no more foreign license validations?

[afronaut]

What is the deal with foreign license validations?

Is it true that SA CAA is no longer going to be issuing validations and that SA reg. aircraft will have to be flown by SA license holders? ie that foreigners would have to write the SA exams like we would have to in most parts of the world.

Could open up a few jobs for local boys (and gals), especially in the contract market.

[B Sousa]

As with most everything in the world, that may occur only as long as the demand is met. The first time a company needs experience and some pink cheek shows up with his SA CPL and 400 hours of robbie time.....Validations will be in order...
I dont know how many Pilots are operating in SA now, but Im guessing if the option went away, many companies would be taking vacation...
I have to agree that most of the world does the same thing in requiring anyone who wants to fly to get a local license....it only seems fair. Now if you can just shake the image of having to follow the UK in their approach to licensing, things will work out fine...
I have seen some of the material used to train and its complete nonsense in this day and age....

[skyraider]

Hey BS,

I have seen some of the material used to train and its complete nonsense in this day and age....

can you be a bit more specific. I am not questioning what you're saying, I'd just like to know what you mean.

I am looking into doing a JAR ATPL and then coming out to SA to finish my com. I have been told that I would need to write law and procedures to get a validation to a frozen SA CPL so I am curious to know which parts of the material you think are nonsence.

cheers
Sky

[B Sousa]

"I have been told that I would need to write law and procedures to get a validation to a frozen SA CPL so I am curious to know which parts of the material you think are nonsence. "

Sky,
not to make this a long session, but as you mentioned as to what you have to do. Thats part of the problem. Flying is not Rocket Science by any means, and one shouldnt require a Masters Degree to be licensed. Maybe Im spoiled flying on an FAA License, but after having done so for over thirty years (safely), I think that the the depth of the academic portions are far too unnecessary for the average pilot.
My thoughts.

[kuzzin]

12-14 subjects for JAR atp and 7 for SA atp...and they only validate to cpl....mugh its tuff in Africa....
not to mention USA all though the flt test is a bitch ..but so is the SA atp flt test ..now lets not talk about the JAR atp flt test..??
hoes-it
kak en betaal chom!
Greetings from ....<SPACE>

[TurboOtter]

How hard is it to do a conversion.
air Law??
Check Ride?? etc

[Petes Dragon]

I really cannot understand what the issue is. The CAA is merely starting to do what the rest of the "big names" (FAA, JAA, UKCAA, CASA - you name them) are doing.

Why should we be any different after all? Its easy, you want to fly a N-reg aircraft, you gets a FAA licence. So, now you want to fly a ZS-reg aircraft and there is huge outcry because suddenly the CAA expects you to get a SA licence. Come on.

I cannot believe that the CAA will suddenly say - all validations are not valid, get a licence. Of course this will cause operators to close down. Each pilot flying on a validation will have the choice and the opportunity to convert from a validation to a SA licence.

In this one the SACAA has my support....

[gearupgone]

All I can say is that some overseas authorities will not allow any credits from a SA licence because the SACAA has cancelled their "reciprocal" agreements. What that means for anyone leaving SA, they have to re-do EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, the SA licence no longer carries the respect it used to anyway. When getting an ATPL recently outside SA - I was not allowed to count ANY co-pilot time. I had to get a PPL, hire a C152 to get the last 10 hours I needed to get the ATPL. Even the local licencing department thought it crazy - "but thats because the SACAA won't recipricate anymore" (or co-operate as I know they would not verify my total time when asked to do so, even though I had to attach a copy of the last page of my logbook when I renewed SA licence renewal).
I feel however that if the SACAA do insist on SA licences - the contracts in the rest of Africa will go to operators from foreign countries (of which there are more and more) - or the operators will re-register their aircraft. Either way, once again SACAA money grabbing will only affect the local pilots.
Anyway - I am through with SA and the SACAA - and will hopefully NEVER have to deal with their rudness in Pretoria again.

[exjet]

Validations are part of aviation life! The issue is that they should be used correctly ie. - make use of foreigners for a prescibed time to allow local pilots to fill there places by the end of there validation period.

The tragedy is when the SACAA issue SA ATPL validations to South Africans who have Comm licences but Swazi ATPL's thereby denying qualified South Africans a job.

[Davidils20l]

So much ICAO:confused:

[Mobotu]

Now you have really opened a can of worms........

Validations are in fact just that - an appreciation and mutual understanding that you have the necessary qualifications to undertake the task of piloting an aircraft. They are not and were never intended to be used as some form of political football of the various Civil Aviation Authorities.
The are naturally three main categories of which one can argue their point: 1 - Foreign pilots wishing to operate inside a country using that countries reg ie ZS within RSA 2 - Foreign pilots wishing to operate outside a country while using their reg AND AOC ie ZS UN/DHL 3 - Foreign pilots wishing to operate outside a country using their reg but NOT their AOC ie AMI lease

For the first - logic suggests that this be limited to occasions where no 'local' pilot can be sourced with the necessary qualifications/experience. ie Maun
For the second - (the most debatable of all) could in fact be argued by the AOC's Government department of labour as requiring a work visa/nationality. The salaries/conditions offered by some operators can cause jelousy amongst pilots in their search for that ellusive airline job.
For the final case - refusing to grant a validation in this case could lead to the lessor sourcing aircraft elsewhere in more 'accepting' countries.

Some countries have tightened the issue of validations in recent years ie RSA 'Not because of the large number of foreign pilots seeking work in Africa - but rather the number of RSA pilots who hold foreign licences' - (DCA Pretoria "Name Withheld").
The idea of requiring potential pilots to undetake Air Law and Procedures and a Flight Test is in fact to establish if their original licence and experience is real or imagined. Although annoying to 3000+ hour pilots to undertake - you must have one rule for all.

