Ozzies can’t fly when it’s windy?

[ManaAdaSystem]

What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?
17 kts is too much?
Weird way of doing things.

[DHC4driver]

Yeah, it’s most certainly the pilots who make the decision to CANSEL the sectors.... 🙄

[maggot]

What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?
17 kts is too much?
Weird way of doing things.

At the risk of canning your hyperbole there is significant delays developing in Syd already this morning due to the capacity reductions associated with single runway - it was over 30 a short time ago and they're onto 25

[Ragnor]

What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?
17 kts is too much?
Weird way of doing things.

I would agree little weather phenomena and OZ ATC melt down. Only 24kts crosswind on the parallels on current ATIS

[ManaAdaSystem]

Why single runway ops?
And why only MEL and CBR (and the odd Gold Coast) flights?

[turbantime]

Single runway due to strong westerlies which means only the one east/west runway can be used and not the two north/south runways.

With capacity reductions in force, it’s up to the airlines to decide which services will be cancelled. Normally you would see Mel and the like canned due to the number of flights available during the day to recover pax.

[ManaAdaSystem]

So they use single runway based on the forecasted and not the actual wind?
Wind has not been above 20 kts the whole morning. I love being proactive, but this is plain stupid.

[turbantime]

Whatever man, go whinge on a frequent flyers forum.

[C441]

Ozzies can’t fly when it’s windy? What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?

But hopefully they can spell a primary word in their post! :rolleyes:

[Caedus]

But hopefully they can spell a primary word in their post! :rolleyes:

Given his username relates to Malaysian Airlines, I'd hazard a guess OP is from that part of the world and english is not particularly hot there. What his beef is with the intricacies of how things work over here though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cLeArIcE]

So they use single runway based on the forecasted and not the actual wind?
Wind has not been above 20 kts the whole morning. I love being proactive, but this is plain stupid.
ATC would have looked at the forecast last night and decided under those conditions (single runway ops in Sydney) we can facilitate XXX number of movements. They then would of gone to the airlines and said "hey instead if the 80 slots (a made up number) in Sydney you normally get, you can only have 50. The airlines work it out from there.
Considering how long the ground delays can be just trying to get to RWY 25, I can only imagine the chaos if they didn't cancel flights.
It sucks your plans probably got altered but, it is what it is. You do understand that we don't enjoy it too? How many crews are going to get home hours late or over night in some other city despite the the plans they had with families etc. Probably plenty of controllers working hard and doing over time to (eventually) get you where you are going safely.
(they were probably doing that anyway though :E)
​​​

[das Uber Soldat]

They really do move to 25/07 far too early. Anything up to 30kts should be 16/34. Beyond that ok fine, but I can't think of a single transport category aircraft that can't land in 30 kts. So instead I get to drill holes in the sky over Boree whilst we operate our biggest airport at hobbled capacity.

@$!#

Don't even start me on SODPROPS on a weekend just to tick a box.

[Capt Fathom]

I'd imagine landing on 16R with a 30kt sou'wester would be quite sporting! :ouch:

[neville_nobody]

Back in the day they would allow you to land on 16 if you requested it and the problem used to solve it self. Now by taking away decision making from the PIC they have created a bigger problem

[GreenGhost39]

10.3.1 Selection of Runway in Use10.3.1.1 Use of other than nominated runways. Controllers must not nominate a particular runway for use if an alternative runway is available, when:(a) for runway conditions that are completely dry:(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;(ii) the downwind component, including gusts, exceeds 5 KT.(b) for runway conditions that are not completely dry;(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;(ii) there is a downwind component.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Aaaah Sydney. It’s annoying that it’s too dangerous to land in a moderate crosswind there but landing at max elsewhere is ok. It should be up to the PIC.

[Colonel_Klink]

However going into Melbourne late at night it’s not uncommon to be landing with 20kts crosswind and 5kts tail wind on a 2300m runway because they are only using 34 for departures NE....🙄

Having said all that - I acknowledge that the arrival rates are determined the evening prior based on a forecast, so essentially the damage is done then.

It wasn’t uncommon to see 120 minute COBT delays today - not fun for anyone.

[Lead Balloon]

Two words:

1. Politics.

2. Money (to the extent that politics don't equal money).

Sorry, I meant one word: Safety.

[donkey767]

However going into Melbourne late at night it’s not uncommon to be landing with 20kts crosswind and 5kts tail wind on a 2300m runway because they are only using 34 for departures NE....🙄

Exactly the situation last night - 30min airborne delays around 8pm because they were running RW27 only when the wind was around 15kts from the north west. But hey, it’s world’s best practice in Australia, right?

On another note... anyone on here have any info why MEL is the only airport in Aus that seems to change their ATIS every 5-10min most days?

[ESP eclipse II]

[QUOTE]Exactly the situation last night - 30min airborne delays around 8pm because they were running RW27 only when the wind was around 15kts from the north west. But hey, it’s world’s best practice in Australia, right?

On another note... anyone on here have any info why MEL is the only airport in Aus that seems to change their ATIS every 5-10min most days?/QUOTE]

The large amount of ATIS changes is dictated by the Tower controllers and only by the Tower controllers. I suspect most of it is purely about "a-se" covering if something were to occur! Melbourne definitely holds a unique place in the world of aviation controlling on a few fronts.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

On another note... anyone on here have any info why MEL is the only airport in Aus that seems to change their ATIS every 5-10min most days?

Most likely because Melbourne changes its weather every 5-10 minutes most days.

[George Glass]

Hey, come on guys this is Australia. You should be used to it by now.
If you want a real chuckle ask for the Flow Controllers phone number ( they will give it to you if you say it is either that or an ASIR) and find out how they really make decisions. On the other hand you might not want to because its very, very sad.
And they really, really do think they are worlds best practice!
And its never, ever going to get any better.
Pathetic.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Its so funny, go to the Europe, NA or even asia and you can see they can accomodate far more traffic with usually worse weather conditions

[missy]

10.3.1 Selection of Runway in Use

10.3.1.1 Use of other than nominated runways. Controllers must not nominate a particular runway for use if an alternative runway is available, when:

(a) for runway conditions that are completely dry:

(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;

(ii) the downwind component, including gusts, exceeds 5 KT.

(b) for runway conditions that are not completely dry;

(i) the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT;

(ii) there is a downwind component.Sometimes the issue is the excessive crosswind across the bay, especially the 34R threshold wind. The wind along RWY 07/25 could be 260/18 however the threshold winds at RWY 34L and R might be say 260/30.

If you wish to operate to higher crosswind criteria then lobby CASA to get the rules changed.

The other issue that needs to be considered is the safe management of traffic. If you run higher acceptance rates then you end landing up to say 45 per hour for several hours on 34// and then say 75 aircraft of these aircraft become departures and the achieved rate on a single departure runway is about 25 (or less if there is a significant number of aircraft that "require" 34L for departure). Do the maths on that, and then add another 20-25 arrivals per hour into the mix.

Build RWY 25L, fill in the northern part of the moat, that is, south of TWY Lima.

[George Glass]

Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.

[VH-VIN]

Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.

Same is happing in NZ, I don't know how you airline guys keep sane!!! I suppose you just do what you have to and try not to think of madness of it all. I am sure in other 20 years it will come right and common sense will prevail but not for a while by the looks of it!!!

[shortshortz]

Same is happing in NZ, I don't know how you airline guys keep sane!!! I suppose you just do what you have to and try not to think of madness of it all. I am sure in other 20 years it will come right and common sense will prevail but not for a while by the looks of it!!!

NZ isn't really even close. There was a 288 minute COBT delay yesterday for some guys into YSSY and you would still then receive airborne delays. YMML average delay would be 5 minutes weekdays and with one RWY you'd be happy with only a 10min delay, taking off from YMLT and getting a 30 minute delay isn't abnormal. NZ pilots jump up and down if they're slowed down by a minute or two.

[tomuchwork]

What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?
17 kts is too much?
Weird way of doing things.


Has nothing to do with the pilots(as always normally), but when burocrats start making rules then it ends like this.

I was flying for long gone Ansett way back(it is actually nearly 19 years, my god, time flies), still remember some of the weird rules they had down under(hated the rules, loved the country). To much influence from their "parents", the brits I must clearly say. Not good, but hey, thats what they know.

Aviation got overregulated over the past(nearly) 2 decades, it did not became better(of course my opinion, as always, but that is what I see in direct comparison). Long time that I am back to Europe and as well here some aviation authorities just do not get it right - take some Italian airports as an example(other nations are not much better, but not to make this post to long lets go with (in)famous ENAC and some of it''s multiple stupid decissions) - there is for instance Treviso(LIPH) that can only accept a maximum of 15 kts x-wind(single runway outfit with usual landing on ILS07 and take off 25. No hills, mountains that affect the runway really. It is just like this. Are italian pilots generally bad? Nope. But their authority is not one of the most effective ones(let's take it like this to say it in a nice way). Treviso is not the only airport that has not so clever rules like that.

