Light aircraft crash Leigh Creek

[Desert Flower]

A light aircraft crashed north of the YLEC airfield just on last light this evening. Report of 2 entrapments. At this stage I don't know the type of aircraft or the registration.

DF.

[Cloudee]

Light plane crash near Leigh CreekThe Advertiseran hour ago
A light plane has crashed about 1km from the airport at Leigh Creek, in SA’s north.It’s believed two people have sustained injuries.

Ambulances are at the scene.

Peter Thompson, from the Leigh Creek Caravan Park, told The Sunday Mail, he had seen a small plane flying over the town.

“It was a bit of a distance away, it looked like a light aircraft, I can see red and blue flashing lights out at the air strip,” Mr Thompson said.

[Desert Flower]

Unfortunately the news is not good. Nothing left of aircraft & 2 deceased. The aircraft was in company with at least one other aircraft. They were having trouble getting the lights on, & I had been communicating with the pilot of the one that crashed. Someone did manage to get the lights on, unsure who it was. My husband went out there to activate them but he said he could see they were on before he got there so he turned around & came home.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

Aircraft was a Brumby.

DF.

[Squawk7700]

Last light was around 555pm if I’m not mistaken and there was reports this was at 620pm. I’m just imagining if they were running late and not equipped for NVFR on a black night (most of the time up there) waiting for runway lights to activate. Very bad situation with a terrible outcome.

[Cloudee]

More info here. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-07/light-aircraft-crashes-near-leigh-creek-in-sa-far-north/11286108

[machtuk]

Oh that's dreadful -:(
Is it me or do others feel a little kick in the guts when we read that fellow aviators have made their last flight?
I only hope that something comes out of this tragedy that others can learn from -:(

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From the above reference - Re 'A temporary air exclusion zone with a one-kilometre radius has been established around the scene.'

I wonder what the circumstances are to establish a 'air exclusion zone'?

How would an overflying aircraft affect the evidence on the ground?
To deter 'ambulance chasers' I can understand, but, having been directly and indirectly involved in a few aircraft accidents over the years, I have not experienced this before.

Any other ideas?

[Squawk7700]

Nil wind conditions I calculate had them landing on sunset. Tragic outcome for what could have been a greater than expected headwind.

[Cloudee]

From the above reference - Re 'A temporary air exclusion zone with a one-kilometre radius has been established around the scene.'

I wonder what the circumstances are to establish a 'air exclusion zone'?

How would an overflying aircraft affect the evidence on the ground?
To deter 'ambulance chasers' I can understand, but, having been directly and indirectly involved in a few aircraft accidents over the years, I have not experienced this before.

Any other ideas?
The exclusion zone is only up to 1000ft so I’d guess it’s to keep the media helicopters from getting too close. It gives the pilots a clear guide when pushed to get closer by the reporters and camera operators. Might also be to keep drones away.

[kaz3g]

The exclusion zone is only up to 1000ft so I’d guess it’s to keep the media helicopters from getting too close. It gives the pilots a clear guide when pushed to get closer by the reporters and camera operators. Might also be to keep drones away.

More likely to keep aircraft way from the drone.

[kaz3g]

Aircraft was a Brumby.

DF.

What happened to the reported other aircraft DF?

[Cloudee]

More likely to keep aircraft way from the drone.
Yes, the investigators would be using drones these days I suppose.

[Capt Fathom]

Aircraft was a Brumby
Now that there is an oxymoron!

[Checklist Charlie]

'air exclusion zone'Methinks somebody has seen "top Gun" too many times and remembered what sounded like 'flyer talk" even though they don't know what it might mean.

CC

[industry insider]

Sadly, one could drive a bus through the holes in the Swiss Cheese of this one and similar accidents.

[On eyre]

Now that there is an oxymoron!



What are you implying Capt Fathom ?

[CaptainMidnight]

"Air Exclusion Zone" is a common police term.
"Temporary Restricted Area" is the aviation term for same thing.

Not uncommon for one to be declared for aircraft crashes and other major incidents, particularly where fatalities are involved. Helicopter downwash can disturb evidence and present a hazard - particularly biohazard - to the ground parties, aside from the annoyance presented to them doing a difficult job.

If the media have half decent lenses on their cameras, the small area should not present an issue.

Edit: Per ERSA, Leigh Creek has very specific requirements for night VFR ops.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Tks Mr Cloudee and Kaz,

Ah yes the drones....the 'new' aerial photo vehicle.

Tks Gents...….or Gentesses...just in case....
Cheers

[Desert Flower]

Last light was around 555pm if I’m not mistaken and there was reports this was at 620pm. I’m just imagining if they were running late and not equipped for NVFR on a black night (most of the time up there) waiting for runway lights to activate. Very bad situation with a terrible outcome.

Yes last light was 5.55PM. I'm not sure what time it was when I started speaking with the pilot, however I'm guessing it would have been around that time or maybe a bit after. He was flying around for a good ten minutes at least before my son who I had just handed the radio to as I turned to go back inside said oh s**t mum he's just declared a mayday. My CFS/MFS pager went off at 18.27PM with details of the incident. But the thing is the lights WERE on, as witnessed by my husband who drove part way out to the airport & also by my son who could see the beacon flash over the top of the hills.

[Desert Flower]

Nil wind conditions I calculate had them landing on sunset. Tragic outcome for what could have been a greater than expected headwind.

They left YWMC at 4PM. I know someone who flies a Jabiru & he reckons it's 148 miles from YWMC to YLEC & should have taken 1&1/2 hours - which means he should have arrived here at around 5:30PM unless he went sightseeing on the way. Conditions on the ground were virtually calm - however I know that might not be the case in flight.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

Oh that's dreadful -:(
Is it me or do others feel a little kick in the guts when we read that fellow aviators have made their last flight?
I only hope that something comes out of this tragedy that others can learn from -:(

I felt more than a little kick in the guts knowing I was the last person to speak to him. Maybe I should have just shut up & let him get on with it, but I doubt whether it would have altered the outcome.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

What happened to the reported other aircraft DF?

It had already landed. Presumably it was them that got the lights on.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

What are you implying Capt Fathom ?



I think he means (like our friend BH) that he doesn't classify those types as aircraft.

DF.

[Cloudee]

According to the local news, the female passenger in the crash aircraft was the wife of the pilot of the other aircraft and had changed aircraft at William Creek on a whim.

With todays navigation equipment, even in a RAAus aircraft, once you are in the cruise you know to the minute when you will arrive at your destination. If that is after last light the correct decision is clear. Hopefully the surviving pilot will shed some light on what happened so we can all learn from it.

[Square Bear]

]I felt more than a little kick in the guts knowing I was the last person to speak to him. Maybe I should have just shut up & let him get on with it, but I doubt whether it would have altered the outcome[/i].

I remember a time that a VFR pilot up in the Strait's got caught out in IMC conditions..... if it wasn't for the pilot who calmly kept advising said pilot until regaining VFR (quite some time) it very likely would not have had the successful outcome it did.

You have to give it a go, you did, but sadly sometimes it just doesn't work.

As always, just a tragic and sad event.