Presenting 3C/3D/9Q........licences to civil aviation Pretoria and receiving the SA equivalent in under 5 minutes as was the case previously is not in fact responsible or fair to diligent pilots who have undertaken expensive training to obtain their qualifications.
By contrast it would also not be fair to require foreign pilots to undertake full examinations in order to close the loop hole that RSA citizens are exploiting and risk loosing business to other countries for leasing aircraft companies.

As I said at the beginning - 'A Can of Worms' - various civil aviation bodies and departments of labour are only now beginning to look at this problem as globalisation begins to take effect.

Your comments on this subject are invited.:rolleyes:

[126.9]

I don't know where that idea of the UK only issuing validations up to CPL came from, but it is a load of hog. I personally held a UK ATPL validation prior to getting my JAA licence. Under the JAR-FCL, they are allowed some discretion, as you'll see from this quote which I cut from the JAA (http://www.jaa.nl) website.

There is also a clause in the JAA regulations concerning the validation of a non-JAA State licence. This is a discretionary act on behalf of the State in the JAA that the licence holder approaches, and provided the basic licence remains valid the validation can last for a period not exceeding one year. The current text on the regulation of validations is found under JAR-FCL 1.015(b).

[Petes Dragon]

Mobuto,

You know, you are are really nailing is down. The issue that is still hanging in the air, is the worth of the SACAA license after the license scam two years ago and what the CAA is doing to repair the damage caused.

The second issue, is what is the CAA doing to actively negotiate with other aviation authorities on the issue of reciprocal recognition of aviation qaulifications.

I would love to get hold of a UKCAA/JAA license which is equivalent to mine, but the expense is too much for me. I do not believe that the standard expected from our CAA is that much lower than that expected from the UKCAA/JAA, as the syllabi are very similar.

It all goes about credibility, and it seems as if our CAA prefers to take the easy way out instead of fighting for the value of the license they issue. This should cut both ways, as in theory mutual recognition between the SACAA and e.g. the JAA could allow for acceptance of a current license with maybe just the local Airlaw and a flight test.

However, I still stand by my viewpoint that license holders from countries (e.g. FAA) that expect a full license before being allowed to fly there, should be treated the same way.

[V1 Rotate]

In the US it is impossible to obtain a Green Card which is a pre-requisit to working as a pilot. One can validate to PPL only. They simply will not allow any foreign pilots to work even though there is a terrible shortage of expierienced pilots.
How come foreigners are allowed to come and fly in SA??

V1 Rotate:cool:

[exjet]

I come back to my point, why validate SA pilots who hold foreign licences and where unable to pass a SA ATP licence in the first instance while correctly licenced and rated pilots are sitting without work

These guys revalidate each year and are flying in SA at the moment. In Europe, Canada and the States this would never be allowed - it becomes more apparent why our licences become more worthless every day.

If need be, allow the validation for a year but then if you intend to continue making use of the priviledges of that licence - write the exams.

[JJflyer]

V1 rotate

Long before 911 day it was possible for a foreign national to work in US with out that magic green crad, provided that a company was willing to sponsor a visa. This has drastically changed.

You ask why so many foreign pilots come to Africa to work. At the same token I have to ask you why so many RSA pilots work in Europe and Australia... Don´t answer I know:( . Reasons are various. For me Africa gave what I wanted, a lot of flying. Actually as much as I could endure in a very short time. I think that labour should be able to freely move to countries where there is a shortage of professionals in that field. You mention that US has a shortage of pilots. This is not entirely correct.

As some airlines are furloughing pilots there is a supply of qualified and experienced pilots available to take positions. Some pilots retain their seniority and can expect to be recalled when situation improves. Some companies require a pilot resign his seniority before hiring him or her. Should a pilot want to continue to fly, it forces hiom or her to look for entry level companies that do allow one to keep his or her seniority. Thus even the entry level jobs have enough applicants without the need to hire non US green card holder or to offer work visas.

[masseygrad]

Afronaut,

I was told by the lady who deals with foreign license validations, at the CAA in PTA a few days ago, that they are considering no longer giving validations, but that if that happens it will be "at least a year or two away'.

[Kep Ten Jim]

So what happens in my case? I did all my flight training, exams and flight tests in South Africa and flew there for a number of years on an ATPL. Since 1980 I have been living elsewhere, flying on foreign licences (all issued on the basis of my SA ATPL)

I still have my expired SA licence; I'm under the impression that to fly in SA now, I would have to do everything over again?

[Petes Dragon]

I might have some good news that will clear this issue up, until the next guy applies for a validation....

I attended a meeting at the CAA where this issue was discussed. The following was learned....

1. The CAA is in the process of negotiating reciprocal agreements with various CAA's for licensing purposes. This means that license holders from countries which have a reciprocal agreement with the SACAA woould/could be issued a SA license on the strength of their loacl license.

2. As this process is obviously going to take some time, validations will still be issued and renewed on an annual basis, based on a valid medical. All validations will only be issued after passing the Airlaw and Procedures exam and a flight test.

If there are any further questions on this issue, contact the Head of the CAA Flight Operations Department (Gerry Broberg) or the head of licensing (Hannelie Oosthuisen).

Hope this helps.

[4HolerPoler]

Kep Ten Jim, as far as I know you're correct; if you allow your licence to expire for more than five years you lose all facilities of that licence; if the licence is expired for longer than two years (I think) you will be required to write an Air Law exam (and obviously do the medical & flight test). This is not specific to the SACAA; the same or similar ruling applies to JAA licences.

4HP