We could go on with airports in France, their attitude towards the #1 aviation language, ENGLISH, plus some other rules, UK, SPAIN....

Over the years I learned just to take a deep breath when they come up with something "new" to make my life easy and SAFE(the new magic word that makes everything right), usually it just causes delay. Good for a controller, he goes home anyway. Not so good for us pilots, we are stuck where we usually are, in the flightdeck till time runs out and it becomes game over. Normally they alway manage it that we just make it in time, still, the days become long due to "effective" rules. Just take this "sticking with filed flightlevel" bs that they are pulling here in Europe now. Like that makes any sense in a summer full of bad thunderstorms and the NEED for an effective ATC instead of one that is pulling out (idiotic) rules out of their hat. But that is "modern" aviation nowadays.

To make you fell better - it will just go worse. Overregulation tends to have that effect.

[VH-VIN]

NZ isn't really even close. There was a 288 minute COBT delay yesterday for some guys into YSSY and you would still then receive airborne delays. YMML average delay would be 5 minutes weekdays and with one RWY you'd be happy with only a 10min delay, taking off from YMLT and getting a 30 minute delay isn't abnormal. NZ pilots jump up and down if they're slowed down by a minute or two.

Glad I don't fly in Aussie anymore then!!!

[sunnySA]

Missy , you’ve hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. In Australia ATC rules can cost operators millions, trash the travel plans of tens of thousands of customers and drive operating crew slowly mad and the response is a shrug of the shoulders. And no sense of irony or absurdity. I’m glad I’m at the tail end of my career. Lord only knows how the systems going to look in 20 years time.
George, what are these particular or peculiar Australian ATC rules that you are referring to? Can you give the forum some specific examples ?

[Tankengine]

George, what are these particular or peculiar Australian ATC rules that you are referring to? Can you give the forum some specific examples ?
How about : mandating single runway ops at Sydney when the parallel runways are within the crosswind limits of pretty well every Airline aircraft in Australia?

[davidclarke]

Curious. If RWY25 had high speed taxiways would this increase the hourly movements? The investment would be warranted no?

[George Glass]

Sunny, see GreenGhost39’s post.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.

[Colonel_Klink]

NZ isn't really even close. There was a 288 minute COBT delay yesterday for some guys into YSSY and you would still then receive airborne delays.

I do not want to come across as ignorant - but that sort of comment does make me question the whole point of the Ground Delay Program. My experience shows me that on days when you get a 2 hour COBT delay, you do tend to get more holding than the standard traffic allowance.

I wonder what the airlines would prefer - having their flight depart on time and possibly get 90-120 minutes of airborne holding with the possibility of a diversion, or a 3 hour COBT delay still with 30 plus minutes airborne holding.

The two hours of airborne holding would result in less of a delay to that aircraft for the airline, but obviously at the cost of several Tonnes of fuel and the increased risk of a diversion.

[George Glass]

Colonel, the fact that you can quote numbers like that without the slightest hint of irony says it all. Is there anywhere else on the planet where this could be considered normal? Or is it really the massive snafu it appears to be?

[sunnySA]

Sunny, see GreenGhost39’s post.
The rule that causes the grief at Sydney is the forecast maximum crosswind on 16/34. ATC goes to single runway ops. when the crosswind is nowhere near aircraft operating limits. In Melbourne a 21 knot southerly with a 6 knot tailwind on 27 will mean 45 minutes COBT delay plus airborne holding for a CBR-MEL flight. Given the magnitude of the mayhem these rules cause on a routine basis isn’t it possible that the rules are a horses ar#e? Maybe its just me.
We all know that the crosswind is nowhere near the aircraft operating limits (but may well be beyond the first officers operating limits, but that's another story for another day) however the rule-set is from CASA. Lobby CASA to get the rules changed.

One thing that has changed in the last 20-25 years is the increased use of wind analysers that accurately display the instantaneous, mean (2 minute average) and peak winds. Wind back 20 years, single anemometer and wind socks, there is a LOT more data available to the TWR ATCs. Perhaps there needs to be more education around the wording "including gusts" and how this relates to the instantaneous, mean and peak winds, which winds are used for which purpose.

For information, the RWY 34L anemometer is owned (and maintained) by the BoM and is the one recorded on the METAR and SPECI. There will often be major differences between this wind and the ATIS wind (for obvious reasons).

Also, COBT doesn't mean no holding, it should mean significantly less holding than a "free for all", the current rules around COBT do need changing and ACDM should result in better outcomes. Recent feedback provided by Industry to Airservices has resulted in an adjustment to have more aircraft airborne to "keep pressure on the system" to maximise throughput but always having aircraft in the pipeline.

[George Glass]

Sunny, is there any chance that anybody in ATC is ever going to admit that the system is broken? It’s blindingly obvious to everybody at the operational level and to anybody who travels regularly up and down the east coast. It’s broken. It doesn’t work. It fails in its primary mission of moving people from point A to B. It is at its absolute limit now and unless something radical is done soon its all downhill from here.

[Maggie Island]

Sunny, is there any chance that anybody in ATC is ever going to admit that the system is broken? It’s blindingly obvious to everybody at the operational level and to anybody who travels regularly up and down the east coast. It’s broken. It doesn’t work. It fails in its primary mission of moving people from point A to B. It is at its absolute limit now and unless something radical is done soon its all downhill from here.

ATC don’t make the rules, at YSSY acceptance rates and noise abatement (largely dictated by the councils) are almost as much of a pain as ‘adverse’ wx. Most controllers would gladly tell you their gripes regarding the inherent inefficiencies of CASA (not that our whingeing will change anything:p)

[Outtahere]

Colonel, the fact that you can quote numbers like that without the slightest hint of irony says it all. Is there anywhere else on the planet where this could be considered normal? Or is it really the massive snafu it appears to be?

Yes, China. In their defense 90% of the countries airspace is rigidly controlled by the military & they deal with far more adverse weather than Australian ATC do. And they are a developing country. We have no such defense.

So yes, it is a massive snafu & an embarassment to those of us who ply the aviation trade outside Australia.

[Colonel_Klink]

And for a further update...

ATIS at 18:00 Sunday night has the wind as 250/10 and still only using one Runway.

The first NOTAM for YSSY says that aircraft can expect airborne holding of 40-60 minutes.

Something is significantly broken with the way things are done in this country....

[missy]

Curious. If RWY25 had high speed taxiways would this increase the hourly movements? The investment would be warranted no?

RWY 25 RET probably wouldn't be worth the investment. It would make for a very complex taxiway structure and would basically render TWY Hotel as redundant. TWY Hotel plays a pivotal role in the safe management of the ground traffic during 25 only operations, especially with the number of bays that push back directly onto TWY Golf (57, 58, 59, 60 and 61).

What would help is jets planning for and making TWY Yankee at speed (and then immediately turning onto TWY Hotel unless instructed otherwise). The number of domestics that slow and appear to thinking of using TWY Alpha as one exit is very high.
What would help is non-jets planning for and consistently making TWY Bravo.

There are lots of things that would make operating RWY 25 operations better, I'm sure everyone reading this post could make at least one suggestion.

[Tarq57]

I'd suggest that a big reason for the delays is because of the anti-noise lobby. Doesn't make for high efficiency when you are artificially limited as to the runways available.

[missy]

Let's have a look at recent reported activity on RWY 25. In this case, 8-May-2019 where the airport operated RWY 25 (mode 13) for more than 7 hours.
I don't have the specific times of the changes, just prior to 11am until around 6pm. If we look at the runway movements (not aerodrome movements as these figures exclude helicopters, runway crossings and tug movements) then 1100-1200 51, 1200-1300 49, 1300-1400 41, 1400-1500 50, 1500-1600 48, 1600-1700 49, 1700-1800 48.
Interestingly, 82 movements 0800-0900 and 80 movements 1900-2000.

If we look at the Development of the Long Term Operating Plan, Sabre Decision Technologies were engaged to model the potential capacity of each of the operating modes. Sabre undertook its assessment using the United States Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airport and Airspace simulation model (SIMMOD). This assessment involved quantifying the hourly capacity of each of the runway operation identified by the Task Force assuming existing airfield layout (runways, taxiways and terminal layout) and current operational procedures.