[Squawk7700]

I’ll never forget chatting to a chap and his wife at Temora one afternoon at a flying event. Later that afternoon they took off for Cootamundra with nowhere near enough time remaining before last light... and they didn’t make it there. I often wonder to this day why they did that. It’s not like they didn’t have a gps or a watch.

[Obidiah]

Leigh Creek PAL has been problematic for well over a year, most of my arrivals result in orbiting over the top repeatedly trying to get them on and often someone on the ground has to turn them on. If the pilot and or aircraft were not rated or equipped for NVFR he would have no doubt had rising anxiety with a late arrival and little daylight remaining. A read of the ERSA NVFR procedures for YLEC would have likely ramped this up considerably for him and with the lights now not activating the stress levels could have been extreme. Of course this is all speculation, he may well have been a seasoned night pilot and was happily waiting overhead above LSALT and had an entirely unrelated other issue unfold. Either way there are now decent folk who have had the world ripped apart, all very sad.

[On eyre]

I think he means (like our friend BH) that he doesn't classify those types as aircraft.

DF.

i think I might have to disagree with BH on this one as another friend has a Brumby and it might be an exception to BH’s classification.

[mostlytossas]

If he declared a May day as stated perhaps he ran out of fuel waiting for the lights to go on?

[Desert Flower]

Leigh Creek PAL has been problematic for well over a year, most of my arrivals result in orbiting over the top repeatedly trying to get them on and often someone on the ground has to turn them on. If the pilot and or aircraft were not rated or equipped for NVFR he would have no doubt had rising anxiety with a late arrival and little daylight remaining. A read of the ERSA NVFR procedures for YLEC would have likely ramped this up considerably for him and with the lights now not activating the stress levels could have been extreme. Of course this is all speculation, he may well have been a seasoned night pilot and was happily waiting overhead above LSALT and had an entirely unrelated other issue unfold. Either way there are now decent folk who have had the world ripped apart, all very sad.

Obidiah, as I stated before - the lights were definitely on. Witnessed by my husband who drove part way there ( & who is usually the person that has to go out there & turn them on for you & also do roo runs because the ARO can't be contacted after hours) & also by my son who could see the beacon flash over the top of the hills from our house which is 5km north.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

i think I might have to disagree with BH on this one as another friend has a Brumby and it might be an exception to BH’s classification.

Good luck with that! When I told him the vet from Wallaroo had bought a plane he asked me what type & when I said a Jabiru his reply was I thought you said he bought a b****y plane!

DF.

[Desert Flower]

If he declared a May day as stated perhaps he ran out of fuel waiting for the lights to go on?

The fact that there was no post impact fire & according to a SAPOL officer no smell of fuel around the wreckage would certainly seem to indicate that. However as I've said before - the lights were definitely on. It baffles me why it happened.

DF.

[On eyre]

Good luck with that! When I told him the vet from Wallaroo had bought a plane he asked me what type & when I said a Jabiru his reply was I thought you said he bought a b****y plane!

DF.

Wasn’t talking about Jabiru - IMHO the Brumby is a completely different kettle of fish 😳

[cowl flaps]

If he declared a May day as stated perhaps he ran out of fuel waiting for the lights to go on?
Not very likely.
If they left YWMC at 4PM to fly a 148 mile leg to YLEC,- which Desert F states should have taken 1.5 hours, they should have had
plenty of go juice left. They refueled at YWMC and I'm assuming they took on full fuel.

[On eyre]

Not very likely.
If they left YWMC at 4PM to fly a 148 mile leg to YLEC,- which Desert F states should have taken 1.5 hours, they should have had
plenty of go juice left. They refueled at YWMC and I'm assuming they took on full fuel.

Might be wrong assumption too noting probable fuel price differential ?

[Desert Flower]

Wasn’t talking about Jabiru - IMHO the Brumby is a completely different kettle of fish 😳

It's still an ultralight - & in his books they're not aeroplanes.

DF.

[On eyre]

It's still an ultralight - & in his books they're not aeroplanes.

DF.

I will discuss it with hm next week 👍

[Desert Flower]

Not very likely.
If they left YWMC at 4PM to fly a 148 mile leg to YLEC,- which Desert F states should have taken 1.5 hours, they should have had
plenty of go juice left. They refueled at YWMC and I'm assuming they took on full fuel.

It should have taken him 1.5 hours, but given that he departed YWMC at 4PM & didn't arrive here until last light which was at 5.55PM then perhaps he didn't have full fuel.

DF.

[cowl flaps]

It should have taken him 1.5 hours, but given that he departed YWMC at 4PM & didn't arrive here until last light which was at 5.55PM then perhaps he didn't have full fuel.

DF.
Yeah,- I just tried to find the media article regarding the fuel, and it's not there anymore.

[cowl flaps]

The images I've just seen shows there was no fire. Not much left of the aircraft. Quite sad.

[mostlytossas]

wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have full fuel out of WMC due cost of it there. I have been to both WMC and LCK many times and the latter is substantially cheaper than the former. About a year ago was $3 odd / lt so wouldn't be any cheaper now. Plus limited supplies at times out there too. Common practice to just tske enough plus reserves to get to next refuelling point.

[YPJT]

The frustrating thing I found last year flying from Carrapateena over to Leigh Ck in the dark was that the PAALC does not give a confirmation response upon activation. Common problem with the older units and something I asked to be raised st the MOS139 review. The only clue I had that the lights were activated before my arrival was the white beacon which I could see from about 30nm.
gives weight to the argument of having a responsible person on the ground to manually turn the lights on.

[Squawk7700]

wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have full fuel out of WMC due cost of it there. I have been to both WMC and LCK many times and the latter is substantially cheaper than the former. About a year ago was $3 odd / lt so wouldn't be any cheaper now. Plus limited supplies at times out there too. Common practice to just tske enough plus reserves to get to next refuelling point.

Empty weight ~370kg. Full fuel would be overweight for sure if there was any decent baggage and equipment on board.

[Desert Flower]

Yeah,- I just tried to find the media article regarding the fuel, and it's not there anymore.

Is this the bit you were looking for? "The Advertiser understands they had been staying at Marree and flew over Lake Eyre before refuelling at William Creek."

DF.

[Desert Flower]

The frustrating thing I found last year flying from Carrapateena over to Leigh Ck in the dark was that the PAALC does not give a confirmation response upon activation. Common problem with the older units and something I asked to be raised st the MOS139 review. The only clue I had that the lights were activated before my arrival was the white beacon which I could see from about 30nm.
gives weight to the argument of having a responsible person on the ground to manually turn the lights on.

In light of (no pun intended) your concerns about the PAALC & also those of Obidiah then clearly something has to be done to rectify the problem.

DF.

[Desert Flower]

Just watched a segment on the Today Show about the crash, & they're putting the time at 6:20PM. That pretty much ties in with the pager message I got at 6:27PM because I hadn't long got back inside before it went off.

DF.

[poteroo]

Empty weight ~370kg. Full fuel would be overweight for sure if there was any decent baggage and equipment on board.

Yes - with the full fuel load of 130L, it would likely be over, but what if they only loaded fuel to bring it up to MTOW? MTOW = 600 kg, probable BEW = 370, and lets assume the pilot was 90 kg and pax 60 kg, and they had 20 kgs extras in back. ZFW = 540.

