/already happening)

HKE taking our routes

7.5 years to J/FO

S/O x 2 on long haul

Pos18 for all

RA55 will stay on to 65

Swire will sell Cathay to China
China will march in

Fuel Hedge is a big swindle to funnel money to Swire

Hole in the ground because of lack of experience

747 is the worst possible punishment/ life sentence

pollution is killing us all

[Threethirty]

STW, you forgot to mention weasels going into training

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Weasels? You’re very polite!

STW, you forgot to mention weasels going into training

[cxorcist]

So, just to summarise

pilot shortage

mass exodus ( looming/already happening)

HKE taking our routes

7.5 years to J/FO

S/O x 2 on long haul

Pos18 for all

RA55 will stay on to 65

Swire will sell Cathay to China
China will march in

Fuel Hedge is a big swindle to funnel money to Swire

Hole in the ground because of lack of experience

747 is the worst possible punishment/ life sentence

pollution is killing us all

If only CX could clone STW, they’d be all set. No pushback from pilots on anything, ever, and nothing but glowing praise regardless. Think how far they could reduce the terms with thousands of STWs... It reminds me of the movie, Oblivion. Quite good, btw.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Just let me know should there be a locust plague or impalements so I can add it to the list.

[cxorcist]

Just let me know should there be a locust plague or impalements so I can add it to the list.


Locusts would die in the HK pollution before a plague could occur.

Perhaps all those PLA troops on the border will provide the impalements on Monday...

[FRYVA]

So, just to summarise

pilot shortage

mass exodus ( looming/already happening)

HKE taking our routes

7.5 years to J/FO

S/O x 2 on long haul

Pos18 for all

RA55 will stay on to 65

Swire will sell Cathay to China
China will march in

Fuel Hedge is a big swindle to funnel money to Swire

Hole in the ground because of lack of experience

747 is the worst possible punishment/ life sentence

pollution is killing us all









You forgot to add that we’re all alcoholics too according to AvMed.

Did my stint in CX. Effectively used it as a CV builder before going home a few years back. Never been happier. Most of the Armageddon scenarios probably wont actually happen but bear in mind it IS a relentlessly negative place to work and, for some, a borderline depressing experience. HK isn’t a walk in the park either. And financially it’s even worse on the D Scale. These days with a licence and a pulse you almost certainly have better options than SO at CX.

As you may gather, I still pop in here occasionally to remind other potential victims of the above. I consider it my own way of paying it back 🙂

[quadspeed]

You forgot to add that we’re all alcoholics too according to AvMed.

Did my stint in CX. Effectively used it as a CV builder before going home a few years back. Never been happier. Most of the Armageddon scenarios probably wont actually happen but bear in mind it IS a relentlessly negative place to work and, for some, a borderline depressing experience. HK isn’t a walk in the park either. And financially it’s even worse on the D Scale. These days with a licence and a pulse you almost certainly have better options than SO at CX.

As you may gather, I still pop in here occasionally to remind other potential victims of the above. I consider it my own way of paying it back 🙂

Did a decade at CX. CoS 99. The SO years were miserable. Leaving that toxic place was the best decision I ever made. To correct the worst one.

The only reason to join CX is if no carriers at home will pick you up. Which in itself says enough.

[G Merch]

Ok this time I’m agreeing with STW. ‘Upgrade from SO to JFO is ‘projected’ to increase to seven years’ is a fabrication. The P2X rating is only valid for 5 years. Cannot be renewed or extended. Therefore upgrade will never exceed 5 years.

From CAD54
" The holder of a restricted rating will be expected to be qualified for an unrestricted rating within a period of 5 years since the endorsement of a P2X rating"

Key word being "expected".
On that same note, I'm "expecting" to receive a pay adjustment in line with current inflation, plus compounding back pay for the years which my pay has not been adjusted.

[cessnapete]

From CAD54
" The holder of a restricted rating will be expected to be qualified for an unrestricted rating within a period of 5 years since the endorsement of a P2X rating"

Key word being "expected".
On that same note, I'm "expecting" to receive a pay adjustment in line with current inflation, plus compounding back pay for the years which my pay has not been adjusted.

As an observer from afar why do Airlines out East/ Australasia employ partially trained S/Os? In BA for example all new hire or cadet pilots are trained from the start as fully qualified to operate as P2 on two crew operations. All modern jets are two crew ops. Pilots recruited onto large jets ie 777/744 and the like obviously need more previous experience on joining. (2000 total. 500 jet time)
All then are fully operational and on augmented crews share out the landings as required.
The only time “ cruise only” happen when a training backlog occurred on A380 and caused a few months delay obtaining the 6 route trading landings required to operate as P2.

[Backupnav]

And, surprise surprise, the negotiations - once again - went nowhere.

[Backupnav]

I don't recall having a lot more leverage before the ban gets broken by a few.

[G Merch]

As an observer from afar why do Airlines out East/ Australasia employ partially trained S/Os? In BA for example all new hire or cadet pilots are trained from the start as fully qualified to operate as P2 on two crew operations. All modern jets are two crew ops. Pilots recruited onto large jets ie 777/744 and the like obviously need more previous experience on joining. (2000 total. 500 jet time)
All then are fully operational and on augmented crews share out the landings as required.
The only time “ cruise only” happen when a training backlog occurred on A380 and caused a few months delay obtaining the 6 route trading landings required to operate as P2.

Several reasons. Firstly, lots of cx operations are >2 crew medium and long haul. That means you need cruise relief. May as well have a sh!t kicker on half the pay of operating crew to do the cruise work. Secondly, giving a P2X rating means the licence is effectively worthless in the real world, and is a way of preventing the Second officer from being appealing to other carriers.

[G Merch]

I don't recall having a lot more leverage before the ban gets broken by a few.

So many long haul flights with more than 1 captain isn't exactly cheap.

[Backupnav]

So many long haul flights with more than 1 captain isn't exactly cheap.

I agree with you, but I guess they figured that option is still more cost effective than giving a decent pay rise across the board.

[main_dog]

Why would they negotiate anymore? They know we have lost our leverage. Thanks to the Training Ban Breakers.

​​​​​​​Exactly. In a nutshell.