R44 Missing North of Montreal [Archive]

Hot and Hi

14th Jul 2019, 20:25

A far cheaper solution is the SPOT Messenger
The majority of gliders carry them and many GA aircraft. No certification required, just like mobile phones.
A slightly more expensive option is the Garmin Delorme unit which even allows you to send text messages via the Iridium network.
I am paranoid and carry one of each in my motorglider at all times flying all over remote areas of Australia.
Quite. You can’t be paranoid enough!

While the Garmin inReach device is more expensive than the Spot device, the picture may turn around when you take data subscription costs into consideration. For the Garmin, you find several third party Value added services (VAS) providers, offering a variety of flexible data plans available.

Garmin inReach doesn’t only allow to send free-text messages, but most importantly allows 2-way communication. You know whether your message was received, and your people can tell you that they will come out and help.

L’espoir fait vivre.

malabo

15th Jul 2019, 00:45

Kulwin Park

15th Jul 2019, 01:01

“Rescue” helicopter crashes (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/missing-father-son-savoura-helicopter-day-four-search-1.5211676)

looks like an EC130, wasn’t even in the bush. From the Facebook link I’d gathered that a number of “volunteers” were assisting with the search.

The aft crosstube on that 130 looks flatter / more spread than normal. Maybe it was a heavy landing and a rollover resultant from that?

SASless

15th Jul 2019, 01:01

Are there areas of excessive gravity up there?

Cylinder Head

15th Jul 2019, 08:55

See the attached map of our recent Pledge a Pint tour of the UK. The journey was live tracked by several devices so that base knew where we were at all times.

The following links will allow you look at any of these products which are reasonably priced.

https://explore.garmin.com/en-GB/inreach/

https://www.spidertracks.com/

Rock Seven | Truly global GPS tracking and messaging systems using Iridium satellite | RockAIR (http://www.rock7mobile.com/products-rockair)

Rock Seven | Truly global GPS tracking and messaging systems using Iridium satellite | RockSTAR (http://www.rock7mobile.com/products-rockstar)

https://www.iridium.com/products/iridium-go/

https://www.iridium.com/products/iridium-extreme-ptt/

Hope something fits the bill for those of you seeking this type of technology.

NB. I am not specifically recommending any of these products, nor do I have any commercial interest in selling them - merely suggesting solutions to the requirement.

fijdor

26th Jul 2019, 14:00

Aircraft found yesterday (July 25) in dense forest, pilot and son found dead at the site.

JD

GrayHorizonsHeli

26th Jul 2019, 18:23

sad result, but not unexpected at this point.
RIP and condolences to the families and friends.

albatross

2nd Apr 2021, 20:08

Interesting.https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19q0109/a19q0109.html

helicrazi

2nd Apr 2021, 20:15

Interesting.https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19q0109/a19q0109.html
cant get it to work?

gipsymagpie

2nd Apr 2021, 21:20

Whole TSB server is down

albatross

3rd Apr 2021, 00:02

Just found out about the server being down.
When I see it is back up I will post the news here.

Senior Pilot

3rd Apr 2021, 00:37

Just found out about the server being down.
When I see it is back up I will post the news here.

Another reason why we ask PPRuNers to cut and paste rather than the lazy option of posting a URL :ok:

jeepjeep

3rd Apr 2021, 02:14

Oh, that's a Canadian web site. It's early April so they have to periodically stoke the server to keep things warm enough to run.

SpyPilot

3rd Apr 2021, 07:32

We resent...excuse me please...resemble that remark.

albatross

3rd Apr 2021, 20:48

Site is back up.
https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19q0109/a19q0109.html

Sorry but the report is very long and I couldn’t cut and paste.
Also I was unaware of the “rule”.

jimjim1

4th Apr 2021, 01:35

Sorry but the report is very long and I couldn’t cut and paste.

Here is the report file uploaded to pprune. Not sure how it will present but here goes.

Edit - clicking on link downloads the file.

Arnie Madsen

4th Apr 2021, 04:18

The really really short version:

R44 ... outboard section of one blade delaminated and failed
Settled almost straight down through forest canopy ... evidence of low rotor rpm
Pilot found in his seat
Passenger about 200 feet away ... indicates initial survival
ELT was disarmed preventing early rescue.
Robinson's tap the blade musical not performed very often

HTML link

Air transportation safety investigation report A19Q0109 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada (tsb.gc.ca) (https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19q0109/a19q0109.html)

[email protected]

4th Apr 2021, 11:06

Has anyone sued Robinson for failing to make airworthy blades that last their service life?