So, based on what my identical Brumby 610 requires, you could then fit 60 kgs of fuel into it = 80L. Divide this by an average burn of 18LPH for a 90-95 KTAS cruise, and you should have an endurance of 270 mins ex William Creek. For a distance of 148nm, based on an average cruise of 90 kts, the required cruise time is 1:39 for a fuel consumption of 30L. In the prevailing 'westerley' wx, a Brumby 610 was more likely to achieve 100+ on that track. By my calcs, there could have been as much as 50L in the tanks - always provided that they left William Creek with a max allowable fuel load.

It's likely there are many lessons to be re-learned from this accident. I hope that RAAus determine all immediately relevant factors, and informs the pilot community as soon as they are able.

[KRviator]

It's likely there are many lessons to be re-learned from this accident. I hope that RAAus determine all immediately relevant factors, and informs the pilot community as soon as they are able.Probably not...They're too busy handing out their members private details to airfield operators...

RAAus seem to have the mindset that they know what is important to learn from an accident and only disclose that, if they say anything at all...

[zanthrus]

Why were they flying so close to last light or after it? RAAus aircraft are allowed to fly day VFR only regardless what equipment or lights are fitted.

[Squawk7700]

Probably not...They're too busy handing out their members private details to airfield operators...

RAAus seem to have the mindset that they know what is important to learn from an accident and only disclose that, if they say anything at all...

The swipe about the landing fees is a back-handed comment that has no bearing on this discussion.

RAAus don’t have the legislative powers, unlimited government funds or the staff to provide full analysis of the incidents. They also don’t have the protection from the act around information disclosure. They assist the police with the investigation.. have you ever tried to get information from the police about car crashes and what caused them??

They would if they could, but the simple fact remains that they can’t.

Pilots make mistakes, they are only human. In this case, prevention and improved training may have been the better course of action rather than injecting valuable funds into crash analysis.

Nobody has come up with a new way to crash an aircraft in the last 50 years, so we know what causes crashes; it’s just a matter of educating pilots into making better planning and operational decisions.

[Squawk7700]

Why were they flying so close to last light or after it? RAAus aircraft are allowed to fly day VFR only regardless what equipment or lights are fitted.

The exact same thing could have happened to a GA registered aircraft. The aircraft registration has nothing to do with the outcome.

[Sunfish]

Agree with Squawk.

[KRviator]

The swipe about the landing fees is a back-handed comment that has no bearing on this discussion.Only partially correct...Yes, an indirect swipe at RAAus management, but...If RAAus were more concerned with their members wellbeing, instead of selling their details, RAAus would put more emphasis into accident mitigation, even if only using overseas reports as an example. Excerpts from AC43.13 in Sport Pilot, synopses from overseas accidents, 'Rulebook review' column-inches on a regular basis, and we might - and I stress might - not have what appears to be another RAAus pilot, in another RAAus registered aircraft spearing in after last light.

It is all well and good to say that "this could have happened to a GA pilot" and yes, you are correct, it could have. It didn't. But after that idiot left Temora for Coota in a trike after last light, we have another apparently similar prang in relatively quick succession. Beyond the bloke in the R44 up north that made the ATSB reports, I'm not aware of any similar GA accidents recently. Given the relative proportion of RAAus to GA one can only wonder why that is?

[machtuk]

EVERY single plane crash is human error in one form or another, do we learn from each one? Nope, that's the saddest part:-(
I've always said it's too easy to get a pilots certificate in any of it's forms, we pay for that 'easy' access but it's still a personnel choice to push the envelope!
I feel bad for the innocent women here, she had zero control over her life once they left the ground:-) RIP. As for the pilot? we will never know sadly:-(

[Sunfish]

You would need to account for levels of activity before anyone can make comparisons of GA and RAA accident rates.

Then there is the question of certified vs. uncertified aircraft.

Deal with those before making wild statements about the RAA.

Then there is the question of the Aristocratic principle. It is easier for a complete idiot to buy a trike - by definition the idiot can’t make enough money to buy a Bonanza. So what do you expect to have the higher accident rate? Unfortunately I have recent tragic experience of this in action.

A corollary to that is that if you make flying expensive enough, there will be fewer accidents of any sort.

I fail to see any factual base to statements like “GA is safer”, etc. etc.


I don’t think RAA pilots value their lives any less than GA pilots and I cannot think of any training difference that would automatically result in a higher accident rate. As Squawk implied , the basics are pretty simple.

To put that another way, I do not consider my training as a GA pilot makes me somehow safer than a similarly motivated RAA pilot.

[Squawk7700]

Only partially correct...Yes, an indirect swipe at RAAus management, but...If RAAus were more concerned with their members wellbeing, instead of selling their details, RAAus would put more emphasis into accident mitigation, even if only using overseas reports as an example. Excerpts from AC43.13 in Sport Pilot, synopses from overseas accidents, 'Rulebook review' column-inches on a regular basis, and we might - and I stress might - not have what appears to be another RAAus pilot, in another RAAus registered aircraft spearing in after last light.

It is all well and good to say that "this could have happened to a GA pilot" and yes, you are correct, it could have. It didn't. But after that idiot left Temora for Coota in a trike after last light, we have another apparently similar prang in relatively quick succession. Beyond the bloke in the R44 up north that made the ATSB reports, I'm not aware of any similar GA accidents recently.

I fail to see how RAAus providing contact details to airport owners to collect landing fees has any bearing whatsoever on this accident or others. If anything, the collection of fees may assist airport operators in providing better equipment for their visiting pilots like AFRU, papi, pal and the like.

But after that idiot left Temora for Coota in a trike after last light, we have another apparently similar prang in relatively quick succession.

That was in April 2012, some 6 plus years ago.

Given the relative proportion of RAAus to GA one can only wonder why that is?

Can you tell I what those proportions are and comparison of hours flown?

[Desert Flower]

wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have full fuel out of WMC due cost of it there. I have been to both WMC and LCK many times and the latter is substantially cheaper than the former. About a year ago was $3 odd / lt so wouldn't be any cheaper now. Plus limited supplies at times out there too. Common practice to just tske enough plus reserves to get to next refuelling point.

Just watched a 7news video where it said he bought $50.00 worth of "petrol" at YWMC. Now if it was $3.00 per litre that's 16 litres!!! Apparently he also picked up fuel at YMRE before that but quantity unknown

DF.

[Squawk7700]

The aircraft is pictured in here complete with photo of the dash on page 36. Looks to have a Dynon or similar.

https://issuu.com/raaus/docs/sportpilot_oct18_final_web/1?ff

[mostlytossas]

I only fly GA aircraft so don't know much about RAA type other than look at a few. From what I can see from that booklet the Brumby does not appear to have a landing light. Also does it have 2 tanks or just 1 behind the seats like some of them. Reason I ask is if just 1 the pilot would not have known he was fuel critical until it was all over given that aircraft fuel guages are usually unreliable. If no landing light to go with that what chance would he have had out in the bush on a dark night to force land? None I would suggest.

[Sunfish]

However fitting landing lights could be seen by CASA as intention to break the law.

[RadioSaigon]

However fitting landing lights could be seen by CASA as intention to break the law.

