View Full Version : Can a class rating instructor teach expired jar ppl

6th Jul 2019, 11:04
Have been given conflicting advice so figured Id try here just out of curiosity.

PPL with expired SEP rating and expired JAR license.
Can a CRI teach towards rating renewal by skills test?


6th Jul 2019, 17:28
The only item that requires renewal is the SEP class rating, and that is what a CRI with SEP privileges can teach for, The JAA licence cannot be renewed, it can only be converted to an EASA lifetime licence for which you will require a valid Class rating and medical.

The important thing is that a renewal can only be conducted at an ATO or DTO not by a stand alone CRI or FI.

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jul 2019, 20:16
My understanding matches Whopity's. I've done it as a CRI, but within an ATO.


6th Jul 2019, 20:45
It was an ATO that initially assigned one of their CRI’s - advised to renew SEP, do paperwork to cover RT, then send off all together for license with rating. Have the medical already.
Then after one flight and checking paperwork, said CRI couldn’t teach on an unconverted expired JAR license, had to be a full FI because it’s a license lapse not a rating lapse.

Incidentally I have a lapsed IMC. Do you know if I’ll be able to carry it over to the EASA license incase I want to renew at a later date? Or is it gone now there’s an IR(R)? I’m doing a bit of catching up......

(thanks for the helpful replies btw)

6th Jul 2019, 21:52
I would agree with your ATO that as your JAA licence has lapsed you do not have a licence. An FI is therefore required for your training. You are required to undertake a course of training for your SEPL as prescribed by the ATO HOT/CFI. This can go from zero hours to whatever is decided. Regarding RT, if you have held an RT licence in the past then there is nothing you need do for this other than complete the EASA licence application form correctly. Make sure you tick the request for the RT privileges box for it to be included in you new licence.

There is no such thing as an IR(R) but it is the only way the IMC rating can be entered onto the EASA licence. Until you renew the IMC(r) it will be entered on the back of the new licence in the lapsed rating section. (make sure this is done). Also make sure you tick the box for a national PPL licence. the IMC(r) will be included, using its proper name, on this licence.

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jul 2019, 22:37
From CAA's website here (my bold)...

Please note that you must have a current and valid EASA part-MED medical certificate of the appropriate level (with medical records held by the CAA); a current and valid language proficiency level acceptable to the CAA and potentially current and valid type or class ratings appropriate to the privileges of the licence you wish to convert to.

Refer to CAP 1441 (https://www.caa.co.uk/cap1441) for further information regarding medical declaration.

Step 1: application form, using the online conversion form (https://apply.caa.co.uk/CAAPortal/terms-and-conditions.htm;jsessionid=8-VN9zGfk+r3-CZ8YScDsIqt?formCode=PCO) or application form SRG 1104 (https://www.caa.co.uk/srg1104).
Holders of professional licences can apply using e-Licensing (https://www.caa.co.uk/elicensing) for the conversion of a JAR/UK, CPL or ATPL. They can also apply for the addition of the aerobatic, banner and sailplane towing ratings using e-Licensing.

Step 2: proof of identity, using a certified copy of one of: passport; EU photographic driving licence; EU identity card.
Step 3: copies of your current licence. We require a certified copy of the Certificate of Tests page or Certificate of Revalidation page of your current licence.
Step 4: proof of meeting requirements. We require a copy of your current medical certificate and proof of your language proficiency
Step 5: payment, made by BACS, cheque, cash or card. More detailed information can be downloaded.

The above requirements are the same regardless of whether your licence is current or has lapsed.

You can also convert as part of another application. When you apply for a licensing change such as the issue or renewal of a rating, you must apply to convert to an EASA licence at the same time by including the additional application form and conversion fee. Conversion may be compulsory depending on the type of licence and type of application.

Compulsory conversion will occur with the following actions if you hold a JAR licence:

Renewing your licence or changing the details on your licence
Applying for issue of an EASA rating
Renewing or revalidating an EASA rating
Applying for a new language proficiency level to be printed on your licence

Please send your completed application form and supporting documentation to the following address:

Shared Service Centre
Licensing and Assessment
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex RH6 0YR

Alternatively, you can submit your application by email to [email protected]

If I read this argument correctly, and this lapsed licence versus lapsed rating argument holds water, you'd appear to be okay if you renew the licence without a rating (is that possible? this seems to suggest so), then do the rating second, but have a problem if you try to do them together.

Which if true, is really rather silly, but seems to present a solution.


7th Jul 2019, 08:06
But then, when an Examiner completes the rating renewal, the licence would have to be re-issued again at a cost of 92.

7th Jul 2019, 10:20
What Whopity said.

No refresher training is required for the re-issue of the licence, only for renewal of the SEP class rating and this may be done by a CRI, provided the amount of training is determined by the HT of a DTO or ATO. By the way, renewal is by proficiency check, not skill test.

Interestingly, while confirming this, I noticed that the Aircrew Regulation requires competent authorities to have replaced all JAR licences with Part-FCL licences by 8 April 2018 at the latest. I wonder if that's one of the myriad findings made against the UK CAA by EASA.

7th Jul 2019, 13:03
Thanks for all the answers - seems theres differences of opinion even here...

I guess if ATOs feel a CRI cant teach on an expired license, they probably shouldnt assign one to someone with a 7 year lapsed rating before clarifying license situation.....

Anyway, Ill have an FI at my alternate ATO (although they thought a CRI was OK), so hopefully no further setbacks in my retraining (lost a whole week of time Id allotted to retraining sorting this out).

Not sure Ill have the impetus/finances to retake the IMC test, as I imagine Id need a fair bit of retraining to do some aspects of it (probably the flying bit would be OK, but not the holds etc) but good to know I have the option. Bit confused about why Id end up with two licenses (EASA and national), but Ive never really enjoyed all the paperwork/bureaucracy of aviation - for a mere PPL it mostly seems unfathomable (to instructors/examiners maybe it all makes sense!)

Fingers crossed Ill have my rating back soon, and be flying again....

7th Jul 2019, 16:43
From the Regulation:

FCL.905.CRI CRI — Privileges and conditions
(a) The privileges of a CRI are to instruct for:
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for single-pilot aeroplanes,
except for single-pilot high performance complex aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by
the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;

Renewal of a Class rating can only occur if the candidate holds a Class Rating, which means they are a qualified pilot. Any training may therefore be conducted by a CRI or FI. The status of the licence is irrelevant as all that is required to have it reissued is paperwork.

19th Aug 2019, 18:07
Just wanted to say thanks for the answers and help here - renewing was a much more drawn out process than Id planned (mostly due to this CRI thing and the knock on of lack of instructor availability) but I finally got my rating and new EASA license.

Time to plan some flying.....

20th Aug 2019, 08:53
If I could ask one last thing - if I sent an expired JAR license to the CAA for conversion, along with my SEP proficiency pass and English language proficiency form, what the should the cost have been? I was charged 170 plus postage.