Did Robinson replace faulty blades free of charge?

gulliBell

4th Apr 2021, 11:59

The new blade left the factory with an adhesive bond failure which progressed over time but was not detected by routine maintenance even though these blades were known to be prone to this fault. Quite incredible.

Hot and Hi

4th Apr 2021, 12:40

Has anyone sued Robinson for failing to make airworthy blades that last their service life?

Did Robinson replace faulty blades free of charge?

For many years, RHC gave a 50% discount in an attempt to accelerate the upgrade to the current dash-7 blades. If I remember correctly, a similar discount scheme was offered to incentivise operators to upgrade to bladder tanks before bladder tanks became mandatory.

Hot and Hi

4th Apr 2021, 13:31

Thanks JimJim for uploading the report, and to Arnie's for their good summary. A few points that come to mind, in no particular order:

The entire 40-page report is well worth the read.
Fly the aircraft to the site of the accident. The mishap pilot had time to kill the engine (in an attempt to 'diagnose' the excessive vibration problem) but lost RRPM in the process. Thereby was unable to even attempt an autorotation. So basically crashed with zero engine and zero rotor RPM.
Despite a similar high profile accident in the same area just three month ago where due to nil flight following or sat tracker (compounded by the usual ELT failure) it took seven days to locate the aircraft, this occurrence flight took off without flight following, no sat tracker and faulty ELT.
The pilot's medical had expired over a year before the accident (indicates attitudinal problems). Technically speaking, the pilot was not licensed.
Given the known design problems of earlier RHC blade, the a/c was still equipped with dash-2 blades (current blades are dash-7).
Blade delamination would have been visible before the accident flight and was big enough that it should have been detected by the pilot, had the mandatory daily visual inspection been carried out. The report found that that the pilot - despite knowing that they flew with old to-be-phased-out blades - didn't conduct this mandatory daily inspection.
Because the daily visual inspections were not done or recorded, the aircraft's airworthiness certificate was invalidated (indicates attitudinal attitude problem No 2).
The ELT Arm switch (at the ELT unit itself, not the remote test/activation switch in the cockpit), was found to be damaged. To prevent inadvertent change of that (typically rather inaccessible) switch, this switch has a locking mechanism. In order to move the switch, the switch normally has to be moved up (pulled out) to set it to another position. This also prevents the switch to move to the OFF position by the decelerating forces during a crash. Some ham-fisted person may have just forced the switch thereby breaking the locking mechanism. Since then the ELT Arm switch was free to move between its positions. A CT scan of the broken switch proved that it was moved several times between the OFF and the ARM position over time, after the locking mechanism had been broken. The broken switch problem was not detected or repaired during the periodic ELT maintenance. It was found that in its current state, the broken switch could be moved from the ARM to the OFF position by an acceleration force of just 1.8G (which is below the activation force that should activate the ELT's the G-switch - around 6G - and well below the over 16G forces that occurred during this crash).
The (initially) surviving pax activated the ELT with the remote switch in the cabin. But because the ELT was switched off at the unit itself, it didn't work. Anyway, we know that ELTs fail (for this or other reasons) in 2 out of 3 accidents.
The report describes over many pages how the lack of good crash position estimates can frustrate the SAR efforts, but fails to mention that carrying a (monitored) sat tracker would therefore be recommended.

aa777888

4th Apr 2021, 13:50

H&H has it right. 50% discount program. Don't remember the terms of the deal. While I did suffer through the same issues on my R44, I came late to that particular party and ran the -5's until the AD deadline. That worked out pretty well for me as it brought me the ship at a substantial discount and the timing was pretty good, with the blades calendaring out only 4 months after the replacement deadline, so I gained far more than I lost. I didn't mind doing the daily inspection or the record keeping that went along with it, and we tap tested per the US AD. Had to touch up the blade paint once as it was getting close to the bond line but that was no big deal either.

Unfortunately it is impossible to know if the owner was doing the proper inspections and easy to assume he was not. It is also impossible to know whether they would have made any difference, i.e. would the blade have passed the daily visual inspection anyway?