Crikey! I hope not.

Far rather it were perceived as an effort to comply effectively with the principle of “see and be seen”!!!

[Sunfish]

I’m just being flippant radiosaigon.

[cowl flaps]

However fitting landing lights could be seen by CASA as intention to break the law.
Exactly what I thought.

[cowl flaps]

Why were they flying so close to last light or after it? RAAus aircraft are allowed to fly day VFR only regardless what equipment or lights are fitted.
Agree.
Regardless of whether a pilot has an RAAus licence,- a PPL, CPL, or whatever,- surely common sense must come into their flight planning calculations.

[Sunfish]

I don’t know enough about the aircraft or it’s fuel system. I would like to understand about useable and unusable quantities and the possibility of sucking air at nose low attitudes with low fuel quantities as well as any cross feed valve fitted.

My back of the envelope fuel calculations would be about the same as Poteroo; 143nm at 92 knots about 95 minutes. About 1.6 hrs at 20 lph - 32l., 10l statutory half hour reserve. 5 - 10l start, taxi and faffing about, makes 47 - 52l required without a climb fuel computation........And that’s before you add your own personal reserve for mum and the kids. Poteroo estimates he could have taken up to 80l.
, in which case there should have been between at least 10 to 40l. in the tanks on landing.

[Once Were Warriors]

With respect to the type of aircraft involved, Sunfish and Squawk 7700, it has everything to do with it. Statistically ‘amateur’ built aircraft are three times more likely than GA aircraft to be involved in an accident. Further, injury and fatalities are five times more likely in an amateur built aircraft compared to a GA aircraft if involved in an accident.

[Squawk7700]

I'm not aware of any similar GA accidents recently.

How about this one?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-069/

[Vag277]

Once were warriors

If you are going to quote "statistics" provide your data source. It should also be noted that the Brumby is not amateur built and build status is not a causal factor.

[LeadSled]

If you are going to quote "statistics" provide your data source. It should also be noted that the Brumby is not amateur built and build status is not a causal factor.
Folks,
I would add: The Brumby model in question is one of the most thoroughly tested small aircraft around today ---- anywhere ---- regardless of its nominal design/certification category.
Test flying, in the hands of a highly respected and experienced REAL test pilot went well beyond the minimum requirements of an LSA, indeed well beyond the minimum requirements of FAR 23.
Or, put another way, if I was a buyer for an LSA ---- that would be my choice, based on a detailed engineering/aerodynamic assessment.
Tootle pip!!

[mcoates]

Folks,
I would add: The Brumby model in question is one of the most thoroughly tested small aircraft around today ---- anywhere ---- regardless of its nominal design/certification category.
Test flying, in the hands of a highly respected and experienced REAL test pilot went well beyond the minimum requirements of an LSA, indeed well beyond the minimum requirements of FAR 23.
Or, put another way, if I was a buyer for an LSA ---- that would be my choice, based on a detailed engineering/aerodynamic assessment.
Tootle pip!!


It's all about documentation and certification, many manufacturers make these claims but very few have the certification paperwork to back up the claims.

The aircraft is an LSA and therefore it is approved upon a statement of compliance from the manufacturer.

Very few LSA aircraft manufacturers have ever been audited by a national CAA to the FAA standard.

How do I know this ? because I went through a two-week FAA audit to validate the FAA form 8130 – 15 which is the US certification statement from the manufacturer.

Knowing what goes into these audits I doubt anyone in Australia has seen anything close to this level of interrogation and validation.

Now, despite the claims above, (which are made by a person who is passionate about a particular manufacturer) if the aircraft has exceeded all of these requirements then it would be appropriate to have it certified in a higher category as well as LSA because it would increase sales. I

t really does annoy me that some people make all of these claims about some aircraft, a classic was XYZ aircraft who for years said "ours is the safest aircraft in the sky because despite all the crashes we have never had a fatality"..... say what ?

Nothing can replace full certification, an LSA manufacturer can get away with whatever it wants until it comes time for an audit and then they have to validate their statement of compliance. If they can't validate their statement of compliance then the aircraft get taken down to a lesser category like amateur built.

Most of the LSA manufacturers do a great job, they are responsible and passionate about what they are doing but there are some (I am referring outside of Australia in this case) that don't have a clue and I just selling what they can, while they can.

[Centaurus]

Talking about the Brumby LSA. Has the official report on the Terry Otway Brumby accident north of Penfield, Victoria, been published yet?.

[machtuk]

Talking about the Brumby LSA. Has the official report on the Terry Otway Brumby accident north of Penfield, Victoria, been published yet?.

That Was very tragic, I knew Terry a little, nice guy, around 80 years old, very keen flyer. The low wing Brunby had previous A/P problems I believe, might have had something to do with the accident, we may never know -:( I know of another high wing Brumby (same as accident A/C) that the owner has had lots of trouble with it since new, wouldn't get me in one of them but seems like this sad accident was straight pilot error?

[LeadSled]

It's all about documentation and certification, many manufacturers make these claims but very few have the certification paperwork to back up the claims.

Funnily enough, I do know that!!

The aircraft is an LSA and therefore it is approved upon a statement of compliance from the manufacturer.

And that!!

Very few LSA aircraft manufacturers have ever been audited by a national CAA to the FAA standard.

Obviously, because of the two points above!!

How do I know this ? because I went through a two-week FAA audit to validate the FAA form 8130 – 15 which is the US certification statement from the manufacturer.

Bully for you!!

Knowing what goes into these audits I doubt anyone in Australia has seen anything close to this level of interrogation and validation.

But nobody claimed they had, which is, in any case, not relevant.

But, in fact, there are quite a number of Australian companies who do business via the FAA and EASA, manufacturing business,(OEM, PMA and STC) and know all about compliance and audit standards. Indeed, in one very small and specialized area I carry a bit of FAA paper to sign off audits as required in that little corner.

Now, despite the claims above, (which are made by a person who is passionate about a particular manufacturer) if the aircraft has exceeded all of these requirements then it would be appropriate to have it certified in a higher category as well as LSA because it would increase sales.

"which are made by a person who is passionate about a particular manufacturer", ------- actually no, if I turned up down there I would probably be marched of the premises ----- but I do know a lot about the engineering design that is the basis of the structural durability, including accountability for gust loading, and also the flight test schedule and who completed it .
As for your "higher category" comment, you really know little about aircraft manufacturing, and the market in Australia, otherwise you would not make such a statement.

It really does annoy me that some people make all of these claims about some aircraft, a classic was XYZ aircraft who for years said "ours is the safest aircraft in the sky because despite all the crashes we have never had a fatality"..... say what ?

Consider yourself annoyed

Nothing can replace full certification, an LSA manufacturer can get away with whatever it wants until it comes time for an audit and then they have to validate their statement of compliance. If they can't validate their statement of compliance then the aircraft get taken down to a lesser category like amateur built.

You don't seem to know much about CASR 21, either, or the history and intent of the LSA Category, and the intent of the "consensus standard" . That being the case, you will probably be scared rigid by the new FAR Part 23, which is similarly intended to remove the current blocks to innovation and modernization of small aircraft design, at less than astronomically high and commercially untenable costs. Established by the same consensus standard process.