Sabre observed a sustained capacity of 33 operations per hour consisting of 22 arrivals and 11 departures. Peak observed capacity of 37 operations

Yet, Sydney ATC constantly operates close to 50 runway movements per hour. In the above example, 51, 49, 41, 50, 48, 49, 48 are well above the theoretical capacity of 37 operations.

Sydney TCU routinely FLOW the arrival sequence for 24 arrivals per hour. So if the TWR is able to do 1 for 1 then the movement rates should be 48 per hour. High number of RWY 34L departures then a lower departure rate will be achieved.
Fewer 34L departures and a good mix traffic (turbo-props and medium jets) and a good mix of outbound tracks, then a higher departure rate is achievable.

Interestingly the work done by Sabre was based on the rules that existed at the time, specifically crosswind criteria of 25 knots. This crosswind criteria was reduced (by a CASA) to 20 knots due to pressure from the Industry.

[George Glass]

Here’s a suggestion Missy. Don’t use RWY 25 unless you have to.
And quote as many statistics as you like, you can only polish a t#rd so much........

[missy]

I'd suggest that a big reason for the delays is because of the anti-noise lobby. Doesn't make for high efficiency when you are artificially limited as to the runways available.
Whilst the noise lobby does impact how the aerodrome is operated and artificially constrained (80 per hour), operating RWY 25 only is based on the runway selection criteria.

Specifically, ATC must not nominate a particular runway for use if an alternate runway is available when the cross-wind component, including gusts, exceeds 20 KT.

[missy]

Here’s a suggestion Missy. Don’t use RWY 25 unless you have to.
And quote as many statistics as you like, you can only polish a t#rd so much........
George, so you want the ATCs to lie about the wind and simply quote 20 knots!

[cessnapete]

Odd situation that ATC sets the PIC operational limits, 30kt Xwind should be routine in today’s airliners.
Although same situation some years ago, operating into Syd with B744. SYD ATC mandated the Holding fuel that we must carry, perhaps many hours before before planned arrival, not the operating PIC.
Then, when first contacting SYD en route you might get a message “expect 15 mins Holding at Parkes”. Advising ATC that we would reduce to Min Cruise and linearly absorb most or all of the delay, the reply would be that we would still get the delay whatever time we arrived at Parkes???

[George Glass]

No Missy. If its crosswind 25 Kts gusting 30 on 16R I want a clearance to land and I will decide whether or not it will work out at 200’. I know, bizarre idea. It’s called aviating.

[missy]

No Missy. If its crosswind 25 Kts gusting 30 on 16R I want a clearance to land and I will decide whether or not it will work out at 200’. I know, bizarre idea. It’s called aviating.

George, I understand where you're coming from as I have tried numerous times to have the following restriction changed - For jet arrivals, ATC will not nominate runways other than 16R or 34L when the runways are wet with a tailwind component" I believe that the acceptance of RWY 16L or 34R for arrival (or 07 or 25) with tailwind on a wet runway is a pilot responsibility.

The problem with what you are suggesting is 2 fold.
1. Increased possibility of a missed approach (probability given the probable wind shear and/or mechanical turbulence across short final from the international terminal and containers stack west of the approach)
2. Aircraft requiring RWY 25. Mixed operations involving parallel operations and other aircraft requiring RWY 25 for arrival are not safe and introduce delays and frustrations all around. Consider 25 arrivals versus RWY 34R operations. The increased complexity is difficult to manage.

The rule-set used to be 25 knots, it was changed to 20 knots, change it back to 25 knots or increase it to 30 knots. But as I and others have said, it's up to CASA. But if its 30 knots then you can't have a system that then allows an aircraft to then require RWY 07 or 25 and then there be with no delay to that aircraft but the whole system gets messed about.

The other option is build 25L or decommission 07/25 and turn it into a taxiway. This was suggested in 1994 when RWY 16L/34R was opened (25 years ago) but it didn't happen, perhaps this needs to be re-visited.

[George Glass]

You win. The public service eventually drains the will to live. Time to retire.

[Gear in transit]

decommission 07/25 and turn it into a taxiway.

Why decommission it? Or are you inferring removing the problem of reduced movements on 07/25 to force all ops onto 16/34?

[Ragnor]

Top it off they were giving out dispensations as if it were a 24hr airport last night.

[Maggie Island]

Top it off they were giving out dispensations as if it were a 24hr airport last night.

If we’re lucky the councils will see reason and abandon their peasant constituents and allow unrestricted H24 ops!

[Rated De]

It used to be called nation building.
Governments planned, funded and built infrastructure.

Now privatised monopolies abound. No airports built, no dams, immigration from (predominantly) third world running at three times OECD historical average. Overcrowded, polluted and it will get a lot worse once Transurban secures complete monopoly over toll roads.

[On Track]

What Rated De said. Neoliberal politics has completely stuffed up this country and especially the aviation industry.

[Ragnor]

If we’re lucky the councils will see reason and abandon their peasant constituents and allow unrestricted H24 ops!


I happily support this Sydney airport curfew, It’s the only stability I get with my roster. No sign on before 5am and most of the time 22:30.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Footage reportedly taken last Saturday. Good test of co-ordination skills with a satisfactory result ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-14/new-south-wales-weather-more-damaging-wind-on-way/11307568

[Rated De]

Footage reportedly taken last Saturday. Good test of co-ordination skills with a satisfactory result ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-14/new-south-wales-weather-more-damaging-wind-on-way/11307568

Aren't the passengers and airline management fortunate that the modern aircraft needs less maintenance and is far more automated such that pilots are almost obsolete.

[missy]

Why decommission it? Or are you inferring removing the problem of reduced movements on 07/25 to force all ops onto 16/34?
Yes, all ops on parallels

[krismiler]

With the general lowering of basic flying skills, lower cross wind limits is probably a good idea in case some automation dependent child of the magenta line gets put into a situation which exceeds his capabilities. Some people struggle with 10kts of cross wind let alone 20kts.

[Tankengine]

With the general lowering of basic flying skills, lower cross wind limits is probably a good idea in case some automation dependent child of the magenta line gets put into a situation which exceeds his capabilities. Some people struggle with 10kts of cross wind let alone 20kts.

Some people should not be professional pilots.

[Global Aviator]

Krismiler has nailed it!

[C441]

I am surprised there is not greater use of 16L for departures when there's a howling sou-wester blowing. Other than getting across 25, departures off 16L do not physically conflict with 25.
I'm sure most pilots would agree that a gusty 30 knot crosswind on take-off is considerable easier to manage than on landing.

[junior.VH-LFA]

With the general lowering of basic flying skills, lower cross wind limits is probably a good idea in case some automation dependent child of the magenta line gets put into a situation which exceeds THEIR capabilities. Some people struggle with 10kts of cross wind let alone 20kts.

Spare me.

No one checked to line by an RPT operator in Australia can't land at the crosswind limit of their aircraft.

[Lookleft]

Then I would guess that you haven't flown with a narrow body F/O with 300 total flying hours.

[Showa Cho]

I'm quite enjoying this discussion, however there's two scenarios at play here I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. The airlines and airservices have their planning hookup the night before, and based on the forecast, plan for 25 only ops at Sydney. The airlines go and manage their schedules from there. I think that's how it happens.

Now, the two options are to do this, or in the morning some time when the winds aren't as bad as forecast, ATC says 'Let's use the parallels now' and off they go. Would the airlines then get all angry because they have already cancelled flights, bumped pax, moved crews, managed airframes etc.based on the predicted use of 25 only?

Can anyone actually win in this situation? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[George Glass]

The mob I work for does simulator training for 40 knot crosswind, Captain only. Low time F/Os are not a problem. They will just have to sit there and clench their teeth. Heathrow gets on just fine with 2 parallels.

[Derfred]

QF 737 F/O's are trained to 40knots in the Sim.

[Maggie Island]

Heathrow gets on just fine with 2 parallels.


Funnily enough if SYD only had the parallels we’d never have the 07/25 issue!

[Lead Balloon]

... It fails in its primary mission of moving people from point A to B. It is at its absolute limit now and unless something radical is done soon its all downhill from here.
This is where you’re going wrong and why you’re so frustrated.

The primary mission of the system in Australia is to generate revenue for Airservices and generate profit for the owners of the airports. There is no financial incentive for Airservices or the airport owners to run it any differently, or to instal the runways or technology or to pushback on the politically-determined runway allocations at Sydney, so that the not unusual weather phenomena called “fog” and “wind” wouldn’t throw almost the entirety of the airways into chronic delay.

The frustration of and costs to punters is a mere externality and of little relevance when they continue to line up - sheep like - to pay for more.

Rated De nailed it @ #54.

[Sparrows.]