What is strange about this one is why was there a loss of rotor RPM? It was probably vibrating like crazy but apparently it wasn't flinging bits off (yet). Why was rotor RPM not maintained and an immediate landing accomplished? That's the real mystery. Or did I read the report wrong?

kansarasc

4th Apr 2021, 14:43

What about this ?
https://www.sportys.com/acr-resqlink-view-personal-locator-beacon.html?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgen=27&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping_Categories&creative=%7bAdId%7d&device=c&matchtype=&mrkgcl=596&acctid=700000001999345&dskeywordid=92700057486613682&lid=92700057486613682&ds_s_kwgid=58700005427561263&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000007407630&dsproductgroupid=961710354139&product_id=7992A&merchid=2857566&prodctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&locationid=9006943&creative=295428069994&targetid=aud-384841865437:pla-961710354139&campaignid=313100062&adgroupid=20046163822&gclid=CjwKCAjwx6WDBhBQEiwA_dP8rR0BJK0kGhtRsA2xwGa7F1Z_yod-h9i7gKN-umO7d7Oqx89A53v0shoCWMIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I heard mixed reviews about reliability of this device

JohnDixson

4th Apr 2021, 14:52

While speculating about why the engine might have been purposely shut down,.....or not, I re-read the report, looking for the calculated cockpit vibration levels, following the loss of the outer B blade at station 161. The report does not have any calculation of that estimated value. Was the ship 1P vibration ( both vertical and lateral ) such that the pilot inadvertently did that while intending something else? Was the environment such that the pilot was rendered virtually unable to do anything of consequence? I’d guess that the Robinson engineering folks did that calculation soon after notification.
The other aspect that occurred to me just after posting this a minute ago was that with large 1P levels, it is altogether possible for the pilot to aggravate the levels-a pilot induced ocscillation ( PIO ) on top of the unbalance caused disturbance. That sort of thing is dependent on a number of factors, but if the basic disturbance is below 6 hz, pilots can respond so as to increase the severity. Preventative measures to prevent PIO is a whole other subject and probably not relevant here.

After awhile, something eslse occurred to me regarding the pilots action in that vibration environment: was the pilot being bounced around so that he couldn’t read the Nr indictor if he wanted to.
I have a data point here. During the development of the UH-60 ( well before the fly-off part of the competition ) we were have vibration problems that were challenging our ability to get them ( there were variously caused issues ) resolved. In desperation ( true story ) we took set of S-61 blades, cut them down, modified the grips to fit the elastomeric head, balanced them on the whirl stand and flew them. Well, not so good: the speed maxed out at 137KIAS and the vibration levels were roughly the same. Then someone suggested, that to get a real baseline with the 61 blades, we should take all of the vibration fixes then on the prototype off the machine and fly it bare. I think at the time we had the stacked 3P and 5P bifilars, nose absorber, cabin absorber, and 50 lb fixed absorbers under each pilot seat, mounted on structure. All of that came off. How fast did we go? 20 kts paced forward speed, and the reason for stopping was that the vibration levels ( N/rev or 4P ) were such that the instrument panel disappeared in a blur-nothing was readable. Turns out we were done for quite a separate reason as well-we had blown by all of the GE T-700 engine vibration do not exceed limits.

gulliBell

4th Apr 2021, 15:15

i.e. would the blade have passed the daily visual inspection anyway?

The report discussed this. The delaminated skin would have been visible on pre-flight inspection.

[email protected]

4th Apr 2021, 16:33

I have had a chunk of blade tape bubble and cause horrendous vibration until it finally came off - I have also had a whole blade pocket detach from the spar, again nasty vibration and lots of noise - both occurred about 2/3 of the way to the tip but scary as hell.

What levels of drag and vibration on a 2-blade system and a delamination at the tip would be, one can only surmise but that extra drag would have decreased the Nr even if he had kept the engine going - without it running, perhaps because he panicked and assumed he had an engine problem, he had no chance of retaining Nr.

aa777888

4th Apr 2021, 16:58

The report discussed this. The delaminated skin would have been visible on pre-flight inspection.
Upon re-reading is see the section you are referring to. It's a shame the owner did not properly inspect his MRBs, then.