Most of the LSA manufacturers do a great job, they are responsible and passionate about what they are doing but there are some (I am referring outside of Australia in this case) that don't have a clue and I just selling what they can, while they can

You are entitled to your opinions, just as you are entitled to be wrong.

Tootle pip!!

[Squawk7700]

With all due respect Leadsled, you’re disagreeing with the largest and most successful importer of LSA aircraft into this country, importing the highest number of aircraft types, along with building aircraft. He also holds exclusive distributorships across the USA and many other countries for a large range of aitrcraft. You can confidently know he’s telling it as it is !

[Centaurus]

The low wing Brunby had previous A/P problems I believe, might have had something to do with the accident, we may never know –

A/P problems? Do you mean autopilot?
I understand there had been an instance of the Brumby aileron control column jamming full over discovered when a pilot at Penfield was conducting his before takeoff drill. Third hand info only. After all this time I have yet to see an ATSB input report; if any

[machtuk]

A/P problems? Do you mean autopilot?
I understand there had been an instance of the Brumby aileron control column jamming full over discovered when a pilot at Penfield was conducting his before takeoff drill. Third hand info only. After all this time I have yet to see an ATSB input report; if any


Yes Autopilot and that's exactly what happened, whether it had any influence on the said accident we may never know?

[Sunfish]

Squawk: With all due respect Leadsled, you’re disagreeing with the largest and most successful importer of LSA aircraft into this country, importing the highest number of aircraft types, along with building aircraft. He also holds exclusive distributorships across the USA and many other countries for a large range of aitrcraft. You can confidently know he’s telling it as it is !


http://vocasupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Smith-and-Guthrie-Finding-Final.pdf

[mostlytossas]

Well after reading the Coroners report above I'll be sticking with GA aircraft thanks.
As for the comments about Mr Coates I am speechless!

[Squawk7700]

As for the comments about Mr Coates I am speechless!

So am I. It’s like they were written by a journalist with no idea about aviation. I mean how much maintenance would you do in a hundred hours of ownership anyway! That chap continued to fly the aircraft when the vibration was so bad, you couldn’t read the numbers on the instruments, until one day the crank shaft broke.

[mostlytossas]

I see the Coroners report that I referred to has quickly been removed. I can understand why that would not want to be out for ppruners if you were involved in it in any way.
Was written by the coroner not a journalist.

[LeadSled]

With all due respect Leadsled, you’re disagreeing with the largest and most successful importer of LSA aircraft into this country, importing the highest number of aircraft types, along with building aircraft. He also holds exclusive distributorships across the USA and many other countries for a large range of aitrcraft. You can confidently know he’s telling it as it is !

Squawk7700,
That being the case, the views he has expressed, or the way he has expressed them, is all the more surprising to me.
Based on experience, I have greater faith in the structural durability and the in-flight behavior of said aircraft, than quite a number of imports. Particularly the low speed handling. And I have seen a couple of structural shockers amongst LSA.
Tootle pip!!

[Lookleft]

A bit said all around really. Two die in an aircraft accident and the discussion has degenerated into an argument about who knows more about the certification of LSA.

[mcoates]

The intent of my comments was not to incite debate about anything other than the continual comments from some segments that their aircraft is the strongest in the world, "if I was going to crash it is going to be the most survivable etc."

The only thing that wins in an accident is gravity, there is no getting around this any way whatsoever. In the case of this accident it is pointless saying it is the strongest aircraft ever built because gravity proved otherwise. It just doesn't add any value to the conversation or to the readers experience.

I have intentionally not entered into the debate about standards and certifications because again it adds no value and it only makes you a target for some keyboard warrior who knows more than you do.

To summarise my intentions about making comment, the accident is truly a great loss, I was speaking to people yesterday at the airport who knew the pilot quite well and nothing about this accident gels on their experience about him and his flying decisions. He was locally well respected, very experienced and current.

To look at photos of a crumpled wreck, and then start talking about how it is the strongest plane ever built do nothing for the conversation, gravity won this and nearly every other battle !

[poteroo]

It appears from the pics in Sport Pilot - October 2018 that this particular Brumby 610 did not have landing lights, nav lights or strobes/beacons fitted. Neither was it legally or operationally required to. The 'green' light which a ground observer claimed to see from this aircraft may well have been off the EFIS or GPS screens during a turn. These screens can have the backlighting pilot adjusted for any light situation. Some EFIS and GPS are not NVMC approved, regardless of how great they look.

My identical model 610 is fitted with a large LED landing light fitted to the nosewheel strut, which is specifically for in circuit / training area visibility. We also have top and bottom fuselage red LED lights for the same reason and for the taxying part of each flight. All lights are ON from go to whoa.

[Desert Flower]

It appears from the pics in Sport Pilot - October 2018 that this particular Brumby 610 did not have landing lights, nav lights or strobes/beacons fitted. Neither was it legally or operationally required to. The 'green' light which a ground observer claimed to see from this aircraft may well have been off the EFIS or GPS screens during a turn. These screens can have the backlighting pilot adjusted for any light situation. Some EFIS and GPS are not NVMC approved, regardless of how great they look.

My identical model 610 is fitted with a large LED landing light fitted to the nosewheel strut, which is specifically for in circuit / training area visibility. We also have top and bottom fuselage red LED lights for the same reason and for the taxying part of each flight. All lights are ON from go to whoa.

Aircraft definitely had nav lights, I know this for certain because it flew very low right in front of my house as I was trying to explain to him how to turn the lights on.

DF.

[Squawk7700]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/3100084f_11fc_47b6_a86c_fd8de49a6c19_0be5740977de609fab22042 5638366ff23c1ec0f.png

If it looks like a nav light and it lights up green, then it probably is !

[Desert Flower]

If it looks like a nav light and it lights up green, then it probably is !

Absolutely!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Not sure what the syllabus is for RAA..we are ALL taught how to perform a 180 under the hood to prevent losing control after inadvertantly entering IMC in cloud. What we are lacking is we are NOT taught how to get on the ground after last light. Arguing the toss on busting last light because of poor judgement/weather constraint is immaterial! Maybe, what we should be pushing for is competency in night circuits. My first school urged us to do night circuit training, including landing with no lights using the flarepath only. Would this type of training have saved a couple of lives?

[Lead Balloon]

In the USA, night flying is an integral part of private pilot licence proficiency requirements and there’s no specific night rating or endorsement. But what would the Yanks know about aviation.

Whether that proficiency would have made any difference in this case probably depends on whether or not the fuel ran out before the PAL (or flares) were activated.

[mcoates]

Or, replicate the training system in the USA where a PPL allows you to fly have a night-time. They have no night endorsement because it is part of a regular PPL. You can never be over trained (unless you are married)

[Desert Flower]

In the USA, night flying is an integral part of private pilot licence proficiency requirements and there’s no specific night rating or endorsement. But what would the Yanks know about aviation.

Whether that proficiency would have made any difference in this case probably depends on whether or not the fuel ran out before the PAL (or flares) were activated.

Lights were on though, as I've stated several times. Which makes this accident all the more puzzling. And we no longer have flares.

DF.