QF 737 F/O's are trained to 40knots in the Sim.

And then only be allowed to operate to 20kts in the aircraft.... :ugh::ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Footage reportedly taken last Saturday. Good test of co-ordination skills with a satisfactory result ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...n-way/11307568 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-14/new-south-wales-weather-more-damaging-wind-on-way/11307568)
Wires, pulleys and bellcranks=poetry in motion! :D :ok:

[George Glass]

Lead Balloon, you are, of course, absolutely correct. What was I thinking........

[Global Aviator]

And then only be allowed to operate to 20kts in the aircraft.... :ugh::ugh:

However should they face a very unlikely pilot incap and a 40kt XWind.......

[maggot]

However should they face a very unlikely pilot incap and a 40kt XWind.......
It's incredibly dumb policy, the first jet limits xwind they'll do (most likely) they'll be the captain.

[73qanda]

It is a dumb policy and leads to F/O’s thinking that there is something tricky about any crosswind above 20kts.

[Capt Fathom]

Wires, pulleys and bellcranks=poetry in motion!
Poetry in motion? More like a bush ballad! :E

[Sparrows.]

It is a dumb policy and leads to F/O’s thinking that there is something tricky about any crosswind above 20kts.

JQ Cadets even get an extra 50%. 30kt limited a year after checked to line. Most of the time with less than 1000hr TT, yes TT, not time on type.

[Transition Layer]

To be fair, they are flying an Airbus :}

[morno]

To be fair, they are flying an Airbus :}

Exactly! They’re a bitch to land in a crosswind. Nearly 4,000hrs on them and I still can’t quite get it right every time.

[LeadSled]

Exactly! They’re a bitch to land in a crosswind. Nearly 4,000hrs on them and I still can’t quite get it right every time.
morno,
Clearly, you do not understand.
Flying any Airbus is an exercise in democracy ----- and the computer has 51% of the votes!!
Tootle pip!!

[morno]

morno,
Clearly, you do not understand.
Flying any Airbus is an exercise in democracy ----- and the computer has 51% of the votes!!
Tootle pip!!

:D I’ll pay that one

[Lookleft]

Whereas a Boeing computer has 100% of the votes and will point you straight at the ground.

[Near Miss]

Before this becomes a complete Airbus vs Boeing thread, having flown both, I would rather be in the LHS of the Boeing, for at least I can see/feel what the FO is doing in the crosswind.

FWIW the company that I work has a FO crosswind limit of just 15kts. A mere 10kts if they are brand new. Insurance reasons is what I have been told.

[Slezy9]

FWIW the company that I work has a FO crosswind limit of just 15kts. A mere 10kts if they are brand new. Insurance reasons is what I have been told.

My company let’s FOs fly to CAT I minima and land in X-wind up to the aircraft limits once out of the first 100 hours on type. (Generally the guy in the right seat has 1000s of hours but.)

I was suprised to learn Qantas 737 FOs have these arbitrary limits. Do Q WB FOs have similar limits?

[Transition Layer]

My company let’s FOs fly to CAT I minima and land in X-wind up to the aircraft limits once out of the first 100 hours on type. (Generally the guy in the right seat has 1000s of hours but.)

I was suprised to learn Qantas 737 FOs have these arbitrary limits. Do Q WB FOs have similar limits?

Yep, it’s not fleet specific.

It’s a strange rule, because you may be in the RHS with 3000hrs on type and the guy/gal in the LHS may have less than 100hrs on type, but they are the ones doing the 40kt xwind landing cause that’s the policy. Don’t think the sim training for the endorsement is any different whether you have 3 bars or 4 bars on your shoulder.

[Capt Fathom]

I was suprised to learn Qantas 737 FOs have these arbitrary limits. Do Q WB FOs have similar limits?
It’s all to do with Insurance Premiums!

[LeadSled]

Whereas a Boeing computer has 100% of the votes and will point you straight at the ground.
Lookleft,
And what do you fly??
Are you genuinely qualified on ANY Boeing aircraft?? Or Airbus??
And as for the B737MAX, as the pilot of the aircraft Bali-Djakarta (evening before the Lionair loss) demonstrated, actioning the "Uncommanded Stab Trim" recall item in a timely fashion solved the problem.
You really can't help yourself, can you??
Tootle pip!!

PS: The last Commonwealth election results must have been very distressing for you??

[maggot]

It’s all to do with Insurance Premiums!

Doesn't sound right to me

So then Jetstar isn't affected by this too?

Also doesn't qf self insure?

A bizarre practice

[Lookleft]

And as for the B737MAX, as the pilot of the aircraft Bali-Djakarta (evening before the Lionair loss) demonstrated, actioning the "Uncommanded Stab Trim" recall item in a timely fashion solved the problem.

So are you suggesting that the FAA EASA and all the other aviation regulatory authorities have over reacted to the Stab Trim issue? Do you think that the grounding of the MAX into next year is just a global conspiracy against a design that only a select few of truly brilliant aviation minds understand? You probably think that the pilots of the Comet should have done a more thorough walk around.

[Maggie Island]

So are you suggesting that the FAA EASA and all the other aviation regulatory authorities have over reacted to the Stab Trim issue? Do you think that the grounding of the MAX into next year is just a global conspiracy against a design that only a select few of truly brilliant aviation minds understand? You probably think that the pilots of the Comet should have done a more thorough walk around.

I think all hes saying is that if those Lion pilots followed the memory item there would not have been any fatalities on that flight. Regardless of the MAXs flaws, that recall item would’ve saved lives that day.

[Lookleft]

There were two fatal accidents involving the MAX. The prelim of the Ethiopian accident stated that the crew did follow the memory item and it didn't resolve the problem of the flight control software pointing the nose of the aircraft straight at the ground. Boeing were able to claim it was crew problem after the first accident but not the second. Subsequent testing of the software has revealed further problems with the software and flaws with the entire setup.

[Tankengine]

I think all hes saying is that if those Lion pilots followed the memory item there would not have been any fatalities on that flight. Regardless of the MAXs flaws, that recall item would’ve saved lives that day.
That will explain why the aircraft is grounded for months. NOT!

[Angle of Attack]

Love the thread drift! Let’s get back to the original topic, SYD and MEL, both these airports are over capacity and will be a cluster for the next decade at least. South East QLD is leading the aviation pack at the moment, proper parallel runways next year in BNE, Wellcamp, Gold Coast now with an ILS, and Sunny coast with a real wide body runway ready next year. We are leading the pack and it will result in pulling massive numbers of international flights into QLD, as Sco Mo said “How good is QLD?” The fact is we are eating you southern states up like an old sausage. Sometimes just getting on with the job yields results and this a point of note.

[cessnapete]

I think all hes saying is that if those Lion pilots followed the memory item there would not have been any fatalities on that flight. Regardless of the MAXs flaws, that recall item would’ve saved lives that day.

Prior to MCAS activation in the ET accident, it didn't help the situation that the crew left TOGA power set until impact. Presumably the Stick Shaker activation at lift off distracted the crew such they forgot to control the speed /power. Light aircraft (short sector) and full power will cause big problems well before any MCAS activation.

[LeadSled]

So are you suggesting that the FAA EASA and all the other aviation regulatory authorities have over reacted to the Stab Trim issue? Do you think that the grounding of the MAX into next year is just a global conspiracy against a design that only a select few of truly brilliant aviation minds understand? You probably think that the pilots of the Comet should have done a more thorough walk around.
Lookleft,
You haven't answered the question: What Boeing or Airbus aircraft are you qualified on??

I strongly suggest you re-read the publicly available Max8 information from both accidents ---- with an open mind ---- as long as it is not open at both ends.

At no time have I suggested or intimated that there is/was not a software problem, and I have personal experience of what un-serviceable AoA sensors can do --- I am not an armchair critic in this situation.

Yes, there were problems, but in both cases, at least initially, the aeroplanes were flyable. Read the facts. Out of Bali, the crew "flew the aeroplane" as per the QRH non-normal procedures.

Indeed, a good friend of mine has just completed a B737 Classic type rating in US, and the problems of stalling out a stab, and how to handle it were pretty much the same as my first B707 endorsement, or my UK CAA and FAA type rating flight test for a B707/720 many years ago ---- some "issues" are not new ---- and in ALL cases, the stab trim cutout switches are in exactly the same place.

And just to stir the pot, what Comet losses were you referring to --- the takeoff "accidents" ---- or have you forgotten them, if you ever knew about them ---- and, if you were to delve into the final volume of the Inspectors report into the Comet in-flight breakups, you would find advice from Boeing (yes, Boeing) to DeHavilland forecasting the fatigue problems ---- did you know that??

Tootle pip!!

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Sorry about the thread drift, but our mate LOOKLEFT (a message about his politics, perhaps?) just has to attack me at every available opportunity.
I have no idea why.
Tootle pip!!

[Lookleft]

To paraphrase an old saying"Those with glass jaws should not throw punches". Back to the point of the thread. The problem is that cross wind landings are considered to be a risky maneuver by airline management and therefore have to have limits imposed on them. The 30kt crosswind exercise in the sim does not have the same feel as a gusty northerly on 27 in the middle of summer. Too many F/O's that I fly with treat it as a fly by numbers exercise by applying X amount of rudder with Y amount of aileron rather than look out the window and modify their control inputs to keep it tracking along the centreline. The various manufacturers manuals that I have studied during endorsement training describe the technique but it is like learning to play golf from a book. By the time you are flying a jet, cross wind technique should be second nature. This second nature however is very much influenced by the career path that got you to the jet in the first place. One of my favourite memories in over 30 years of professional flying is when I was completing my line training on the Saab with Kendell Airlines. The training Captain was more interested in showing how good he was and how useless I was. I was the PF onto 27 in Melbourne with a strong northerly blowing. On board was Don Kendell so it was his aeroplane that I was flying and as he was also a pilot, he would be judging my skills. He came into the crew room afterwards and said in that distinctive voice "Who did that landing?". When I told him it was me he said. "Well if you can land it like that in that wind you are doing alright." It is the same technique I have used in Metro's Boeings and Airbus.

[Slezy9]

The problem is that cross wind landings are considered to be a risky maneuver by airline management and therefore have to have limits imposed on them. The 30kt crosswind exercise in the sim does not have the same feel as a gusty northerly on 27 in the middle of summer. Too many F/O's that I fly with treat it as a fly by numbers exercise by applying X amount of rudder with Y amount of aileron rather than look out the window and modify their control inputs to keep it tracking along the centreline. .

So what's the solution? If these FOs are not allowed to ever land the aircraft above some arbitrary x-wind limit then how are they ever supposed to get better? The first time they get to land the aircraft at the limit will be when they are in the left seat, not ideal!! With more and more cadets / low hour guys and gals ending up in the right seat there has to be some give! (yes I agree the Sim doesn't adequately represent a gusty x-wind)

Thankfully my airline has no limits for FOs (for x-wind) other than the manufacturers limit.

[LeadSled]

To paraphrase an old saying"Those with glass jaws should not throw punches"..
Lookleft,
In your case, I would certainly agree.
Tootle pip!!

[73qanda]

Too many F/O's that I fly with treat it as a fly by numbers exercise by applying X amount of rudder with Y amount of aileron rather than look out the window and modify their control inputs to keep it tracking along the centreline.
That is my experience as well. I don’t think it’s their fault , they are the product of a training system that hammers the pilot out of them pretty quick if they let it. I would hazard a guess that around 50% of the younger pilots I fly with on the 737 are looking (at least momentarily) at their instruments while below 50ft on a normal landing. The question is why?

[Lookleft]

Agree 73qanda, the why is the training system that considers a cross wind landing a risk to the operation. On the Airbus it is also spreading to the use of manual thrust for landing where most pilots are actually apprehensive to turn the thing off. Certain aspects of flying require constant practice to a) get good at it in the first place and b) maintain that skill. It works for the training system to teach new pilots to fly by sim numbers. The assumption must be that by the time you reach the LHS you have attained the necessary skill through meditation and the ways of the Jedi.

[RAC/OPS]

Makes you wonder how pilots survive in the rest of the world where there are loads of parallel runways with no cross runway.

[Squawk7700]

What’s going on? Canselling MEL and CBR because it may get windy?
17 kts is too much?
Weird way of doing things.

What country are you from and how many fatal airline crashes have there been there?

How many have their been in Australia?

I rest my case your honour.

[Lead Balloon]

Wow: Who knew that so many overseas airline crash fatalities were caused by crosswinds!

Surely ‘their’ should be something that can be done about that!

[Capn Bloggs]

It must be after dinner-time. The enthusiastic amateurs have returned to they're keyboards...

[Lead Balloon]

Now now, Bloggs: You’d vowed never to respond to my amateur nonsense.

As a matter of interest, how many landing have you done as PIC of an RPT aircraft into YSSY?

I’m happy to admit that I’ve done zero.

You?

[PoppaJo]

That is my experience as well. I don’t think it’s their fault , they are the product of a training system that hammers the pilot out of them pretty quick if they let it. I would hazard a guess that around 50% of the younger pilots I fly with on the 737 are looking (at least momentarily) at their instruments while below 50ft on a normal landing. The question is why?
When I call eyes out the window you really see this play out. They cannot land the thing. It’s quite sad.

An eye opener when the next day I get the next young lad ex bush/prop/png guy who can’t get his eyes from out the window! Don’t forget to check your instruments matey!

One landed superb the other couldn’t even get centreline.

[Derfred]

Over several decades of 737 ops in Australia I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have landed in a crosswind exceeding 20 knots. Others may have seen worse. On the rare occasion I landed in a crosswind at aircraft limits, I was glad to have experienced it at 20 knots beforehand, so as to be confident in the technique.

My personal experience is that if you have experienced a few real crosswind landings at 20 knots, and pulled it off well, then you can now cope with 40 knots. The technique is the same, but the fear factor may affect you if you haven’t already perfected the 20 knot crosswind landing. Oh, and the Sim may be different.

So this leads me to the industry standard F/O limit of 20 knots.

If I was the CP, and didn’t have an insurance company telling me what I should or shouldn’t do, I would limit F/O’s by their experience, not their rank. For example, an F/O with X amount of sectors on type should not have restrictions on their environmental limits. Such an F/O will be a Captain soon, and should be practicing operating to that capacity under supervision.

I would much rather execute my first 40 knot crosswind landing as an F/O under supervision than as a new Captain with a newby in the RHS,

The current system sees to it that the latter will happen, sooner or later,

[ManaAdaSystem]

Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to start a discussion and then just leave the building.
Thanks to the gentleman who pointed out I’m not a native English speaker. I’m not, but clearly I’m not the only one with language issues.
On the day SYD could have been ops normal until midday or so. The airport is apparently managed poorly both inside and out. Immigration thinks there are only two nationalities in the world. Ozzies and Kiwis. I arrived with a nice express lane card in my hands. Picked the correct lane, or so I thought. The signs said Ozzies/Kiwis. A gentleman with a name that started with AL and who looked and spoke very much like somebody from the ME, pointed me to the other lane. The other lane was for Ozzies and Kiwis. All the lanes were for Ozzies and Kiwis.
Two lanes open. One manned by an angry gentleman who spent more time yelling «TURN OFF YOU PHONES», «CAN’T YOU READ THE SIGNS» than looking at passports. I took two steps to the right into a lane with a normal person behind the counter. Made it through without any problems, just a minor case of PTSD. Cured by lots of Scooners.
Love Barramundi, but it took a few tries.

Having a blast in Ozzieland!

[Eclan]

This guy MAS is well known on other forums for lousy attitude and thick posts. MAS, it's not nice to generalise... especially with your background. In my experience flying overseas the malaysians were some of the laziest, least skilled drivers but with some of the biggest attitudes. Xenophobes. One of their favourite things is to moan about Aus. The next favourite is to try to immigrate in! I hope you're only here on a crew duty, not sleazing your way in like those a/hole mates of yours deported to KL a few weeks ago after getting caught cheating the visa system. Sorry you didn't get the bites you hoped for but thanks for inadvertently triggering a constructive discussion "lah".

PS: with MAS's safety record in recent times you'd be the last one pointing fingers about anything aviation.

PPS: on your way out remember to get a clearance before diverting around weather.

[Dora-9]

This guy MAS is well known on other forums for lousy attitude and thick posts. MAS, it's not nice to generalise... especially with your background. In my experience flying overseas the malaysians were some of the laziest, least skilled drivers but with some of the biggest attitudes. Xenophobes. One of their favourite things is to moan about Aus. The next favourite is to try to immigrate in! I hope you're only here on a crew duty, not sleazing your way in like those a/hole mates of yours deported to KL a few weeks ago after getting caught cheating the visa system. Sorry you didn't get the bites you hoped for but thanks for inadvertently triggering a constructive discussion "lah".

PS: with MAS's safety record in recent times you'd be the last one pointing fingers about anything aviation.

PPS: on your way out remember to get a clearance before diverting around weather.https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (https://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=10529839)

Great post Eclan - and so very true!

[ManaAdaSystem]

This guy MAS is well known on other forums for lousy attitude and thick posts. MAS, it's not nice to generalise... especially with your background. In my experience flying overseas the malaysians were some of the laziest, least skilled drivers but with some of the biggest attitudes. Xenophobes. One of their favourite things is to moan about Aus. The next favourite is to try to immigrate in! I hope you're only here on a crew duty, not sleazing your way in like those a/hole mates of yours deported to KL a few weeks ago after getting caught cheating the visa system. Sorry you didn't get the bites you hoped for but thanks for inadvertently triggering a constructive discussion "lah".

PS: with MAS's safety record in recent times you'd be the last one pointing fingers about anything aviation.

PPS: on your way out remember to get a clearance before diverting around weather.

What exactly is my background???

The world is full of Ozzies who can’t find work in Australia. The attitude you show is something they often bring with them when they leave Australia. It’s called rasism. It’s not pretty.

Thanks to VA and QF who found a seat for me on my domestic travel here in Australia. I’m amazed the flights are so full with so many companies who operate the same sectors!

[Dora-9]

Aha, now we're playing the racism card.

Isn't this just a bit rich coming from a son of a country that in 1971 introduced it's New Economic Policy which in effect favoured employing Bumiputeras over Chinese and Indian residents. Isn't this discrimination against the latter two groups, arguably far more hard-working and competent, a form of institutionalized racism (against your own citizens)?

[RAC/OPS]

Aha, now we're playing the racism card.

Isn't this just a bit rich coming from a son of a country that in 1971 introduced it's New Economic Policy which in effect favoured employing Bumiputeras over Chinese and Indian residents. Isn't this discrimination against the latter two groups, arguably far more hard-working and competent, a form of institutionalized racism (against your own citizens)?

Not defending either side of this pointless argument but you can’t blame one person for his country’s misguided policies. It’s like playing the White Australia Policy card against you.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Not defending either side of this pointless argument but you can’t blame one person for his country’s misguided policies. It’s like playing the White Australia Policy card against you.


Thanks!
Yes, it’s pointless discussion, It’s weird when people I don’t know think they know everything about me. How do they know if I’m a Bumi, Chinese, Indian or orang putih?
Still waiting to find out what my background is.

Maybe it’s time to close this thread.

I love the way you guys annonuce the flight time to be approximately 1 hour and 32 minutes! 👍 Outstanding!

[Dora-9]

How do they know if I’m a Bumi, Chinese, Indian or orang putih?

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

But you're the one who played the inevitable fall-back position, the racist card, when facing criticism. Having flown/worked in Asia for many years, it's readily apparent the the greatest racists on the planet are Asians - towards other Asians.

Nothing to do with the thread I agree.

[Mhayli]

ATC dislike having aircraft holding as much as flight crew and passengers. Simply put, it means an extra aircraft in an en route or TMA controllers airspace that doesn't need to be there. But, just as I can't knock on the cockpit door and get a jump seat ride mid flight because it is against the rules, a controller can't nominate a runway with cross wind greater than 20kts, separate aircraft by less than 5 / 3 / 2.5 nm or have less than 500 / 1000 / 2000 / 3000 ft vertically between aircraft because it is against the rules. I have no doubt that aircraft and flight crew cross wind limitations are greater than those imposed by the rules. The rules aren't necessarily right or up to date and the system may well be broken, but the guys and girls on the other end of the microphone are doing their best within the constraints of the system. As has been stated, lobby CASA for rule changes (specifically MOS Part 172 10.3.1.1 for runway nomination and cross and tail wind components).

[ManaAdaSystem]

ATC dislike having aircraft holding as much as flight crew and passengers. Simply put, it means an extra aircraft in an en route or TMA controllers airspace that doesn't need to be there. But, just as I can't knock on the cockpit door and get a jump seat ride mid flight because it is against the rules, a controller can't nominate a runway with cross wind greater than 20kts, separate aircraft by less than 5 / 3 / 2.5 nm or have less than 500 / 1000 / 2000 (tel:500 / 1000 / 2000) / 3000 ft vertically between aircraft because it is against the rules. I have no doubt that aircraft and flight crew cross wind limitations are greater than those imposed by the rules. The rules aren't necessarily right or up to date and the system may well be broken, but the guys and girls on the other end of the microphone are doing their best within the constraints of the system. As has been stated, lobby CASA for rule changes (specifically MOS Part 172 10.3.1.1 for runway nomination and cross and tail wind components).

So we are back to the start of this conversation, Ozzies can’t fly when it’s windy. Or they can’t be trusted to land in a 21 knots crosswind.
A clear case of the tail wagging the dog, but if it’s fair dinkum, carry on with your wind straight down the runway landings.
20 kts is a joke.

[Lead Balloon]

“A clear case of the dog wagging the tail”?

[Chris2303]

“A clear case of the dog wagging the tail”?

Isn't that what is supposed to happen?

That's how my dogs do it!

[cessnapete]

Isn't that what is supposed to happen?

That's how my dogs do it!

i find it odd that non flight crew /ATC can tell the operating crew what limits they are able to fly. They used to try to tell us how much fuel to carry in to Sydney. These are all PIC decisions no one else.

[Okihara]

So we are back to the start of this conversation, Ozzies can’t fly when it’s windy. Or they can’t be trusted to land in a 21 knots crosswind.
A clear case of the dog wagging the tail, but if it’s fair dinkum, carry on with your wind straight down the runway landings.
20 kts is a joke.




Oh mate... I think I can speak for everyone on this thread when I say that we are all dying to be you at this stage. PLEEEASE! Please, have some mercy for the rest of us and just stop being so remarkably awesome for a second, can't you see how miserable you make us all feel? I mean, that's you, the textbook picture of the confident, high triple digit IQ, trustworthy and humble pilot everyone aspires to be and, on top, you nail all your crosswind landings. I'm sure your crosswind takeoffs are just as flawless too. Man, you should be an astronaut headed for Mars, not a mere pilot moving holiday-goers around. You are so absurdly legendary bright that you probably never need runway lighting. This is just too much, I thought you were a myth yet here you are, in the flesh. You deserve so much praise and recognition that your ATPL should be renamed Awesome Transport Pilot Licence. Actually I think you might well be the second-best pilot in the whole world mate. Keep at it like you are, your stick and rudder skills make us all dream!

PS. I forgot to mention: you're also a spelling champoin. Your NOTAMS would be poetry.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Oh mate... I think I can speak for everyone on this thread when I say that we are all dying to be you at this stage. PLEEEASE! Please, have some mercy for the rest of us and just stop being so remarkably awesome for a second, can't you see how miserable you make us all feel? I mean, that's you, the textbook picture of the confident, high triple digit IQ, trustworthy and humble pilot everyone aspires to be and, on top, you nail all your crosswind landings. I'm sure your crosswind takeoffs are just as flawless too. Man, you should be an astronaut headed for Mars, not a mere pilot moving holiday-goers around. You are so absurdly legendary bright that you probably never need runway lighting. This is just too much, I thought you were a myth yet here you are, in the flesh. You deserve so much praise and recognition that your ATPL should be renamed Awesome Transport Pilot Licence. Actually I think you might well be the second-best pilot in the whole world mate. Keep at it like you are, your stick and rudder skills make us all dream!

PS. I forgot to mention: you're also a spelling champoin. Your NOTAMS would be poetry.

Yes, I’m a champoin! 😀
This thread is not about me, but I’m confident in my abilities. 20 kts is not even a briefing item. The 737 can autoland in a crab with 20 kts crosswind.
What do you guys do when you only have one runway and 35 kts crosswind? Divert?
To land or not in a crosswind should be the commanders decision. Not the airport.

[morno]

Jesus christ you’re an idiot. If there’s no other runway as an option then of course they can land on it. Have you read anything about what has been written? It’s not up to the pilots to nominate the duty runway.

[Awol57]

Not only that, but ATC rules cater for all aircraft, not just RPT jets. 20+kts in most light aircraft is character building

[ManaAdaSystem]

Jesus christ you’re an idiot. If there’s no other runway as an option then of course they can land on it. Have you read anything about what has been written? It’s not up to the pilots to nominate the duty runway.


What’s with the namecalling and repeated attacks on me? If I call people idiots or aholes, I get moderated in a matter of minutes.
Yes, I get it, I’m just amazed that you as pilots and your airlines accept cancellations because of a light crosswind.
I have never seen this in any other areas of the world. Any limitations I have come from my airline and not ATC and then we are talking 40 kts or more at specific airports.
Let the pilots decide. Or run departures to the south and landings to the west.
Maybe it’s too much work for your ATC?

At least cessnapete understands what I’m saying. There is hope!

[Chris2303]

Why not go back to all over grass airfields then MAS can land into wind every time???

[73qanda]

It’s a funny time we are living in when we allow ourselves to be wound up by someone we have never met, commenting on something we have little control over. The comments may come from someone who we would quickly identify as a time waster in a face to face conversation yet we allocate brain space/ emotional energy to it online. Fly the plane, collect the dollars, buy your family a nice house in which to go through all of life’s normal ups and downs. Hopefully the kids will visit when you’re old. Don’t worry too much about an anonymous comment on a social media platform.

[ManaAdaSystem]

It’s a funny time we are living in when we allow ourselves to be wound up by someone we have never met, commenting on something we have little control over. The comments may come from someone who we would quickly identify as a time waster in a face to face conversation yet we allocate brain space/ emotional energy to it online. Fly the plane, collect the dollars, buy your family a nice house in which to go through all of life’s normal ups and downs. Hopefully the kids will visit when you’re old. Don’t worry too much about an anonymous comment on a social media platform.

Sad post. Some of us take an interest in what we are doing. Or why we get stuck for hours at an airport in chaos because of 17 kts wind.
You just wasted time not discussing the issues we are talking about. I agree 100%, don’t discuss me. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. It’s a waste of time.

Chris, I’m not the one ATC don’t trust to land in a 21 kts crosswind. It’s you and your friends.

[Capt Fathom]

Don’t feed the troll.

[ernestkgann]

In the Galapagos, for better but mostly worse,things have evolved differently!

[ManaAdaSystem]

In the Galapagos, for better but mostly worse,things have evolved differently!

Doesn’t stop them from spreading their backward ways across the world. As the truth. 😀

[Chris2303]

Try flying into NZWN when the wind is 340/40G50 V260-010

Even QF pilots have been known to be successful!

[ManaAdaSystem]

Try flying into NZWN when the wind is 340/40G50 V260-010

Even QF pilots have been known to be successful!

That’s probably because your Kiwi ATC let them land.
Wind down the runway is not the most difficult part of the job.
You Ozzies are probably so used to being told what you can and can’t do by your ATC that you think this is the way it should be.
Maybe it’s time to stand up for yourselves and tell them who is in charge of the aircraft? And what limitations YOU have?
Or maybe not, you are too busy attacking those who point out the system is broken.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

That’s probably because your Kiwi ATC let them land.
Wind down the runway is not the most difficult part of the job.
You Ozzies are probably so used to being told what you can and can’t do by your ATC that you think this is the way it should be.
Maybe it’s time to stand up for yourselves and tell them who is in charge of the aircraft? And what limitations YOU have?
Or maybe not, you are too busy attacking those who point out the system is broken.

What you don’t seem to understand, because you’re too busy casting slurs at other pilots and basking in the glow of your own perceived superiority, is this: ATC nominates the duty runway (not just here, but everywhere). If we feel the need, we’ll require a different runway - which happens not infrequently (contrary to what you claim above). The thing is, that will usually impose an additional delay due to not fitting in with the overall traffic flow. So you can turn up and demonstrate your awesomeness by requiring a runway with 35 kt crosswind (or maybe a 10 kt tailwind to give you a shorter taxi to the gate?), and your 30 minutes holding is now 60 minutes. The rest of us will try to operate in the framework we’re given, be less awesome than you, and arrive at the gate long before you do.

[JPJP]

Indeed, a good friend of mine has just completed a B737 Classic type rating in US, and the problems of stalling out a stab, and how to handle it were pretty much the same as my first B707 endorsement, or my UK CAA and FAA type rating flight test for a B707/720 many years ago ---- some "issues" are not new ---- and in ALL cases, the stab trim cutout switches are in exactly the same place.

Thats a really cool story about your friend and his classic type rating. Ask him what the fundamental difference is between the MAX’s Stab Trim Cutout switch’s, and every other 737 that’s ever been built ?

[Long Silence]

He doesn’t know ? That makes sense. Since Boeing didn’t tell anyone else either. Including pilots trained on the MAX.

Ask him what he’d do if the airspeed showed a stall, he then lost airspeed indications, the stick shaker went off, and the stab trim tried to drive the nose repeatedly into the ground. All at the same time. Whilst he has climb power set and he was at 1500 AGL. All of this with only a single piece of gibberish written by management, provided on an iPad to inform him. Not the months of information we have now, written in the blood of 350 dead passengers and crew.

[time for honest reflection. Not internet bravado and recalling the good old days of the 707]

Read the reports of the well informed test pilots that crashed the MAX repeatedly under the same conditions. In a simulator. When they knew what was going to happen.

Fkin armchair warriors.

(Yes, I’ve flown the Classic, the NG and the MAX)

[maggot]

Excellent post JPJP

[ManaAdaSystem]

What you don’t seem to understand, because you’re too busy casting slurs at other pilots and basking in the glow of your own perceived superiority, is this: ATC nominates the duty runway (not just here, but everywhere). If we feel the need, we’ll require a different runway - which happens not infrequently (contrary to what you claim above). The thing is, that will usually impose an additional delay due to not fitting in with the overall traffic flow. So you can turn up and demonstrate your awesomeness by requiring a runway with 35 kt crosswind (or maybe a 10 kt tailwind to give you a shorter taxi to the gate?), and your 30 minutes holding is now 60 minutes. The rest of us will try to operate in the framework we’re given, be less awesome than you, and arrive at the gate long before you do.





My friend, I don’t claim to be superior in any way. This discussion was started by me because I passed through SYD and the airport had multiple cancellations and hours of delays because ATC decided to go to single runway use based on a forecast and not the real weather. Until midday the crosswind stayed below 17 kts. The airlines got the bill for a decision that no pilots had a say in.
You can’t see the forest for all the trees!
This would not be acceptable anywhere else, but you all think this is the way it should be.

[Awol57]

I am curious how passing through Sydney airport you were able to assess the crosswind was less than 17kt until midday?

It's not really a discussion, people have told you the Australian rules, we don't get to pick and choose which ones to follow. Are they ideal? I think plenty would argue they aren't but they are what we have.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The airlines got the bill for a decision that no pilots had a say in.


What, the same pilots you’ve spent most of this thread having a crack at?


This would not be acceptable anywhere else, but you all think this is the way it should be.

Who are you to tell us what we all think?
I’m sure there are plenty of different opinions on how it should be, but ultimately it is what it is.

I look forward to hearing you requiring 34L next time it’s 240/40 and everyone else is banked up for 25.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I am curious how passing through Sydney airport you were able to assess the crosswind was less than 17kt until midday?

It's not really a discussion, people have told you the Australian rules, we don't get to pick and choose which ones to follow. Are they ideal? I think plenty would argue they aren't but they are what we have.

Really? Internet? Apps? Free WIFI at SYD airport?
Do you still go to the airport briefing office for your weather info????

[ManaAdaSystem]

What, the same pilots you’ve spent most of this thread having a crack at?




Who are you to tell us what we all think?
I’m sure there are plenty of different opinions on how it should be, but ultimately it is what it is.

I look forward to hearing you requiring 34L next time it’s 240/40 and everyone else is banked up for 25.



Who I am? I’m a customer who, along with a few thousand other customers, fell victim to a policy that nobody seems to know where came from, that nobody knows who implemented, but all defend strongly.
My guess is ATC on a power trip.
If you all are happy to waste time, fuel and money, and let your customers suffer because «it is what it is», then I’ll back out of this discussion.

Enjoy your delays and cancellations!

[Awol57]

Really? Internet? Apps? Free WIFI at SYD airport?
Do you still go to the airport briefing office for your weather info????

Haha ok good. Don't worry about the multiple sensors that ATC/airport have access to then. I am sure the BOM stuff was spot on for the whole aerodrome :ok:

[Lead Balloon]

Don’t worry, ManAdaSystem

Most Australians in the aviation ‘system’ know that Australia is widely known as the only third world aviation nation in which you can drink the tap water. They also know why: The third world airport infrastructure, ATC system, Bureau of Meteorology, ATSB, regulator and regulatory regime we’re ‘blessed’ with.

Unfortunately, some take the criticism personally. Others try to rationalise the reality away.

But some of us know the real cause and don’t blame individuals in the system or try to rationalise the reality away. The real cause is a busted political system that would also be the pride of a third world nation.

[ernestkgann]

There’s a strong belief in the Galapagos that Australian standard is world standard. Unfortunately because we are so remote and our market is small the investment in the industry through all levels, politics, regulatory, infra structure, technology has been tiny since the 50s. This was exacerbated with the cost recovery policies that arrived about the time the DOT transformed to the CAA and then CASA. The dividend of that period is the current weaknesses in the system characterised by policies and procedures like the one MAS has rattled on about (with a bit of stirring as well!).
Most contemporary Aussie aviators feel as if the system is world class, unfortunately it has become something of a sheltered workshop. Rather than looking inward, taking critique personally and assuming we are ‘best practice’ we should look outward at the bigger systems in the world that passed us by years ago.