Not that it should need to, but owning -5 blades definitely has reinforced a desire to be meticulous about preflight inspections. When you are vertically challenged such as I :} you can't visualize the top of the blades when on the built in steps you use to check the main rotor head. You need a 10ft (3M) stepladder to do it right, which I have, and do.

aa777888

4th Apr 2021, 17:02

What levels of drag and vibration on a 2-blade system and a delamination at the tip would be, one can only surmise but that extra drag would have decreased the Nr even if he had kept the engine going - without it running, perhaps because he panicked and assumed he had an engine problem, he had no chance of retaining Nr.
Good point. Vibe levels were undoubtedly dramatic. I had a mag go bad in a way that shifted the timing. That was dramatic enough, but I never thought about securing the engine while it was still making power.

aa777888

4th Apr 2021, 17:37

What about this ?
https://www.sportys.com/acr-resqlink-view-personal-locator-beacon.html?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgen=27 (https://www.sportys.com/acr-resqlink-view-personal-locator-beacon.html?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgen=27&utm_source=google&utm _medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping_Categories&creative=%7bAdI d%7d&device=c&matchtype=&mrkgcl=596&acctid=700000001999345&d skeywordid=92700057486613682&lid=92700057486613682&ds_s_kwgi d=58700005427561263&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000007407630 &dsproductgroupid=961710354139&product_id=7992A&merchid=2857 566&prodctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&device=c &network=g&matchtype=&locationid=9006943&creative=2954280699 94&targetid=aud-384841865437)
I heard mixed reviews about reliability of this device
PLBs are an excellent rescue item and highly recommended. They operate in an identical fashion to an ELT (or an EPIRB) except that they are manually triggered. They are very reliable assuming you are in good enough shape to trigger them. Indeed, assuming they are on your person at the time, they are more likely to survive a crash than an ELT is. And any new PLB is going to have a built-in GPS receiver which will encode your exact position onto the 406MHz ELT signal. Most of the GA ELTs don't have this feature. I carry a PLB myself for all of these reasons and more. That's in addition to the 406 (non-GPS) ELT installed in my helicopter. Honestly, I should really move up to a satellite messenger like the Garmin inReach. It can perform all of the same functions as a top end, GPS-enabled PLB as well as provide 2-way satellite text messaging.

It's worth noting that this ELT failed because of, again, poor maintenance on the part of the MRO and the owner. Because of the broken lugs on the switch, broken prior to the crash per the report, it was unserviceable. Also, contrary to what the report says, if you look at the photo carefully you will see the outer jacket and shield of the coaxial cable have been pulled out of the antenna connector. The performance of the ELT would have been significantly degraded at the very least under those conditions.

I just recently went through the battery replacement cycle on my Kannad 406-AF ELT. The cost of having this done is a joke given that it's 10 minutes of shop time and about $50 worth of material. With the cost involved I gave serious though to moving up to a Kannad 406 Integra AF, which is less expensive than replacing the 406-AF and has a built in GPS receiver. But a careful study of the design, and a call to Kannad, confirmed that the GPS receiver in the Integra AF is only served by an internal GPS antenna. In other words, the GPS feature is useless in a metal skinned aircraft! :ugh: This sort of nonsense is typical in the ELT world.

Here's a discussion of why ELTs are not so good and why PLBs or satellite messaging devices are a better choice:

https://youtu.be/d1YjGLwfYSQ

Here's a textbook example of how a satellite messaging device can get you home in time for dinner:

https://youtu.be/pSiTpHNq-IA

I carry bug spray, too. It's important to be comfortable while waiting for your ride home ;)

JohnDixson

4th Apr 2021, 17:52

aa777888

4th Apr 2021, 20:25

Crab-good point re drag. With the departure of a healthy segment of blade, the Nr would upspeed. Does the Roninson have any sort of overspeed protection? or, is it possible the pilot saw the upspeed, thought overspeed and combined with the vibration made a bad choice?
No overspeed protection system. Not even a warning system other than the tach. Just the pilot's hands on the throttle and collective.

Hot and Hi

5th Apr 2021, 08:36

other than the tach. Just the pilot's hands on the throttle and collective.
Arguably that’s exactly where you will be looking in such a situation. So no warning lights needed.

[email protected]

5th Apr 2021, 09:08

With the departure of a healthy segment of blade, the Nr would upspeed. John, that would assume it completely detached rather than peeling back and creating extra drag

[email protected]

5th Apr 2021, 11:42

The 'cheap pilot bastard' from AVweb forgot that 406 beacons also transmit on 121.5 so you get the best of both worlds.