[Lead Balloon]

Hi DF

I got the impression (perhaps mistaken or based on inaccurate rumour) that the runway lights were activated by the pilot of the accompanying aircraft after landing? If that’s correct (it may well not be) I surmised that the accident aircraft was still flying around in the interim, eventually in the dark, consuming fuel all the while.

Reference was made earlier to some difficulty with the PAL system. What was that difficulty?

[Squawk7700]

I wrote to the head of CASA around 7? years ago with a well crafted and formal letter that I was assisted with by Dick Smith.

The letter was in relation to NVFR forming part of the PPL syllabus and was in response to a higher than normal number of night-time crashes by un-rated PPL’s at the time, in crashes not dissimilar to this one. References were made to how CASA’s mandate is to follow the world’s best practice and how the USA include the NVFR with the PPL etc.

The official response was that the director was in caretaker mode and my request would be actioned as soon as the new head took over.

Nothing but crickets since then despite two follow-up letters.

I later heard through unofficial channels that if they did try to do that, they would go out to the industry for consultation, which in this case would include half a dozen grumpy old CFI’s and that they would say it was unsafe etc, cost them money, etc etc and that it would never go ahead.

I have since noted / read that the USA has a disproportionately high number of NVFR accidents in comparison with Australia in terms of hours flown at night under the NVFR. I then wondered if in fact it was a good idea in the first place.

[mostlytossas]

Currency is everything in aviation. Whether that be NVFR, IFR, or just basic day VFR in a C150.

[Lead Balloon]

Source of data for the “disproportionately high number”, please Squawk.

[machtuk]

Possible scenario:
Pilot finds that whilst en-route his ETA is not quite what he had expected, wondering about his fuel Qty left the whole time. Flying SE means the view ahead is rapidly getting dull. Arrives overhead now very worried, nervous & feeling rather silly. Can't get the Rwy lights activated whilst flying around in what would be considered a very strange environment. Flying at night in the outback is not for the faint hearted. Numerous turns to stay close the airfield has left the pilot almost disorientated. Swiss cheese holes starting to line up now. 1. low fuel to the point of being unknown. 2. Night time, very dark, never done this before. 3. Very anxious can't seem to get the lights activated all the time trying to keep the plane upright. 4. Now very disorientated, very nervous, passenger now adding to his concerns by becoming also very upset. 5. Fuel finally runs out, desperate Mayday call. The holes have now lined up perfectly.. Their world is now very frightening, quiet, almost surreal, fighting the plane as it loses energy in the dark the compass starts moving alarming fast, the wind noise is increasing, the heart rate is fast, eyeballs almost out stretched looking for a single light, feeling for the ground out there somewhere in the inky black darkness....suddenly it ends...…….tragedy has claimed two lives....RIP

The above is a typical scenario possibly not actually this one but similar?
I can only hope others may learn something of their demise:-(

[Squawk7700]

Source of data for the “disproportionately high number”, please Squawk.

From almost 7 years ago? My memory isn’t that good!

[LeadSled]

A bit said all around really. Two die in an aircraft accident and the discussion has degenerated into an argument about who knows more about the certification of LSA.
Lookleft,
Can't help yourself, can you??
The ONLY reason for my comments is that I think it is highly improbable that the aircraft certification was a factor in this accident.
Tootle pip!!

[CaptainMidnight]

I seem to recall that after the new airport was built, up till sometime in the mid 1990's night VFR ops were not permitted at all. Then the current procedures were developed and published in ERSA.

FLIGHT PROCEDURES

1. Right Hand circuits RQ when OPR on RWY 02 and RWY 29.

2. RWY 02/20- Night TKOF and LDG are not permitted.

3. Night VFR OPS approved under the FLW mandatory conditions:

WX COND at the time must meet the night VMC requirements. Circuit ALT must not be less than 2,050FT. OPS under night VFR COND are only permitted on RWY 11/29. Circling and circuits must be kept WI 3NM of either THR. DEP ACFT must FLW the circuit direction and remain WI 3NM until reaching LSALT for the first TR. DEP ACFT must use full length of the RWY- INT DEP are not permitted for night OPS. ARR ACFT must MNTN LSALT until positively established WI 3NM and then descend to not less than 2,050FT until turning base for LDG. This base position must be kept WI 3NM of the THR.

4. RWY 11/29- IFR CAT ACFT LDG HN are not to descend BLW 1,950FT unless established on AT-VASIS, or on final approach.

[601]

I remember being told by a very Senior Examiner (remember them) that soon after NVFR was introduced he had to do a flight test for the issue of the NVFR departing from an outback town.
On the flight test the take-off, towards a well lit town was normal. As soon as they entered what would be downwind for departure, he had to recover the aircraft three times before calling the test off and landing.

As soon as the applicant lost sight of the town lights, he had no outside visual reference in what was a moonless night and could not keep the aircraft straight in a climb.
To make matters worst, the occasional lights from homesteads merged with the stars.

[aroa]

What about an out landing before dark so you can see what yr doing.. Better to be on the ground having a brew by the campfire...even if the a/c is damaged in the process..or not.
Ive always reckoned that outlandings.. as in gliding are very useful training. And having had to land on a narrow road as opposed to yr usual big wide runway sure makes you want to get it right. Next time around , not so traumatic as you have had previous experience.
In the good old days the 'forced landing' actually was one...unless yr selection was obviously not a good choice. Watch out the sheep !!

[poteroo]

Aircraft definitely had nav lights, I know this for certain because it flew very low right in front of my house as I was trying to explain to him how to turn the lights on.

DF.

Whoops! You are 100% correct DF and others. Off to ophthalmologist for poteroo.

[bront]

I remember being told by a very Senior Examiner (remember them) that soon after NVFR was introduced he had to do a flight test for the issue of the NVFR departing from an outback town.
On the flight test the take-off, towards a well lit town was normal. As soon as they entered what would be downwind for departure, he had to recover the aircraft three times before calling the test off and landing.

As soon as the applicant lost sight of the town lights, he had no outside visual reference in what was a moonless night and could not keep the aircraft straight in a climb.
To make matters worst, the occasional lights from homesteads merged with the stars.

That obviously wasn't NVFR then as there wasn't a discernable horizon.

[Squawk7700]

That obviously wasn't NVFR then as there wasn't a discernable horizon.

Is a discernible horizon a legal requirement for NVFR?

A friend got his very recently and did a few trips in a complete black hole for some 80 or more miles!

[poteroo]

That obviously wasn't NVFR then as there wasn't a discernable horizon.

It was called a Class 4 Instrument rating back in the 70s, and there was a requirement for the pilot to demonstrate good instrument flying skills. Each navaid had to be passed separately.... the usual was ADF or VOR.

[machtuk]

It was called a Class 4 Instrument rating back in the 70s, and there was a requirement for the pilot to demonstrate good instrument flying skills. Each navaid had to be passed separately.... the usual was ADF or VOR.

I recall getting my Class 4 back a 100 years ago when I was not so wise. The examiner on the night of my test flight (a DOT guy) said it's the most dangerous rating you can acquire, he was right about that, it's a very high risk activity with minimal training required to get the ticket, worse than IMC in some ways when in the outback! No horizon & a moonless night with total cloud cover was bloody scary! After a few flights a long time ago at night where I was concentrating so much I didn't enjoy it I never did it again under those conditions. It's one of the skills where it needs to be practised a lot.