[LeadSled]

There’s a strong belief in the Galapagos that Australian standard is world standard. Unfortunately because we are so remote and our market is small the investment in the industry through all levels, politics, regulatory, infra structure, technology has been tiny since the 50s. This was exacerbated with the cost recovery policies that arrived about the time the DOT transformed to the CAA and then CASA. The dividend of that period is the current weaknesses in the system characterised by policies and procedures like the one MAS has rattled on about (with a bit of stirring as well!).
Most contemporary Aussie aviators feel as if the system is world class, unfortunately it has become something of a sheltered workshop. Rather than looking inward, taking critique personally and assuming we are ‘best practice’ we should look outward at the bigger systems in the world that passed us by years ago.

ernestkgann,
Well said, it is so sad that I have to agree with you, but fact is fact, Lead Balloon's comments are also to the point.
It is not just the Department/CASA/AsA who are fooling themselves.
As a rather famous individual at ICAO, Dan Maurino said, quite some years ago now: "Australia has made a major contribution to ICAO, on the whole, aviation would be better off, had Australia not done so".
Tootle pip!!

[George Glass]

Friday, August 9.......

ATIS YSSY W 090741
RW​​​​​​Y: 25 F​OR ARR AND DEP........

WIND 280/20-40, XW 20 KTS RWY 25, XW MAX 35 KTS RWY 34L

He he he.......Here we go again.

[Lead Balloon]

I’m looking forward to when ManAdaSystem tries to fly on time in Australia when a capital city airport is beset with that very unusual weather phenomenon called “fog”.

Hopefully mankind will soon invent some technology and infrastructure to facilitate the timely movement and landing of aircraft despite “fog”. That way, “fog” in Sydney wouldn’t throw almost the entirety of the RPT schedule in the ‘J’ curve of Australia into chaos. If only such technology and infrastructure existed.

[ernestkgann]

I’m looking forward to when ManAdaSystem tries to fly on time in Australia when a capital city airport is beset with that very unusual weather phenomenon called “fog”.

Hopefully mankind will soon invent some technology and infrastructure to facilitate the timely movement and landing of aircraft despite “fog”. That way, “fog” in Sydney wouldn’t throw almost the entirety of the RPT schedule in the ‘J’ curve of Australia into chaos. If only such technology and infrastructure existed.

That technology may exist in other less progressed aviation systems but at least we know that we have excellent car parking facilities (although it comes at a cost) at all major Australian airports.

[Danny104]

Fog won’t be a problem for him. After holding for two hours one morning in Melbourne we asked ATC if any aircraft had got in. The reply was “we have had more than 20 missed approaches but two Malaysian aircraft have landed”. Maybe no one told them that it wasn’t a Cat III runway yet.

[Lead Balloon]

Words fail me. Don’t know whether to laugh or cry about that! Only in Australia...

[The name is Porter]

I think most pilots agree, it's only when you fly in another country's Air Traffic System you realise just how much of an aviation joke Australia is. The sad part about it is, those running aviation in Australia think they are the worlds best.

[Global Aviator]

Fog won’t be a problem for him. After holding for two hours one morning in Melbourne we asked ATC if any aircraft had got in. The reply was “we have had more than 20 missed approaches but two Malaysian aircraft have landed”. Maybe no one told them that it wasn’t a Cat III runway yet.



I have seen the same in Perth. Garuda miraculously had a clearing when everyone else missed and aircraft even turned back to the terminal that had been on the way out. Fog, what is this. Cat III 0/0, nah the fog did clear... :)

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The Airlines are being gouged for the privatised airport incompetence. As the fuel wasted does not affect the airports bottom line they don't see any point in building new runways. Would the fuel wasted each year pay for a new runway, I think so and maybe even a third. The Government needs to step in , use government bonds to build all the new runways and at the same time take 50% ownership of each Airport back .
Why did our Government sell so many monopoly assets , licences to print money . Australia is really a financial disappointment and is heading toward 3rd world status.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Fog won’t be a problem for him. After holding for two hours one morning in Melbourne we asked ATC if any aircraft had got in. The reply was “we have had more than 20 missed approaches but two Malaysian aircraft have landed”. Maybe no one told them that it wasn’t a Cat III runway yet.



May moons ago I was a copilot on an aircraft without autoland capability. We were inbound to an airport with thick fog. Cat I only. All morning departures unable to take off due fog.
Captain was hand flying. Not visual at minima. Runway in sight at less than 100 ft. Landed.
Captains nationality? Australian.
It happens in the best of families.

And before you ask why I did not intervene in any way?
A. He was flying like an ace.
B. I was young.
C. I thought fighting for the controls at low altitude was a bad idea.
D. The book said: The captain decides if a landing should be made.

He is retired long ago, maybe from life as well. Blue skies to you captain McM, wherever you are.

Surprised to find out that only MEL and PER have Cat III. I’m also surprised to hear you held for 2 hours! How much fuel do you guys fly with? If I fly to a Cat I airport that is below minima and with no sign of improvement, I stay on the ground.

[777Nine]

The Airlines are being gouged for the privatised airport incompetence. As the fuel wasted does not affect the airports bottom line they don't see any point in building new runways. Would the fuel wasted each year pay for a new runway, I think so and maybe even a third. The Government needs to step in , use government bonds to build all the new runways and at the same time take 50% ownership of each Airport back .
Why did our Government sell so many monopoly assets , licences to print money . Australia is really a financial disappointment and is heading toward 3rd world status.

First and foremost, the operator of Sydney airport only cares about one thing and one thing only: Profit. They run a business so their agenda is to make money by any means necessary. And when your asset is used by people that have no choice but to use it and their is no alternative, ka-ching.

Furthermore with regards to the curfew, no politician will commit political suicide and change the no aircraft noise laws. That being said, imagine if Sydney airport was open 24 hours and had no movement cap. The benefits that would be had for the economy and more importantly, opening up more destinations for leisure and business travellers alike because there would be more slots and more airlines could fly here.

What pisses me off is this narrow sighted view of not to change anything and yet we want to be taken seriously and claim Sydney is an 'international' city. No 24hr airport and the only things open 24hrs in this international City, are McDonalds and 7/11s.

We're behind the 8-ball and need to get with it. We can be better than this. Sorry for the thread drift!​​



​​​​​
​​​​​

[phildan89]

My guess is ATC on a power trip.


I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned time and time again in this thread, but I'll say it one more time. MATS specifically states that we can not nominate a runway for use when the crosswind exceeds 20kts. We can only nominate a runway exceeding that limit when:
1) required by noise abatement legislation;
2) An alternative runway does not exist;
3) A takeoff or landing, as applicable, is not possible on an alternative runway.

Unfortunately, an alternative runway exists in Sydney so the crossing runway it is!

ATC has their hands tied. If you want improvements, CASA are the people to lobby...

[Lead Balloon]

First and foremost, the operator of Sydney airport only cares about one thing and one thing only: Profit. They run a business so their agenda is to make money by any means necessary. And when your asset is used by people that have no choice but to use it and their is no alternative, ka-ching.

Furthermore with regards to the curfew, no politician will commit political suicide and change the no aircraft noise laws. That being said, imagine if Sydney airport was open 24 hours and had no movement cap. The benefits that would be had for the economy and more importantly, opening up more destinations for leisure and business travellers alike because there would be more slots and more airlines could fly here.

What pisses me off is this narrow sighted view of not to change anything and yet we want to be taken seriously and claim Sydney is an 'international' city. No 24hr airport and the only things open 24hrs in this international City, are McDonalds and 7/11s.

We're behind the 8-ball and need to get with it. We can be better than this. Sorry for the thread drift!​​



​​​​​
​​​​​


Your post is not "thread drift". Your post identifies one of the underlying primary causes of the problem.

Scooter: It's not private airport "incompetence". It's private airport owners doing very competently what business owners do. You're labouring under the misconception that the owners of airports are in the business of moving aircraft passengers effectively and efficiently in aircraft.

Phildan89 is correct, but CASA is just another tail being wagged by the dog.

[ManaAdaSystem]

https://2populartrend.com/passengers-stranded-after-sydney-storm-chaos/

The article even has a picure of a dark cloud! Scary stuff!

[George Glass]

Phildan89 is correct.
Solution?
Close RWY 25/07
Problem solved!