He also forgets how many false alerts there were when 121.5 PLBs were monitored by COSPAS / SARSAT, no-one moaned about going out looking for them then just as no-one moans about going out investigating 406 alerts.

Just buy a 406 ELT and get it mounted properly - AND carry a personal one.

Relying on your cell-phone is fine if there is a mast near you but otherwise is even less useful than a 121.5 beacon no-one is listening to. How many pilots would actually recognise the beacon signal as a distress one?

You have to be overdue and have search action initiated before the authorities start pinging cell phones so you could still be waiting quite a while.

As an ex-SAR pilot, I would have an aircraft ELT, a personal ELT (both 406) and carry my cell phone - guess what I do every day I go flying?

Be a 'cheap pilot bastard' by all means but don't come crying when you die alone in the woods because you didn't have a 406 beacon.

Hot and Hi

5th Apr 2021, 15:54

Crab, do you understand how sat trackers work?

JohnDixson

5th Apr 2021, 16:09

Sorry, Crab seems I misread the report wording. When I read “ broken “ I just assumed the huge centrifugal force would carry the outboard segment away.

[email protected]

5th Apr 2021, 17:23

Crab, do you understand how sat trackers work? yes thanks, and I know you can't home to them like you can with a 121.5 emitting 406 beacon. You also can't home to a 406 beacon because it isn't a constant transmission, just a burst transmission every 50-odd seconds or so - that's why they tx on 121.5 as well.

PLBs/ELTs on 406 don't need subscriptions and have better coverage than personal sat-trackers

aa777888

5th Apr 2021, 18:30

yes thanks, and I know you can't home to them like you can with a 121.5 emitting 406 beacon. You also can't home to a 406 beacon because it isn't a constant transmission, just a burst transmission every 50-odd seconds or so - that's why they tx on 121.5 as well.

PLBs/ELTs on 406 don't need subscriptions and have better coverage than personal sat-trackers
This sort of thing is actually my specialty. My main work is producing complex RF systems. There is some detail lacking here that it might be helpful to fill in.

As crab correctly states, the 121.5MHz signal is required for conventional (practically "classical" at this late date) homing, aka direction finding. There are some subtleties here associated with more complex equipment that could actually geolocate 406MHz bursts, but such capability is rarely found in a SAR operation.

However, and most important, there are two types of 406 beacons. The first only transmits an identifier that, if properly registered, identifies the aircraft specifically. This is a great help in resolving false alarms, but does not improve the satellite-based geolocation performance much above that provided by the older 121.5MHz-only ELTs. These 406MHz signals require many tens of minutes to sometimes hours to geolocate, the same as the old 121.5MHz signals. And geolocation accuracy is poor, typically resulting in a 4KM radius to search, again similar to the 121.5 beacons.

The second type of 406 beacon incorporates either an interface to an external positioning system, usually GPS, or an integral positioning system, again GPS. Such ELTs completely eliminate the requirement for homing. They transmit a precise position to the Cospas-Sarsat system, with accuracy of well inside a 100M radius, and do this within just a few minutes at most. This position is then relayed to SAR assets. They are thereby a huge step up from the non-GPS equipped or interfaced 406 beacons. Indeed, these days it is sheer folly to not be so equipped. And yet most aircraft ELTs in general aviation are of the older, non-GPS equipped 406MHz type.

As in much of aviation, regulatory aspects are cost drivers and prevent rapid innovation. Hence, as crab and I both have already suggested, obtaining a modern PLB, which will undoubtedly include a built-in GPS positioner, is of very high value.

This brings us to the statement above regarding "personal sat-trackers", more properly called "satellite communicators". While it is true that these do require a service plan similar to a mobile phone, you do get what you pay for. They provide functionality over and above PLB/ELT/EPIRB systems, most notably two-way text messaging and periodic tracking updates a la Spidertracks and other similar, commercial tracking services. With respect to their coverage they actually can perform better than the Cospas-Sarsat system. If you are down in a canyon or other steep territory, it is possible that the GEOSAR satellites will not be in your field of view. In such a case you have to wait for a MEOSAR or LEOSAR pass to see (have radiofrequency line of sight to) your beacon. That can sometimes take hours, depending on the present geometry of the Cospas-Sarsat satellites. The same is not true with satellite communicators (or the commercial sat-tracker systems). These all rely on either the Iridium or Globalstar constellations. Both of these systems use a great many satellites in low Earth orbit, and thus passes over steep terrain will occur much more frequently. When choosing between the two systems the only thing to consider is that there is no polar coverage for Globalstar, while Iridium has complete global coverage. Bottom line: commercial satellite communicators, in particular those using Iridium, and specifically the Garmin inReach products, are the gold standard for rescue communications and location, lacking only G-switch activation. The lowest priced plan in the US is about $140USD a year if you never send or receive any text messages or send any routing position reports.