[VH-MLE]

Going back to the Coroner's report into the two gentlemen that were tragically killed (originally posted by Sunfish), was curious as to why it was removed? Did Sunfish remove it or was it done by the Moderator(s)? It did not read well for Mr Coates, however what I found unusual was that there was no official letterhead on that document indicating Coroner's Office etc, hence was it a legitimate document?

[Squawk7700]

Going back to the Coroner's report into the two gentlemen that were tragically killed (originally posted by Sunfish), was curious as to why it was removed? Did Sunfish remove it or was it done by the Moderator(s)? It did not read well for Mr Coates, however what I found unusual was that there was no official letterhead on that document indicating Coroner's Office etc, hence was it a legitimate document?

Probably removed because it was not relevant to this thread and also as you say, with no letterhead it could have been fabricated by anyone. From memory it came about from someone making lots of vexatious allegations that were later proven to be false.

There seems to be a lot of those types of people in the aviation world and it usually stems from jealousy!

[Desert Flower]

Hi DF

I got the impression (perhaps mistaken or based on inaccurate rumour) that the runway lights were activated by the pilot of the accompanying aircraft after landing? If that’s correct (it may well not be) I surmised that the accident aircraft was still flying around in the interim, eventually in the dark, consuming fuel all the while.

Reference was made earlier to some difficulty with the PAL system. What was that difficulty?

I don't know whether the accompanying aircraft got the lights on before he landed or after, but the bottom line is they were definitely on while the accident aircraft was still airborne. I believe the only difficulty with the PAL system was finger trouble - i.e. he was probably keying the mic too quick. It's happened many times over the years.

DF.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I wrote to the head of CASA around 7? years ago with a well crafted and formal letter that I was assisted with by Dick Smith. The letter was in relation to NVFR forming part of the PPL syllabus and was in response to a higher than normal number of night-time crashes by un-rated PPL’s at the time, in crashes not dissimilar to this one. References were made to how CASA’s mandate is to follow the world’s best practice and how the USA include the NVFR with the PPL etc.
The official response was that the director was in caretaker mode and my request would be actioned as soon as the new head took over. Nothing but crickets since then despite two follow-up letters.
I later heard through unofficial channels that if they did try to do that, they would go out to the industry for consultation, which in this case would include half a dozen grumpy old CFI’s and that they would say it was unsafe etc, cost them money, etc etc and that it would never go ahead.
I have since noted / read that the USA has a disproportionately high number of NVFR accidents in comparison with Australia in terms of hours flown at night under the NVFR. I then wondered if in fact it was a good idea in the first place.

I did my Class 4 Instrument Rating (ie NVFR) (Yes, I am that old!) back in the 70's.
My test was conducted on a very smoking night with no visible horizon, essentially IFR, and ended with a partial panel leg, for real, after the vac pump failed about half way between Moree and Warwick for a landing with a kerosene flare path. I subsequently did quite a bit of NVFR in western Qld including a number of Longreach - Toowoomba trips. Also did a bit in NZ.

The key to safe and successful NVFR is:

Be properly trained
Be adequate experienced
Be current
Follow the rules

By the time I had completed my UPPL and Class 4 IR, I could fly around quite happily on instruments and even partial panel, and intercept and track the VOR and ADF (That probably saved my life on at least one occassion).

As I understand it, the requirements for instrument flight time for an UPPL, or whatever it is called these days, have been significantly reduced. Mind you, some still smacked in back then, but I suspect there was much more NVFR being conducted back then than there is today.

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks DF

It was Obidiah’s post at #28 that had me thinking there might be more to it than finger trouble:Leigh Creek PAL has been problematic for well over a year, most of my arrivals result in orbiting over the top repeatedly trying to get them on and often someone on the ground has to turn them on.In any event, it’s an awful situation in which to be attempting one’s first night landing.

[Desert Flower]

Thanks DF

It was Obidiah’s post at #28 that had me thinking there might be more to it than finger trouble:In any event, it’s an awful situation in which to be attempting one’s first night landing.

There have been a few times when it has failed that was not due to finger trouble. There have been a couple of times that the RFDS has had trouble, but only when flying one particular aircraft in their fleet from what I can gather. Why that would be I have no idea. I can vividly remember having to assist in the laying of a flare path for the RFDS on one freezing June night many years ago though!

DF.

[Lead Balloon]

You should write a book, DF! (Seriously)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I once had trouble with the lights at Charters Towers - Qantas International passing overhead soon fixed that !

[Lead Balloon]

You should write a book, too, Forkie!

[Desert Flower]

You should write a book, DF! (Seriously)

I have thought about it, & often wish I'd kept a diary. Trouble is, I would have to change quite a lot of names to protect the guilty! ;)

DF.

[27/09]

If you've never used a PAL system before, the triggering of them can be hit and miss, most people click on the transmit button too quickly. Once you are familiar with the system it works very well.

I'm not familiar with the requirements in Oz but on this side of the ditch a "night rating " requires a minimum of 5 hours of dual training, including circuits and away from the field flying. In addition to this training the student must also have had 5 hours of basic IF training.to prepare them for situations where there is no horizon. There is also a currency requirement to have made 3 take off and landings by night or have a dual check before you can exercise the night priviledges carrying passengers.

[Desert Flower]

If you've never used a PAL system before, the triggering of them can be hit and miss, most people click on the transmit button too quickly.

That is precisely what happens with the PAL system here. And from what I have been told not all PAL systems are the same when it comes to activating them.

DF.

[YPJT]

There are basically two methods which ERSA describes in a very long winded way. Where a PAL is on the same frequency as the CTAF it is one second on, one second off. When the PAL is on its own frequency it is normally 3 seconds on and 1 second off.
As I alluded to earlier, what can be really stressful even if you are sure that you are keying the correct tx sequence is that no confirmation message is being transmitted from the unit. Not fun flying to a location in the dark and not knowing if you have lights until you're visual with the field. Leigh Creek has one such unit. The only saving grace being that there is a flashing beacon that is visible for quite a ways out on a clear night. From memory though, the flashing (rotation) interval on the beacon is not as per the published 6 seconds. Might be time for a bit of maintenance of the system out there.

[Okihara]

With the amount of sunshine we're getting, wouldn't fluorescent lights or even paint be an acceptable backup to PAL units in remote airstrips?

[machtuk]

With the amount of sunshine we're getting, wouldn't fluorescent lights or even paint be an acceptable backup to PAL units in remote airstrips?


RWY lights are not only for the illumination of the physical location and dimension of the Rwy they are there so the pilot can position themselves in the circuit to complete the various legs of a circuit, reflective lights are of no use unless lights are shone directly on the paint. In order to define the Rwy edge with reflective paint or other medium one would need very powerful landing lights, then there is the manuvering area that also needs to be illuminated.

[Desert Flower]

There are basically two methods which ERSA describes in a very long winded way. Where a PAL is on the same frequency as the CTAF it is one second on, one second off. When the PAL is on its own frequency it is normally 3 seconds on and 1 second off.
As I alluded to earlier, what can be really stressful even if you are sure that you are keying the correct tx sequence is that no confirmation message is being transmitted from the unit. Not fun flying to a location in the dark and not knowing if you have lights until you're visual with the field. Leigh Creek has one such unit. The only saving grace being that there is a flashing beacon that is visible for quite a ways out on a clear night. From memory though, the flashing (rotation) interval on the beacon is not as per the published 6 seconds. Might be time for a bit of maintenance of the system out there.

YLEC lights work best when you do it this way: (key mic) count one and two and three and (release mic) count off and two and three and, then repeat twice more.

From memory that beacon flash is 9 seconds. As far as a bit of maintenance on the system then perhaps you should contact the aerodrome owners (Outback Areas) & voice your concerns. If enough people complain (especially RFDS pilots) then maybe something will get done.

I had a phone call from one member of Outback Areas a few days ago who was checking up on how I was feeling after Saturday night, & in the course of our conversation I mentioned about my husband going out there & doing roo runs before the RFDS aircraft landed at night. He didn't see why that was necessary, until I told him how many roos hubby had chased off in just one night alone - he gave up counting after 30!

DF.

DF.

[Lead Balloon]

As YPJT said, ERSA says the beacon flashes at 6 second intervals, not 9. Potentially confusing.

I was going to observe that if infrastructure investment is a good way to stimulate the economy, I can nominate a thousand or so aerodromes that are crying out for maintenance and upgrade. But then I reflected on the fact that a bit of fog at Sydney still creates chaos across almost the entirety of the airways, and that if Australia lacks the smarts and capacity to upgrade a capital city airport to first world standards it’s no wonder that so many aerodromes are in the condition they are.

[outlandishoutlanding]

To put that another way, I do not consider my training as a GA pilot makes me somehow safer than a similarly motivated RAA pilot.

I was originally an RAA pilot, and now am GA/GFA only.

My training as a GA pilot does make me safer - I've done NVFR and PIFR training. What RAA pilot does those?

[Squawk7700]

I was originally an RAA pilot, and now am GA/GFA only.

My training as a GA pilot does make me safer - I've done NVFR and PIFR training. What RAA pilot does those?

Plenty!

Because many do the reverse of what you did. Raaus is full of ex-airline and commercial pilots.

[Centaurus]

Does the Brumby have an artificial horizon? Although these are VFR aircraft it is certainly wise for pilots to be familiar with whatever blind flying instruments are installed in case they are suddenly needed.
While some LSA have quite sophisticated Garmin type EFIS, there may be a tendency for pilots to be experts at dialing in GPS and other you beaut-features, but no clues on basic instrument flying skills.

[Sunfish]

If you have an EFIS then for about another 2kg. you have a pretty good autopilot

[redned]

Thats a broad brush statement.Im a retired airline pilot with 23,000 hours and fly RAA.Quite a few of us do for all sorts of reasons.

[PoppaJo]

I fly RA but not GA and regularly get the attitude out and about. According to the GA Pilots I am some inexperienced dangerous some nobody pilot. The young flight instructors are usually the worst, totally cocky. Until I let them know I’ve got 20,000 Airbus hours and growing. They usually pipe down at that point.

[Ixixly]

PoppaJo, having 20,000 Airbus does not make one a good GA Pilot just as having 20,000hours GA wouldn't make one a good Airbus pilot

[poteroo]

Does the Brumby have an artificial horizon? Although these are VFR aircraft it is certainly wise for pilots to be familiar with whatever blind flying instruments are installed in case they are suddenly needed.
While some LSA have quite sophisticated Garmin type EFIS, there may be a tendency for pilots to be experts at dialing in GPS and other you beaut-features, but no clues on basic instrument flying skills.

It depends on how the aircraft is customised. A few are steam with no attitude, but most of those that I've seen are EFIS equipped. Some have really good stuff too. But, the problem with the RAAus system is that there is no requirement for any IF. That doesn't stop CFIs with GA quals from doing some real life IF with their students, particularly when they get up to cross-country training. With a Dynon EFIS, and analog basics around it, my Brumby 610 allows for some reasonable 'IF' exposure. If students have been trained from scratch in attitude x power flying, and it's well correlated to the instrument presentation, then they are better able to cope with a little basic IF.

My experience has been that, with the above IF exposure, they very easily convert to the RPL IF in a analog C172.

[Bend alot]

An emergency PAL frequency (universal) that simply requires a greater than 2 second transmission to activate would be very handy.

I know of a number of activation issues for a variety of reasons and locations over the years.

[machtuk]

As they say....' A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing'
The LSA/RAAuS exists to satisfy a need for basic flight, day VMC & works well, mostly. GA is there for a much broader opportunity to fly under more challenging conditions, if needed.
It's a fine line between legal, competent and marginal. It's up to a well trained and disciplined pilot NOT to find out where his skills lie outside of proper training!
Flying IMC or at night especially in the outback takes far more discipline than a jolly in a basic machine during the day for fun!
I truly hope this sad event makes others out there think twice!

Foot note: Many Years ago not long after I obtained my Class IV rating I found myself in an uncomfortable situation at night Sth of YBDV after being unable to land at YINN, had been at the races (don't drink) due a low setting sun and a seriuosly bugged windscreen (no GPS in those days). A missed App meant I had to fly on to YBHI via Moomba. The FS guy stayed back till we landed to make sure we where safel. I was in a well equiped C210 with A/P and legal BUT I did not enjoy it, never flew again in a SE plane NVFR! The poor unfortunate pilot in the Brumby was way over his head most likely. He must have been almost terrified!

[Bend alot]

As they say....' A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing'
The LSA/RAAuS exists to satisfy a need for basic flight, day VMC & works well, mostly. GA is there for a much broader opportunity to fly under more challenging conditions, if needed.
It's a fine line between legal, competent and marginal. It's up to a well trained and disciplined pilot NOT to find out where his skills lie outside of proper training!
Flying IMC or at night especially in the outback takes far more discipline than a jolly in a basic machine during the day for fun!
I truly hope this sad event makes others out there think twice!

Foot note: Many Years ago not long after I obtained my Class IV rating I found myself in an uncomfortable situation at night Sth of YBDV after being unable to land at YINN, had been at the races (don't drink) due a low setting sun and a seriuosly bugged windscreen (no GPS in those days). A missed App meant I had to fly on to YBHI via Moomba. The FS guy stayed back till we landed to make sure we where safel. I was in a well equiped C210 with A/P and legal BUT I did not enjoy it, never flew again in a SE plane NVFR! The poor unfortunate pilot in the Brumby was way over his head most likely. He must have been almost terrified!
"Wet Season" endorsements for RA and GA - it often takes both equally.

Would certainly help night flyers, intentional or not.

[Desert Flower]

The poor unfortunate pilot in the Brumby was way over his head most likely. He must have been almost terrified!

Not to mention his poor passenger. I can only imagine what those last few moments would have been like for both of them.

DF.

[cowl flaps]

Not to mention his poor passenger. I can only imagine what those last few moments would have been like for both of them.

DF.
Absolutely.
Then, at the point he completely lost control of the aircraft,- they knew they were about to meet their maker.