Of course the best answer is to "get both". And carry other tools to get found fast and solve the last 100M problem, such as whistles, mirrors, lights, handheld aviation radios, etc.

aa777888

5th Apr 2021, 19:07

Sorry for the thread drift, but ELT functionality was a featured part of the accident report. There's no question that a lot of other very bad stuff lead up that point.

Robbiee

6th Apr 2021, 00:09

No overspeed protection system. Not even a warning system other than the tach. Just the pilot's hands on the throttle and collective.

Actually, according to a POH update I saw recently, there's now a high rpm warble type of audio warning. However, like the "full throttle light" I have yet to see one in an actual Robby.

blakmax

6th Apr 2021, 01:43

This report makes interesting reading from an adhesive bond failure forensics aspect. Probably one of the more important factors is the suggested lack of bond between the core and the rear of the spar. This bond is formed using an expanding foam adhesive that fills part of the gap between the core and the vertical face of the spar. An inadequate bond there has significant influence over the blade behaviour. That foam distributes shear loads from the core into the spar. Normally, the shear loads are not great, mainly because the adhesive shear strength should be orders of magnitude greater than the shear strength of the core itself. However, if that bond is ineffective, then the shear loads can only be transferred through the upper and lower blade skins placing peel stresses on the adhesive bond between the skins and the upper and lower faces of the spar. This may over time lead to fatigue damage in the spar to skin bonds. Given that the observed disbond in this joint on the lower skin occurs at about the middle of the region where the lack of foaming adhesive bond is reported, then this may be a significant contributing factor in this event.

In defence of RHC, it is impossible to inspect the bond between the core and the rear of the spar, either immediately after production or in subsequent service. One consequence of an absence of this bond would be a localised loss of torsional stiffness over the defective bond length, but even that would be difficult to measure.

I am surprised that -5 blades are still in service. I personally would suggest that trying to squeeze the last few hundred hours of life out of these old blades is false economy.

Regards

Blakmax

[email protected]

6th Apr 2021, 09:06

This is why thread drift is good because people do have areas of expertise that might not otherwise be uncovered if we just stick tightly to the thread theme.

Good post aa777888 - I was told that even with the newer 406 beacons, the important positional information is included in the second half of the transmission burst and that can sometimes be missed off or corrupted.

Classic (violet picture) homing is still essential in difficult terrain and when there are multiple beacons. I have homed to 243.0 and 121.5 transmissions in mountainous and forested terrain where 100m can make a huge difference to where you put the search teams.

The only problem with the sat-trackers is that you have to be conscious to use them, much like a personal ELT whereas a correctly installed aircraft ELT should Tx providing it survives the impact.

M32K - you are right but there is enough evidence in the report to show a lack of aviation professionalism or even self-preservation that seems all too common in the light helicopter owner-community, that is not to tar all with the same brush but we keep seeing common and very human failures in these type of accidents. Darwinism at work I suppose.

Arnie Madsen

6th Apr 2021, 09:22

For the life of me I could never comprehend why RHC continued with the problematic R22 style blades when they came out with the larger R44 machine

A wrap around skin over the spar would eliminate those de-bond issues once and for all. Many more square inches of adhesive surface , nothing to allow moisture to penetrate , no lifting edges exposed to 300+ mph airflow .

aa777888

6th Apr 2021, 13:57

Actually, according to a POH update I saw recently, there's now a high rpm warble type of audio warning. However, like the "full throttle light" I have yet to see one in an actual Robby.
Interesting! In further reading, it would appear that this is a feature of the new engine monitoring units (EMU) they are putting in R44s now. Thanks for pointing that out! And long overdue. It is beyond me why they did not also implement a power indicator function similar to the Cabri in the design of that unit as well. To answer my own question, perhaps because then it would become a primary flight control component and required additional certification.

aa777888

6th Apr 2021, 14:00

I am surprised that -5 blades are still in service. I personally would suggest that trying to squeeze the last few hundred hours of life out of these old blades is false economy.This accident occurred before the replacement deadline. And they were -2's, not -5's, not that it makes any practical difference as both were subject to the same AD. There shouldn't be any -2's or -5's flying anymore, but there probably are some in countries with weak aviation safety discipline.

212man

6th Apr 2021, 15:16

Crab, do you understand how sat trackers work?

I nearly spat my coffee out!

malabo

6th Apr 2021, 15:56

Sat tracking and relative value is influenced by where you work and what you do. All SAR professionals that I have dealt with in Canada are heavily in favour of it. Every company I have worked for in the past 10 years has sat-tracking. Anything I fly now either has sat-tracking or I bring my own. Given a choice between carrying a PLB and Sat tracking, I'll go sat-tracking every time. 406 vs 121.5 ELT? You're still in the lighting a campfire and sending smoke signals age of rescue, times change. With sat-tracking you'll be in easy 121.5 homing range, if not within 5meters. ELT's fail to work properly 60% of the time. If you are incapacitated you'll never get that PLB out of your bag, but the sat-tracker may just keep blipping out your location. I even give my passengers a spare tracker to keep in their pocket (would have helped the passenger in this crash).

SAR resources here now are also increasingly using cellular phone tech for triangulation and "last ping range" to focus on specific search areas. Always carry a cel phone, and never tell your passengers to turn theirs off, unlike airlines.

One more wealthy guy with his own helicopter that did not get the professionalism required to operate in the remote bush, where you can't just land in a field by a highway and call Uber. And sat-tracking isn't only for the wealthy: 2 minute unlimited tracking all year for less than a tank of fuel, trackers for 1/4 of that. Darwin.

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7th Apr 2021, 12:03

All fair comments Malabo but you have to reach the private owner or 'cheap pilot bastard' as referred to in the AVweb video - they appear to be the ones who will baulk at spending the money and doing things properly - ironically they are the ones most likely to need assistance when it all goes wrong.

I have spent a big chunk of my career rescuing, or sadly recovering the bodies of, people who didn't think it would happen to them - some just unlucky but plenty just foolhardy or ignorant of the dangers - this guy seems typical of this mindset.

Whilst the coverage from the Iridium satellites is impressive, your tracker still needs to have a clear view of the sky to see them so not infallible. I would have a belt and braces 406 beacon as well.

aa777888

7th Apr 2021, 14:14

Whilst the coverage from the Iridium satellites is impressive, your tracker still needs to have a clear view of the sky to see them so not infallible. I would have a belt and braces 406 beacon as well.406 beacons also need a clear view of the sky. Actually, they need a clearer view than that required by Iridium and Globalstar based devices. Re-read my post on this above.

There is absolutely nothing substandard about the Iridium and Globalstar based devices except for the lack of a G-switch. Other than that in most ways they are superior to 406MHz devices. Again the best solution is to have both.

[email protected]

7th Apr 2021, 16:19

Again the best solution is to have both. Agreed .

Hot and Hi

7th Apr 2021, 19:16

Whilst the coverage from the Iridium satellites is impressive, your tracker still needs to have a clear view of the sky to see them so not infallible.

The difference is that the tracker shows the track to the accident site even if - for one or the other reason - it stopped working after the crash. So it still served its purpose even if it died in the crash.

Whereby the ELT is silent until the crash happens, and then only works - for one or the other reason - in 1/3 of the cases.

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7th Apr 2021, 21:05

Won't argue with that - as a rescuer you want as many ways as possible of finding your missing person/aircraft.

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8th Apr 2021, 06:44

aa777888

8th Apr 2021, 14:20

What I'd like to clarify when we are talking about the efficacy of the sat trackers is - are we talking about one installed on the aircraft with an external aerial or are we talking about a personal one stuffed into a pocket?
I've been talking about the pocket-size variety, but have briefly mentioned more complex equipment, the most typical example perhaps being the Spidertracks brand.

Let me also preface my response by I am assuming that a pocket size unit is not buried in some ridiculous place, but perhaps in a shirt or sleeve pocket.

I should imagine the signal is somewhat different and therefore the tracking resolution varies.
This is a complex question that divides itself into three parts.

Part 1: GNSS positioning accuracy (I write GNSS because some of these units utilize more than just the GPS constellation. For instance many of the more expensive Garmin units use both GPS and Galileo).

GNSS positioning accuracy is affected by many factors. However, in this case we are only concerned with how many satellites the unit can see simultaneously. More is better because a) it can make more measurements, and b) it can choose more measurements with more favorable geometries. To use a very loose analogy that may be familiar to you, think more LOBs, and LOBs that have better spacing.

Certainly an external antenna will be able to have a direct view of more satellites than one in cabin. Nevertheless, because there are now so very many GNSS satellites in orbit, it makes very little difference in practice. We are talking maybe a 10 or 20M difference, at most, if even that much. Once on the ground, experience has shown that externally mounted antennas fare poorly in crashes, so there's another difference to consider.

Part 2: Iridium link resilience

Again, it's a similar answer to Part 1, but in this case it's a question of if any updates are delayed or missed. There are normally only 1 to 3 Iridium satellites in view at any given time. In addition, in the cases where there is only a single Iridium satellite in view it tends to be at a high angle in the sky. This definitely favors an external antenna. However, if the pocket sized device is in, say, the chest pocket of the pilot, and the helicopter is of a typical civilian nature with a large forward bubble windscreen, it's not that big of a difference.

Part 3: position update rate

With an inReach or similar product they only offer a 2 min. update rate, and that's an average because of "Part 2" effects. This is primarily driven by battery life, but also because more messages cost more. With something like Spidertracks, you can pay (quite a bit) extra for 30 second update rates. Again, that's an average because Iridium short message service completion times vary.

Of the three parts of the problem, this last part would make the biggest difference, of course. But this matters only if there is no active beacon or tracker signal emanating from the accident site.

Interestingly, I would be willing to bet a beer or two that most Spidertracks installations do not use an external antenna. These units tend to get installed with internal antennas in the area of the chin bubble or instrument panel in order to avoid the paperwork and expense of external aircraft modifications. We've got a transient 206 in the hangar like that right now. However, I could not tell you what sort of update rates most Spidertracks (or similar service) users typically pay for.

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8th Apr 2021, 21:36

Good info, thanks aa777888:ok:

Hot and Hi

9th Apr 2021, 17:29

I agree with a78 that the tracking interval is the single most critical parameter. I use 1-min position updates on the inReach.

Wasn’t aware that Garmin (as a service provider) didn’t offer that. I buy my Iridium sat subscription from a 3rd party VAS provider (Global Safetrack Systems) who also do server-based flight following, exception reporting (“deadman alerts”) and escalation management.

[email protected]

9th Apr 2021, 17:37

Hot and HI - presumably yours is a commercial operation rather than a private one like this crash.

Hot and Hi

10th Apr 2021, 07:29

The underlying satellite communication technology is the same for most products (spider, inReach, etc): it’s the Iridium sat network.

inReach is most suited for the pilot who owns the devise (both commercial pilots and private operators, like the mishap pilot in this case). As it can be carried between aircraft, and the owner’s tracking and messaging activities determine the data cost.

My VAS provider offers different contracts, some where you can activate the service only when you need it (which again makes it affordable for private operators who don’t fly every day).

Spidertrack lends itself to fleet operators and has great fleet management functions. As the fleet operator pays the (sat data) bills, they had to artificially limit the texting feature to “base”. (They found that bored fix wing pilots would text all night with their girl friends - via satellite on company expense...)

[email protected]

10th Apr 2021, 09:05

From the Garmin site, it looks like it costs less than many people spend on their mobile phone every month and the handsets are much cheaper than an i-phone:ok:

aa777888

10th Apr 2021, 11:11

And you can charge then with all the same stuff you have for your mobile phone, solar chargers, whatever, so no need to double up on that stuff. They are truly a cut above PLBs. But...if you forget to charge it all bets are off. On the other hand, people find them as addicting as cell phones, so they are highly motivated to keep them "fed and watered". Super popular in the US among backcountry adventurers of all types. You know they are popular when Garmin buys the original manufacturer, which was Delorme, and then proceeds to add more inReach-enabled devices to its line up every year.

H&H thanks for that clue as to your service provider. A quick review of their offerings has me intrigued by their inReach equivalent device, the "A*LIVE" (https://www.protegear.com/products-data-plans/protegear-a-live/). I'm particularly keen on their use of the uBlox chipset that processes three out of the four major GNSS systems and how it also integrates a cellular radio. These are noteworthy improvements. Lots more plan options than through Garmin as well :ok: